444 vs 450 vs 45-70

[Ultra12]

i would like to add a big caliber gun to my collection and always wanted a lever action. since NYC has Nazi laws all I am allowed is 5 shot mag. So Marlin is the only one i found that satisfies all 3. now i know very little about 40 cal so who better to ask than members of this forum. I know 45-70 is the most versatile of the 3 but i do see 444 a bit cheaper (when it comes to rifles on gunbroker). Perhaps you guys can help me out. I will be looking to get a 22' inch barrel. Not sure about 18.5 one as i am not looking for a bush gun since i do hunt in NY and most shots are between 60-150 yards. so ballistics are important to me. thanks guys

[Scorch]

450 Marlin is loaded to hot 45-70 levels, most commercially loaded 45-70 is loaded down to accomodate the old guns like the Trapdoors and such. 444 Marlin is a 44-caliber cartridge based on a rimmed standard head size cartridge, with ballistics surpassing those milder 45-70 loads mentioned above. Any of the 3 will cleanly take a deer out to well beyond 200 yds and then some, their shortcomongs are trajectory and recoil.

[Ultra12]

ok....but which one :confused: to choose

[tjh]

I would choose the 45/70 . easier to find ammo ,more ammo selection .
From light loads to heavy loads ,it will take anything in North America.
The 444 is a good round but most .429 cal bullets are made for the 44mag .

[JiminTexas]

450 Marlin comes close (within 200 fps) to 458 Win Mag at least in muzzle velocity, but don't shoot it if you have any loose fillings. 45-70 is versatile in that there are a great number of loads for it. 444 Marlin is a poor attempt to get 45-70 performance in someything with "Marlin" attached to it. For deer, you will be way overgunned with any of the three of them. If you want to go larger bore try the .35 Rem. The Marlin 1896 also comes in that caliber. It's a much better choice for deer and black bear and wont hurt you when you shoot it. You could also try an older gun in 358 Win.

[Lemmon]

Many years ago I bought a Marlin 444 w/ a 24" barrel. The only round available at that time was the 240 gr and accuracy was terrible. I found that the Hornady 265gr was very accurate with IMR 4198 powder. If I had a choice today it would have to be the 45-70 as you can find the ammo almost anywhere and I am sure it is very accurate also. My 2cents.....

Lemmon

[BIG P]

My 450 Marlin has heavy recoil & is hard on parts had it 3 years been to the repair shop 3 times FTF OR CYCLE not what u want in the bear woods My money would go on the 45-70 just MO.MY 450 has less than 70 rounds fired.

[jmortimer]

.45-70 essentially same power potential, a lot of history, and more choices - more gun choices and more ammunition choices from low power 405 grain Remingtons to Buffalo Bore or Garrett Cartridges.

[swsurgeon]

I like the 444 but I own several 45-70s in both lever and falling block actions. As noted above, it can do anything the 444 or 450 can do, while being more versatile.

If you buy the Marlin 45-70, budget for the Wild West Trigger Happy Kit. It makes an enormous difference. You'll probably also want their Bear Proof Ejector.

[darkgael]

450 Marlin = 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps.
458 Win. = 350 grain bullet at 2500 fps. (and 500 grain bullets at 2100fps.)
The Marlin is a powerful round but ....close? About as close as the 45/70.

45/70 Gov't = 350 grain bullet at 2100 fps - but not for all actions.

Pete

[Kreyzhorse]

I would choose the 45/70 . easier to find ammo ,more ammo selection .

+1. You can find 45-70 Gov't most any place and there is a much bigger selection of ammo. As mentioned, if you have a modern gun like the Ruger No. 1 you can shoot everything from mild to African big game hot. The 45-70 can do virtually any thing you want it to do.

[jmr40]

45-70.

The rifle may cost a bit more, but ammo is easier to find and it is more versatile. The 444 ain't bad. If I already had one I wouldn't trade it for a 45-70. The 45-70 is much easier to find than 450 Marlin ammo and can be loaded to about the same levels if you want the hot loads. Standard level 45-70 loads are just fine for most uses.

[natman]

ok....but which one to choose

How about some info so we can make an intelligent recommendation?

Do you hunt? What game? How long range? Do you reload?

[Old Time Hunter]

I prefer the .444, but mine are out of a Winchester(will handle quite a bit more pressure). Have a Marlin 1895 in 450, a 1886 in 45-70 (actually about nine in various actions in the 45-70). But when it comes to hunting, the .444 will do all the .45-70/450 will do, depending how you load it...and in an emergency pinch, I can use .44 Mag from my side arm out of it.

[ehb86]

The .45-70 is so versatile, it seems hard to beat unless you have strong reason for another. As in, you have access to a bunch of ammo, or already have the rifle, etc.

