Kahr - Feedback please?

[boxjeff]

I was thinking of picking up a PM40. Any comments on quality and reliability of Kahr guns?

And...what is the difference between a 40 and a 40 S&W?

Thanks!

[dogtown tom]

Use the search feature........there are eleventy dozen threads regarding Kahr's.

.40 & .40 S&W are the same handgun round. Some manufacturers (like Glock) are paranoid about not using the actual name of the cartridge. I guess it gives them a feeling of inferiority.:rolleyes:

[Jimmy10mm]

S&W developed the cartridge so the ammo is known as the .40 S&W or .40 for short. I have a Kahr MK40, the all steel version of the gun you are asking about, and it is great so far. I opted for the all steel because I figure it is too large for a pocket pistol, whether polymer or steel framed, and the added weight would dampen recoil. I'm very happy with the choice and have had no malfunctions in 350 or so rounds of various brands of ammo.

[orionengnr]

I have three Kahrs, all polymer. I'm not a .40 guy (had 'em but don't see the point), but I have a PM9, a P45 and just a week ago added a PM45.

In all the threads I have read, I believe the PM40 is the most maligned, followed by the PM9 and the PM45. So I knowingly bought two of the most troublesome models, and I don't regret any of them.

I would recommend you do a search and read up a bit. If you are buying used, try to test drive first if at all possible, using several brands of JHPs. If buying new, I would probably go ahead, but be aware there may be some issues.

My PM9 had the barrel peening issue that was somewhat common in the first ones. Kahr took very good care of me. My PM45 is having some teething issues with certain ammo brands, and it may have to go back--we will see.

The newer PM9s are very good, and I would guess the newer PM40s are as well, but do some research. I have no doubt they will get the PM45 working perfectly as well--but be advised, they are among the smallest, lightest pistols for a given caliber, and as such, are pushing the envelope. If that is what you want, press on.

I have my eyes open for a P380 whenever I find one for the right price. I am quite impressed with Kahr's quality and design innovation. I carried my PM9 every day for over three years, shooting it regularly and have been carrying my P45 for the last year and a half. It is on my hip as I type this. As soon as the PM45 proves itself 100% trustworthy, it will live on my hip in the summertime. The PM9 lives in the safe but sees the light of day (and the dark of my pocket) perhaps half a dozen times a year. It would be one of the last guns I would ever sell.

Good luck, grasshopper. :)

[boxjeff]

I was thinking of the 40 for carry, but maybe the 380 would be a better choice especially considering the size difference.

Any feedback?

[spodwo]

I was thinking of the 40 for carry, but maybe the 380 would be a better choice especially considering the size difference.

Any feedback

Go with the PM9. Small and cartridge is a much better Self Defense round over the .380. A much wider variety of cartridges also in the 9mm...

I am going for the PM9 myself soon...

[SwampYankee]

Blah blah blah, yeah the .380 can't hurt a fly. It's a useless SD round- we all know already, we've heard it all before and still can't figure out how all those people that got shot with .380's ever died. :barf:

I was considering the PM40 but 1. I just can't see shooting full house .40 loads out of a gun that small and/or light and hitting anything and 2. I already have a S&W 4053 (IWB) and a Speed Six (OWB), so I've got options for a larger caliber if I need it.

So I opted for the P380. Load it up with Buffalo Bore, put it in your back pocket and you're all done.

[fredeee]

I just got a PM9 after considering the PM40 but renting it first at a range in my area. The .40 has way too much snap for such a small gun. Personal opinion of course, but when I shot the thing it felt like the gun was going to jump out of my hand, never mind the followup shot. Considering this is likely your daily carry, I'd argue you want something that's super easy to control.

Don't want to get into a .40 vs. 9mm discussion, but if you're looking for such a small pistol, the PM9 in my opinion is the best option. Love the gun BTW, very good quality and despite the mixed reviews I've read online, mine has been flawless for it's first 300 rounds.

Good luck.

[boxjeff]

Great feedback! Thanks all!

[CK Bigoldi]

I would look at the CW series as well. You'll save $250-$300 over a PM and they are much more controllable. I had a PM40 and loved it but it tended to bounce around a lot. I bought a CW40 and it was night/day difference. My CW40 frame is now cut down to the size of the PM40 and uses PM40 mags but shoots much smoother with less flip than my PM40.

If you buy a Kahr, read the manual and don't bend the slide stop spring when you reassemble it. The tab goes under the spring. When looking at used ones, the spring will most likely be bent if its spent time in a case and been handled. I looked at 3 in a case at my local shop and they were all assembled wrong and the spring was bent.

