.38 SUPER

[Hig789]

Been looking at a rock island .38 super at gun shop. Wanting opinions on caliber. I know it was popular back in the day. What's everyone think?

[Archie]

Loaded to potential - not overloaded requiring specially reinforced slides and small rifle primers - it blows the doors off a 9x19 of the same bullet weight. The factory loads are a bit conservative, but as loaded is pretty much a top end 9x19.

I have a Colt Government Model that was built as a target gun. It is very accurate and delivers a pretty good hit at any handgun range.

But it calls, nay, screams for handloading.

[Hig789]

Was looking at it for HD. Low recoil. Something wife could shoot.

[Hig789]

Found on wikipedia. This is amazing. Why don't more people CC this caliber.



"The .38 Super is generally regarded as a well-balanced cartridge with a flat trajectory, good accuracy and capable of delivering plenty of energy. In fact most loadings will deliver more kinetic energy than most factory-loaded .45 ACP rounds."

[Eagle0711]

Used to shoot one, the newer guns are more accurate than the old because it now headspaces on the case mouth. They used to HS on the case rim.

Competion shooters like them because the gun cycles faster than the 45 ACP.
The second reason is there are lots of bases to make the comp. more efficent.

It's a 9mm on steroids. Shoots flatter than the 45.

[Jim March]

Won't quite match a 357Sig but it isn't too far off. Closer to a 9mm+P+ or something. Good round.

[Hig789]

Any opinion on guns? EAA makes a witness in it. I know colt does too but can't afford that. So EAA or Rock Island?

[RickB]

Springfield has made their Mil-Spec in .38 Super, off and on, so it's not always in the catalog. I had one for a year or two, and it was a nice gun.

[WC145]

I had a RIA .38 Super, great gun no problems what so ever, I traded it only because I got a great deal on a Colt .38 Super to replace it.

I like the cartridge for the reasons already mentioned above. It's very versatile of you handload and if you don't you can check out Cor-Bon's site they have several hot loads including 125gr @ 1350fps, a 115gr @ 1425fps, and a 100gr PowRball load at 1525fps!! Also, Georgia Arms sells a 125gr using a Speer bonded JHP @ 1350fps for a very reasonable (in this day and age) $2.50 for a box of 50rds. The 125gr Winchester Silvertip is loaded light compared to these, I clocked it at only 1166fps out of my RIA. Armscor and Aguila offer reasonably priced practice ammo and all the stuff I've mentioned is readily available on line.

[Steven_Seagal]

how easy is it to find ammo? how expensive is ammo?

[5.56RifleGuy]

Its hard to find hollow points.

[brickeyee]

Depending on your barrel you may be able to use 9 mm hollow points, but the extra velocity can also cause problems.

[pilpens]

Ammo cost and availability is my concern. For hand loaders, it may not be an issue.
For range practice and SD, would one be better off with factory 9mm or 9mm +p in 1911?

9mm is everywhere and cheaper than 38 supers of equal quality.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38SuperTo9mm.htm

[MK11]

I'd say yes. If everyone says the 9mm can do everything the .357 Sig does, isn't the same true for the .38 Super?

[RickB]

Both the 9mm and .38 Super are much more versatile than 357 SIG. The SIG round was designed to simulate the 125gr .357 Mag load, in a short-stroke auto, and it's great for that but there's not a lot of variety in bullet weights and styles, and you're down on capacity.

[rodfac]

Hig...I've got 20 yrs of off again, on again experience with a .38 Super on Colt's Combat Commander frame (the steel one). If you're looking for home defense or carry with a compact 1911 frame gun, I'd opt for the +P loadings in 9mm Luger. The sheer number of ammunition types alone is worth the slightly lower velocity...and in my experience, the factories are now underloading this cartridge so that it closely resembles the 9mm anyway.

A couple of thoughts come to mind with this caliber:

1. In standard barrels as made in the original Colt format, head spacing is determined by the rim of the case....it's a "semi-rimmed" cartridge. This has always been a problem since the rim sometimes does not catch the "hood" part of the Colt type barrel extension and head space varies greatly affecting accuracy.

2. That same Semi-Rim also causes cartridge stacking problems in a Colt type 1911 magazine. While it is possible to get the 9 advertised rounds into a magazine, in actuality, on my guns and with 3 different Colt factory magazines, they end up with the last (top most) round with it's nose pointed down into the mag...not conducive to good feeding. It's workable...but just barely and I had to smooth the feed ramp on my Commander to accomodate this BS design.

3. This caliber as originally loaded, shot a 130 gr FMJ at nearly 1300 fps as advertised by Colt. I've never had that kind of speed even from 115 gr JHP's let alone the 130's. Best accuracy was with the 130's tho, in my example. 1200 fps + at normal pressures are no problem with 115's if you hand load. The big factories, Fed, W-W, and R-P underload this caliber...less than 1200 fps through my chrono...can't speak to the Corbon or other speciality loads.
(I must point out that the "practical pistol games boys" have super loaded this round in an effort to achieve "major" caliber points advantages...a practice that has led to more than one "race gun" disassembling itself. If you want that performance, get a .45 ACP or a 10 mm. And as to the "extra" speed giving problems when using bullets designed for the 9mm...not in my experience...you're only going to get another 100 to 150 fps...and not even that in the factory offerings.

