Ohio CCW laws

[Tayta_Mayne]

Okay so I have a friend that claims that in Ohio you have to unload your weapon into the threat in a self defense shooting. No matter how it happens or how many rounds your gun holds. This makes no sense to me at all. I have always been trained to shoot until the threat is over and stop. He says if I were to shoot someone twice center mass and stop them that I would go to jail for sure. In other words that I have to make sure and put all eleven goldots into the threat even if he's on the ground already because I'm not a doctor and he could still be a threat. I would just really like to here your thoughts on this. Especially anyone that lives in Ohio.

[claymore1500]

your friend is wrong.

[ChuckS]

This makes no sense to me at all.
You already know the answer to your question.:cool:

Your training is good...his sucks.:barf:

Where did your friend get his information? the internet? :eek:

[Kreyzhorse]

Your friend is wrong.

Sounds like he picked up some gun shop wisdom and can't tell BS from reality.

[LordTio3]

Your friend is so wrong that it baffles me.

Not only is he wrong that you have to unload your weapon in to an assailant, but consider this...

A man comes at you with a knife. You shoot him twice center mass and he falls to the ground. He throws his knife away and yells, "Okay man, okay!"

If you shoot him again, and there are witnesses, you could be charged with murder. He was no longer a threat to you. And you killed him regardless.
___________________________________________________

You'll soon discover this good rule-of-thumb, but I'll share it with you anyway.

"In the firearms community, like nearly all others, those who deal in absolutes (i.e. always, never, best, worst, no matter what, etc...) generally possess opinions heavy with prejudice, short-sightedness, and misinformation."

If you ask a legitimate question about firearms or ballistics, among the tidal wave of answers and opinions you receive, there are two words that should immediately make your ears perk up: "It depends..." Because it almost always does. Nothing is absolute. There is no "best/worst/always/never". There is only more or less appropriate given a specific set of circumstances.

But you are right. Your friend is so wrong it hurts my brain.

~LT

[Tayta_Mayne]

I know, I know. He took his ccw classes at buckey outdoors. I made the same argument that you are crossing the line from defense to murder if someone is downed. I just had to post this because we got in a seriously heated convo over this. He swears that every time he asked them about it they said empty your gun or you will go to prison. It makes sense if your truly terrified that you may unload but it's all about self control and putting rounds on target. He said that his instructors said if you have time to take two well placed shots you waited to long and it was illegal because you would therefor have had time to back away... If the instructors are really telling people this stuff I am scared that someone will really do this. This is a close friend that doesn't lie and I don't want him to do this if he ever has to use deadly force. I tried to tell him to look up the laws on self defense, not sure if he did as he said that he already did the class and that he was gonna go on what they said. If anyone has any cases of over kill self defense stories please link them so I can try to get him on the right track.

[Tayta_Mayne]

Oh and I asked if he was positive they didn't mean empty your remaining rounds from your firearm after the attack. That prompted him to tell me that an instructor told him the best thing he could do would be to stand over the attacker when the authorities arrive and repeatedly pull the trigger like you are so terrified you don't know what your doing! This really scared me. This is not a man that says things like this so it has really thrown me. I'm honestly worried he will get himself into trouble. I am going to try to get him to go to a PRO meeting with me or something.

[egor20]

My wife was in a truckjacking situation a few years ago in Virginia, she fired 2 rounds of .38 glaser's from her 5 shot revolver, One round in the chest, one in the shoulder. The BG stumbled away, and she locked herself in the truck and dialed 911.

The Commonwealths attorney didn't even waste his time to bring her in front of a Grand Jury.

The BG is doing 25 to life.


She would tell you're friend (and the people who told him his info)......

Your an "Arse"
She is a proper "Brit" of course.

EDIT: to LordTio3 comment. it was a knife he brandished, and he did drop it, not a threat after the 2 gunshots, although we heard that from bystanders, I'm not sure she gave a feces at the time.

[Kreyzhorse]

He swears that every time he asked them about it they said empty your gun or you will go to prison.

When I took my class, my instructor basically said off the record, "shoot until the guy is down and leave big nasty holes so the guy can't get up and the threat is ended." In other words, don't stop shooting until the guy isn't moving and you are safe.

I'd guess his instuctor was attempting to say the same thing but at some point your buddy got his wires crossed up.

[LordTio3]

That prompted him to tell me that an instructor told him the best thing he could do would be to stand over the attacker when the authorities arrive and repeatedly pull the trigger like you are so terrified you don't know what your doing! This really scared me. This is not a man that says things like this so it has really thrown me. I'm honestly worried he will get himself into trouble. I am going to try to get him to go to a PRO meeting with me or something.

