Bear/lion gun...

[toppermost]

I think the consensus on defense against kodiaks are a big fat .44 magnum....

Now, having said that, would any one be scared to shoot a .357 rifle at a ****** off black bear or mountain lion?

Thinking about buying a heavy caliber rifle - but I dont think the extra cost of .44 ammo can be justified given that: I will probably never actually SEE a grizzly bear outside of Alaska - which I have never even been to... :D

[556Isdeadly]

the 70 grn 5.56 has more energy than a 357 rifle, Very interesting. I wonder if the small diameter is just not enough for game or druggies.


Here's a link to the most comprehensive Ballistics chart I've seen http://www.rifleshootermag.com/balli...listic-tables/

[toppermost]

Excellent point. I kind want a lever action though... and I admit its purely for aesthetic reasons. :D

[556Isdeadly]

Oh yeah , They are awesome. I'd love a 357 repeater! Practicing shooting milk bottles back at the ranch, haha.

[Double Naught Spy]

I think the consensus on defense against kodiaks are a big fat .44 magnum....

That would be wrong. Why would you choose a pistol caliber when there are so many rifle calibers that would work better?

[Doyle]

I think the consensus on defense against kodiaks are a big fat .44 magnum....



Not at all. The consensus is that for a handgun agains Alaskan bears, a .44 is the absolute MINIMUM you want to carry. Most of the fishing guides there now have gone to .454 or .460 revolvers.

[Jim243]

Toppermost

I would recommend a Marlin 336C in 35 Remington, great gun and good short range caliber for bear, but I have always liked the 30-06 and it will do the job as well.


Jim

[Art Eatman]

I'd not worry a lot about the .357 on a cougar; they're pretty easy to kill, generally. But it seems to me to be marginal at best for bear because of thicker skin and heavier bones--and a wider body, as well.

And the issue with the Big Bears isn't so much killing as it is stopping. Stopping means using a "Right now!" cartridge, and the .44 Maggie is considered marginal for that.

[Drummer101]

Get a 45-70 and just leave it at that :D

[Rampant_Colt]

I think the consensus on defense against kodiaks are a big fat .338 and .375 magnum....

<edit>

Fixed

[700sage]

You really want a serious lever rifle for black bear or mountain lion? Buy a BLR in .325 WSM. You get large bullets fired at great velocity. Stopping power would be incredible. You could even hunt elk and moose with it.

[Rampant_Colt]

.325 BLM is an excellent choice. Albeit with hard to find ammo and a bit pricey..

For black bear and cougar, a Marlin 336 chambered in .35 Remington is a proven combination.

[SGHOTH]

If you want a lever gun I vote for the Marlin Guide gun in 45-70.

All the power you need in a maneuverable package. Any large game.

[precision_shooter]

I agree that .357 mag is not the right choice.

.45-70 or .444 would be good choices...

[44 AMP]

The .357 magnum fired from a carbine is very close to some .30-30 Winchester loadings in field performance, but not paper ballisitics. If you think the .30-30 isn't enough gun, then the .357 isn't, either.

The advantage of the .357 carbine is more power, more rounds, more easily usable range, and easier to shoot accurately at range than the revolver in most people's hands. And it comes in a package a couple inches shorter than the .30-30 class rifles.

Cougar are not big tough animals. But they are fast (cat, after all). Bear are a different story, and the big Grizz and Brownies are a whole 'nother book!

The best bear defense is your brain, telling your feet when to leave the area. Defense is not hunting, and lots of calibers that would do fine for hunting are not as good at defense, which involves stopping the bear ASAP! For that, you want big stuff. The biggest you can carry and use to a sufficient skill level. Too much gun for you is worse than not enough.

If you are only interested in defense, and you are willing to carry a carbine, consider a short barrel 12ga (pumps preferred, for dependability). Each round of 12ga slug has about twice the muzzle energy of a .44 magnum, and the mass of the slug has a quality all its own! Its not magic, but its tough to beat for short range punch. And defense against a bear means you are shooting at short range.

[toppermost]

Great point, re: 12 ga slug !!

