Andrew Travers nominated as next head of BATFE

[Bartholomew Roberts]

The Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-st-louis/obama-names-anti-gun-extremist-as-next-batfe-head) has an excellent collection of many links detailing the past history of Travers, the special agent in charge of the Chicago field office of the ATF.

Suffice it to say that the Brady Campaign will be very pleased with this nomination.

[ClydeFrog]

I don't understand why so many people use the term; BATFE.
The ATF is a part of the Dept of Justice(DoJ). They refer to themselves as ATF on their own government website; www.ATF.gov .
Now the full name is in fact Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives but if they do not say BATFE why do so many others do it?

[kraigwy]

The ATF is a part of the Dept of Justice(DoJ).

No Sir, the ATF is part of the Treasury Dept, not the Justice Dept.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

No Sir, the ATF is part of the Treasury Dept, not the Justice Dept

The same legislation that created the Department of Homeland Security moved the ATF/BATFE to the Department of Justice. So they are now under the DoJ.

[jmortimer]

DOJ - ATF

[thesheepdog]

Oh ****E!!!!

[Standing Wolf]

Don't follow the link to the article unless you've got a strong stomach. It's another case of hateful leftist extremists failing in the legislatures and courts, and therefore trying to subvert the bureaucracy.

[pichon]

Just be grateful that the ATF or BATFE or whomever they are, are part of the executive and there for in charge of enforcement and are not involved in the legislative process. I am confident that the new congress will block all incoming restrictions on the 2A anyway. Two years down and I am surprised really, at the lack of attempts to pass a Brady type piece of legislation. We just have to wait out the next 2 years and we will be fine, not that I am that worried.

As long as you abide by the laws, which I do, the BATF should not be a problem. Just make sure that you stay out of the legal grey-areas.

[KLRANGL]

Just when I was having a good day too...

Pichon, while the ATF cannot enact new laws, they can (and have) change how those laws are interpreted and enforced.

[sakeneko]

Pichon, while the ATF cannot enact new laws, they can (and have) change how those laws are interpreted and enforced.

Exactly. :-/ I'm *very* leery of having this guy in charge of the ATF, and I'm not one of the conservatives here either.

[pichon]

Pichon, while the ATF cannot enact new laws, they can (and have) change how those laws are interpreted and enforced.

That is why I said to stay out of the legal grey area. Even if they enforce unfairly, the judiciary will take care of it and exonerate you if it really is on the up and up.

[DaleA]

Even if they enforce unfairly, the judiciary will take care of it and exonerate you if it really is on the up and up.

This is true pichon. It's how our legal system was set up and I'm all in favor of it. That said, I'm always frustrated that a difference in the interpretation of a law could get you detained (read locked up) and force you to spend money for bail, lawyer fees etc.

I want our laws to be clear cut and understandable by everybody, which, as pichon stated is the job of our senators and representatives in the legislative branch.

[stevelyn]

Even if they enforce unfairly, the judiciary will take care of it and exonerate you if it really is on the up and up.

Really? Ever hear of David Olofson? How about those folks in Waco? :mad:

I have absolutely no confidence in the federal judiciary of exonerating anyone put in the BATFEces' crosshairs.

You can't make just decision when the govt agency taking enforcement action has a history of lying under oath and manufacturing evidence.

[thesheepdog]

You can't make just decision when the govt agency taking enforcement action has a history of lying under oath and manufacturing evidence.


Very true! You can't be ignorant of this!

I have absolutely no confidence in the federal judiciary of exonerating anyone put in the BATFEces' crosshairs.


Me either. They will do whatever they please.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

That is why I said to stay out of the legal grey area.

This is an agency that wrote an official legal opinion saying that a 6" shoestring was a machinegun for legal purposes and stood by that opinion for several years until it sunk in just how ridiculous that letter was. I agree that you want to stay out of legal grey areas with the ATF; but it isn't quite as easy as you make it sound.

Even if they enforce unfairly, the judiciary will take care of it and exonerate you if it really is on the up and up.