[mapsjanhere]

I shoot the 450 Marlin in a Browning BLR. I do wish there were "trapdoor level" cartridges available on occasion ;).

[Ultra12]

"
ok....but which one to choose
How about some info so we can make an intelligent recommendation?

Do you hunt? What game? How long range? Do you reload? "


i do hunt in NY and would like to try bear ( the reason for this gun) range is usually 60-150 yards( mentioned before in previous post) and no i do not reload

[mapsjanhere]

As a designated bear gun, the 450 Marlin is a good choice. You want the power in that case. And 450 Marlin is as easy to find as the ++P 45-70 ammo.

[MLeake]

Depending on your pricepoint, WildAlaska makes variants of the Marlin Guide Gun in .457 Magnum, which is a very hot load. The rifles will also shoot regular .45-70 loads. So, if you want big power, plus .45-70 versatility, you might want to check wildwestguns.com.

[Abel]

Deer & Black Bear are handily killed every year with the good old 30-30, out to 150 yards. So, it would stand to reason that a 444, a 450 M, or a 45-70 Gov. would all three do the job and then some. If you can find a 444 for the better price, go for it.

[mapsjanhere]

At 150 yards I have no problem shooting at the bear with a 30-30. It's at 15 yards that I want the 450!

[kemassey]

I have a marlin 1895 classic in 45-70. I really like this rifle. Recoil isn't to bad. Ammo is readily available. The other two sizes are about the same price as the 45-70.

[grubbylabs]

I just got a Win 94 in 444 and I love it, but if you don't reload you may find more ammo selection with the 45-70 as it seems to be more popular. However Hornady's LeverEvolution for the .444 seems to be readily available and is quite accurate. But I already reload for a 44 mag so ammo is not a big issue for me, all but the brass and certain bullet profiles are interchangeable.

[ipscchef]

If it helps, I would strongly reccomend the 45-70 over the other two mentioned rounds, especialy if you are going with a lever gun.
I will give you my humble opinions.
First, for what you say you want the gun for, Northeastern Hunting at your specified ranges, the 45-70 has several factory loads that will fit your needs as good or better than any of the others. My favorite, and I am sure many others being the good old Remington 405gr. Jacketed Soft point load, or .405JSP, at around 1300fps, give or take, it is an excellent load for anything in your area out to your 150 yards- as you specify, and a bit more depending on your skill and how you have the gun sighted. That load by itself will more than satisfy your requirements. Whether it is called a "Brush Gun" or not has nothing to do with what you are talking about in my opinion. The Marlin Guide Gun in 45-70 is all you ever need to fit your requirements and much more, for that matter. You also have many, many factory load options, as in the "Leverlution" that would give you a signifigent increase in "Point Blank Range"- that is the distance that you can hold your sights " Dead On", or "To Point of Aim" without having to use holdover to compensate for bullet drop.
There are also much more powerful loads, from Cor-Bon for example that will turn your gun into a "Dino-Dropper" if you should feel the need. As far as cost of ammo, I think that you will be able to buy suitable 45-70 ammo for as inexpensive as anything else, and in my opinion you will find it much less expensive than the others.
As far as the price of the rifle itself, does the saving of say $50.00 Dollars or so matter when you are purchasing something that will last many decades? I am in a great financial bind myself right now, being as I am disabled at the age of 53, but try to envision yourself in say, twenty- five years saying, boy ain't it great that I saved a few bucks on that gun a couple of decades ago, look what we have done with that money in the last twenty-five years!
As another poster rightly mentioned before, the .444 uses .429 bullets and there is just not the same variety out there as is for the 45-70. And Brass and factory ammo for the .450 is not nearly as readily availible for for it either. In my humble opinion the 45-70 will still be hugely popular when the aforementioned rounds are fodder for the articles about "Obsolete Rounds" in the Gun Mags. And yes I have a grat personal respect for the round, I hope it did not show through in any way:o. But those are the facts as I see them.
Best of luck with your new gun, whatever it may be!
As always, JMHO, and YMMV.
God Bless,

Willy Henderson

[44 AMP]

at up to 150yds. Piece of cake for any of the rounds you mention, provided you do your part. At the longer range, you will have to practice a bit, to learn just how much to compensate for the drop, but it is something easily done.

The bear aren't armor plated monsters, nor are they old Ep the grizzly. or Alaskan brownies. The largest black bear ever taken in NY (at least through the 1970s when I lived there) was a 600lb monster. A real freak of nature, as black that get to 400lbs are giants and extremely rare there. And the whitetails are not as big as western muleys either.

I would give the .45-70 the nod, because of its versatility in factory loaded ammo. Since you don't handload, you will want something with as many choices as practical. The .45-70 standard factory load is a 405gr JSP at black powder speeds and pressures. And it will do a fine job on the deer and bear in your area, at the ranges you hunt. Also doesn't kick too bad in a rifle with decent weight, like a Marlin.

