View Full Version : Single-Stack Trendy, But...
DannySeesUSMC
January 21, 2011, 03:28 PM
Save for the obvious advantages of slimness and weight savings for extended concealed carry, a similar double-stack pistol has more advantages.
Even here though, the thickness and weight can also be seen as an advantage of the double-stack in that a thicker grip and increased weight lessen felt-recoil/muzzle rise for faster, tighter follow-up shots and longer, more comfortable practice sessions.
A compact double-stack can have compatibility with much larger magazines of it's larger brethren. Anybody can keep 13-17 round 9mm, .40, .45 double stack spare magazines on them (if legal).
The most obvious advantage is the capacity on board. No matter how many spare magazines you keep on, single or double stack, it is not the same as having it in the pistol. You do not want to perform a reload if you can help it.
What I wrote in the General Handgun on the Caliber vs. Capacity thread is my main thoughts on the matter:
"Being really good on a range is not the same thing as using a firearm against people. In dream land every body who is decent on a range and practices some drills would take out 4 bad guys with only 4 perfectly placed center-mass shots. In real life.....
As a citizen you are going to use a handgun if there are several attackers or one or more with a weapon. Unless it happens on a daily basis and you are some type of legend in the making - you are going to have goofy fingers, little bit of shakes, etc. as a roller-coaster adrenaline rush hits you.
Unless you are going to just stroke it in front of a TV set or projector while watching old action movies, I think the larger capacity is the best bet.
Even well trained LE departments still come in under 40% hit ratio, most around 20%, because it's not the same as a range and you are scared, twitchy, trying to survive.
Most people can not draw a firearm under stress properly let alone take out a group of bad guys one or two shots each....high-capacity firearms were not designed for the other guys who aren't as cool and Godly as you are - they were designed for real life where a bad guy doesn't go down with 2 or 3 shots."
If you are a normal family guy and not a modern-day gunslinger, don't think a complete miss or two and 2 off-center hits to start things off is out of the question for you. That might have taken half your magazine away with 4 baddies practically attempting to stomp/stab/shoot you...maybe your lady who is with you.
The slightly larger, double-stack pistol of similar design and same caliber isn't always going to save the day but it's advantages are very serious and worth more than .2" extra thickness and a few ounces.
If you been around guns a while and know that a little single-stack compact fits you and the way you operate, then these words are not really for you - but for all the newer guys who are buying up tiny guns like crazy....think about this stuff realistically.
PSP
January 21, 2011, 03:38 PM
Not so sure I see the great advantage in having 11 rounds versus the 8 that I actully carry. If going to war or performing LE duties I'd want a large capacity mag, but then I don't have to keep that duty weapon concealed, do I? I'll stick with thin because, IMHO, it makes a big difference on the ability to remain undetected.
curt.45
January 21, 2011, 03:43 PM
I've found I'm so ugly that most people look away long before they notice any bulge from my gun or my weapon :eek:
twhidd
January 21, 2011, 03:51 PM
This seems to be a long-winded way of saying it's better to have more bullets in your gun.
DiscoRacing
January 21, 2011, 03:57 PM
I figure Im covered either way... I carry one single AND one double...
DannySeesUSMC
January 21, 2011, 04:07 PM
haha twhidd, in a way :)
Just a way to describe it and my reasons for thinking this way.
As a kid I thought 1911's were simply gorgeous and was always told "a revolver is plenty if you can actually shoot"....years later after being witness to, and having actual experiences with attacks/defense involving knives and guns..realize guys just shooting the [breeze] and blowing smoke is most of what you hear.
Fantasy world is best case scenario. The stress and speed of a situation makes everything worlds different than being on a range or in a dojo. Some people imagine themselves being just fine with a tactical folding knife, but you have them try to deploy it while screaming at them and someone else banging things together there is a good chance they will goof up and drop the knife or cut themselves.
tlm225
January 21, 2011, 04:25 PM
You overlook one other, very important aspect of the single stack, the fit of the gun to the hand. I've owned, competed with and carried on duty a variety of guns, SIG 226, S&W 5906, S&W 3904, Beretta M9, and a 1911.