Winning your case in court is like the way the Russians beat Napoleon and Hitler - it is winning in the same sense that burning all your factories and fields and retreating to the Urals to let the winter kill off a bunch of Germans is winning. Ultimately, you'll succeed; but it isn't going to be easy or cost-free.

I think the important thing here is that head of ATF is now a position requiring the confirmation of the Senate. So, short of a recess appointment, there is still a chance this doesn't go through.

[demigod]

Really? Ever hear of David Olofson?

Isn't Olofson that idiot from WI who put an A2 burst kit in his Oly and tried to claim it fired full auto because of a malfunction???

[demigod]

in charge of the Chicago field office of the ATF.

I read "Chicago" and knew this was a bad thing.:mad:

[ClydeFrog]

If you roll over to CNN's archives, you can review the big story they did about a ATF's special agent's disputes-labor issues with the upper mgmt.
The ATF seems to be a hotbed of fraud/abuse/waste. The CNN item stated the ATF gets more citizen complaints than the FBI & DEA combined!

The new ATF dir should pull this LE agency together and improve conditions but I highly doubt that will occur. :(

[demigod]

Oh yeah. There was that scandal about ATF agents over billing for worked hours in Iraq.

[Brian Pfleuger]

The ATF seems to be a hotbed of fraud/abuse/waste.


You could insert the appropriate acronym for ANY government agency and still have a correct assertion.

[Skans]

Now is the time to buy what you want.....what you might want in the future.....and lots of ammo to go with it.

We got ObamaCare through trickery and fraud. Don't be surprised if we get an Assault Weapons ban through that same kind of trickery and fraud bypassing the legislative process. I can think of at least of a dozen ways for BATFE's new director to screw all of us and unleash a bunch of government paid lawyers, who would otherwise be out of work and on welfare, to make life suck for gun owners. Just my 2 Cents.....and yes, this is directly related to guns.

[Tom Servo]

I think the important thing here is that head of ATF is now a position requiring the confirmation of the Senate. So, short of a recess appointment, there is still a chance this doesn't go through.
All the more reason for folks to get in touch with their senators, especially if yours is on the committee.

This could be a real lightning-rod for the freshman class.

[pichon]

Don't be surprised if we get an Assault Weapons ban through that same kind of trickery and fraud bypassing the legislative process.

Not possible, every law has to go through the legislature. Obamacare was a matter of getting it paid for and congress did see it and did pass it, unfortunately. Congress passes the laws and congress holds the "federal credit cards" (because lets be honest, nothing is paid for by the government with cash these days).

[Al Norris]

This thread isn't about guns, it is about a political process that may (and probably will) affect guns and gun rights.

It is therefore off-topic in the General Discussion forum.

It is also off-topic in every other forum at TFL...

However, because this is a story that has a very high probability of impacting gun laws and gun rights, I'm making the (occasional) exception and moving this thread to L&CR.

Off we go .......

[Brit]

Quote:
in charge of the Chicago field office of the ATF.

I read "Chicago" and knew this was a bad thing.



demigod;

posted the above! Do I ever agree!!!

[Tom Servo]

This could be a real lightning-rod for the freshman class.
Sorry if I looked as if I were venturing into pure politics, but I think the forces at work are relevant here. I spoke with both of my senators about this, and both plan to oppose his confirmation if it comes to that. One expects a hold on the nomination very soon.

Perception on both sides of the aisle seems to be that the appointment is a bit of back-scratching for a rather uninspiring candidate that just happens to be part of "the club." This is exactly the sort of thing the freshman class of conservative congressmen promised to stamp out, and I expect it to be an early and highly-visible cause for them.

I spoke with an agent from the Atlanta field division about him this afternoon, and she sighed and said, "we'll wait and see." The ATF mission the last few years has been more about punishing street traffickers and felons in possession than it has been about hassling dealers or enacting new restrictions. Furthermore, they are understaffed and overworked, and apparently, any new director will have his hands too full solving internal disputes and logistical issues to do much in terms of changing the agency's direction.