This sounds like the instructor was just speaking candidly and with a bit of sarcasm; essentially saying, "If the police came upon you and you were obviously distraught to the point of this catatonic reflex reaction, there would be little cause to charge you. The threat was obviously enough to break your consciousness from reality, it would almost certainly have been enough to warrant fear for your life."

It sounds like your friend was putting literal meaning on a bit of anecdotal humor. No self-respecting instructor would advise their students to shoot to kill, or to repetitively continue a feeble attack reaction until the authorities arrived. It almost certainly was a poor attempt at humor that your friend mistook for actual advice.

@egor20:

Many kudos sent your way on having a lady who is very capable and obviously strong-willed. The world would do well with a few more ladies, and men, like that.

__________________________________________
Story for reference:

(A man makes a call to 911)
911: 911 Emergency Response. What is the nature of your emergency?
Man: I've just caught a man breaking into my house. I shot him in my kitchen and I think he's dead. Can you send some police?
911: Okay, we've dispatched a unit and emergency medical to your address. Can you confirm that the intruder is deceased?
Man: Hang on...
...
(>BANG!<)
...
Okay, I'm sure he's dead. Now what?
911:...


^^^Joke^^^

PS: Make sure your friend doesn't read that part.

~LT

[Aguila Blanca]

There was a recent case (I don't think it has gone to trial yet) involving a pharmacist in Oklahoma (?) who shot a robber in his pharmacy. In his case, he then pursued a second robber outdoors, came back in, switched guns and unloaded the second handgun into the first robber, who was lying on the floor.

He was arrested for murder.

This case is a bit more extreme than what your friend seems to be describing, but the principle remains the same. The pharmacist claims the wounded robber was still a threat so he was justified in shooting him after he was down. The medical examiner claims the robber was incapacitated by the first shot and could not have been a threat. There was a security video, but the robber fell in front of a camera when shot so it can't be seen whether or not he was moving.

The use of deadly force for self defense is allowed by law when we are in danger. Once the threat has been ended, we are no longer authorized to use deadly force. The mantra of responsible trainers is to "Shoot until the threat is ended," not "Shoot to kill."

It really sounds like your friend's instructor was trying to teach his students to shoot to kill while playing a game to make it look like they were just overly excited and shooting "to end the threat." That, IMHO, is reprehensible. But then he made it worse by telling them (if, in fact, he did) that "if you don't empty your weapon you'll go to prison."

Poppycock. If your friend is carrying a Glock 9mm that holds 18 rounds, we're supposed to believe that he was so scared he HAD to unload 18 rounds into the assailant -- who by that time was probably bleeding out on the sidewalk? I don't think so.

Your friend needs to sign up for a higher-level self defense class at a decent school.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

The initial statement is idiotic. There are good schools in Ohio, like TDI.

[Frank Ettin]

If that hogwash came from someone who's a CCW instructor, he should be reported to whatever agency certifies CCW instructors in Ohio. An instructor spreading such horrible misinformation can get someone into a lot of trouble.

[Aguila Blanca]

If that hogwash came from someone who's a CCW instructor, he should be reported to whatever agency certifies CCW instructors in Ohio. An instructor spreading such horrible misinformation can get someone into a lot of trouble.
Agreed 110 percent.

[Tayta_Mayne]

Glenn, exactly where I told him to consider going before he ever walks out the door with a loaded firearm again. I also brought up the fact that a lot of people are carrying a hi cap pistol now and that 99.9% of the time 10+ rds is overkill and a grand jury would agree to that. I am going to try and get him to go to TDI with me soon. I know that this was a common sense thread. What scares me is that he firmly believes this horse crap that someone told him. If his instructor did indeed tell him this literally I am going to make a call to there office to report what is being taught. Thanks guys.

[Eagle Eye]

Tayta Mayne:

Your friend is of course, very wrong, as pointed out by the many respondents to your post. If he insists he is right, then he will most likely be "off the street" as well, due to the murder charge. That will be two birds with one stone (or maybe 17 or so stones?) -- so I guess the world will then be a safer place. (a sick jest for those of you with no ability to detect sarcasm -- I know you are out there!).

I agree that your friend needs retraining for an attitude correction and if it is confirmed that an instructor is spreading such tripe, he needs to be reported.