For longer shots, the new Hornady Leverevolution ammo with its pointed (plastic) tips makes for a little more flat shooting, and is safe in tube magazine lever guns. There is also a 300gr factory loading with a bit more speed, and the specialty heavy loads from Buffalo Bores, and a couple others is you feel you need the most power possible.

The drawback to the .450 Marlin is that there are no factory "light" loads. Its full "magnum .45-70" power, or nothing, unless you handload. Same for the .444. Regular .45-70 ammo is pretty common, and while not the cheapest stuff, it is still cheaper than many less common rounds.

The reason the .444 rifles are going a bit cheaper than .45-70 on Bunbroker is the popularity. Both carry the same MSRP brand new.

Your call, but to me, the slighly lower price of the .444 means nothing. Compare ammo costs, on Midway right now, Rem factory .444 is about a buck a box more than .45-70, but both are in the mid $30 range. Buffalo Bore heavy stuff is about $20 more in .45-70 and $30 more for the .444. The .450 is right in there as well. IF you like to shoot, handloading is something worthwhile for these big bores.

And even if you don't handload, save your brass. It is worth money. Somebody will be happy to buy it or trade you for it.

I've been shooting and reloading the .45-70 for nearly 30 years, and I think its a great round, and would choose it over the others, even if I had to pay a few bucks more for the rifle.

[jammin1237]

45-70 in a MODERN rifle... old trap doors cant take the heat... 45-70 has more brass, more bullet selection, more reload data, and is more cost effective than any of the above... here is a video i just took at the range this last weekend, 50 yards as fast as i was comfortable with in a 45-70 24" barrel for fun:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF9iWhL6G8M

-- get a guide gun if you are not worried about the long shots...


cheers

[Hoskins]

Below I have listed the velocity/energy, trajectory, & Hornady's HITS data for all 3 rounds mentioned. All data was compiled by using Hornady Ballistics charts from thier website & all rounds listed are thier LeverEvolution rounds.

444 Marlin 265 gr. FTX= HITS:1071... Velocity/Energy: MUZ- 2325/3180, 100yds- 1971/2285, 200yds- 1652/1606, 300yds- 1380/1120. Trajectory MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -1.4, 300yds -18.6


45-70 Govt 325 gr. FTX= HITS:1242... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2050/3032, 100yds- 1729/2158, 200yds- 1450/1516, 300yds- 1225/1083. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -4.1, 300yds -27.8


450 Marlin 325 gr. FTX= HITS: 1355... Velocity/Energy: MUZ-2225/3572, 100 yds-1887/2569, 200yds-1585/1813, 300yds- 1331/1278. Trajectory: MUZ -1.5, 100yds +3.0, 200yds -2.2, 300yds -21.3

***My question is that if why is it being said that the .444 Marlin is so inferior to the 45/70 GOVT & the .450 Marlin? The trajectory for the .444 is better than the other 2. The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy. However, the .444 falls short on the HITS chart (basically what type & weight of an animal you can use a certian round for as compiled by Hornady).

This isn't an attempt to argue, it is my attemot to learn. I always figured that the big bore 444 would be plenty enough gun for any game in North America and some of the bigger game in Africa...obviously not the monsters out there as far as elephant, lion, etc...

[Old Time Hunter]

My question is that if why is it being said that the .444 Marlin is so inferior to the 45/70 GOVT & the .450 Marlin? The trajectory for the .444 is better than the other 2. The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy.

Too many people base their opinion on perception and not on reality. As I alluded to earlier, I have all three and have used them all. They will all work for almost anything from squirrels to elephants, but to me the .444 does everything the others do without the abuse (especially the .450 in a guide gun)...And I can use .44 Mags from my side arm in a pinch.

[Hoskins]

Too many people base their opinion on perception and not on reality. As I alluded to earlier, I have all three and have used them all. They will all work for almost anything from squirrels to elephants, but to me the .444 does everything the others do without the abuse (especially the .450 in a guide gun)...And I can use .44 Mags from my side arm in a pinch.
Yes sir, that is what I thought. The .444 packs plenty of punch on the back end...it basically kills on both ends of the rifle. The ballistic data shows that it is capable, I just didn't see what made the others soooo much better than my trusty Marlin in .444. It is going to be my go to bear rifle & from reading this thread I wanted to make sure that I was good to go in my thoughts.

[Alden]

If you plan on only shooting 60- 150 yards you might want to consider a simple .44 magnum. It's much cheaper to shoot and there are a lot of ammo choices.

It's going to be slower out of the barrel than a 45-70, but much less recoil for you to deal with. The muzzle velocity of a 240 gr from a 7 inch hand gun barrel is about 1550, so from a rifle of at least 16 inches you should get another 150-200 fps. That would give you plenty of energy for a kill on a black bear at 60 yards, probably enough at 100, but after than it will fall fast and lose energy.