[spodwo]

Blah blah blah, yeah the .380 can't hurt a fly. It's a useless SD round- we all know already, we've heard it all before and still can't figure out how all those people that got shot with .380's ever died.


I never said anything about it being useless ...over react much?

The 9mm is a better self defense round and it does have a wider range of loads, bullets, etc. Just take a look at the ballistic tables and manufacturer listings. And the Kahr PM9 is hardly much larger than the .380. Also one can buy a lot more 9mm rounds for the money over the .380. That gives one more opportunity to shoot and get more proficient with the pistol. The .380 around here is more rare and more expensive.

Seriously - the price point and the size - to ME - the 9mm makes much more sense over a .380 if looking at the Kahr.

I have been looking at the PM Kahr series for quite a bit...the video below pretty much convinced me to go the 9mm route...you get a real good idea as to just how small the Kahr PM9 is.

Hickok is Mr. Glock and loves the .40 S&W cartridge. He shoots the heck out of his G23 and nails amazing shots. He does a nice review of the Kahr PM9.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKSvmMLJt_0

Boxjeff - Ultimately buy what you want...but the .380 is a marginal defense cartridge.

[OldLincoln]

I sold what in MY opinion was the sweetest 380 ever (Colt Mustang PocketLite) to move up the 9mm only for the extra punch. I guess all the forums finally got to me and I became less confident it the caliber. I was fortunate to sell it to a gentleman collector for enough to pay for my new PM9 and holster.

The Kahrs need a thorough scrubbing before the first shot and there is a lot of advice on that and more at Kahrtalk.com. Once all the moving parts are mated well and smooth, it is dependable, accurate and a good shoot.

As for calibers, MY opinion is 9mm or better will do the job. I shoot Federal HST +p in my PM9 and it compares pretty well with other calibers. Point is you will be carrying the gun everywhere so your comfort and concealment are very important.

[Jimmy10mm]

I also have a P380 and did have a P9 but sold it to a friend. To be honest I find the MK40 comfortable to carry in a Bandera Leather Co 'Beltster', in spite of the weight, but the P380 is so much lighter that I find myself carrying it all the time.

It is much smaller than the P9 or the PM9. Not so much in weight but in the width, length and height. The trigger is smooth as silk and it is much more comfortable to shoot than a friend's Kel-Tec 380. That is the good news.

I've put 350 rounds through my P380, mostly Winchester hardball, and had 3 FTF due to soft primer hits. I'm thinking this will work itself out and if it doesn't I'll give Kahr a call. The MK40 I have, and the P9 that I sold ,operated flawlessly so far.

If ccw is the main motivation the P380 is a great pocket pistol, if you're comfortable with the 380 as a SD caliber. The PM9, or the 1/2" longer and taller (same width) P9, are fine but larger. Ammo is cheaper and more readily available for the 9 than the 380.

The PM40, MK and CW are the same size as the PM9 but the slide is .4 thicker. Length and height are the same. As I said in the earlier post, I'm very happy with the full steel MK40. I haven't shot the polymer version so i cannot speak to that.

[SwampYankee]

I get frustrated with people who claim that .380 is “marginal” SD round. Yes, the tables and charts demonstrate that it has less punch than a .40 or 9mm but .380 ACP has been used in countless SD shootings and murders and nobody has yet gotten up and said, “Boy that was a marginal caliber, I’m glad I got hit with that instead of 9 mm!”. It does, in fact, work very well.

1. The internet is full of “opinions”. The disparagement of the .380 is an old one that has come from many people, some of them well respected and some of them not, but it does not actually hold much water. Many of the studies that have been produced regarding caliber effectiveness are dubious at best, many have been debunked and a couple are outright hoaxes. Unfortunately, real world data is skewed because guess what, most people that get shot actually get shot with .380 or .38 caliber handguns because that is what most people carry. At an SD range, not having to penetrate a car or a door, it works. To call it "marginal" is a fallacy that continues to be perpetrated, with little real proof but a lot of "opinion". If that is your opinion, feel free to express it. But don't pretend it's gospel because it ain't.

2. Yes, the 9mm is more powerful than the .380. But the 45LC is more powerful than both, when you consider a high end load with a massive bullet. Should we all be walking around with a Blackhawk stuffed in our pants? If you don’t carry a weapon because it is too big or uncomfortable to carry, it is a useless weapon.

