What would be the best Milsurp Rifle?

[Milsurplover]

Hey guys, this is my first visit to TFL so nice to meet yall. Anyway... I've been wondering... I want to get into collecting Milsurp firearms because I just love historic rifles! (The only 2 I own right now are 91/30 Nagants but I love em'!) I want to get your opinions of what the best milsurp would be in terms of accuracy, availability, ammo cost and how easy it is to find, and spare parts assuming the rifle is too expensive to just replace if it breaks. I am ignorant in the case of milsurps so... all your answers and insight is appreciated!

[RichC]

K31 is a great rifle.

[smoakingun]

K-31 isnthe BEST milsurp

[FALPhil]

I own quite a few milsurps. It would be very hard to pick "the best". My K31 is the most accurate - heck, it's more accurate than a lot of my modern bolt guns. The Mosin is pretty accurate, plus, I can use it to chop wood and paddle my canoe. If I put the bayonet on it, I can roast a small pig using the bayo as a spit. The No. 4 Mk I* SMLE is the easiest to carry; it balances just right. The K98s and the Type 99 have non-rotating claw extractors and are extremely reliable. The Steyr M95 is short and handy, and the straight-pull action is fast. The 1903A3 shoots my favorite hunting cartridge as does the Garand, which feeds my nostalgia. The M1 Carbine is the most fun centerfire plinker I own.

I don't think there is a "best". I think you need to own a bunch of milsurps so that you can enjoy all their traits.

[RaySendero]

Milsurplover,

If I were you - These would be at the top of my list:

8x57 German Mauser 98k
6.5x55 Swedish Mauser m96
7.5x55 Swiss K31 Schmidt-Ruben
.303 British P14 Enfield

PS: for pure shooting fun I'd add a 22LR Romanian 1969 Trainer

[Hardcase]

If the 8mm 98K is a bit too spendy, consider the VZ-24. As with all rifles, accuracy varies amongst individuals, but as a whole, I think that the VZ-24 is the equal of the 98K, just without the notoriety.

Look out for Enfields too. They can be quite accurate, although surplus ammo has dried up.

[omahahaha]

my vz isn't as accurate as my mossins

[GregM]

While I love LOVE the M1 Garand, my favorite is the Enfield No.5Mk.1 jungle carbine. It carries wonderfully, has excellent sights that I find easier to adjust than anything else I own, and its, surprisingly, VERY accurate. I'm still working on loving my K31, its showing potential, but i've not had enough range time with it yet to fall for it.

GregM

[Wildalaska]

Most accurate milsurps are swedes and k31s, followed by 1903s

WildinmyhumbleopinionAlaska ™©2002-2011

[auburn2]

That is entirely subjective and going to be based to a degree on your life experiences. IMO the "best" is a M-1 Garand. By best I mean the last one I would want my collection to be without.

This is purely subjective and personal choice, but I think the M-1 is the most fun surplus rifle I have shot. For me I also like the American heritage, the complexity and the workmanship that went into it. I did not expect to like it as much as I do when I bought it. After hefting and firing one you get a real appreciation for it and its firepower. Being raised on smaller modern military-type semi-auto rifles and having shot a bunch, having a semi-auto 30-06 made a real impression on me.

After that my second would be a Turkish Mauser. Not because they are special per se but because I've lived in Turkey so they have a certain value to me that is not reflective in their price or how they would be valued by others.

I would really like a 1903 Sprinfield, and if I had one it might get the nod but they are too expensive for me right now.

[Esteban32696]

If I were just starting to collect, I would first go after the rifles that were WW2 service firearms. Some of these are still a bargain & their prices will go up. Many are , or near , 100 years old. Save up your money & only collect good grade rather than cheaper ones. Matching #'s are most desirable .

[mapsjanhere]

I'm still getting tears in my eyes when I see those adds from the 60's selling G43 for $69, and K98 for $15. Get them while you can still get them ;).