[Daugherty16]

refer him to an attorney, a good law library, or here : http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/29 to do some research. He (and you, and anyone who carries) should know the law and have any vagueness cleared up by an experienced attorney.

I would equate a lack of this knowlege to going into harm's way without knowing the rules of engagement. Trouble is sure to follow.

[dakota223]

one things for certain, if you draw your weapon your gonna have to use it. When you pull that firearm your guilty right at that moment! You have to prove you felt for your life. Several teachers say to unload your weapon, Is this something you have to do? No, but when you fire that pistol off do what it takes to put the person down for good. Because if you aim to wound it will be you on trial! And the prosecutors first question will be if you feared so much for your life, why didnt you aim to kill?

[Frank Ettin]

I really don't know where/how people come up with some of their absurd and wildly wrong notions about the laws associated with the use of force in self defense.

...one things for certain, if you draw your weapon your gonna have to use it....Nope, studies have shown that most defensive gun uses are successful without a shot being fired.

...When you pull that firearm your guilty right at that moment! You have to prove you felt for your life...Guilty of what?

Yes, by displaying your firearm in a threatening manner (let alone firing it), you have at least committed the act that is the material element of the crime of at least brandishing, and perhaps even assault with a deadly weapon. But as far as being guilty goes, that depends on whether you can establish your defense, i. e., that your display of lethal force was justified.

To do so, in most jurisdictions and under most circumstances you will need to be able to establish that a reasonable person in like circumstances, and knowing what you know, would have concluded that lethal force was necessary to prevent otherwise unavoidable, immediate death or grave bodily injury to an innocent. If your can establish that your display, threat or use of lethal force was justified, you are not guilty.

...when you fire that pistol off do what it takes to put the person down for good...No, you shoot to stop the threat. That is what matters. If your attacker breaks off the attack your legal justification for using lethal force ends, even if your attacker is still breathing. If your attacker stops and is still alive, if you finish him off, you have committed murder.

...if you aim to wound it will be you on trial!...You might wind up on trial in any event. But in any case, one does not shoot to wound. One shoots to stop.

...And the prosecutors first question will be if you feared so much for your life, why didnt you aim to kill? Do you have any evidence that has actually ever happened?

One does not shoot to wound. One does not shoot to kill. One shoots to stop.

[dakota223]

do you have proof fiddletown????????????????????????????????????? I only know what our OHIO ccw generated literature says, where the post was originated there manual that the ohio attourney general puts out says. So for the state of ohio refer to this. Its available online! Your intentions have to reflect the force you use and a pistol is deadly force.

[Al Norris]

dakota, before you get into this argument further, you should know that fiddletown is an attorney. Perhaps not from Ohio, but what he is saying IS the accepted "gospel" of the defensive firearms community at large.

Every situation is different. A single "rule" that if you draw you have to fire, is a rule that may get you tried as a murderer. It is simply not true in the vast majority of self defense situations.

I don't know how (or why) this misinformation gets started. Yet I have heard variations of this theme from members of every State. It Is Not True.

Even the studies by Kleck and Lott have shown that the vast majority of encounters, end with the gun being drawn but not fired. There's your "proof."

[Frank Ettin]

do you have proof fiddletown????????????????????????????????????? I only know what our OHIO ccw generated literature says, where the post was originated there manual that the ohio attourney general puts out says. So for the state of ohio refer to this. Its available online! ... Do I have proof of what, exactly?

First, as to my background, I'm a lawyer. I'm also an NRA certified instructor in several classes including Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home. I regularly teach the "law" component of NRA Personal Protection classes taught by a number of instructors in our area. My training includes Massad Ayoob's LFI-I and helping Mas teach his MAG40 class.

And yes I do know what the Manual published by the Ohio Attorney General says. It's entitled Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws. I have read it. Anyone else here can read it. It can be found here (http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/concealedcarrybook). The discussion of legal issues associated with the use of force is found on pages 19-25. What it says is consistent with what I have written.

Among other things, Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws says:

at page 19 (emphasis added):...In Ohio, deadly force can be used only to prevent serious bodily harm or death. Deadly force can never be used to protect property only. Depending on the specific facts and circumstances of the situation, use of deadly force may lead to criminal charges and/or civil liability....
at page 19 (emphasis added):...If law enforcement and prosecutors determine that a person’s use of deadly force is not justified, criminal charges may be pursued. In a situation where the victim is injured by the conduct of a person using a handgun, the licensee can be charged with assault crimes...
at page 20 (emphasis added):...Depending on the specific facts of the situation, an accused person may claim that use of deadly force was justified to excuse his or her actions, which would otherwise be a crime....