3. The .380 allows for more accurate shots and quicker followup. This is where it really shines. If you are at the range once a week with a larger caliber, that’s great. Go become a Jedi master with your weapon. But most people just don’t make it out that much so the most manageable caliber is the best caliber. If you can’t hit anything with your tiny little .40 or 9mm by virtue of it’s size, it is a useless weapon.

4. If you really want to look at tables and charts, Buffalo Bore standard .380 ACP comes in at 210 ft/lbs of ME. Their .380 +P is something like 290 ft/lbs ME (JHP’s come out at 267 ft/lbs ME). Most of the other SD loads come in at around 200 ft/lbs ME. Standard .38 Special loads vary between 150 and 290 ft/lbs ME. So frankly, I’m not sure what tables you are looking at. It seems pretty apparent from the number of people killed by the .38 Special that it is an effective round- every police department on the planet used it during the 50’s and 60’s and while many converted to .357 magnum, a lot stayed with the .38 Special because it was effective, easy to manage and would not over-penetrate. No, they don't use it now. But the world is a different place today (generally more horrible) and if I were a cop, I'd want 17 rounds instead of six.

5. Nope, .380 ACP does not create as big a wound channel. So what. Hit ‘em again. And again. With a .380 ACP, that won’t be any problem at all. And carry a spare mag. And learn how to use it.

6. You are not a cop, I assume. Your job is not to go into a house full of meth heads with guns blazing. Your job is to keep yourself and your family safe, stay away from trouble and not have to fire your gun. In that context, assuming you’ll be running and moving away from a threat in the open, the .380 is a perfect choice. How many CCW holders ever fire their weapon? Precious few, if they are being careful. It is entirely possible that 5 stoned meth heads are going to assail you on a wide open public street in the middle of the day, but at that point, you’re a dead man no matter what caliber you carry unless you’ve got enough distance and time to take them apart with the AR-15 you have strapped to your back. Yes, yes, the Boy Scout motto is Be Prepared but the caveat should be, "as far as the edge of reason and sanity allow".

7. All this is negated by the fact that most people do not train in real-world situations where you are scared to be maimed or killed and are under pressure. Frankly, I’m not sure it even matters what caliber you carry if you can’t use it properly when you need to. Perhaps the best investment anyone can make is some actual and legitimate training.

8. Occasionally I carry my little Kel-tec P32. It's small and light. I usually carry it when nothing else will suffice. I load it up with Buffalo Bores cranked to 200 ft/lbs ME and have had enough practice to make rapid followups and hit a head sized target repeatedly. But then again, having never been in a fire fight, caliber may just be moot if I feeze up an pee my pants....

[ATW525]

I owned a PM40. It can best be described as "energetic" and difficult to hold on to with anything less than a death grip. It wasn't really painful to shoot, however, other than the aggressive checkering that could ablate the hand if it moved. I could shoot it with reasonable accuracy out to 25 yards or so, but follow up shots were on the slow side.

[bikerbill]

I've been carrying a PM9 for almost six years and to me it's the perfect pocket autoloader ... it has never failed since new, probably has about 600 rounds through it ... I follow the company's advice, use the slide lock to release the slide instead of slingshot as I do on my other semis, and it has never failed to fire ... takes practice to reach a solid standard of accuracy, after that it's just a fun gun to shoot and light as a feather (well, a pretty heavy feather). Thinking that my next purchase will be a PM45 ...

[Squibb]

Some excellent thoughts and observations in this thread. To some degree caliber and pistol choice is going to be influenced by personal biases. And, that's not bad, it's just what you expect. I have mine (too numerous to list!).
All sorts of stuff go into making individual decisions; experience, or the lack of it, probably being the greatest.

I've been shooting well over 50 years, been in the military, edited a firearms magazine, and still show up at the range when I should be someplace else.
I think shot placement is the most important aspect of SD shooting. If you are a master of what you are carrying, you should feel protected. A head, heart or groin shot with a .380 is a real show stopper, as it would be with a .45.

I collect S&W single stack autos, 3913, 908, 4513, etc. They are the gold standard and more than a few are in cult status. But, real good chance when I leave home, there is a Kahr CW9 tucked in at 4 o'clock.