4. For the above reasons, this is a hand loader's caliber and a good one at that, offering lot's of room for exploration. For the average guy buying over the counter ammunition, a 9mm does just as well and you can find ammunition in 9mm any where on the planet you travel to.

5. Brass can be sometimes difficult to come by, especially if you want nickled cases...(easier to find in the grass and contrast nicely in the media in my case cleaner/vibrator). It's strong brass, noticeably more so than what I've found in 9mm. Good bullets abound for it as it's a 9mm in reality...115's work well and the speed is good.

6. Recoil is the same as a 9mm in similar guns. My Commander shoots .45 ACP, .38 Super, 9 mm and .22 LR, depending on the slide/barrel assembly mounted on the frame, so I can speak with some authority on this topic. In fact, a .45 ACP round of the 200 gr TWC lead type at normal velocities (800 fps) is about the same as a 9 mm or .38 Super at 1150 to 1200 fps.

7. Accuracy....if you get a "race" gun as made by some of the custom smiths, you can plan on a barrel that head spaces on the cartridge mouth as do the 9 mm and .45 ACP...a much better design. Set up that way and with a good barrel (Barsto, Wilson or one of the numerous custom makers) you can get 1.5" gps at 25 yds, slow fire from a sand bag position. Otherwise, and this includes most Colt barrels I've encountered, expect a .38 Super to give you 3" gps at the same distance...same as a 9 mm out of the box in any standard factory offering.

'Bout all I've got to say on this interesting caliber...PM me if you want load data...I've got a bunch; some of it chrono'd.

Regards, Rodfac

Pic of the 4-caliber Commander below. Rod

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii64/Rodfac/Handguns/Commander3.jpg

[WC145]

www.ammunitiontogo.com has ammo, FMJ and JHP, I've never had any trouble getting it from them.

[Hoss Fly]

Used to have a Colt 1911 in 38 Super & loved -
But these days cost of ammo is a downfall-
Of course reloading is the answer (not for me tho)

[RickB]

In standard barrels as made in the original Colt format, head spacing is determined by the rim of the case....it's a "semi-rimmed" cartridge.

I don't think anyone has made a Super barrel that headspaces on the rim in 25 years, so not a problem with anything but collectibles.

That same Semi-Rim also causes cartridge stacking problems in a Colt type 1911 magazine.

I have two Colt "factory", and three Mec-Gar 9-rounders, and a new Check-Mate 10-rounder, and have had no issues along those lines.

practical pistol games boys" have super loaded this round in an effort to achieve "major" caliber points advantages...a practice that has led to more than one "race gun" disassembling itself.

A buddy admitted to loading 115gr bullets at over 1600fps, back in the day. :eek:

I like the Super as a sub-caliber understudy for my .45, loading it to 9mm ballistics for IDPA. Easy to shoot, and for a handloader, relatively cheap. While the Super went through a real renaissance in the 1990s, due to it's popularity in practical pistol competition, with the acceptance of "major 9", nobody is building .38 Super raceguns anymore, and the cartridge will probably fade away again.

[bamaranger]

A pretty good article on the Super .38 ran in the Rifleman recently, past month or so ago, maybe a bit more.

[MK11]

My bad, I should have been clearer. What I mean is, if the .357 Sig doesn't have much advantage over 9mm, why would the .38 Super have any advantage over 9mm? Both 9mm and .357 Sig can fit in smaller packages than the .38 Super (and certainly come in more guns, if not bullet weights).

[carguychris]

What I mean is, if the .357 Sig doesn't have much advantage over 9mm, why would the .38 Super have any advantage over 9mm? Both 9mm and .357 Sig can fit in smaller packages than the .38 Super...
Both the .38 Super and .357Sig handily outperform a standard 9mm load. The margin shrinks compared to some 9mm+P+ loadings, but not everyone is comfortable subjecting their gun to extended use of +P+, myself included. +P+ fanboys poo-poo the .357Sig as a useless sacrifice of 2-3rds of magazine capacity, but this attitude is by no means universal.

The .38 Super is largely a 1911-platform cartridge, which is either its greatest strength and its greatest weakness, depending on whether or not one worships at the Shrine of John M. Browning. ;) For many years, .38 Super was the only commonplace way to obtain a higher-capacity, flatter-shooting, and/or lower-recoiling 1911. 9mm 1911s have only recently become popular.

[xm21]

While it is true that not as many places carry ammo for the Super .38 here in east Tennessee, it was easier to find during the recent ammo shortage than 9x19.