I think 150 would be pushing it, but are you planning to scope this gun? I mean, I honestly couldn't hit anything past 100 yards (and that's from a solid rest) without a scope.

[Ultra12]

thats all great but it looks like the data is for 444 Marlin 265 gr and 45-70 Govt 325 gr. so i am not sure if the comparison is really a good one. check out this one, its 200gr compared to 300 but a bit of a diff picture

[Alden]

No, the 444 or 45-70 are quite a bit more powerful than the .44 magnum. I went through the same dilemma you are going through and decided that for where I hunt and within my budget the .44 magnum made the most sense.

Are you going to shoot at 150 yards without a scope? If so, I would suggest a good peep sight on the rifle, and 20/20 vision.

[Usertag]

The Right Rifle For You is the, Marlin Classic Model 1895. It is A Lever-Action, Side Loading Rifle. It Has A Four Round Tubular Magazine. Plus One in the Chamber. It Has A 22" Inch Barrel And It Takes A "45/70 Gov't" Round. It Weigh's 7.5 Pounds. And Has A Overall Length of 40.5 Inches. And the Stock is Made of American Black Walnut. And About the Ammuntion. Just Get 45/70 Gov't. It is only a Little Bit More Expensive. And It is Widely More Avaliable. Then They other Rounds, You Were Talking About. Hope to Help

[grubbylabs]

Ultra12 you compared a 44-40 to the 45-70 according to your screen shot there. So yes it is going to be quite a bit different.

[kimbershot]

i vote 45-70. i have a contender 16" carbine. i load farter loads all the way to knock the fillings out loads. basically, a pleasure to shoot lee 350-405 cast behind trailboss. very accurate for me out to 100yds. even though i know it is effective farther out. :D

[jmortimer]

Don't get carried away. "The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy."
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.)
Heavy .444 Marlin Ammo - 335 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(2,025fps/M.E.3,049 ft.lbs.)
Heavy 450 Marlin Ammo - 430gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1,900 fps/M.E. 3,446 ft. lbs.)
The .444 is a third choice at best if we are talking about dangerous/large game ammunition. Even though it is an exageration, it's like saying a .223 is "more gun" than a "Ruger Only" .45 Colt load. One could kill anything on the earth and the other is best suited for varmints. Heavy .452 bullets will blow the doors off smaller .429 caliber ammunition. There is a world of difference in shooting a 325 grain expanding bullet and a LBT 430 grain hard cast. The .45-70 will easily kill anything on earth. That is the beauty of the LBT hard cast bullets - a large destructive meplat on bullets that penetrate like nothing else (except Punch bullets but even then it is close.)

[swsurgeon]

I use those heavy Buffalo Bore 430 gr. loads out of my 22" 1895 45-70 and it is very accurate with them. Recoil is stout but manageable. If I really want to hear the metal gong ring loudly, I'll launch one out of my 34" barrel Shiloh Sharps Long Range Express. That rifle is heavy enough that they feel almost like a regular 45-70 load out of the 1895.

[BusGunner007]

I looked at all those cartridges mentioned and did choose the .45-70 GOVT.
My choice for the rifle was equally as 'bland', some might say.
Marlin 1895 w/22" bbl.
Added a DRC Large-lever loop; might add a couple of other things for the ejector and trigger, but otherwise it's a plain-old .45-70 lever-action ( with the crossbolt safety; fine by me as it works like some of my other rifles... ).

This ammo is excellent for this cartridge; worth the read, for sure...
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/

My particular choice in the launcher: top of photo
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0710.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCN0705.jpg

Once I decided on this rifle/cartridge I was VERY happy with it.

[swsurgeon]

Always wanted to try those huge 540 gr Garrett Hammerheads.

[jmortimer]

Garrett Cartridges and Buffalo Bore are both at the top of all ammunition manufacturers. I wish Mr. Garrett would put out a .45 Colt load - he has his reasons but to me it is no different than max 45-70 loads - there are "old" guns out there in both calibers.

[Hoskins]

Don't get carried away. "The .444 Marlin beats the 45/70 in velocity & energy."
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.)
Heavy .444 Marlin Ammo - 335 gr. L.F.N.-G.C.(2,025fps/M.E.3,049 ft.lbs.)
Heavy 450 Marlin Ammo - 430gr. L.B.T. - L.F.N. (1,900 fps/M.E. 3,446 ft. lbs.)

I'm not getting carried away...that's why I said I wasn't arguing, rather just learning. I was simply saying that the 444 isn't as inferior as some make it out to be! I'm comfortable that it has enough power to put a good hurting on a big ole brown bear!