[ace4059]

I went with the PM40 over the PM9 because:
1. All my carry guns are .40 cal.
2. .40 cal has the best kill ratio with one shot.
3. The size of the PM40 is almost the exact same as the PM9
4. You only have one less shot with the 40 vs. the 9mm. You with 6 shots you need all the knock down power you can get.
So you could say I am a little biased towards the 40

The 40 is still easy to handle. Yes follow up shots were a little faster with the 9mm. However with the .40 cal you can use a lighter bullet and have the higher velocity like the 9mm and you can penetrate car doors, or you can carry a heavy bullet and have the knock down power of the .45. It takes 400 ft/lbs of energy to kill with the shock wave. 9mm has 399 fpe so that is efficient and will work just fine. But the .40 has 485+ ft/lbs (I've seen some claim 526 fpe with a .40)
So if you can handle the 40 I would suggest that.

I have had good luck with Kahr. They seem to have excellent service. They did have some problems with the PM40 and PM9 on the models when they first came out, but the new guns now are just fine and seem to function flawlessly. Even though Kahr is a nice gun and I do trust it as my CCW, They are not top notch. By this, I mean they are not the HIGHEST quality. They are not made where they can be taken out and shot every weekend at the range. I do not think it would hold up to 25K+ rounds. This is not a glock where you can shoot 250k rds through it. If you get a Kahr, I would break it in with the recommend number of rounds, then maybe shoot 100 or so rds extra. Put it in your pocket and carry it. Then I would shoot it 50 rds through it every 3 months or so. I have 700-800 rounds through mine and have only had one malfunction, and that was on the first 50 rds during the "break in period". The reason I say this gun is not meant to have countless rds through it is because of one "issue" that I see. This is the screw that holds the spring in for the slide stop. The screw is only screwed into the plastic frame. There is not metal molded into that part. I think Kahr should make it where the screw would screw into metal their. Even though I have never had a problem with this, I could see it becoming one, if I shot thousands of rds through it. The one thing I do love about the Kahr, is the trigger. It has the smoothest trigger. Yes the trigger pull is long like an older double action revolver, but that thing is smooth all the way.

Basically it comes down to: Do you want a 9mm or a .40 cal? It is your choice ultimately.

[hdawson228]

Ace & squib. Ditto on the Kahr. What a great trigger! ! ! !

My CW9 has had ZERO hiccups. I did add the Crimson Trace laser because of aging eyes.:cool:

[SwampYankee]

you can penetrate car doors

But that's an important point. You SHOULD NOT be penetrating car doors and still expecting the round to be inevitably lethal on the other side. I just fail to see how you are ever going to need to shoot someone through a car door and claim self defense. In the most remote scenario, suppose you are car-jacked? How are you going to get the weapon pointed at the guy, through the door, so he doesn't see what you are doing? He's gonna shoot you. Your only chance is to draw as he pulls you from the car. And assuming you are the only one in the car, you should probably just let him have the car.

How do you keep yourself out of jail after firing through a car door? Once again, I can't even imagine how you are going to explain that as a legal use of force.

If you can hold onto a a PM40 shot after shot, more power to you. But as Harry Callahan was fond of saying, "A man's got to know his limitations". Some people seem to think the PM40 is manageable, a lot of others say it is a handful. I've got a lot of firearms. I can't say I have a PM40 but I can say that from my experience, it's more than I want to handle. I could see carrying a small 9 mm but a .380 ACP is generally still going to be more controllable, shot after shot.

[ace4059]

But that's an important point. You SHOULD NOT be penetrating car doors and still expecting the round to be inevitably lethal on the other side. I just fail to see how you are ever going to need to shoot someone through a car door and claim self defense.

For most CCW you do NOT want over penetration. BUt I can think of a few that through a car door maybe needed. 6 months ago a man walked into a local Hastings and blasted 4 random people with a shot gun. He then proceeded to bar where he killed the doorman.

Suppose you were there while he was shooting people and you drew on him. He flees back to the other side of his car for cover, hopefully your rds will get the job done. Since he takes cover what do you do? Do you stand up and say, hey mister, your 25 yrds away and behind a car door, your no threat to me, so go on. I'm not gonna shoot you because if I do, a jury will convict me since there is NO WAY I could shoot someone through a car door and it be self defense. Heck no. Just because he is behind the car door, doesnt make him still a threat when he still has the gun. You have a right to protect yourself and the people around you here in Tx.

LEO does need it. Around here DPS went to .357 sig for that reason. It can shoot through cars and still take out the bad guy. Local Departments around here have gone to .40 cal for the increased stopping power. I have a G27 as a back up gun for when things go bad. That way my mags will interchange with the G22. No my Kahr mags and glock mags will not cross over, but it keeps me from buying extra ammo. See why I like the .40.