Of these, the single stack fits my hand far better and gives me the greatest assurance of a well placed first round hit at speed. I'll take that over capacity. Those with larger hands won't neccessarily have that issue but it's not a "one size fits all world".
DannySeesUSMC
January 21, 2011, 04:28 PM
You are 100% right, didn't think about that while collecting and posting my thoughts. Thanks for bringing it up, reminds me of the guys and gals in the Marine Corps who often had a hard time with the Beretta.
RickB
January 21, 2011, 04:39 PM
Owning a gun no more makes you armed, than owning a piano makes you a musician. So, if I'm not going to practice, and can't hit what I'm shooting at, the solution is to buy a gun that allows me to shoot lots of rounds and hope one connects? I'd say that's pretty irresponsible. I think it makes more sense to advocate carrying a single shot pistol, as at least you'll think twice about how to employ your one shot, since you can't afford to miss.
HKFan9
January 21, 2011, 04:41 PM
The 1911 has worked and worked well for 100 years... I'm sure it will work and work well for another 100 years... Reason why a Springfield Champion Operator came home with me yesterday.:cool: That and I never have to worry about mag prices increasing due to scares like the AZ shooting. Don't get me wrong, I like other high cap pistols... but your forgetting the fact that MOST self defense shootings are < 3 shots fired so needing 20 rounds of 9mm isn't really a great thing, when you have to tuck it all under a shirt. I can handle myself with a single stack 1911 or a single stack Kahr.
The streets of suburban American are not the streets of Afghanistan. I don't feel I need a combat load out to feel safe. Generally just one gun (mostly .45) a pocket knife, and a cell phone. Maybe a spare gun and bigger fixed blade knife in the car.
Amin Parker
January 21, 2011, 04:46 PM
RickB, everything you said is 100% correct
DannySeesUSMC
January 21, 2011, 05:04 PM
It's not just about how much you practice and if you plan on placing only well-aimed shots. How often do people with a new CCW and pistol practice hitting moving targets and how often do they experience violent situations that call for deadly force?
Shooting out the bullseye of a paper target at an indoor range is world's apart. The first time a local LEO takes twice as long to draw his weapon and uses 6 rounds to put down one bad guy has an eye opener even though he was extremely fast and accurate with both in training.
Your eyes and fingers don't work the same as they do at a range or dry-firing at home.
oneounceload
January 21, 2011, 05:07 PM
If you need more rounds than a typical single stack, you're in deeper do-do that a few more rounds won't solve the issue
chris in va
January 21, 2011, 05:14 PM
I'd like to see a gun that is a 'pseudo single stack'. Widen the mag just a bit to allow another two rounds, but keep it skinny like a single. Doesn't seem that difficult.
For example, my Kahr mag holds 7 rounds. Widen it (and the frame) by say...1/16" and I'm sure they could get it to be a 9+1 gun without one of those ridiculous extended mags.
HKFan9
January 21, 2011, 05:44 PM
I agree shooting at a static range doesn't equal stress induced shooting. I was always told to practice how you play. I am not LEO or Military I wanted to go Military but the metal plate and 8 screws in my leg held me back. There are a number of high stress hand to hand and even knife fighting classes a civilian can take. I know hand to hand is not the same as shooting a gun... but a key point in classes I have taken is situational awareness, knowing how to respond to a threat, and staying "calm and in control" (I know in reality you will never be calm and in control in a life or death situation, but you can come to terms where your brain is still functioning and planning rather than drastically moving about and flailing in fear. I feel these types of courses and training has helped me shoot under stress. The ones I took were not fancy movie style moves... and they were not martial arts competition moves... they were down and dirty... and it was a full contact class. My sparing partner also happened to be a D1 wrestler from Rutgers.:rolleyes:
These coupled with running and gunning handgun competitions, and getting your heart rate evelvated before shooting can help a person perform under stress. Don't get me wrong IDPA and IPSC are what they are.... fun GAMES. But running around rapid firing under a timer is more stressful than a sunny afternoon standing and plinking away at a target.