I have a 33 year old Colt Combat Commander with the bbl. that headspaces on the rim and it is very accurate with the Cor Bon 125 gr +p load and Win 130 gr +p fmj flat point white box loads.

I have shot about a thousand rounds through it in the 5 years I have owned it and have had one malfunction.It was a 3 point jam using Fiocchi non +p ammo with only 4 rounds loaded in the original Colt 9 round magazine and the first shot tied the gun up.I now use only Chip McCormick Shooting Star 10 round mags and have not had any malfunctions with these magazines.I have also shot the Cor Bon Powerball and Blue Glaser safety slugs and 125 gr +p Win Silvertip hollow points.

I love the pistol and the caliber but since it is more expensive to shoot and is 100% factory original it gets looked at and admired more than it gets shot.The Glock 19 I have had the same amount of time has more than 15,000 rounds through it and has lost a lot of its original finish and has a few scars.

[mavracer]

.38 super is a great cartridge esp. if you reload.very versatile. it makes a very good SD round. However IMHO there isn't enough difference between 9mm+p, Super and 357 Sig to matter in most cases.As such I'd concider my LW Commander 38 super or my BHP 9mm interchangable for carry.

[brickeyee]

I must point out that the "practical pistol games boys" have super loaded this round in an effort to achieve "major" caliber points advantages...a practice that has led to more than one "race gun" disassembling itself.

And the development of ramped barrels with much better case support than a standard 1911 setup.

With a ramped barrel case head blowouts are eliminated.

[tipoc]

More companies make guns chambered in .38 Super today than 10 years ago. EAA, Colt, Kimber, Springfield, S&W (makes a revolver), etc.

More ammo companies sell decent loads for the .38 Super today than 10 years ago. Wilson, Remington, Magtech, Fiocchi, Aguila and others fall in this category. They sell ball ammo and some hollowpoint in .38 Super which is useful for plinking and self defense.

Cor-Bon, Double Tap, Georgia Arms, Wilson Combat, Buffalo Bore, and others all produce good hunting or self defense ammo in .38 Super.

This is available at gunshows and on the net and if not in your local store can be ordered through them.

The Super is not necessarily better than the 9mm or the .357 Sig. It is just different. It's natural home is the 1911. The old cartridge is doing well. Like the 10mm and the 44 Spl. it has not faded away and hangs on because it does it's job well.

The round has no problems feeding from the factory mags.

tipoc

[Hig789]

The was a review in last months shooting times about the new Ed Brown .38 super. I would think a gun of this quality of craftsmanship shouldn't have the above mentioned problem. Whats the op on this? Gun is probably out of my price range but maybe someday. And does anyone know/own a EAA in this caliber.

[tipoc]

If a fellas gun has problems feeding the .38 Super it's because his gun has mechanical problems feeding. I've never had a problem feeding the Super in my Colt's. The Super has no inherent feeding problems.

tipoc

[testuser]

I have a Witness in .38 Super and like it quite a bit. In the past few years the EAA line has had issues with longevity in .45 ACP and 10mm models and some problems with the larger (post 2005) guns feeding 9mm and .40 S&W. It's difficult to find any bad reports about the the Tangfolio in .38 Super.

I recommend the Mec-Gar mags for the Witness. The company says they hold 17 rounds, but both of mine hold 18 in a full sized Witness with no problems. Self defense ammo is available from Winchester, Corbon, Buffalo Bore and Double Tap among others.

The .38 Super especially shines when loaded with 147 grain bullets. Load data in my Hornady book shows 147 grain .38 Super at 1150 fps. Double Tap is rating theirs at 1225 fps, but I don't have any chronograph data to back that up...plus those rounds are too expensive for regular practice as $35 per 50!

It really shine as a reloaders caliber, of course. I get to stay within SAAMI specs, use the same bullets as the 9mm, fire it about 10% faster and the difference in cost in reloading the a .38 Super case and 9mm case is far, far less than one penny for the additional gun powder.

[HisSoldier]

Springfield has made their Mil-Spec in .38 Super, off and on, so it's not always in the catalog. I had one for a year or two, and it was a nice gun.

My name is on a wish list for the gun, it has a ramped barrel, at least the one I shot a year ago did. Not a bad price either.

I had a RIA .38 Super, great gun no problems what so ever,

Did that RIA have a ramped barrel? I see they sell pretty cheap in Sarco.

[rixret]

Good ammo isn't that hard to find. I just got 500 HP's of of GB. I've developed a bit of fondness for this caliber myself.

[tipoc]

Ammo is not hard to find. You can compare some prices and loads here on some of the commercial ammo available...

http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=3&categoryId=7512&categoryString=653***691***

A bit more info on the Super.

http://www.38super.net/


tipoc

[limitdown]

The 38 Super is very widely used in competition shooting at IPSC and USPSA to make "Major" power factor classification.
Factory ammo is not the easiest to find, so most IPSC shooters hand-load/reload.
Check here (www.k8nd.com/documents/hl38sup.pdf) for some "Major" loads