AR15 for G/F

[stubbicatt]

I really hesitate to post this here, and I have been agonizing over this choice for months. My girlfriend would like an AR15, a rifle I really don't like. Every time I start to read a general informational type thread on the rifle, I become disgusted and back out of it.

Rather than go over the detractions and the reasons not to get one here, which would avail nothing, I would like to ask you guys, keeping it simple as possible, which of the M4 type rifles would be the best bang for the buck, so to speak. I have tried to dissuade her, to point her in the direction of other choices, but this is what she wants.

Must be light and have a flat top suitable for mounting optics on. A collapsible stock would be nice. I do not want rails, lights, horns, handles, lasers, canopeners, none of that stuff.

And budget is a consideration. It is bad enough I'm buying one, but I would only want the least possible outlay of cash for a durable, chrome lined barrel, 556 rifle.

And no, this rifle will NEVER see combat, it will not be dragged thru mud, or allowed to get filthy. The purpose is to shoot at cans and clays on the berm, maybe one day some shooting out to maybe 500 yards. It will have a dot type sight on it, and your recommendations for a hobbyist type red dot sight are also appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[LinuxHack3r]

http://www.colt.com/law/lecarbine.asp

Colt 6920

[GaryM&P]

http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/

[stubbicatt]

Wow. No way on earth I am paying $1,700 for one of these rifles, Colt, or whatever manufacturer, even if it is made of unobtanium. I resent even spending a single dollar on one of these pogo sticks.

The Bravo Company website has no prices either.

What about the S&W version? M&P something or other...

[m&p45acp10+1]

A DPMS, or Rock River sound more like what you are looking for as far as price is concearned. (Note I do not own an AR platform rifle.) I was looking at several different AR platform rifles for possible purchase. I bought a Savage Model 12 bolt action instead. I have seen several DPMS flat tops in the local shops ranging in price from $750 to around $900. They were all colapsable stock with standard hand guards (no tac rails on the hand guards.)
I may eventualy buy one just to have one. I have fired quite a few of them, and have no complaints about any of them as far as perfromance is concearned. Price is another story.

[ksstargazer]

Not sure where you live - Here in central Kansas, there are a number of dealers selling decent AR15's for anywhere from $600 to $800. I just got a used Bushmaster XM15 for $725 OTD. It was listed as used, but due to its shape, I wonder if it had ever been fired (was an ex-Law Enforcement rifle). At the last Wichita gunshow, there were quite a few Olympic Arms and others selling for $599. One group of these rifles were guaranteed for life by a local dealer. He said he would repair anything that would break on the rifle. I consider these rifle entry level AR's. After you become experienced with the rifle, you should have no problem trading or selling the rifle in order to upgrade. There is no better time to get into AR's. It is not my choice for hunting or personal defense but I had to get one at these prices. It has turned out to be a fun plinker!

[wnycollector]

Check out http://www.del-ton.com/ you can buy a complete barrel assembly (AKA upper) and a complete lower, pop in two pins and you have a complete ar-15 for ~$665+ the transfer of the lower to your FFL. Del-ton makes a very good quality rifle for the $$$. You can also add a nice pink handguard and pistol grip, thus ensuring that you will never sneak off to the range with her rifle;)

If you go the Del-ton route, you can order a custom barrel assembly and lower w/o a butt stock and save a few $$$ and then add this very nice :p tapco pink furniture set http://www.outdoorbunker.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=TPC-ZSTK09161-PINK-

[MMcfpd]

Lots of Bushmasters (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/60) $643-1462

S&W M&P 15 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/36_763/products_id/53496) $839 - no sights

Colt MT6731 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/140/products_id/36409) $972

[Technosavant]

I'd recommend DPMS, Bushmaster, S&W, Rock River, Stag... one of those. For your purposes any of them will suffice just fine. Stay well away from Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne- pure and complete garbage.

But you should be able to find something you like for under $900 that will work very well, and if you have dealers nearby with good prices, you might even get it closer to $700.

For a red dot, the problem is that there is not a huge list of less expensive ones that will actually hold zero; I'd recommend looking at Burris- not as cheap as the Chinese knockoffs, but more likely to provide good experiences than the Truglo/Famous Maker/BSA level of optic.

[10mmAuto]

S&W makes the best price/quality point of the "standard" ARs (not budget but not a super deluxe Noveske/LMT etc) in my opinion.

[riggins_83]

The S&W is a great choice!!!!

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss355/riggins_83/sw.jpg?t=1293309874


http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188133639.html

[10mmAuto]

Nice rifle, Riggins. I had the exact one you did with that same YHM rail. Now that I'm building an AR-15, I wish they sold uppers. I'd recommend them highly.