Sadly there has been two instances in my life where I was forced to draw my firearm, luckily the threat retreated and I never had to pull the trigger. I was lucky enough upon drawing the firearm they retreated... but even with adrenaline and my heart rate sky high, I had no problems drawing, and aiming, and in the event the threat didn't stop... I have nothing but confidence in my ability I would of hit what I was aiming at.
Airsoft believe it or not can also be a fun/safe way to train. You can get quality gas blow backs in many of the same makes as our real steel carry guns, that function the same, and you can practice "live fire" threats with a buddy. It isn't real combat, but if you take it seriously it can be a good tool to use... just don't let it result in running around shooting in other in the tail and laughing.:rolleyes:
It all comes down to practice and being prepared. If you feel you need a 9mm XDm with 20+ rounds in the mag and two spare mags to feel secure, than go for it. Me.. its usually a single stack .45 or 9mm. Sometimes a spare mag.
Drock
January 21, 2011, 06:09 PM
DannySeesUSMC, I understand where you're coming from. Until you've been "tested" in a truly violent situation you can't predict your response. I've seen people respond differently in the same situation so I guess even once is not enough of a test. That's just a given.
All people can hope for is that all the training that they do will turn into muscle memory or what ever you want to call it so that the violent situation won't overwhelm them into inaction.
Dave
curmudgeon1
January 21, 2011, 06:10 PM
I practice drawing and flicking off the thumb-safety (with the gun hand) in one motion with my single-stack .45acp from the cocked and locked condition....... the thinner grip provides a much more secure grip when performing that maneuver. Trying that with a double-stack while still maintaining a firm shooting grip gets a little dicy when you're in a hurry.
DannySeesUSMC
January 21, 2011, 06:18 PM
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences gentlemen.
WVsig
January 21, 2011, 06:51 PM
Its all about what fits your hand and what you shoot well. I have smaller hands. Many double stacks simply do not work for me due to the longer trigger reach.
I love the BHP, CZ P01, Sig P228 and a few others.
The reality is that for me the 1911, Sig P225, Sig P220 and other single stack guns shoot better for me. What good is 7 more rounds going to do me if I cannot hit the intended target with a natural grip? Any gun that I carry or use for self defense has to be a gun I pick up and naturally point and fire.
For me most of the time that means a single stack gun. I would rather hit with 8 rounds than miss with 17.
HKFan9
January 21, 2011, 06:56 PM
Another thing I like to do... if you have the private range... or don't mind people looking at you funny... jog a few laps around the parking lot or where ever... get your heart rate up... leave the gun some place secure obviously... after my heart is racing... I staple up some note cards the small ones... and stand in what I consider a legitimate self defense range... meaning closer than the 25 yard line people like to target shoot at. Than I practice drawing... flicking off the safety when the gun gets to my chest and pointed at target.. extended... and double taping at the note card. The note cards are indeed small... and you might not hit it every time... but for me it seems to keep me more controlled and focused in and my shots get damn near close if they don't hit. Do this same thing with a larger man sized target (I prefer the FBI white ones because they are not HUGE like others.) and you will notice your double taps are well in vital areas.
I am a believe in making shots count... not sending as many down range as possible. I have carried a wide variety of guns. The most pleasant to me is a 1911 or a Kahr.
I understand your point however. This debate has been going on forever between revolver guys and semi auto guys as well. No one gun fits one job, and people have different preferences.
Your a Marine... stick to what YOU like... and what works for YOU.... than just do what they told you to do... Adapt and Overcome.;)
balance
January 21, 2011, 09:57 PM
I think I've held most of the popular single stacks, and lots of the popular double stack pistols, and the two pistols that stuck out to me as the "most comfortable", are both double stack (H&K P30 and Walther P99). These two happen to be the pistols that I shoot the most accurately.
AZAK
January 22, 2011, 03:46 AM
I'd like to see a gun that is a 'pseudo single stack'. Widen the mag just a bit to allow another two rounds, but keep it skinny like a single. Doesn't seem that difficult.