[BfloBill]

I hunt in NY and I love my .450. I have to admit if you want more versatility in loads 45-70 will give you more choices, but the Leverevolution ammo I use does everything I ask it to.
I would pass on the .444

[natman]

i do hunt in NY and would like to try bear ( the reason for this gun) range is usually 60-150 yards( mentioned before in previous post) and no i do not reload

Ok, that helps a lot. Here are the options:

444 Marlin. Ammunition availability for this has gone down lately. My favorite factory load for this was the 265 grain Hornady flat point from Remington. This load is no longer available. In fact I can't find any 444 Marlin ammo on Remington's website, although that may be a function of the website's poor design.

Hornady has an excellent 265 gr. LeveRevolution round, but there are issues with it in older 444 Marlin guns with the slow 1-38 rifling twist. New 444s have a 1-20 twist and this would be a great load in one of them.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7980&categoryString=653***690***

45-70. The 45-70 has been around for more than 125 years and has been chambered in a large variety of guns of varying strength. Most factory ammo in 45-70 is loaded very softly out of respect for these legacy guns. A notable exception is the Hornady 325 grain LeveRevolution load. There are other hot loads available from the various "boutique" loaders such as Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7546&categoryString=653***690***

450 Marlin. The 450 Marlin is very similar to the hotter loads in 45-70. The difference is that there are no soft loads because there are no legacy guns to worry about in this chambering.

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=8954&categoryString=653***690***

So, given that you plan to hunt black bear, not grizzlies, I'd recommend a new/recent 444 with a 1-20 twist and the Hornady 265 grain. The hot loaded 45-70 or the 450 Marlin add an entire new dimension of power over the 444, but you don't need the extra power and probably don't want the recoil that it brings.

[Old Time Hunter]

Here are a couple of good articles on the .444, read them before you make decision:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444_misunderstood.htm

and,

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/444.htm

'course from what has been written in this thread, fifty years of experience isn't enough.

[44 AMP]

Another thing about the .444, its heaviest slugs top out just past where the lighter .45 cal slugs begin.

Now, a lot of the lever guns in .45-70 won't handle the length of the heaviest .45 cal bullets, but they will all handle slugs in the 400gr range, and some will feed the 500gr if loaded right. While the .444 is slightly faster and flatter shooting (although at ranges comfortable with the guns its not a huge difference) the .45s are throwing a slug 25% or so heavier.

I have a couple slugs a friend gave me that he had dug out of an old tree I had shot at. 400gr hard cast, and two FEET deep in the wood. The 265gr .444 just isn't up to that. Now, you (and I) don't really need that much penetration, but its nice to have, even if you don't need it.

I'm not badmouthing the .444, its a good gun. I just think that the .45-70 with modern guns and ammo, is a better one.

[Hoskins]

No doubt & agreed that the 45/70 and .450 is a more powerful gun but I do feel the .444 is plenty capable.

[rodwhaincamo]

All 3 will do the job well. You wouldn't go wrong with any of them.
Ammunition availability and cost ought to be your main concern since you do not reload. Therefor I'd suggest, as many others have, the 45-70.
As for me, I'd go with the 444 as I have a 44 mag and will be reloading.

[Hoskins]

agreed w/ the .444 Marlin. My dad bought me my Marlin 444 when I was 15 years old. Would love to have a 45/70, but hey... my .444 is plenty capable of killing anything w/n the lower 48 states.

The biggest game I probablly will ever hunt is Elk and my Win MOD 70 in 7mm REM MAG is reserved for that (after I finish twealing & accurizing it). The most dangerous game I'll most likely hunt is Black Bear and the .444 &/or 12 gauge slugs will be utilized for it.

However, I'll let the .444 loose on some deer from time to time.

[opscwo]

There is a wealth of great data posted here. My results with both a 444P and a 45/70 guide gun are the 45/70 has more facory offerings and is softer to shoot, but with handloads the 444 does everything I need it to do.

[Alaska444]

I have a .444 Marlin and love the gun. It is not only accurate, but loaded with Buffalo Bore 335 gr bullets, it is quite deadly as well. Most discussions of the .444 completely ignore the up to 400 gr bullets folks have used in handloads as well as the Buffalo Bore 335 gr. With the 1:20 twist of the newer Marlins, it will get the job done.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

[Webleymkv]

I would go for the .45-70 for reasons of versatility and ammo availability. .45-70 is loaded by nearly every major ammo maker and I've never been in a store which stocked .444 Marlin and/or .450 Marlin but did not stock .45-70. .45-70, in factory loadings, will also handle a much broader range of bullet weights and/or power levels than .444 or .450 will

The reason, you see, that the .450 Marlin was introduced was so that the big-name ammo makers (Winchester, Remington, Federal, Hornady, etc.) could load a .45-70 to its full potential without worrying about some idiot sticking the ammo in a gun that couldn't handle it (ex. Trapdoor Springfield). When stoked with boutique ammo like Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Garrett, or Double Tap, the .45-70 is every bit the equivalent of the .450 Marlin

The thing that drove me away from .444 Marlin is that bullet weight for this cartridge seems to top out just a bit over 300gr. To me, the whole point of a bigbore is the ability to use heavy bullets. 405gr, which is a middleweight bullet for .45-70, is substantially heavier than any .444 Marlin factory loading I've ever seen.