[madcratebuilder]

I enjoy the history behind the rifle, the meaning of all the different markings. My first choice would be the No4 Enfield, Mausers, Swiss K's.

[James K]

In one sense, the K-31, fine rifle that it is, has no history. Switzerland was neutral in both World Wars, so their rifles were used in no battles, were never carried in triumph or surrendered in defeat. Collectible, yes. An interesting design, yes. But historic, well maybe not.

I am reminded of a story that was told when the Swiss adopted the StG57. The American military attache in Bern was shown one by a Swiss captain and remarked that, like all Swiss machinery, it was made like a fine watch. How, he wondered aloud, would it do in the jungle or the desert. The Swiss officer, knowing that Swiss policy was solely to defend their country, not to mount expeditionary forces, looked out the window at the pristine mountains and clear air, and asked, "What jungle? What desert?"

Jim

[smoakingun]

The Mosin is pretty accurate, plus, I can use it to chop wood and paddle my canoe.

I just squirted milk out of my nose

I will have to disagree with Jim though. There is more to history than combat experience. The k-31 has a unique history. It is the only rifle ever issued by a government that never lived in a arsenal somewhere. The Swiss took their rifles and ammunition home. They were drilled with, shot, and cared for by the same owner from issue till retirement. No other milsurp in the world can say that.

[SIGSHR]

Milsurps are for history, shooting is secondary. For simple shooting, a US M1903 or M1917 is best, ammunition readily available. Or an M-1 Carbine. The M-1 Garand has lot of history but as the more knowledgeable M-1 aficionados will tell you, you must be careful about using commercial ammunition in it. The Swiss rifles have no
"history", are superbly made, take a rather rare cartridge. Lee Enfields saw lots of action, finding one in "correct" configuration can be tricky due to rebuilds, the wide variety of subcontracted parts they used, bore diameters vary a great deal. French Rifles such as the Lebel and M1907 and M1907/15
have lots of history, take a pretty rare cartridge, are fairly scarce. Mausers come in lots of varieties.

[ohen cepel]

Not a lot of history behind them, but the Yugo M48 is worth a look. Inexpensive, great design (Mauser), and can be found in like new condition.

[Milsurplover]

I hear a lot about this M48 mauser but I have yet to come across one on the internet :confused: anyone here know somewhere I could go about looking for one of these? I've decided there's no way I can get 1 of these.. On the top of my list so far is an M39 Finnish Mosin, Swiss K31, Either a german 98k or one of the 98k clones, an Enfield No. 4 Mk 1, and am strongly considering a Springfield 03 or 03A3.. my only problem is I don't know what my first choice would be! Further information is greatly appreciated! Thanks to everyone so far

[GoOfY-FoOt]

A fully functioning, free one, would be the best to me...:D

[OscarTurner]

What would be the best Milsurp Rifle?

Any milsurp rifle handed down to you, no matter what kind or what condition.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/92BlueSi/Private/Lee_06.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y219/92BlueSi/Private/Win1917.jpg

But, since I did not have any great grandfathers fighting for Switzerland in the world wars, I will be looking to buy a K-31 someday for myself.

[dogtown tom]

My vote goes to the 1909 Argentine Mausers

[Ignition Override]

Milsurplover:
Among other people who know their guns, madcratebuilder really know his Enfields.
If you want the ease of aperture sights and really good value, an Enfield #4 and then a 'Service Grade' Garand from the CMP are recommended.

The Enfield #5's recoil is not as bad as what many people claim, but there are many imitations.
My shoulders are skinny, but standing or sitting upright with a "chickenwing" keeps the recoil more comfy than with my Yugo Mauser.
My first "Jungle Carbine" came from "Joesalter.com".

You look much longer to find a good Enfield #4 or #5 (except on "Joesalter"), therefore searching for a good Garand need not be in haste.

