Why an AR 308?

[Wildalaska]

I really would like someone to prove to me (or convince me) that the M1a is an inferior civilian weapon to a 308 AR.

For those of you who are pogues, yes, dahlings, the Knights SR25 is a superb $6,000 sniper rifle that is great for SOCOM and special teams, but we arent talking about being stealthy....

And for those of you who have served (thank you), I would look forward to your answer.

To me, an accurized AR308 is no better shooting than an Accurized M1a. Ergonomically, in std configuration, the M1A is far more ergonomically friendly, more reliable, easier to clean...


WildoldschoolAlaska ™

[jrothWA]

he can buy his way into "sniperdom".
The AR's are capitalizing on the basic familiarity of the M16 family, I have the M1A for over the course matches have shot some 1000ydrs but thankfully I kept my "supporter" card.

Now back to my real love, for over the course, M1 Garand (7.62NATO), of course!

Something solid of that: "thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, thump & Piiing"!

[Rattlehead]

Why not? Serious answer. Some people are partial to the AR platform...

[Wildalaska]

Why not? Serious answer. Some people are partial to the AR platform...

Some folks are partial to High Points too :)

What I'm saying, backwards I reckon, is that in a 308 semi auto, the M1A is superior to the AR308.

WildandiyethaveheardotherwiseAlaska ™.

[gunmoney]

Burden of proof is in your court. Tells us why. Ergonomics to you may mean nothing to me.

[pythagorean]

The AR in 7.62 is heavy compared to the 5.56.

End of post.

[hodaka]

I've had both, have neither now. I don't think one is better than the other. The AR offers AR ergonomics and AR manual of arms. The 1A is a fine wood and steel rifle. I think that for scope and bipod use the AR gets the nod. I think us old pharts like the Garand-like features and the walnut and steel. I currently own a PTR and I think I like the AR and 1A better than the PTR.

[geetarman]

I have one of each. I like both. I shoot both. I will keep both.

Geetarman:D

[velocette]

With respect, Wild, an M1a basic rifle is about $1800. A basic DPMS LR 308 with a good trigger is about $1000.
Now you gotta know that I am prejudiced. I own a DPMS LR 308B that shoots now an has for over 4 years shot 1 moa or less with decent ammo. Right out of the box no modifications. It now has about 2000 rds downrange & it has been absolutely reliable with commercial ammo and my reloads.
In order to equal the accuracy of the DPMS, the M1a must be accurized at (very) significant expense and they must be re-accurized periodically to maintain moa accuracy.
The STOCK as issued M14 or M1a is an absolutely excellent battle rifle. IMHO, the only one better than my beloved M1 Garand.
My DPMS as a battle rifle may not be quite as good as my M1 or an M1a / M14. As a civilian shooters target / SHTF, plinking rifle, the DPMS is superior
If you're gonna categorically say that one rifle is better than another, perhaps the venue must be stated.

By the way, good job of stirring up a hornets nest.

LOL Roger

[jaughtman]

so send me one of each and I will give you an unbiased answer!

J

[TXGunNut]

^^^^what jman said. Case of ammo too and we'll get back to you with full range reports.

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Between an AR-10 and an M1A, I'd go for the M1A all the way. Simple, beautiful...

[FALshootist]

Me, I like the FAL. No its not as accurate with open sights, as the front sight is attached to the upper reciever and the rear are attached to the lower, but with a good scope mount they are both on the upper.

For a real sniper rifle I think the AR platform has it down with a lot less modification and cost than the old M21 or its newer incarnations.

The M14/M1A is a cool civilian weapon and can be made very accurate. But its a pain in the ass to mount a scopre and its expensive to accuraize to match level.

[natjohnb]

If I ever get the scratch together for a semi-auto .308 (I currently have no need for one, not that that should stop me) I want the M1A based on cool factor alone.

plus the ergonomics are better for me...

and the long-action AR's look retarded to me:)

[Palmetto-Pride]

I really would like someone to prove to me (or convince me) that the M1a is an inferior civilian weapon to a 308 AR.