[huntinaz]

I will probably never actually SEE a grizzly bear outside of Alaska -

You darn sure won't find them in Arizona! If this is mosly for a fun rifle, go with the 357. The odds of being attacked by a bear or cougar in AZ are extemely rare. I agree for lion it would be fine, bear on the light side. But come on, are you gonna pack this rifle every time you go hiking?

If you are intending to HUNT bear in AZ, then of course you should go heavier...like 30-30 or 35 rem or something. But for a fun gun you might as well go for the cheap ammo. That's what I think anyway.

[seansean1444]

i would go with a 45-70 marlin guide gun

[Volucris]

Having a large caliber rifle doesn't mean much if you're using inferior bullets. With bears you want maximum penetration and the ability to retain bullet mass and shape even after hitting bones.

Look into Barnes solid copper bullets. They are quite expensive compared to typical lead-core bullets but they will provide the best penetration over traditional copper-lead bullets in most cases. You can buy a relatively inexpensive handloading kit to make straight-walled pistol or rifle calibers with ease.

A .45-70 lever action rifle with these loaded safely warm:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=330121
is one hell of a defensive woods rifle.



But as said before, using your brain will keep you from ever needing to defend yourself from bears or lions.

[rr2241tx]

Given the OP's question, I'd say an 1895 Marling Guide Gun in .450 Marlin would be hard to beat. Unlike .45/70 which is generally factory loaded to be safe in Trapdoor Springfields, .450 Marlin is always a full house load. Avoid the ported version like the plague unless you enjoy closed caption tv way too much.

[556Isdeadly]

Browning Lever in 7-08 Might need 2 to drop a bear; would be easy with the quick action,

[fast-eddie]

I've hiked through Oregons dense coastal range with nothing but a small hiking stick, usually I'll carry a S&W 40 with FMJ. 99.9999999% you won't need anything to defend yourself, you will probably go your whole life and not see either bear or mountain lion (unless hunting for one).

Buy the rifle you want to buy, in the caliber you want. A Black bear hit with one or two 180 grn bear loads from a carbine (357 mag) will stop, they are far from bullet proof.

[darkgael]

I apologize for this mini-hijack but this comment caught my eye - don't get me wrong as I have a .357 carbine that goes into the woods as a deer gun - and so I wonder, not about it's accuracy but how the evaluation was made?
The .357 magnum fired from a carbine is very close to some .30-30 Winchester loadings in field performance, but not paper ballisitics. If you think the .30-30 isn't enough gun, then the .357 isn't, either.

Especially the "some...." qualification. Do you mean, simply, that it will drop a deer as nicely as a .30-30?
Pete
PS - nice to see that .44 magnum consensus edited. For a big bear - yeah....I'd want it stopped NOW.....before it runs me over.
When people talk about stopping, I think of this video - you may have seen it - that lion was stopped or the fellow he was charging was toast. This is the short version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yTNo36YOs

[grubbylabs]

If you reload then the .444 should not be a big issue since the only thing you will probably have to mail order is the brass. I looked at midway or natchez the other day and they had it for a 25.00 for a 50 count bag, that's the same as what I pay for 308.

[sc928porsche]

Ive always been a bit of a coward when it comes to game that no longer puts me on top of the food chain. The first couple of years I used an 06. But that stopped when I picked up a 300WM. I once shot a black at close range in heavy brush with a 44mag. Although the 300 worked well I still had a nagging feeling about it. Eight years ago, I picked up a 378 and now I hunt bruins with confidence.

[NWCP]

For bear the .338 Win Mag is an effective round. For a cougar it's overkill. As for a side arm unless you're in brown bear territory the .44 magnum would work as a backup with the proper loads.

[Lloyd Smale]

big difference in black bear and brown bear. No way i would hunt a brown bear with a 357 anything. THe 357 in a rifle is definately more powerful then in a handgun. Many compare it to a 3030 but in the field ive found a 3030 just has more snort. The 357 in a rifle is fine for short range deer hunting and in a pinch would take a black bear or hog but theres just better guns for the purpose. The 44 is hands down a better round for the purpose. Dont get me wrong a 357 rilfe will kill these animals and ive taken all three with even a 3220 but theres just no room for error if you want a good clean kill. If i had to hunt around brown bear id probably leave the 44 at home and take a 475 or 500 but then if i was getting charged i wouldnt want any handgun. A good lever gun in 4570 would be much more conforting.