[p99guy]

Jim, while no major offensives were to the K31's credit....they did kill some nazis in border clashes. One involved a a french town being ransacked by the SS, with german gunfire directed toward the swiss side of the town...the swiss troopers showed the SS thier marksmanship training in return with k31 and machinegun fire ...stopping the slaughter of french civilans and routing the SS from the town with heavy SS causulties.

the K31 guarded the Vatican in the hands of the swiss guard unit for several decades(till the sig 550 5.56mm)

a few german and american airmen were killed with the k31 during escape attempts from swiss P.O.W. camps.

The K31 was fired in anger.

[Darth Kur]

From personal experience, the M1917 Eddystone is very nice and accurate. Enfield SMLE's are quite interesting and fun. Also in the very accurate department is the Carl Gustaf Swedish Mauser. Mosin–Nagant's as also fascinating and happen to be very plentiful lately, both in 91/30 (which I need to get) and M44 iterations. The Egyptian Haakim rifle is a hell of a blast, literally. I recently acquired a Polish made Tokarev that I've taken quite a liking to. Others that I'd suggest, that are on my "need to get list" are a Swiss K-31, Russian Makarov, German K98, Argentine or Chilean Mauser in 7X57, 1895 Nagant revolver and a CZ-70 for starters. Of coarse an M14, Garand, M1 Carbine and Springfield 1903 would be great as well to add to any collection. Sadly, since they've all been raised up to ridiculously over inflated prices over the last 15 years I'll probably never have any of them. But if money is no object then by all means go for it.

[Tikirocker]

Get em all, one of each ... that's where my collection has gone but my main area of interest is the Enfield rifles. I have out shot scoped modern rifles from the off hand position at 200 yards at my range using my 1942 Lithgow No1 MkIII* using irons ... much to the chagrin of those further down the line. No problems with accuracy and Enfields, I load my own ammo as well.

( I don't really class the K31 as a Milsurp ... as it was not used by a combatant nation and never really saw dedicated action - it's a nice target rifle, but not really a legit battle rifle )

Tiki.

[kadima]

Beg to differ, about the K31.
It was never shot in a battle, this is true, but in the true spirit of "Si vis pacem para bellum" it was one or more K31 (or K11) in each Swiss home that allowed the Confoederatio to remain free during IIWW....

K.

[Tikirocker]

It was never shot in a battle, this is true


Exactly ... in my view it's not a battle rifle or a rifle in the same class as those fielded by the Allied and Axis combatants of WW2; it didn't feature.

Tiki.

[Gunplummer]

If you want to shoot them, add an M-1 Carbine, the ammo is reasonable.

[jsmaye]

...I don't really class the K31 as a Milsurp ... as it was not used by a combatant nation and never really saw dedicated action - it's a nice target rifle, but not really a legit battle rifle...

A distinction without a difference - it is a milsurp because it is a military surplus.

[Tikirocker]

A distinction without a difference - it is a milsurp because it is a military surplus.

Many collectors of WW1 and WW2 Military surplus don't class it as a legitimately tested battle rifle. As a matter of semantics, it can be claimed that it is ex military and therefore a Milsurp. Closer examination of the issue reveals that it didn't serve with the same distinction as the main battle rifles of the Allied and Axis forces of either WW1 and WW2 and that is why the distinction can be, and often is made. So yes it is a Milsurp ... but the term Milsurp for many collectors is synonymous with rifles that saw service with a major combatant.

Tiki.

[simonkenton]

The best milsurp rifle?

Swedish Mauser, hands down.

[Cheapshooter]

"the greatest battle implement ever devised" by General George S. Patton,

M1 Garand

That being said, and considering the relatively high cost I would say for a beginning collector any of the afore mentioned lower priced rifles are good starters.

[Ignition Override]

Milsurplover: If you can shoot well with the old open sights, you can buy a really good/exc. Yugo 24/47 Mauser, or 48 for about $200-250. The surplus ammo should still be about .25/rd., as it was last spring.
A company now advertises that their rear scope mount requires no (perm.) alteration for a short scout scope.

GregM:
I missed your comments earlier about the "Jungle Carbine".