You must have some doubt of your own or otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to start this thread.......good luck convincing yourself.....:eek:

[Zak Smith]

Ken,

I won't try to convince you either way, but the most compelling arguments for an "AR" pattern rifle in .308 over an M1A assuming the person needs/wants a .308:

* more accurate out of the box than an M1A, no "accurizing" required

* geometry set up correctly for optics from the start

* no legacy issues like bedding

* contemporary ubiquitous manual of arms


-z

[SVO]

I'm with those who believe that out of the box, the AR is more accurate than a rack grade M1A. A match grade M1A is a different story.

Both are heavy as hell with a full 20 round magazine.

[platform]

for me AR with forehand grip is easier to shoot well standing up. I do not like the sling hold trick...

[Wildalaska]

Zak:

On the other hand:

------>more accurate out of the box than an M1A, no "accurizing" required......isnt that dependent on the specific model purchased?

---------> geometry set up correctly for optics from the start...and if your arent using optics?

----------> contemporary ubiquitous manual of arms...dumbing down?:p

WildthisismygunAlaska TM

[Zak Smith]

...isnt that dependent on the specific model purchased?
Sure, but a DPMS LR308 sells for about $1100. A Super Match M1A starts about $2100; it's not uncommon to see match M1A/M14's for $2500-4500. For comparison, the LaRue OSR is about $2900 and the Noveske N6 is about $3100- so certainly you can spend a lot of money on an AR pattern also. But the point is for AR pattern rifles if you take an in-spec receiver, add a decent barrel, and put on a float tube - like that DPMS - it'll shoot good with no "accurizing."

geometry set up correctly for optics from the start...and if your arent using optics?
The geometry wouldn't be any worse than an M16, and NRAHP shooters seem to have pretty good luck with the AR-15 platform at long range (comparing ergonomics only for iron sight shooting not caliber). But I agree that if not using optics the AR platform gives up a lot of comparative advantage.

contemporary ubiquitous manual of arms...dumbing down?
Not at all - it is just set up better for efficient and more reliable human operation.

[FALacy]

M1a's take A LOT of work to get them to shoot 1 MOA and A LOT of maintenance to keep them there. There isn't a single maker of an AR in .308 who's guns don't shoot 1 MOA out of the box, and most have 1 MOA - 1.5 MOA guarantees. AR10's are more ergonomic in every definition of the word.

The M1a - The safety is tough to access and manipulate, magazines need to be inserted at an angle, the bolt release is on the wrong side.

The AR - The safety is right next to your thumb, magazine release is right at the tip of your index finger, bolt release is on left side so your trigger hand never leaves the grip and keeps the rifle on target during a reload, the stock is adjustable in some configurations for different shooter sizes.

The M1a is also tough to mount optics on. Scout mounts work but you need scopes with long eye reliefs, the receiver mounted ones hurt reliability. The AR it is extremely easy to mount optics on.

So the AR is more accurate, ergonomic, and it mounts optics easier.

I've owned both and the AR is most definitely the superior modern firearm.

[Wildalaska]

Not at all - it is just set up better for efficient and more reliable human operation.

as to the M1a, seems to me that having a safety acessible to anyone, even the small handed, is more efficient for humans;)

WildasistheablitytoclearjamswithoutaknifeAlaska TM

[Zak Smith]

I might call it a draw on the safety even though it is not analogous to pistol safety operation; however, magazine changes are more difficult to do right and do right fast. If I were going to compete with an iron-sighted .308 it would be an M1A/M14. Several of my friends campaigned M1A's in He-Man class in 3-Gun with success.

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

I like wood and steel... An AR 10 does not offer that.. The AR10 feel like an aluminum and plastic toy in comparison..

[ISC]

I love my M14, but it is really old school design with good accuracy. It has had a trigger job and is pretty accurate, but I have decided to buy a .308 AR instead of scoping my M14

Here's why:

1) the .308 AR I'm getting has a flat top upper and removable front sight. I won't need to buy an additional scope mount or remove any parts (rear sight) in oder to install the scope.

2) My M14 is quite accurate, but I doubt it's sub MOA. That degree of accuracy is normal for .308 ARs, rather than exceptional.

3) I anticipate being able to interchange some parts (furniture, sights, trigger) with my AR 15s and M14. I can't interchange anything with any other weapons and my M14, not even my Garand.

4) I've been a soldier for 10+ years and know the AR design intimately. mag changes, disassembly, and site adgustments are simple and fast, nopt just because I've practiced doing it a gazillion times in a billion different environments, but also because they were designed to be user friendly.