Remember be prepared for the worse.
Like I said I carry all .40 for defense. That way I only have to buy one type of round.

But I do think the Kahr is a nice all around gun.

[rsxr22]

i had a CW40 and PM9, i chose to sell both but for completely different reasons. The CW was a piece of junk! Tons of FTF and FTE's even after their "break in period" after about 1200 painfully long rounds i unloaded the gun, but didnt lose much because they were really hott at the time. The PM9 was accurate and reliable from the get go. I just didnt like how small the gun was and imo is not a primary CC option for me.

[Ben]

Knowing what I know now, I would avoid the polymer kahr's. I think the original k9 is the ONLY way to go.

Ben

[chris in va]

I've had my K9 for a year. No malfunctions to speak of after ~400 through it, including some reloads. Low bore axis, nice balance, good trigger.

The rear sight did work loose though. Guy at the gun store managed to get it fixed, but worked loose again and at some point I need to send it back to Kahr for a permanent solution.

What surprises me the most are the ergonomics for such a small-ish gun. Must have the Napoleon complex, thinks it's a much larger pistol.

I have a theory. Justin Moon originally designed the Kahr as a 9mm, the K9. Everything else came after that, and it seems the larger/more powerful calibers just don't jive with the design. Granted it was a rental, but the CW45 I tried was also jamming pretty badly.

[SwampYankee]

Suppose you were there while he was shooting people and you drew on him. He flees back to the other side of his car for cover, hopefully your rds will get the job done.

Listen, if I draw my gun I plan to pull the trigger. This is the difference between me and a cop. The ONLY time I pull a gun is if I am willing to kill. So if someone is shooting at me I do not issue a warning, I pull my firearm and open fire. A cop, on the other hand, uses a weapon to diffuse conflict, hopefully never having to fire. When a cop pulls a gun, they can do it for poops and giggles. Literally. If they get a "funny" feeling, they can pull a gun. If I pull a gun, I am committing a felony unless my life is at stake. When I pull my gun, your bad guy will never make it to his car. He will be dead on the floor, facing me, with a shotgun in his hand. Or I will be dead and hence the car is moot.

[Motownstan]

I only reply to attest to Kahr's great service. I have an E9 that I bought used 2 years ago, it was shipped in 1999 with stainless frame and blued slide and barrel. I called Kahr about some peening on the slide, they said to send it in.
on the 7th day after sending it in it was back at my door with a new stainless slide and barrel. I have never had a malfunction of any kind. It is my favorite 9.

http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww215/MotownStan/P1000878.jpg

[ATW525]

In addition to the PM40, I've had a K9, K40 and T40. I have to agree with the sentiment that the K9 is one of the best. Despite my preference for bigger bores, it's a nice little pistol.

[CK Bigoldi]

Very nice E9. Love the wear on the mag release and slide stop. That's how it should look.

[AustinTX]

I get frustrated with people who claim that .380 is “marginal” SD round.

There's no reason to get so "frustrated." Just accept that the .380 is indeed a marginal self-defense round in comparison to 9mm/.40/.45.

I accept that fact, and I plan on picking up a Kahr P380 soon to use as a backup to my 9mm PPS or as my primary carry gun when attire so dictates. But I don't have any illusions that the .380 round has anything approximating the stopping power of these other rounds.

On the other hand, believing this doesn't mean I fit your caricature, either. If possible, one should carry something better, but the .380 can certainly be effective for self defense. I would feel much, much better relying on a 124-grain +P 9mm Gold Dot HP, however. The .380 should be relied upon as a primary carry caliber only when it is not feasible to carry something in 9mm or above.

.380 ACP has been used in countless SD shootings and murders and nobody has yet gotten up and said, “Boy that was a marginal caliber, I’m glad I got hit with that instead of 9 mm!”.

The same can be said of the .22 LR, .25 ACP, and .32 ACP rounds. That doesn't mean one should intentionally underarm oneself with guns in these calibers if it's feasible to carry a gun in a more potent caliber.

1. The internet is full of “opinions”. The disparagement of the .380 is an old one that has come from many people, some of them well respected and some of them not, but it does not actually hold much water. Many of the studies that have been produced regarding caliber effectiveness are dubious at best, many have been debunked and a couple are outright hoaxes.