You had 'stolen my thunder', and finally saw where you state that it is also your favorite rifle.
Just in case you are not too far, visits to my brother's outdoor club by Evansville always includes an Enfield #5 and the SKS.

[Volucris]

For cost vs performance easily the K-31 or a Swedish Mauser in 6.5 Swede.

Garands are wonderful rifles but they are still very expensive from people being too proud of labels.

[Glenn Bartley]

I have a Mossberg M44, in .22LR, that was a military issued trainer and which I bought from the CMP as military surplus. Most people do not think of a rifle in .22LR as milsurp, but if they were military trainers then indeed they are milsurp. As for the M44, it is a great rifle, accurate as a tack driver, and was not that expensive. I do imagine though they have gone up in price more than a little bit since I got mine several years ago.

I also have a couple of Mosin Nagants - one M44 and a 91/30, a Yugoslavian SKS, and a Yugoslavian M24/47 in 8mm Mauser. M24/47 is pretty accurate and a strong rifle. I like it a lot. All are great rifles. I also owned a couple other SKS's and another Nagant M44 but sold them. Those are the milsurp rifles I can speak to through ownership. Of all of them, the Mossberg M44 is by far the best quality rifle and the best shooter.

I would like to pick up a decent Enfield, bought a couple but returned them to the dealer because the crowns were badly scraped, sure would like another in nice shape.

As for the best overall, I have not tried enough of em yet to be able to answer and any answer I could give would be very subjective to personal likes and dislikes.

All the best,
Glenn B

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

No love for the Arisakas on the accuracy front?? My type 38 is scary accurate... My remington built Mosin Nagant m91 is really accurate and only the M39 Finn is comparable in the Mosin Family...

[sirsloop]

1903a3... awesome awesome rifles!!

[finloq]

Wow! Favorite (in my collection)?

History:
1895 Chilean M95 Mauser
1939 Soviet (Finnish capture) Tula Mosin 91/30
1917 LSA Enfield No.1 Mk. III

Accuracy:
1945 Long Branch Enfield No.4 Mk.I*
1954 Spanish FR8
1954 Romanian Mosin M44
1954 HRA M1 Garand

Just Plain Neat:
1945 Fazakerly No.5 Mk.I
1907 Soviet (Czech rework) Izhevsk Mosin 91/38
1942 Sako (1898 Sestroryetsk) Mosin M39
1904 Hopkins & Allen 12guage

[Buzzcook]

it was one or more K31 (or K11) in each Swiss home that allowed the Confoederatio to remain free during IIWW....

That and being a manufacturing center for the Third Reich.

If we eliminate the K-31 then would we have to do the same thing to the Swedish Mauser?
What counts as enough military use?
The 6mm Lee Navy saw some limited use. Nothing like the Krag and the Krag was limited to a brief war and police actions. The French MAS 49 didn't see much action.
If we go back to the black powder age there are several rifles that only saw colonial action (keeping the natives in their place).

Personally I think the Swedish Mauser should be near the top of any list of quality milsurps. We should base our opinions on the quality of the rifle not that is chanced to be involved in a conflict.

[Tikirocker]

We should base our opinions on the quality of the rifle not that is chanced to be involved in a conflict.

Nobody has questioned the quality of the K31, on the contrary, what is in question is its legitimacy as a battle proven rifle within some circles of collecting and shooting communities. There is no room for straw men here ... the issue has nothing to do with quality, but rather legacy.


Tiki.

[Buzzcook]

Tikkirocker this is from the OP

I want to get your opinions of what the best milsurp would be in terms of accuracy, availability, ammo cost and how easy it is to find, and spare parts assuming the rifle is too expensive to just replace if it breaks.

And here's you.


the issue has nothing to do with quality, but rather legacy.

Imho the OP intended this thread to be about quality, not legacy, hence my post.

[Tikirocker]

Err no ... here's me ...

