help identifying these two old guns!!

[Couzin]

Got a long distance (PA) request asking to identify these two old percussion guns. The rifle is a little ornate and looks like it may be a German made target gun. The pistol - I just don't know - maybe French Navy??? Photos are not great but they can't be done again anytime soon. I requested info on marks and will add it on here when and if I get it. I see one cartouce on the pistol wood but it just looks like an owner's stamp. Appreciate any info on who, where, when - maybe possible value??

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Cuz-bucket/Old%20muzzle%20loaders/th_Rockland_Roadtrip_137.jpg (http://s809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Cuz-bucket/Old%20muzzle%20loaders/?action=view&current=Rockland_Roadtrip_137.jpg)

http://i809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Cuz-bucket/Old%20muzzle%20loaders/th_Rockland_Roadtrip_140.jpg (http://s809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Cuz-bucket/Old%20muzzle%20loaders/?action=view&current=Rockland_Roadtrip_140.jpg)

Album is here http://s809.photobucket.com/albums/zz15/Cuz-bucket/Old%20muzzle%20loaders/

[bedbugbilly]

You might want to post this in the blackpowder section as well. The pistol is a U.S. Martial Pistol from the looks of it. If you could list the markings on the lock and give more photos it would help. From what I'm seeing, there is a lug on the bottom of the muzzle for a swivel "captured" ramrod. I'm guessing .69 cal. smoothbore? If you could give some close-ups of the lock it would help. Thanks! :)

[dreamweaver]

bbb is on the right track, but i think the pistol is actually a french or belgian knock off. the right side plate is very roughly made. might even be spanish. there were a lot of "private" manufacturers in that era. usually blacksmiths. kinda like basement gunsmiths now days.
no clues on the musket.

[Mike Irwin]

"You might want to post this in the blackpowder section as well."

No. Please do NOT multi-post the same thread in multiple forums.

[Mike Irwin]

The pistol appears to be a Model 1842 percussion gun. It's missing the captured rammer and is in otherwise rough shape.

[Couzin]

Think Mike Irwin nailed it - found other Johnson (and Aston) examples identical to it (minus the bumbs and bruises). Thanks so much!!!

[James K]

Everything appears to fit the Model 1842 except the proportions. It looks like the picture has been edited so its horizontal proportion is "narrower" than the gun itself. This makes the foreend between the band and the lockplate appear shorter in the picture than it is in an 1842.

Also, I wonder if those marks on the lockplate are letters or just "battle scars" on an old gun. If it is lettering, could Couzin either provide close up pictures or see if he can make them out.

Jim

[Scorch]

The rifle does not look to me to be of German or even European origin. It looks like a Pennsylvania long rifle.

[James K]

On the rifle, I think Scorch is correct, but we would need pics of the lockplate and the top of the barrel as well as more info as to caliber, barrel length, etc.

Jim

[surbat6]

The long gun appears to be a civilian rifle (could be a type called a "smooth rifle if there's no lands and grooves in the bore), not a military type. It has features I've seen on Pennsylvania long rifles, though I can't nail down a regional school from the photos provided. The rifle may have originally been a flintlock. The drum and nipple were often used to convert from flint to percussion. The lock seems not to quite fit its mortise, so may be a percussion lock more or less fitted to the gun as part of the conversion.
Any markings the owner could provide might help nail down the gun's origin, as well as pics of the nose cap, top of the barrel, and a CLEAR shot of the lock.

[Couzin]

Again - I apologize about the photos. The person that sent them to me did them while on a road trip to an elderly relative's home doing genealogy research. It was one of those 'would you like to see some guns your great granpappy had' kind of moments. I've asked for either some better phots or at least some descriptions of marks. I appreciate the response so far - heck of a lot more than I knew about the guns. Thanks!!!

[Mike Irwin]

That rifle doesn't look Pennsylvania to me. To me it looks southern, South Carolina, Georgia, or Arkansas. I can't put a specific finger on why, but it just does.