Well at SHOT Show, (back in '99 if memory serves correctly) I believe a little company known as Wilson Combat was getting ready to introduce a 10+1 Government size 1911 called the KZ-45; stainless steel, kevlar and poly frame.
Again, if memory serves correctly, the grip width was actually slightly less than a standard Govt 1911 width and the floor plate was flush.
They did product the KZ for a number of years, with an accuracy guarantee of 1 1/2" at 25 yards, for approx $1,000.
From what I have researched, WC stopped production of the KZ due to its being made on essentially the CQB "line"; it was cutting into the CQB production, and the demand was for the CQB. (Again, from memory.)
Regardless of all that, adding a couple of extra rounds reliably to a traditionally single stack pistol has been done without adding extra width to the grip or any additional length. Apparently just not "popular" enough to really survive and thrive.
Not to mention that the "older" 1911 single stack mags held 7.
Daryl
January 22, 2011, 07:40 AM
Some interesting thoughts and comments.
I think another thing to consider is just where you are. In southern Az, I've no problem carrying a 5-shot snub while in town doing errands and such.
However, when I head out in the hills, that same 5 shot snub seems maybe a little shy of what I want should worst case scenario happen.
It's more than possible to stumble across a drug load here, and while a pistol of any kind is no match for an AK, a higher capacity pistol is often considered somewhat better than a lower capacity.
I shoot jackrabbits, bunnies, ground squirrels, and just generally make a nuisance of myself to the local varmint population. As a result, I usually hit what I shoot at. I'd be perfectly satisfied with a single stack, or even a revolver in most places, but there are times and places where more capacity just seems to make good sense.
If I could only have one, I'd take the higher capacity as a result. I hope and pray I'm never forced to use either to take another's life.
Daryl
dgludwig
January 22, 2011, 03:02 PM
If you need more rounds than a typical single stack, you're in deeper do-do that a few more rounds won't solve the issue
Well maybe having more ammunition on board wouldn't make a difference most of the time. But some of the time, those extra rounds might just carry the day. Who's to say? But I can tell you that in my capacity as a le officer for over thirty years, I've had more than one occasion to talk with people who were actually involved in a shoot-out and if there is any single consensus, it is this: no one has ever complained about having a weapon with a high ammunition capacity-and most would gladly have accepted even more.
In this sort of discussion, invariably somebody will speak up to say that nobody needs more than the five rounds a typical snub-nose carries, as if any gun fight is ever really "typical". I usually ask what is so magical about a five round count? Why not just load up with four and go on your merry way? After all, the typical armed encounter is usually settled with three shots or less...
doofus47
January 22, 2011, 04:41 PM
I understand the "it's better to have it and not need it" theory of large-cap mags, but my tiny squirrel hands don't fit well around a double stack unfortunately.
Grip control has moved towards to the top of my "what do I need in an auto pistol" checklist.
yhsmv
gwnorth
January 22, 2011, 05:56 PM
Agreed, for many of us smaller stature folks, most (or at least many) double stack pistols are just far too thick in the grip. I have a couple of double stack 9mm's (CZ P-01 and SIG P226), but my 1911's are much better suited to my hand than either of those. I shoot the 9's well enough, and just plain like them (at least the two I have) enough that I've kept them. Others I have tried have been far worse fit to my hands though.
Having grown up with revolvers, and still owning more of those then autoloaders, I am not at all bothered by a perceived need for more rounds in the gun. It's whatever you know, feel comfortable with and can handle most effectively, really. To be honest, of the guns I own, the ones I would still prefer to have with me in a defensive situation are either of my 3" .357 revolvers or one of my 1911s. I'd feel better about my chances with any of those over any double stack pistol I've ever shot.
oneounceload
January 22, 2011, 06:14 PM
I understand the "it's better to have it and not need it" theory of large-cap mags, but my tiny squirrel hands don't fit well around a double stack unfortunately.
Grip control has moved towards to the top of my "what do I need in an auto pistol" checklist.