Nowhere in Ohio's Concealed Carry Laws does it say anything like --

...if you draw your weapon your gonna have to use it....
...When you pull that firearm your guilty right at that moment!...
...when you fire that pistol off do what it takes to put the person down for good....
...if you aim to wound it will be you on trial!...
..And the prosecutors first question will be if you feared so much for your life, why didnt you aim to kill?

As far as this "if you pull your gun, you need to use it" business goes, see, for one source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," (http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html) Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1. It's just one study that shows that a guns is fired in only a minority of successful defensive uses.

[Eagle Eye]

Thank you for taking your time and for your commitment to address some of the rediculous allegations and assumptions throughout this thread. The Kansas law as I have read it is very similar to the Ohio law as referenced by you.

I am an electrical engineer, and as such I did not feel qualified to address this, but I must comment that I have been bothered and puzzled by many of the statements made by the respondents.

I should have taken the time, but was too lazy. You took action and I commend you for that.

And thank you for your overall commitment to the firearms community.

Bill

[Frank Ettin]

Thanks, Eagle Eye.

[dakota223]

thank god im not part of this church staff please take off all my thread post my sales post and delete my account ill stick with my fellow brothers that have fought for ohios gun rights in our other forumn.....

[Al Norris]

I think someone just got miffed at being corrected!

dakota223, the best way to leave (in a huff or otherwise), is to just quit posting here (or anywhere else). As for deleting everything you've ever posted? Naw. It just messes with the continuity of those threads.

[dakota223]

then ill take pride in wrecking forums till you kick this name thank you

[maestro pistolero]

Dakota223 if you are incapable of learning from those who are in a better position to know certain things, then you are doomed to be a no better man than you are at this moment. You seem to lack the emotional maturity that I would hope a CCWr would possess.

If a little corrective information as to the facts of justified self defense gets your panties in a wad, what are you going to do when someone cuts you off on the road, then flips you the bird? Wait, I don't want to know.

[dakota223]

Just want disconnected from this sight, either take my name and my email out or ill start posting in ways they dont want. Dont want emails ill take my M&P, beretta 96 and armalite i was gonna sell elsewhere another forum.

[csmsss]

From personal experience, I can tell you that showing your backside to the world is never as fulfilling an experience as you imagine it to be. I'd suggest you grow up, learn to accept criticism and the fact that you don't know everything, and take the information from those who know better.

[maestro pistolero]

Just want disconnected from this sight, either take my name and my email out or ill start posting in ways they dont want. Dont want emails ill take my M&P, beretta 96 and armalite i was gonna sell elsewhere another forum.That sounds incredibly like I want to take my toys and go home. How about you either admit where you were wrong, or make a case why you were right? That's what adults do. Until you started being all offended that anyone dare correct you (even if they are an authority on the subject) no one attacked you personally.

I've been doing guns for 45 years and I learn something new all the time. Threatening to crap on threads will get you nowhere, you'll be locked out, and your whining thread will be memorialized on the forever-net.

Stick around, brother, there's a lot to learn here. Maybe you could even edit out some stuff you might realize you didn't mean, once you cool off. ( like your last three posts)

[dakota223]

I never said i knew everything........ What I'm saying is the staff needs to delete me. I do not want to be in a forum full of yuppies and rubs. and I dont want any chance of my email and any personal information they may have getting out! So get ahold of staff since they wont get up off there ass! And I will be gone!

[maestro pistolero]

I don't speak for this site, I am just a fellow member, like you. But I can tell you from experience your user name is not going to be deleted and neither are your posts for the reason Al Norris stated.

However, you are free, as far as I know to remove your email from your account information. Then, if you must go, I wish you well.

[dakota223]

reason why im ****** off is this morning early am hours I got 3 emails before this **** even started. Threatening me and my family over a damn post i made last night. I dont want to be a part of a community of cowards yuppies and rubs.... Lets see how you people react to bull**** like this and it wont let me take this email adress off! I dont want to be a part of a forumn where people are like that!!!!!!!

[Frank Ettin]

If you received inappropriate email, that is in my view improper. We should be able to discuss these matters as adults. Perhaps you should bring the emails to the attention of Al Norris.

[csmsss]

Any communication threatening harm to someone else is a criminal act. It's certainly not anything I've ever experienced from any of the members on this forum, and I'm sure the moderators and owners of this site would take such a thing extremely seriously indeed. There may be vigorously contested opinions and points of view expressed, but there's no place for threats here - from anyone.