The most respected self-defense experts are unanimous in the conclusion that the .380 is very clearly inferior to rounds at 9mm and up and that 9mm is the minimum that should be considered acceptable for carry/self-defense if all options are available. Their conclusions are based upon evaluation of thousands and thousands of police and civilian shootings, live animal shootings, autopsies, and ballistic tests. The burden is on you to show that these evaluations are faulty.

Unfortunately, real world data is skewed because guess what, most people that get shot actually get shot with .380 or .38 caliber handguns because that is what most people carry.

You have not demonstrated any "skewing" of the data. We don't need equal numbers of shootings in every caliber to produce reliable assessments of relative stopping power for those calibers. For each caliber in question, the data sample size is enormous. That's all that matters.

Yes, the 9mm is more powerful than the .380. But the 45LC is more powerful than both, when you consider a high end load with a massive bullet. Should we all be walking around with a Blackhawk stuffed in our pants? If you don’t carry a weapon because it is too big or uncomfortable to carry, it is a useless weapon.

This is a strawman argument. There are many pistols in 9mm and .40 that the vast majority of people would not consider "too big or uncomfortable to carry." The Walther PPS and Kahr PM9/PM40 are nothing like a Blackhawk.

3. The .380 allows for more accurate shots and quicker followup. This is where it really shines.

I think that's a very debatable claim, regarding the .380. Larger .380 pistols are almost uniformly blowback-operated, and many find their recoil to be harder and snappier than similarly-sized 9mm pistols. I find the PPS in 9mm to be noticeably softer-shooting than the Sig P232, for instance. The tiny locked-breech .380 mouseguns (P380, LCP, etc.) produce considerable felt recoil due to their low weights. Not that the .380 is difficult to control -- I just don't find it to have any real advantage over a 9mm in this area.

4. If you really want to look at tables and charts, Buffalo Bore standard .380 ACP comes in at 210 ft/lbs of ME. Their .380 +P is something like 290 ft/lbs ME (JHP’s come out at 267 ft/lbs ME). Most of the other SD loads come in at around 200 ft/lbs ME. Standard .38 Special loads vary between 150 and 290 ft/lbs ME. So frankly, I’m not sure what tables you are looking at.

He's probably looking at all the charts that show 9mm self-defense rounds producing from 390-465 ft-lbs. ME. Since he didn't make any statements about .38 Special, I'm not sure what relevance the comparison has as a response to his claims.

The Buffalo Bore +P JHP load produces 296 ft-lbs. ME out of a Browning BDA/Beretta 84FS. The OP's follow-up post and spodwo's response were concerning a Kahr P380. Out of a comparably sized gun (the Kel-Tec), the BB load produces 242 ft-lbs. ME.

8. Occasionally I carry my little Kel-tec P32. It's small and light. I usually carry it when nothing else will suffice. I load it up with Buffalo Bores cranked to 200 ft/lbs ME and have had enough practice to make rapid followups and hit a head sized target repeatedly.

As with any firearm, that's better than none at all, but don't think for a second that you're getting 200 ft-lbs. ME out of your Kel-Tec. BB recorded a muzzle velocity of 910 fps with the 75-grain bullet from the P32. That comes out to 138 ft-lbs. ME.

[IMTHDUKE]

Only have one Kahr....it's a keeper....

http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww2/imthduke/GUNS/BlackRose_best.jpg

[siggygirl]

+1 for Kahr K9 and it having a Napoleon complex. Mine does. I don't know how it shoots itself that well while still being so small. Mucho research and I moved away from Sig to the K9, no regrets.

[SwampYankee]

The burden is on you to show that these evaluations are faulty.


Tell me I'm wrong and then tell me to prove I'm right? You're just being foolish.

And just because someone touts themselves as an expert does make it so. It takes a fool to be fooled by a fool.

[AustinTX]

I should have figured that your response would be so weak.

You're the one who claimed, with no supporting evidence whatsoever, that the view, widely-held among self-defense experts, of the .380 as a marginal self-defense round doesn't "hold water."

Just because you say so? Produce some evidence that supports your view. Show us why the so-far unsupported opinion of some guy who thinks he's getting 200 ft-lbs. ME out of his Kel-Tec P32 is better than the evaluations of "fools" like Massad Ayoob.

In light of the numerous other factual and logical errors in your previous post, I can't say I'm optimistic that you'll come up with anything worth reading.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Geez!

Shooting to kill, personal invective.

Well, as Vampire Willow once said before she turned out the lights on someone.

Bored Now!

Closed.

PS - dial it back on the on the if you draw you must shoot stuff, folks. That's plain BS.