Why is Heavier Grain Said to be Better?

[Hoskins]

Ok, I've studied & researched & I still don't understand why a heavier bullet is a better one.

For example, taking a .308 WIN from an un-named ammo company, using 2 different weights/grain of bullet it looks like this:

150gr: MV/Energy = 3000/2997
500 yd Velocity/Energy = 2997/1282 w/a drop of -40.7" in Trajectory

165gr: MV/Energy = 2840/2955
500 yd velocity/energy = 1902/1325 w/a drop of -44.7"


Now there is a slight edge in energy with the 165gr over 150gr, but there is a 4.7" edge in drop for the 150gr @ 500yds. I don't have the data for longer shots.

Is a 4.7" advantage on trajectory a greater advantage than a 43lbs energy advantage? Heavier weight .308's are even slower & have a greater drop. So what is better fo all around longrange shooting, accuracy, & still having enough knockdown power out at those extended ranges. The 150 gr still has the knock down power of a large pistol caliber out at 1000 yds.

Your opinions & wisdom is greatly appreciated.

[mapsjanhere]

There's a second number you're not calculating, and that's wind drift. Lighter bullets react stronger to side winds, and winds are much harder to determine accurately than distance, especially over long range. You might be standing in a calm spot and have 10 m/s downrange, missing your target by a yard with a lighter bullet.

[phil mcwilliam]

Ive hunted extensively with a 308 for over 20 years & stick with 150 grain bullets for all my hunting regardless of the game. I know where the rifle shoots at various distances & am more than happy with the accuracy of this round.
On the few occassions in the early days that I tried 180 grain bullets, I noticed no difference in knock down power.
For the reasons you list - slightly flatter shooting & higher velocity- I actually prefer the 150 grain for hunting, but many will disagree.

[CPTMurdoc30]

In a recent poll

95% of deer preferred to be killed with 150 gr bullets. 2% preferred 165 to 168gr bullets and 3% preferred other bullets weights.

Lighter bullet are affected by wind more and don't carry the down range energy as well as a heavier bullet. I hunt deer with my 308 and 30-06 I stick to 150gr bullets just because a 180gr bullet is not needed for the deer I shoot. I think 165gr is over kill for a normal sized deer.

[taylorce1]

In a recent poll

95% of deer preferred to be killed with 150 gr bullets. 2% preferred 165 to 168gr bullets and 3% preferred other bullets weights.


That right there is FUNNY! :D

Heavier = Longer which in turn if you are using spitzer and spitzer boat tails = higher ballistic coefficients and sectional densities. The higher the BC the less likely the bullet is to be affected by wind and friction, thus it is able to maintain direction and velocity better. Sectional density is a good indicator of penetration ability which tells you how that bullet is likely to perform when it impacts a target.

It really doesn't matter what you use while hunting at normal ranges there isn't going to be a whole lot of difference on deer. I prefer the 180 for elk, just for the extra mass. Long range target shooting you are better off with 168 grain and up in the .308 Win.

[wpcexpert]

It's not as much a better or worse. The heavier bullet of the same design will have a better Ballistic Coefficient (BC). The higher the BC, the less drag there is and the less the wind has an effect on the bullet. The heavier bullet will also carry more speed and KE down range.

But with anything else, the 150gr bullet may shoot better in your rifle than the 165. But either way, 150 or 165, it really maks no difference on deer out to 300 yds. They won't be able to tell the difference...I promise

[Hoskins]

Yeah, I completely understand that in hunting that 150, 165, 180, etc... it aint gonna make a whole heck of alot of difference in regards to taking deer w/n 300 yds.

When pushing the limits of the round though, out to 1000 yds, that's what I was talking about. I figured that it had to do with drift. That the heavier round would resist wind better than the lighter bullet. So I imagine this is the main purpose that long range shooters like the heavier round over a faster/lighter round.

I'll go back & check the BC value of the .308 rounds, comparing thier BC at different weights from the same manufacter. Thanks for the comments.

[mapsjanhere]

Just run some numbers through the JBM calculator (I matched energies here, not looking for realistic numbers for a certain round):
For your standard Nosler Accubond 150 gr at 3200 ft/s
muzzle energy 3422 ftlb, at 1000 yards 612 ftlb, and 91 inch drift in 10 m/s wind
For a Berger 210 VLD at 2700 ft/s
muzzle energy 3411 ftlb, at 1000 yards 1009 ftlb and 70 inch drift in 10 m/s wind
So, with identical muzzle energies, the heavier round has 40% more energy and 25% less drift at 1000 yards.