[RT]

You could just order a BCM or LMT complete lower and then let your GF decide which upper, grips, stock, sights, handguards, etc, that she wants on the rifle.

THis is the correct BCM website
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/

[ws6_keith]

The cheapest way to go with something functional is probably to piece it together, unless you buy used. Even then, you might not beat a deal.

Check out Model1sales.com Here's their page on 16" CAR uppers: http://www.model1sales.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=301

With no bells and whistles (no lightweight options either - which are available), $365 for the upper. Run down to your local gun store and buy a Plum Crazy composite lower complete for around $125. Done.

[Volucris]

M1S uppers are pure ****.


Get something that's actually made to run and has a lifetime warranty with all the proper testing done to ensure utmost reliability. I have no idea why you're so vehemently opposed to one of the greatest rifle designs in the world but it probably won't make any sense if you try to explain it.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y


Since she'll be target shooting she will appreciate the sight radius of a rifle-length gas system and the velocity for longer range target loads:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M16-Government-20-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-gov-20.htm
with their M16 bolt of course

Buy a stripped lower and build it. You can put this rifle together for $700 total. Buying a complete rifle means paying the 11% firearms excise tax to the cluster**** that is our government.


If you REALLY want to get her something made for target shooting while keeping the AR design you will want to evaluate your mechanical skills or find a gunsmith to put an AR together for you using a match barrel with properly headspaced bolt and a good 2-stage trigger from timney, geiselle, or american gold or w/e.

But you'll probably hate that idea too.

[Tim R]

Stubbycatt, It's OK to get a AR for your G/F. I used to think only real men shot a 30 Cal. I own 2 match AR's and wonder why I waited so long. They are fun to shoot, don't kick and are about 1/2 the money to reload match ammo for over a 308. I have not had any real problems with my AR's. After many matches I did have a trigger quit on me but having a spare trigger in the parts box quickly got me shooting again, but I was down a couple of hundred points.

A RRA, DMPS, Bushmaster, etc would all fit the bill. I would balk at a Olympic though. You might even think about getting a 2 stage trigger to make life a little easier for the G/F too.

[stubbicatt]

Thanks guys for the suggestions.

Volucris: Thanks for your input, and thankfully it doesn't matter to me whether my tastes are something you would understand or not, and I don't feel compelled to justify them to you, whether they make sense to you or not. I'll leave you with this thought, however: do you like black licorice? Some people really like it and some people really don't, but those who don't like it really abhor black licorice. I don't understand it, but then I don't have to, do I, to understand that they don't want any?

I like the idea of building a rifle. Perhaps I will take that route.

[ritepath]

I bought my AR for plinking fun, coyote hunting. My wife bought one for target shooting. If you're not LEO or competition shooter any AR will do. I love the platform so much I kicked my BAR to the curb for deer season this year in WV, and with a 6.8 upper I'm going to buy next spring I'll be using it in VA next year.

I put a 4x12x50 scope on the wife's AR she loves it, and I love to hunt with it. I set mine up with a little cheap red dot from primary arms, I've found that a no magnification optic is basically useless for the type of shooting I like to do, but for taking out and shooting with the family it's great.

The AR what's not to love...Light, handy, accurate, reliable, cheap to shoot, easy to put optics and everything else on. Want a target setup? build one, want a 7" SBR? build one, want anything build one. It's the Jeep owners dream come true.

When I want to have real fun I either pull out the Sako 22-250 or my Uberti barreled CVA single shot 308.

[DiscoRacing]

Get the pink one.... Not sure which brand it was... I seen one... was gonna get it for our lil girl. .... got her a Raging Bull instead.

[demigod]

Why would you talk her OUT of an AR? It's the optimal gun for a broad. My old lady LOVES shooting my Short Barreled ARs.

CDNNinvestments has Smoking prices on Colt 6520s. ($899) and the Basic M&P from smith and wesson is $849. If you have to have the flat top, get the M&P as the Colt has the A2 upper.

I'd buy either of those if I were looking for a complete gun.

[Volucris]

Thanks guys for the suggestions.

Volucris: Thanks for your input, and thankfully it doesn't matter to me whether my tastes are something you would understand or not, and I don't feel compelled to justify them to you, whether they make sense to you or not. I'll leave you with this thought, however: do you like black licorice? Some people really like it and some people really don't, but those who don't like it really abhor black licorice. I don't understand it, but then I don't have to, do I, to understand that they don't want any?

I like the idea of building a rifle. Perhaps I will take that route.