Get em all, one of each ... that's where my collection has gone but my main area of interest is the Enfield rifles. I have out shot scoped modern rifles from the off hand position at 200 yards at my range using my 1942 Lithgow No1 MkIII* using irons ... much to the chagrin of those further down the line. No problems with accuracy and Enfields, I load my own ammo as well.

( I don't really class the K31 as a Milsurp ... as it was not used by a combatant nation and never really saw dedicated action - it's a nice target rifle, but not really a legit battle rifle )

Tiki.


My comments regarding the K31 were an aside, I was making a distinction since the OP may want a rifle that has a proven combat record, both practically and historically speaking. As I said ... no room for straw men here.

I also stated get em all, because many collectors I know have rifles of just about every type - including yours truly. Any rifle can be accurized with care and attention and parts and ammo can be found for all of them as well. The answer to the OP's question is 'how long is a piece of string?'. I gave my two penneth.

If you can't abide differing views you may want to direct your replies to someone else.

Tiki.

[Buzzcook]

If you can't abide differing views you may want to direct your replies to someone else.

I thrive on disagreement. I am personally a very disagreeable person:D

You seem to have a similar trait.

[Tikirocker]

I thrive on disagreement. I am personally a very disagreeable person

You seem to have a similar trait.



Well now, it appears we've found a common trait - perhaps we can be friends after all ... ;)

Tiki.

[LtMiller]

If you have the means, collect them all; if your shooting, consider your ammo expenses, esp. exotic calibers. I started collecting them a few years back, but finally, accepted my mistake; I should have collected M1s and M14s, the real battle rifles, and they are a beauty, and a joy to shoot at the range or in the field, plus 30-06 and 7.62x51 are easy to reload. I started teaching a batch of youths to become riflemen using .22s; they are now ready for the M1A (M14 clone), this Summer. These 2 rifles are my life (my partner) and I will be sharing them to this future riflemen. Part of the lesson will be the M14 receivers, I have in my collection, that was destroyed by our government. It will brings tears to a grown man seeing these so-called paperweights. I am really out of topic, but we need to save these rifles from destruction.

[The Earl o Sammich]

No respectable collection would be complete, or even off to a good start for that matter, without an M1 Garand. They can be had relatively cheaply right now through the DCM/CMP. Join a club, shoot a match or 2 and you can buy one through the mail. If you really interested in collecting get you Curios and Relicts FFL. It costs $30 bucks and you can do it through the mail. Forms are down loadable off the internets for free. Now anyone can send you a any weapon that is over 50 years old and has collector value through via common carrier. I've bought Colt 1911 through the mail. The first time you don't have to pay an FFL for a transfer you've made your money back.

[rr2241tx]

Since you already have 91/30s, Finn M-39. Find out what the M-N really could have been. Check out MG42's aperature sight leaf and front sight set too. Cannot beat 7.62x54R for price and versatility.

But, you need to get your 03 and basically get one or three of all of them. Just keeping up with all the ammo gets to be a hobby of its own.

[bassfishindoc]

This is a completely personal decision. I have a few milsurps. My favorites are the US Army milsurp rifle as I love the history that goes along with them. I currently have a M1 Garand and US Remington 1903A3. I still need a Krag, 1903, 1917, and M1 Carbine. When that is accomplished I will try to get one of each of the different manufacturers. Also, if I ever get the money, I would love one of the few M14s that managed to make it to civilian hands!

[hikingman]

Best value for the dollar? A walnut K31 with above average stock and VG+ barrel (inside), matching numbers across the rifle-including the bolt!
A soldier's tag would make a nice bonus...

[Bamashooter]

1903 Springfield
Mosin Nagant 91/59
Hungarian M-44
Thats what I have. I would one day like to add a FN Mauser and an M1 Garand

[jackpine]

your best investment right now would be U.S. made issue firearms. If you wait too long they will be priced way too high to get a fairly priced shooter grade gun.

One other piece of advice is start socking away a little money now for the next milsurp that hits the market that way you'll be able to get them cheap the first go around rather than pay twice a few years down the road. If I would have done this when I first started collecting I would be miles ahead.