[Alaska444]

People like the .450 and 45-70 shooting 350 gr bullets at 2100 fps, yet appear to overlook the .444 shooting 335 gr at 2025 fps. Almost every discussion I have seen on the .444 limits its discussions to 265 gr bullets. Reloaders use 405 gr bullets with great success with the .444.

Yup, it is not easy to find .444 bullets on a store shelf more than 265 gr. It takes a bit of planning to wait 5 days or so for my Buffalo Bore which just happened to arrive today by chance. I don't have any problem believing I am adequately armed for anything I will encounter in the northern Idaho woods. The .444 is a great gun for those that are inclined.

If folks prefer the .450 and 45-70, so be it. I am entirely happy with my .444 and love the Buffalo Bore 335 gr bullets to boot. For those that reload, shooting 405 gr bullets is an option. Yup, no 540 Hammerheads, but I don't have the recoil of that bullet either. I have my .444 configured in such a way that I get about a 20 ga recoil out of it with a whole lot more bang on the other end.

I am quite willing to put up with some of the so called hardships of the .444 for a large bore rifle without the recoil of a 45-70. So, to each his own, but folks truly have misconceptions about this great gun. I wouldn't trade it for a .450 or 45-70 for the life of me. Great gun.

[Lever-Age 450M]

I have had my Marlin 1895M 450M for about a year and I do shoot it quite a bit on the range. Admittedly, 14 shots from the bench on the 1st time out resulted in ice on my shoulder and heavy bruising. I put a better pad and a muzzle brake on it and it is MUCH more usable. I shot 40 rounds the last time our, a few weeks ago, and was not even a little soar.

I tried lever-evolution twice, both of which resulted in Marlin Jam. I have not experienced that before or since with factory or hand loads with flat point bullets.

To tie it into the string, I have experienced a couple of issues with the 450 Marlin, but it is a sweet firing, accurate, and powerful lever action gun. I prefer it to the 444, but a 45-70 would be just as good IF you hand load. If not, go with the 450 Marlin.

[Alaska444]

I can't argue with the power factor of .450 and high end 45-70 loads, but I am happy with a 20 ga recoil and 80-% or more of the power you folks get out of your thumpers. A common .450 load is 350 gr bullets at 2100 fps. I am just shy of that with 335 gr at 2025 fps. For the added recoil you have to deal with, I will stay with my .444 that shoots like a 20 ga. Even my son likes it a whole lot better than shooting my .300 WSM and he only weighs about 150 pounds and is skinny as a rail.

Once again, folks disparage a great gun that has its place with the right bullets such as the 335 gr Buffalo Bore. No claims of being equal, but if you are recoil shy, this is a great choice if you configure it correctly and are looking for a large bore lever rifle.

[Lever-Age 450M]

I suspect you are quite right in your satisfaction with the 335 gr. slug in the .444. I hand loaded some 350 Gr. Fork FP bullets with 46.5 gr. Hogdon H-4198. The bullets are longer, but I am getting some great accuracy (2 1/2 " at 200 yards) and I do believe I am getting a flatter trajectory than with the Hornady 350 Gr. slugs. even though I could load more powder with the Hornady slugs. I am too lazy to get out of this string before I look, but I wonder how you would fare with the North Forks.

[Alaska444]

Dear Lever-Age 450M,

Thank you for the kind comments. I do not reload but I am aware that several folks with .444 reload up to 405 gr bullets with excellent accuracy and power. I have a medical condition that limits the recoil that is safe for me to handle. If not that for that, I would certainly consider the 45-70 with high end loads as my woods gun. On the other hand, I am now 53 so I suspect that I wouldn't want that much recoil anyway. The .444 with Buffalo Bore bullets will work.

I did notice that Hornady has an new high powered .444 265 gr bullet approaching 3400 ft-pds muzzle energy. I would like to hear what real life effects that this bullet has.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/wounded-grizzly-kills-hunter-remote-montana-14541945

My hope is that the upper limits approached with reloads will become available to us from the factory ammo out there. With the 1:20 twist in the modern .444 Marlins, larger bullets should be available from more ammo companies. Hopefully one day, the .444 bullet selection will put it in the large bore categories that the 45-70 and .450 occupy today.

[howiej52]

Build a 458x2 and beat them all

[JACK308]

the 444 is just a bigger 44 mag case you will have better luck with the 45/70.