Yeah I hate black licorice. :barf:


Building an AR isn't hard at all. You'll want at the minimum a torque wrench and an AR-multi tool. Check the guides here:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=4



For a barrel I really really like the ones BCM makes in-house. Hand lapped and well-priced. The barrel is pretty much the most expensive part of the rifle.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-20-SAM-R-SS410-Barrel-with-Rifle-Length-Gas-p/bcm-ss410-samr%20brl%201.htm

Complete receivers are about $100, BCM M16 bolts are about $130, stripped lowers are about $70 these days, and a lower build kit with an A1 or A2 stock (recommended for a target rifle over collapsible) is about $100. PalmettoStateArmory has lower parts and stuff and Aimsurplus has cheap lowers and so does surplusammo.com.

Then you can get RRA 2-stage triggers NIB for about $80 on gunbroker from major sellers. Oh and gas tubes and front sight posts are dirt cheap. I'd just get a lo-profile one from MI for $25 since you'll be scoping this rifle more than likely.


As for scope mounts it depends on the scope and where you rest your cheek on the rifle. For people who do nose on the charging handle you'll want a cantiliever forward mount like something from Larue or BOBRO or if you're further back standard picatinny rings are fine.

[HorseSoldier]

Buy a lower at your local gun store -- manufacturer isn't so important, all the magic happens in the upper. Then order her a 16" lightweight (pencil barrel profile) upper from Bravo Company, slap a set of Magpul MOE handguards on it and buy a bolt carrier group and charging handle from Bravo Company or Brownells or where ever and you're in business with a nice, light handling carbine she'll enjoy running.

[ws6_keith]

M1S uppers are pure ****.

Can't say I agree. I have two, a 7.5" pistol upper (and we know how finicky those can be) and a 11.5" on my SBR. Both run great.

[MMcfpd]

For a trigger either see how she likes the stock trigger or go with a good quality aftermarket. Single stage versus two stage is really a personal preference thing. If you know in advance you'll put in an aftermarket trigger you can buy a lower parts kit without a trigger (http://www.adcofirearms.com/itemdetails_.cfm?inventorynumber=2103).

I'd avoid the lower end of aftermarket triggers like the Springfield rework and the RRA as they are known to have limited longevity. Many options exist from ~$125-300 from Timney, LMT, Geissele, American Gold, Wilson, CMMG, to name a few.

[Gehrhard]

I really like the idea of the pink furniture on a short, lightweight, barreled collapsing stock AR's. This is SUCH a light, handy, and balanced rifle!
Gehr

[Scorch]

AR15 for G/F
OK, send me the GF, I'll send the AR.

Most ARs are going to be pretty reliable, and they will all be pretty much the same (just different roll marks on the outside) especially since most of the sellers buy their parts from the same sources and just assemble them. So it all depends on how much care goes into putting one together. Find one you like, get it. What's so hard about that?

[bedlamite]

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-light-weight-p/bcm-urg-mid-16lw%20bfh.htm
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Magpul-MOE-MID-Length-Handguard-BLACK-p/mag418%20blk.htm
http://www.spikestactical.com/new/z/spikes-tactical-complete-lower-w-m4-stock-p-86.html

Add your choice of sights and a handful of P-mags.

[RockyMtnTactical]

What is up with you hating on the AR15? Keep it well lubed and it will run with the best of them. It's a small price to pay for all of the good that the rifle is capable of.

[Quentin2]

Get her a good one unless you want to be sorry later when you figure it all out. Or she does! I'd say a S&W is the lowest quality AR you should consider.

You might want to look at barrel profiles other than the M4 - a LW midlength is ideal but good ones may push you above a decent sale on S&W. (Which is a good reason to dive in, learn the AR platform and build one yourself.)

[christcorp]

If you want a plastic lower, you can get one for around $650. I wouldn't go there. I just bought, christmas eve, a S&W Model M&P15OR (Optical Ready flat top). Retail price is $1069. Sportsman's Warehouse sells normally for $949. Christmas sale for $749 ($200 off). Plus; S&W gave a military/Police Rebate of $100. So, my price will be $649. Definitely can't pass it up for that price.

You are correct that it's stupid to pay over $1000 for a rifle that's just for fun and plinking. But to tell you the truth; S&W is one of the oldest gun manufacturers in the United States. I would have no problem using the M&P15OR as a defensive weapon if needed. You don't have to pay $1500-$2500 for names. And you also don't have to be forced to pay $650 for a gun made out of used parts, poly-plastic lower receivers, and lower QC parts. You can buy a new quality AR platform gun from one of the most respected manufacturers in the country. S&W. Even if you can't get the rebates for military and police, $750 for the rifle is an excellent price.