Let's not forget that the contours of the 2nd Amendment have changed completely since Truscott stepped down four years ago. Any new restriction the ATF tries to enact will likely lead to a legal challenge, and they know that. And, of course, S. 941 (http://www.opencongress.org/bill/111-s941/actions_votes) is still floating around in the judiciary.

Some think that this is a cynical, half-hearted attempt by a lame-duck administration to pass some sort of gun control (compare the current situation to 1968), but I wonder if it's even that.

[Skans]

Some think that this is a cynical, half-hearted attempt by a lame-duck administration to pass some sort of gun control (compare the current situation to 1968), but I wonder if it's even that.

So, does that mean I don't have to run out and buy that Para DSA FAL, PTR-91 and Sig 556 pistol I've been wanting???

[Tom Servo]

So, does that mean I don't have to run out and buy that Para DSA FAL, PTR-91 and Sig 556 pistol I've been wanting???
Oh, by all means! Especially since the first two ain't getting any cheaper. :)

[ADB]

This is exactly the sort of thing the freshman class of conservative congressmen promised to stamp out

Ha! :rolleyes:

lame-duck administration

Clinton, Reagan, and Eisenhower all got their asses kicked hard in their first mid-term elections. It didn't stop them from going on to win a second term in large landslides and continue to govern.

[Tomaz45]

ATF is not alone in it's use of the rules, nor dependant upon who the current appointee is in charge. I voice this as an OPINION. As the bureaucracies on all levels find their funding decreased, they move to a survival mindset...increasing fee and fines. Every agency that I know of, local, state, and federal is reviewing and adjusting, and the end consumer will pay the tab. We recently went through an FFL review and audit and passed without a hitch. The agent returned 2 days later to do it again, quite frankly looking for a way to pay for the audit. "interpretation of the rules" will find a way. Anyone dealing with "government" inspectors at any level, I believe will agree. The errosion of our rights via this use of " what does this rule mean", will continue and quite frankly, I am at a loss as to how to stop it. It has taken us 4 generations (think Woodrow Wilson then FDR), to get here and it won't be stopped in a 2 year cycle. Stay the course, use your vote and your voice, and let's begin to take our county back.

[stevelyn]

Isn't Olofson that idiot from WI who put an A2 burst kit in his Oly and tried to claim it fired full auto because of a malfunction???


Do you really take at face value the word of an agency that is known for lying under oath, manufacturing evidence and have no techincal standards for testing and evaluation of so-called evidence?

I sure as hell don't and until they get their collective chain yanked and reform their rogue agency I won't.

[Skans]

Every agency that I know of, local, state, and federal is reviewing and adjusting, and the end consumer will pay the tab.

If BATFE wants more revenue then I can solve that problem for them with one word: AMNESTY

All BATFE has to do is grant a 2 year amnesty for anyone to register or convert and register any full auto firearms. They could charge $1,000 for every Form 1 they receive. No one would complain. BATFE not only gets lots of revenue from Form 1's but prices of machine guns in general would drop back down to a level where those, other than super rich, can afford to buy them......i.e. more $200 transfer fees for BATFE.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Do you really take at face value the word of an agency that is known for lying under oath, manufacturing evidence and have no techincal standards for testing and evaluation of so-called evidence?

In this case, you don't have to rely on the ATFs word since all the parties to the dispute agreed the Olympic had M16 fire control parts in it. There was never any dispute on that matter - the main argument was over the definition of a machinegun. In any case, Olofson is probably not the guy I would use if I wanted to make a case that the ATF abuses its authority.

[brickeyee]

Pichon, while the ATF cannot enact new laws, they can (and have) change how those laws are interpreted and enforced.

They also have the power to create new regulations, and after being adopted (published, comment period allowed, etc.) these have the same effective power as laws passed by incongruous assembled.

[MTT TL]

Figure best case scenario he starts running his mouth, saying all the same things he said in Chicago and coming up with more BATFEisms. This will get people energized enough to get rid of him.