[jgcoastie]

Given the fact that the OP started this thread over 10 months ago, I would venture a wager that he's already made his decision...

[Alaska444]

Today, 05:28 PM #58
JACK308
Senior Member

Join Date: July 10, 2011
Posts: 277
the 444 is just a bigger 44 mag case you will have better luck with the 45/70.


Criticizing a .444 Marlin is like an owner of a .300 WinMag criticizing an owner of a 30-06. The .300 WinMag gets about 20% more at the muzzle than a 30-06, likewise many of the 45-70 loads are 20% more than the .444. Yet, instead of recognizing the fact that the .444 gives a great bang for the buck with MUCH less recoil, just as the 30-06 gets the job done for many people that don't want the recoil of the .300 WinMag, instead, the internet threads on this subject are uniformly antagonistic towards the .444. Ironically, most internet threads are likewise antagonistic towards a .300 WinMag since the 30-06 does almost what the .300 does with more ammo available. Go figure!!

Folks, I ENJOY my .444 to no end. For a rifle with the recoil of a 20 ga the way I have mine set up, it gives me 335 gr bullets at 2025 fps out of the muzzle. That is real life power in my hands limited by my medical condition. I could buy a 45-70 but I CHOOSE not to, instead, the .444 is a GREAT gun.

For those of you that wish to denigrate this gun, go for it, but for those of us that know what it is capable of doing, sorry, but you folks simply don't know what you are missing. It is MUCH more than just an over sized .44 magnum. It is a great gun in it's own right and it never gets its due on these internet forums. Ammo is getting easier to find and higher quality. Hornady just updated their light mags and now with a 265 gr bullet at nearly 3400 ft-pds of muzzle energy, it is right up there with a .300 Win Mag in energy levels. I suspect over time, we will see larger selections of larger bullets at +p levels that will truly rival the 45-70 in many ways.

http://www.hornady.com/store/444-Marlin-265-gr-interlock-FP-Superformance/

Many that hand load get nearly 4000 ft-pds of muzzle energy out of the .444. Anyone should recognize that is serious business. In fact, anything over 3000 ft-pds of muzzle energy is serious business. So, go ahead and laugh all you want at my .444, it is a GREAT cartridge that is a real hard hitting big bore with very controllable recoil. Is it a 45-70? OF COURSE not, just as a 30-06 ain't a .300 WinMag, but So what? Just as the 30-06 does its job for what it is, so does the .444. I guess I should tell my friend who hunts elk with the lowly 270 that he has the wrong gun as well, except for the fact that he has taken about 50 in his lifetime to date, many with his .270. Shucks, I guess he should have had a .300 instead?

[Sport45]

the 444 is just a bigger 44 mag case you will have better luck with the 45/70.

I guess that makes the .45-70 just a bigger .45 Colt case. ;)

I was recently choosing between the .450 Marlin, .45-70, and the .444 Marlin myself. I reload, so I wasn't too concerned about availability of ammo on the shelves. I looked at the specs for the different rounds and saw that any of them would do everything I wanted the rifle to do so that was a toss-up.

I wound up buying a Marlin 444 with 24" MG barrel because it had a straight grip Monte Carlo type stock with pretty wood. :)

It has plenty of power for me, and with a Williams peep sight I can put five 265gr Hornady FP bullets through the same ragged hole at 50 yards.

If magazine capacity matters, the Marlin 444 holds 5. The .45-70's and .450's I looked at only carried 4 in the magazine. That wasn't a real concern for me, just something I noticed.

[JustinNC]

Got me wanting a 45-70 with all this talk. Always wanted a big bore lever gun. May have to put that on the list for next year!

[Alaska444]

Yup, 5+1 ammo on hand is serious woods medicine for those critters that might make your day one that you wished you had stayed in bed that day.

[natman]

For hunting in NY state with most shots 50-160 yards get the 444.

Yes, if you reload or buy custom ammo, there's no question you can get more power out of a 45/70. However, the 444 has more than enough for anything in NY. All that extra power is going to get the OP is more recoil.

[MLeake]

It seems to me, with regard to big predators, that muzzle energy may be important, but isn't nearly as important as reliable penetration. So, while the .444 is nothing to sneeze at, a 335gr bullet typically won't keep up, penetration wise, with a 405gr (or heavier) bullet.

[black mamba]

Penetration depends more on the shape and deformity of the bullet than on caliber and weight. All things being equal, a higher SD will penetrate further, but in the real world, bullet design (mostly meplat diameter) and bullet hardness make the most difference. There is every chance that a 335 gr .429" bullet could out penetrate a 405 gr .458 bullet at similar velocities.

[JACK308]

Hey Alaska seetle down! I'm not Criticizing your 444 I read it in a gun magizine.