[Eagle Eye]

Dakota 223: I agree with previous posters. No one should send you inappropriate emails.

By the way, I do not consider myself either the church choir or a yuppie, so I hope you are referring to the persons that sent you emails. I am a Vietnam veteran and was an active Marine for 6 years. I saw more action than I wanted at Khe Sanh during the Tet Offensive and at other locations around Dong Ha, Phu Bai and Chu Lai. I was honorably discharged and moved into a civilian career. That should not make me a yuppie.:D

I think the recent posts have been well intended and continue to hope that we all learn something new every day.

My best wishes to you.

[Al Norris]

dakota, please consider forwarding those emails to me, along with the complete headers, at: [email protected]

I've also changed a few parameters in your user profile. No one but us mods can see your email addy, unless you give it out in a PM.

[JN01]

I dont want to be a part of a community of cowards yuppies and rubs..

What the hell is a rub?

As to the original question, the friend is an idiot. If that is the type of legal advise he accepts and believes in, he will probably be an inmate sooner or later. The instructor is a bigger idiot, but unfortunately, he won't be the one taking the heat for his bad instruction.

[ChuckS]

Al Norris:Every situation is different. A single "rule" that if you draw you have to fire, is a rule that may get you tried as a murderer. It is simply not true in the vast majority of self defense situations.

I don't know how (or why) this misinformation gets started. Yet I have heard variations of this theme from members of every State. It Is Not True.

Even the studies by Kleck and Lott have shown that the vast majority of encounters, end with the gun being drawn but not fired. There's your "proof."

Here is gun-lawyers view of continuum of force and the charges you may face:
Pointing a gun at someone is legally distinguishable from drawing and displaying without aiming it at someone. Aiming a loaded gun at a person, without justification, is automatically "reckless endangerment", while drawing a gun and pointing it straight down at the ground is not.

Displaying a gun, muzzle-down, with the implicit message that you are prepared to shoot the other person, is a crime (assault, terroristic threats, whatever), in the absence of justification. But pointing it at them is an ADDITIONAL crime. And shooting at them is ANOTHER crime. And hitting them is ANOTHER crime. So if you don't aim it, shoot it, or hit them, you have not committed those crimes. You only need to justify the crimes you commit, not the ones that you don't commit.

"Justification" means that the harm you cause with your criminal act is less than the wrongful harm that you seek to prevent. So shooting someone is only justified by your goal of preventing the wrongful killing of yourself or another, or the severe unprovoked injuring of yourself or another. But scaring someone can be justified with a much lower standard; if you scare the perp so that he doesn't punch you in the face, it's arguable that the harm you prevented (being punched in the face wrongfully) would have been worse than the harm you caused (scaring a thug who was about to punch you in the face.) Bleeding is worse than ******* yourself.

Bottom line, "using" is not the same as "displaying the ability to use". The rules on the use of deadly force are not the same as the rules on threatening the use of deadly force. Otherwise, simply drawing your pistol would be chargeable as "murder".

P.S. This is from a Penna. lawyer's viewpoint.

[LordTio3]

I'm always dazzled and amazed that the calm, polite, and reasonable members of this forum never receive brash or threatening e-mails or personal messages.

Do you think there may be some correlation? Perhaps our bodies give off an aroma of Humble Pie that other people are just disgusted at the thought of partaking in. Just a theory.

~LT

[Hunter2678]

what an awesome thread!!!:cool:

[Jamie B]

I think that our angry friend meant rube, which is technically the opposite of yuppies.

As an OH resident, I want to thank fiddletown for his honest and correct answers.

The last thing that we need are these type of nasty rumors that are incorrect.

Again, thanks fiddletown.

For the record, I thought that your responses were correctly tempered, and would not have caused any offense to normal folks.

Jamie

[Frank Ettin]

Thanks, Jamie.

[shortwave]

To the OP,

As you may know by now, your friend is way out in left field.

Ask him if he empty's his gun in an assailant, whats he going to do about the other assailant that may be lurking.

As far as standing over a BG you've just shot, pulling the trigger when the PoPo pulls up, don't think thats advisable either. LEO's aren't mind readers and don't know if your the BG or the guy on the ground is.

Dakota, hope you wake up in the morning on the other side of the bed. Your sounding nuttier then squirrel doodoo and embarrassing us fellow Ohioans.

Thank You fiddletown for more of your expert knowledge and apologies for Dakota's attitude.:o