I've own well of 150 guns in my life. Even though I sold a lot, I still have about 25 left. Quite a few are S&W. If you want an AR platform for your girl friend, you can't go wrong with the S&W line. Glad you realize that you don't have to spend over $1000 for a quality rifle.

Here's a picture of the one I just bought. Right out of the box.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pAnMozDYB05HKOJ_MQAS1Momf-6eS9QmnSjfNGUtLarENYzDlIWTQ6BPEUe7lRTQx6Tt0O02bEh3DyOY-Fao2Lw/swmp15OR.jpg?psid=1

[Quentin2]

Nice rifle, christcorp! And a great deal.

BTW I wasn't knocking S&W (worded it poorly in my post), just saying with the deals we've seen on S&W the last six months there's no reason to go with lesser brands.

[stubbicatt]

OK. So Smith and Wesson, like the one you show there, is the likely choice.

I reckon maybe 3 or 4 magazines and a red dot.

Which red dot?

PS Scorch, finding one I like and going with it leaves me without an AR, as in truth I do not like them. No. Not at all.

We went to a local gunstore and held the S&W flat top like what is just above here and she liked it. Nice and light she says. So I guess the quality is there, and she likes it the most of all of the rifles we held that day. I guess that's it then.

[Logs]

Check out CDNNinvestments.com they had the Smith AR for $599 after rebate. Before Christmas. Might call them. They also carry a ton of mags.

I would recommend against NC Star optic and an Aimpoint Clone for cheap optics. I have had both and NC Star would not hold zero and the clone light would go off when firing. Not worth the money IMO.

I have several AR's one with a Bushnell Holosite, Eotech, and Tasco Propoint Red Dots. Depends on what you like.


http://www.cdnninvestments.com/

[MMcfpd]

Right now Midway's Aimpoint Micro close out (http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=913115) at $299 is a hard deal to beat for a red dot.

[PaulGL]

How about a S&W MP15-22?

For $450 or so you can have a great plinking rifle built in a (nearly) identical M4 configuration.

Or, if you want more flexibility, you could go with a standard lower and a dedicated .22lr upper (cmmg for example).

This would give you a great plinker, with some room to expand down the road to 5.56 (or others).

[christcorp]

Look; I have leupold, burris, nikon, and a few other high end optics on my hunting rifles. Everything for my 30-30 to my 30-378. I do a lot of hunting. I also have reflex sights that I really like for some of my tactical weapons. Many of my sights cost well over $200. Some closer to $500. But I have to say, for my ar's, saiga, AK's, and some tactical type weapons, I have been 100% completely satisfied with a Tasco red-dot sight from walmart for $32. YUP!!! For a non-magnification point and click optic, for something like the flat top AR that you're probably going to plink at 100 yards with, the tasco works fine. I have 2 of them and they are perfectly fine. I am probably going to buy a 3rd one for the S&W M&P pictured above. I have sighted both of my others in on another AR and an AK, and after shooting probably 1000+ rounds through both, they are both still sighted in perfectly accurate.

Then again, I don't normally practice shooting with bipods, tripods, etc... looking for <1 inch groups at 100 yards. I'm a practical shooter. (20+ years in the military does that to you). I shoot for fun and to practice/stay proficient for hunting and worst case scenario, for self defense. I practice the way "Real Life" hunting and self defense will be. I practice kneeling, prone, leaning, etc... My objective is for hunting; the size of a grapefruit at 200 yards. For my tactical guns, like the M&P, practical practice is to consistently hit a paper plate size target at 100 yards without magnification.

Anyway, that's just me. For 100-150 yards, on the M&P, I am perfectly happy with a $32 tasco red-dot from Walmart for $32. I'd even go with iron sights, but the red dot gives me better aim in darker environments and quick sight acquisition.

[demigod]

Most ARs are going to be pretty reliable, and they will all be pretty much the same (just different roll marks on the outside) especially since most of the sellers buy their parts from the same sources and just assemble them. So it all depends on how much care goes into putting one together. Find one you like, get it. What's so hard about that?

You sure are knowledgeable about the AR!! You'd make a great member at AR15.com!!! :barf:

[Tim R]

demigod, pretty bold statement for the one you're talking about.

You sure are knowledgeable about the AR!! You'd make a great member at AR15.com!!!

I will agree there is some junk out there but if you stay with the main stream makers, Bush Master, RRA, Colt, DPMS, Smith, ETC, the rifle will run fine. If the price on a new AR a too good to be true, then most likley it is.

[christcorp]

If the price on a new AR a too good to be true, then most likley it is.