[Alaska444]

No problem Jack308, I just get bit particular about folks criticizing a great gun. No it is not a 45-70, never said it was, but it will get your attention nevertheless. Truly, a lot of folks like a 30-06 in exclusion to a .300 win mag often due to the lower recoil but with excellent ballistics.

The same is at issue with the .444. It gives me a great large bore platform without taking my shoulder off every time I shoot. It just seems any time someone mentions the .444, it is a critical comment. In any case, if you can handle the recoil of a 45-70, go for it. Myself, I like the .444 a whole lot better. If I want something to thump my shoulder, I shoot my .300 WSM.

[Alaska444]

Today, 01:13 AM #65
MLeake
Senior Member

Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: NW Georgia
Posts: 5,721
It seems to me, with regard to big predators, that muzzle energy may be important, but isn't nearly as important as reliable penetration. So, while the .444 is nothing to sneeze at, a 335gr bullet typically won't keep up, penetration wise, with a 405gr (or heavier) bullet.


Penetration? Take a look at the penetration of the 335 gr Buffalo Bore against a large grizzly trying to break into a cabin. I would say that through and through is demonstration of enough penetration!!

This grizzly was killed at point blank range in self defense by Mike Leslie of Soldotna, AK. During a dark night the bear attempted to break through the cabin door. They tried to scare it off but the bear persisted in its attempts to enter the cabin. Mike shoved his .444 Marlin through a crack in the door and fired. The next morning the bear was found dead, about 50 feet from the cabin. The 335 gr. hardcast Buffalo Bore load had gone through its chest.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=page_view&p=ammo-reviews5

[Alaska444]

Penetration?

Reviewer: William Wallace
02/15/2010 09:29pm
Tim....

Wanted to let you know that the ammunition worked perfectly. Dropped a trophy Bison in its tracks from approximately 90 yards.

Heart/lungs from 90 yards. Hit him broadside. Big buffalo with a full winter coat. I've attached a picture. Bullet stayed inside the body and was recovered. I've made sure that Buffalo Bore has been represented on several of the boards that I checked in with.....many opinions about a Marlin 444 and its ability to take down a Bison. Bottom line....with the Marlin, Bushnell Banner Scope, and Buffalo Bore 335 grain bullets.....there is no argument in my mind.

A member of our party jammed his rifle and used my Marlin.....killed a deer with the same 335 load from 175 yards. Distance, accuracy, and stopping power.

Thanks!
William W.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156

[Sport45]

Alaska444,

Quit talking the .444 Marlin up so much. I may be wanting to buy another one and I'd hate to see the price driven up by demand. :)

[Alaska444]

Today, 05:57 PM #71
Sport45
Senior Member

Join Date: May 25, 1999
Location: Houston
Posts: 2,726
Alaska444,

Quit talking the .444 Marlin up so much. I may be wanting to buy another one and I'd hate to see the price driven up by demand.
__________________
Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.


+1. LOL. Not too much worry about that, but you are right, for those of us that know how good this much maligned gun is, so be it, I LOVE mine, and if folks want to believe it is a dud, go for it, I wouldn't give mine up for anything.

[Alaska444]

Not to stir up the masses, but here goes one more time:

Comparing to the hottest of the .45-70 loadings with a 500 grain bullet at 1650 feet per second yields 3020 foot pounds of energy with a recoil force of 47 foot pounds. Although the .45-70 can deliver a heavier bullet the actual energy is about the same. However, the difference in recoil is quite significant and could easily affect follow up shots. Granted a ported .45-70 barrel would minimize this but we're comparing non ported guns for the purpose of this discussion. Our contention is that no game animal is going to be able to tell the difference between a .432 inch bullet completely penetrating it and a .458 inch bullet doing the same thing.

The bottom line is that the .444 Marlin has finally become all it can be and it is a mighty fine and balanced cartridge for the big game hunter or someone looking for bear protection.

http://www.firearmssite.com/444_marlin.htm

[dgludwig]

I prefer the .444, but mine are out of a Winchester(will handle quite a bit more pressure).

I'm curious as to where this information (the Winchester action being stronger than, presumably, the Marlin) came from. :confused:

[44 AMP]

While always thought a good round, with the only .444 ammo being the Rem 265gr for decades, the .444 was not superior to the .45-70, and since both were available in basically the same Marlin, the .45-70 I always felt to be the better choice.

This "new" 335gr load appears to have given the .444 something it has badly needed for a long time.

[darkgael]

Maybe I missed it.....just went through this thread again......what did the OP finally buy? It's been more than 10 months and the season is upon us.
Pete

[Alaska444]

Shucks, this thread has a life of its own beyond the OP. The battle lines are drawn, choose your weapons. LOL

[JACK308]

This has been BEATEN to death! the 45/70 is still the KING OF THE HILL! and some people dont want to execpt that! yeah its slower but the bullet is a true rifle bullet at .459 vs .432.:D