Agree 100%
dgludwig
January 22, 2011, 07:54 PM
I understand the "it's better to have it and not need it" theory of large-cap mags, but my tiny squirrel hands don't fit well around a double stack unfortunately.
Grip control has moved towards to the top of my "what do I need in an auto pistol" checklist.
Agree 100%
More agreement. Gun fit and handling attributes absolutely trump ammunition capacity. No amount of extra bullets on hand will make up for not having a good grip, an adequate reach to the trigger and being able to access all the "control" levers (slide release, safety, decocker, magazine release, etc.).
B.N.Real
January 22, 2011, 08:34 PM
If that's your requirement then I say go for it.
But 99.99% of the time all you will be doing is lugging that ccw all over the place.
A slimmer carry bumps into less stuff and does'nt get noticed near as much as a wider handgun.
And it's also easier to carry an extra mag in another pocket because the mags are much thinner.
But if I could carry around a full sized HK 45,concealed carry all the time,you bet I would.
billnourse
January 23, 2011, 09:02 AM
I feel that high capacity mags for CCW self defense guns might create a "spray and pray" attitude. At the range it is the guys with the high capacity mags, be it pistol or auto rifle, that just shoot as much and as fast as they can without much regard for accuracy, while the guys with single stacks, revolvers and bolt rifles tend to be more precision.
No amount of rounds is going to save you in a gunfight if you don't hit what you are shooting at. This is as true now as it was in the days of old when gunfighters were using single sixes, or when Tom Threepersons, Bill Jordan, and others were depending on double action revolvers for their lives.
The key to surviving, is to be so highly trained that all your actions are automatic when things go bad. I don't know a lot of CCW people, or police officers for that matter that put in the necessary time for that to be the case.
Be that as it may, you just can't subistitute fire power for lack of accuracy when it comes to self defense. "Spray and Pray" just has the potential for too much colateral damage to be an option for civilian self defense.
Just an opinion.
Bill
dgludwig
January 23, 2011, 10:22 AM
I feel that high capacity mags for CCW self defense guns might create a "spray and pray" attitude. At the range it is the guys with the high capacity mags, be it pistol or auto rifle, that just shoot as much and as fast as they can without much regard for accuracy, while the guys with single stacks, revolvers and bolt rifles tend to be more precision.
The above has not been my experience at all. High capacity magazines don't "create" anything. Training (or the lack thereof) is the author of competency when it comes to surviving a gun fight. If two people otherwise equal in terms of ability engage in the same training regimen, the one having more ammunition when the "showdown" commences will have an indisputable "edge" in certain, if uncommon, scenarios.
No amount of rounds is going to save you in a gunfight if you don't hit what you are shooting at.
And when trading fire with multiple assailants (see the "uncommon" caveat referenced above) and you run out of bullets with your five shot snubbie, being out of rounds isn't going to save you in a gunfight either.
Nobody is advocating a "spray and pray" strategy nor is anybody discounting the importance of shot placement when it comes to prevailing in a gunfight. The only point I'm making is that, everything else being equal, in certain (albeit unusual) circumstances, having a self-defense weapon loaded with, say six rounds, as opposed to, say five rounds, affords an incontestable advantage to the guy armed with the six-shooter.
The key to surviving, is to be so highly trained that all your actions are automatic when things go bad.
This is true but it's just as true for the fellow armed with a five-shot Airweight as it is for the guy toting the high-capacity Glock. And an effective training protocol and the attendant good tactical mind-set doesn't differentiate between the two.
Tactical Jackalope
January 23, 2011, 12:43 PM
Wow...awesome awesome awesome thread. Thank you Danny, and semper fi.
Don't know what else to add. You could probably agree with me on this though...
The more times you have to pull that gun the better and easier it gets for you, like second nature.
This also goes with shooting it, pointing it and using it to defend yourself and save your own life and others.
It all becomes second nature with time and experience. Now........It IS better to not go through this stuff. Yes. I'm just stating, real life experience? Nothing beats it...and if you know someone who has it? Make sure they're in your corner.
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