Generally speaking, this is quite true. But of course people need to look at "Used vs New", and "Retail vs Sales". As I mentioned above, I was able to get a S&W M&P for about the same price, ($649) brand new, that it would cost to get some junk. Hell, even to build myself a half way decent AR platform, would probably cost me more than $650. So definitely look out for some good deals. The same place I got my new M&P for $649, they had a Poly-Lower AR platform for $599. And if the M&P wasn't on sale, I might have considered the poly/carbon. I would trust Bushmaster with their Carbon-15; but I doubt it's going to be $599. However, there are definitely some garbage and good AR's out there. That's why forums like this exist. This and google. "Thank God for Al Gore Inventing the Internet".

Anyway, buyers must beware. But sometimes a price on a new AR can be "REAL GOOD", and it isn't "Too good to be true". But generally speaking, you are definitely correct. There are some pretty shady garbage AR's out there.

[TN94z]

ChristCorp>>>>Do you have a link to the S&W at Sportsman's Warehouse??

[christcorp]

Unfortunately, the sportsmanswarehouse website only lists items you can buy online. They don't sell guns via online. So they don't list them. But if you live near one, you can go there. Not sure if the sale is still on or not.

[TN94z]

Unfortunately, the sportsmanswarehouse website only lists items you can buy online. They don't sell guns via online. So they don't list them. But if you live near one, you can go there. Not sure if the sale is still on or not.


Ok, that's why I was asking. After looking online, I see there is one fairly close. Thanks

[christcorp]

You can get the century's, Double Star, Interarms, etc... for the $650+/- price range. You can get a little better quality and put it together yourself for about $700. But if you can find the M&P15 for around $750, that is truly your best bet. You can not get that level of quality, for that price, anywhere else. Even building it yourself will probably get that, or more. (Other than the inexpensive double star lowers, I can't find the quality of the M&P. And the Double Star upper with a complete bolt/carrier assembly, is about $460. Add on the cheapest lower, and you're at the $700 price range.

Granted, the S&W M&P isn't always on sale for $750. (Let alone an additional $100 off for a S&W rebate). But there are always decent sales coming around. Just need to be patient. maybe it's an S&W; maybe a Bushmaster. Lets not split hairs on a few dollars. A $750 Brand New S&W M&P is BETTER than a $650-$700 piece meal used/2nds build your own with low quality parts. Anyone who thinks that extra $100 is a "Make or Break" considering the quality comparison, obviously has OTHER FINANCIAL CONCERNS, and personally..... they really have no business spending $600-$800 on an AR15/M4 type rifle. This is not usually a person's primary self defense weapon for home or carry.

There are 3 types of gun owners. (some times, people are in more than one category). 1) Self/Home defense: They are usually fine with a middle road 9mm/40sw/45acp pistol and possibly a mossberg or remington 870 shotgun for additional protection. 2) Hunters: They could have long rifles, shotguns, even pistols. Obviously, they may also use some of these weapons for self/home defense also. 3) Hobbiests: Believe it or not, most AR/AK/military type weapon owners are hobbiests. Most self/home defense don't go buying pistols chambered in 9x18 makarov. Most self/home defense don't even buy rifles. (It's pistols and/or possibly a shotgun). Most hunters don't hunt with AR/AK/Garands/etc... Hobbiests however are usually more knowledgeable, and are able to double up their self/home protection with many of their "TOYS". I routinely carry my CZ-82 9mm makarov chambered pistol for concealed carry. Same with many of my "Military" guns for home defense.

Point is: When you're in the "Hobbiest" category, it can be an expensive category. You can put your self into different financial categories; but $100 difference between levels of quality isn't even an issue. If $100 between 2 obviously different levels of quality is a financial concern for a person; then they probably shouldn't be in the hobbiest world. They probably should be using that money for more important things. Like reducing debt; mortgage; insurance; food; etc....

So, if you can only get a quality AR/M4 platform for around $1000, then a $600-$700 Double Star or century can be very tempting. Whether it's a complete rifle or build your own. However; there are plenty of high quality manufacturers like S&W, Bush, and others that have some great sales and rebates on a continual basis. The key is to not do impulse buying. $750-$800 is very doable for a good quality AR/M4 on sale. That's only about $100 more than a lower model. Some do believe that century, doublestar, and many of the others are all using the same parts; and similar to those parts used by colt, bush, s&w, armalite, or even RockRiver. And if you think the quality is identical, then definitely buy the cheapest model you can. But if you recognize that there is a quality difference, then you can spend just a little more and get a much higher quality gun. (If you're patient and look for the deals). You don't have to spend $1200-$1500+ for a quality rifle. But you also don't have to settle for low quality if all you have is $650 to work with.