[ScottRiqui]

150gr: MV/Energy = 3000/2997
500 yd Velocity/Energy = 2997/1282 w/a drop of -40.7" in Trajectory

I'm not sure what the numbers are saying here. How did the 150 gr bullet lose almost 60% of its energy while losing virtually none of its velocity? I'm assuming the 500 yd velocity figure is a typo?

[rtpzwms]

his second set of numbers make a lot more sense if you're dyslexic!:D

[44 AMP]

The thing the velocity and energy figures do not show is the intertia. As mentioned, the wind drift is less with the heavier bullets, again thanks to the intertia.

For punching paper, its all about shape (B.C.), and speed makes it easier to hit at unknown distances (less drop). But for hunting, the tendancy of a bullet to keep going, and plow deep into, or even through the animal is a serious factor.

I don't shoot game at 500 yards. Personally, I don't think anybody should. IF you cannot get closer, you aren't hunting! But if you were to shoot game at that range, (assuming your skill level is enough to ensure a good hit and a humane kill), it would be a pity if that 150gr stopped a couple of inches short of the boiler room, where a 165 or 180 would have carried on.

The same thing applies for closer ranges as well, but not to as great a degree. The 165gr .308 is a fine load, and preferred by many, as a good compromise between the 150 and the 180.

When that deer/elk/moose/whatever is facing away, and your neck shot goes low, giving you the classic Texas heart shot, a few extra inches of penetration can be the difference between a trophy and a lost animal.

I'm not trying to imply that 150s are useless, they are fine loads, I have used them, and will use them with complete confidence. But, if I am hunting where I think I might need all the penetration I can get (and am less concerned with drop), I'll pick a heavier bullet.

Now, all this assumes your rifle shoots them accurately. If you get 1moa with the 150s, but only 2.5moa with heavier bullets, shoot 150s! Because all the penetration in the world has a hard time making up for a poor hit, and can't make up for a miss!

[Hoskins]

I'm not sure what the numbers are saying here. How did the 150 gr bullet lose almost 60% of its energy while losing virtually none of its velocity? I'm assuming the 500 yd velocity figure is a typo?
You're right! I didn't catch it. I copied & pasted the number from a major manufactuer's ballistic chart & they have a typo on thier published chart. Not very professional huh?

The 500 yd velocity looks like it would be in the mid to high 1900 fps range.

[Art Eatman]

When you're talking targets and 1,000 yards, yeah, wind drift is a major factor. More than trajectory, since when you're shooting at a known distance the comparative trajectories aren't all that important.

Something that IS important out in Ma Bell territory is retained velocity. Some instability can occur if the bullet drops below the speed of sound. So, more velocity from a heavier bullet with a better coefficient is a Good Thing.

There were a couple of guys comparing notes on their rather special rigs: '06s with 30" barrels, using 230-grain VLD bullets and getting sub-MOA out at 1,200 to 1,300 yards. You're not gonna do that with 150s.

[Win_94]

I choose the longest bullet my rifle can stabilize. The greater BC lets me shoot farther before the bullet goes subsconic, which has a negative effect on accuracy.

[jimbob86]

Better for what, exactly? Better for who? And sez who?

Most deer are shot at ranges short enough that BC, wind drift, and all that other minutiae are just PII (Preoccupation w/ Inconsequential Increments).

Heavier bullets = more recoil, but recoil in most calibers is not severe enough that your shoulder is going to ache..... unless you are MISSING a lot! More PII.


I shoot heavy for caliber bullets (150 SGK's in .270 WIN) for deer, because I had a 130 grain bullet fail at very close range, and I like the BC and energy on longer shots. The Sierras shoot well in my rifle, so I have stuck with them ..... that and I found 3 100 ct. boxes of them on sale for $11 ea. nearly 10 years ago.... still have a box and a half.



Bottom line: shoot what you want to, if it works for you.

[Fat White Boy]

I use hand loaded 168gr Gameking bullets in my Remington 700VLS in .308. The main reason I use that weight is because it is what shoots best out of my rifle. I use Corelokt 130gr ammo I buy at Walmart in my Model 70 in .270 Win because that is what is the most accurate out of that rifle.

Figure out what shoots best in your rifle, learn its trajectory and how the wind affects it.

[Hoskins]

Mabey should clarify my original post. Most long range shooters use heavier grain rounds. This isn't necessarly a "what works best on deer" question. I know that w/n the typical close to mid-range hunting shot that 150's will work just fine. I use 150's in my 30.06 & it drops them in thier tracks.

Watching sniper shows (not movies) & reading long range & sniper material & articles, the norm seems to be the use of a heavier grain .308 round.

BTW, not sure if anyone has seen it, but there is a show on The History Channel called "Sniper: Inside the Crosshairs" it was a pretty good show.

[jimbob86]

the norm seems to be the use of a heavier grain .308 round.


For long range shooting, higher BC bullets are important: every advantage is important.

One thing to consider, though: Those "Sniper shows" are about military shooting- where a hit anywhere "from the bean to the beans" (head to pelvis) is good enough to take the enemy out. Hunting is a different game: you want a heart/lung shot, and not shooting is preferable to gut-shooting the animal.

[GeauxTide]

Use the bullet the rifle likes the best. If you're considering 500 yard shots, then you'll have to push 160-180gr 7mm to 30 caliber bullets at more than3000fps.

[44 AMP]

If you're considering 500 yard shots, then you'll have to push 160-180gr 7mm to 30 caliber bullets at more than3000fps

No, you don't.

You just have to be a better at judging drop and wind drift.:D

[tirod]

Is a heavier bullet a better one? Not necessarily. The question could easily be asked, why are lighter higher speed bullets better?

Heavier bullets imply either greater diameter, or in this situation, longer length. Longer bullets generally (danger will robinson) have better ballistic coefficients, or more accurately, less drag. They will fly further and flatter because they lose retained energy less quickly.

But, is that what is needed?

Most hunting is done under 400m, and as official Army studies in the 1950's showed, most combat hits were made at 100m. The longer, heavier bullets tend to work better at longer ranges over 400m. Under that, a lighter bullet hits just as hard because is generally has more speed.

A lighter faster bullet still has retained energy often exceeding the slower, heavier bullet, up to a point somewhere out there down range. It will penetrate, or even better, upset and completely expend all it's energy in the target, not carrying through with excess wasted beyond.

Be careful what is being compared in ballistics and where it's best used. Higher speed, lower weight bullets are better at shorter ranges, heavier, longer bullets are better at long ranges. One isn't better than the other until how it's used is brought into the discussion.

Light weight fast bullets are better, because the average shooter/soldier simply can't and won't shoot longer ranges. The capacity of long range is wasted in hunting or combat. Most could be carrying a lighter weight rifle, hunt with less fatigue, and the results could actually be more downed game because more accurate first shots due to less recoil or it's perception.

Long range shots are a 10% situation. Don't hunt with a rifle set up for an extreme, choose one set up for the 90% of what really happens. It's better to be 90% right than 90% wrong.

Strangely enough, that is quite hard to sell in the marketplace. Nobody wants to be seen as average. :D

[azredhawk44]

I shoot 168gr match bullets most frequently from my .308, so when I'm lucky enough to get drawn to go hunting, I go out with a bullet that matches that target load as closely as possible.

That ends up being a 165gr BTSP. Shoots identically to 200 yards, haven't tested it beyond that far.

[tirod]

I've done the same, hunted with a .308 for many years. In my area, there is little long range shooting, despite the open fields, etc. Deer just don't seem to wander out into a daylit field at 10:00 and stand around for me to shoot. I have to wait in deep woods near acorns to get them.

At best, I see 125 yard shots. I don't hunt with a .308 anymore, and downsized to a lever action until the AR in 6.8 is finished. I dropped two pounds off the gun immediately, and use a cartridge proven to be efficient at the ranges I shoot. It will still be the same with the 6.8, with even less recoil, more speed, and lighter bullets, making it even flatter shooting. That means a longer range for dead on sighting and no hold over adjustments.

Black powder hunters using sub caliber bullets and sabots are doing exactly the same thing. Smaller, lighter, higher speed bullet with flatter trajectories generally do a better job for hunting and combat, and help drop recoil and rifle weight, making the user more likely to shoot accurately and/or more often, as needed.

There's a lot of frustrated slug hunters out there who do the same, shoot a .50 cal sabot round for deer, rather than the full bore standard. More range with a flatter trajectory seems to be a selling point.