5) I'd be interested in seeing a competition for 10 rifleman, experienced with ARs and 1 with M14s to field strip, reassmble, and function check their rifles. I suspect that, while it may be close, the AR times would be faster.

BTW, I paid $1100 for my M14 5 years ago and think I got a great deal on it. It was like new with a trigger job and hand lapped bolt by a retired navy armorer. I don't think I could touch it for under $1500 today.

I'll spend about $950 on my .308 AR and expect it to be more accurate than the M14 without having to do anything to it.

[5.56RifleGuy]

1100 for an M14 is a really really good price.

[lmccrock]

Disclaimer: I have AR rifles in 223 and 308, and a couple of M1 rifles, but no M1A. I shot an M1A a couple times, and the ergonomics are similar to an M1.
Ergonomically, in std configuration, the M1A is far more ergonomically friendly, more reliable, easier to clean.
Not for me. The pistol grip is far more ergonomically friendly. Easier to clean? In an AR, pop the rear pin and clean the barrel and receivers. Pop both pins to make it easier. No worries about damaging the match bedding. And, my AR's are reliable, unless I put crummy mags or ammo in them, and the M14 platform has that same issue.

The AR10 feel like an aluminum and plastic toy in comparison
I suppose there are enough models that some might not feel as solid as an M1A, but my DPMS LR308 is heavier than my M1 rifles by about 1.5 lbs. It is a beast, even with iron sights.

Lee

[Dobe]

A lot of the ergonomics are a matter of stock configuration. The M1a/M14 can be put into a more ergonomically friendly stock. However a DI system is inherently more accurate. Maintenance on an AR is easier to perform in shop and in the field.

Parts are not as easy to acquire for the M1a's as they once were.

We are only using the M14 for military use now, because we have them in stock, not because they are a better choice of weapons.

[Logs]

I have an M1A and like it very much, but I would still like to have a AR in 308. I like the platform of the AR and would like to have one for my collection. Right now it comes down to which one to get???

[Abndoc]

In California, (sigh), I don't have to use a bullet button on the M1a.

[HiBC]

My DPMS LR308L weighs 7.9 lbs,is free floated,has a good trigger.It was about 1200 dollars.
I put on a Magpul ACS collapsable stock.I like being able to change LOP to get ideal eye relief.
I also put a 9 3/4 in ARMS Swan sleeve on it.I use an Armalite ringmount positioned forward on the sleeve.
I borrowed a Leu VX3 3.5-10 B+C off another rifle.Its a bit much,I'll probably go with a 2.5-8.
This rifle works fine,its a reasonable weight,balanced package.
Better????Subjective matter of preferences.I prefer it.
I think your M1A is cool,and I'll smile.I'll happily shoot it.I do not want to trade.

[SR420]

.308 AR ~ .308 M1A

I have owned both.
The M1A was problematic, but that was a QC problem with Springfield Armory, Inc.
The Armalite AR-10 was flawless, but it didn't feel right and it was heavier than expected.

I parted out the M1A and sold off the AR-10.

I now own a few 7.62x51 M14s, custom built by SEI for me on Chinese receivers.
All but one are in modern SAGE EBR stocks with pistol grips.

Very accurate without constant tweaking & rebedding.
Ergonomically enhanced and user friendly.
Very reliable... AK47 like reliability.


Is the Bamashooter type rifle an overpriced, inadequate rifle?



.

[B. Lahey]

I want a .308 AR because I like ARs and I don't have one. No other reason, really, and the same reason I had Smith build me an M14... I just want one.

I like the Colt A4gery you Wild Westerners built for me nearly as much as my M14, so heck, why not expand the assortment?

You want a practical answer? I don't have one. Rifles are supremely impractical for me. I don't hunt with them; in fact I can't hunt with them in my home state. They make noise and punch holes in paper at great expense, and I think that's hilarious for some reason.

I bought an AUG from you fercripesake...

[Dobe]

The fact that you want one should be reason enough to have one.

[Wildalaska]

I bought an AUG from you fercripesake...


Thats cuz you laugh hysterically at the range when killing paper:D


WildyoudoseemaswierdasmeAlaska TM

[Bamashooter]

well you know what? cost is a huge factor when it comes to buying guns. not everyone has money to blow on a overpriced, inadequate rifle. thats why we buy AR-10's as opposed to the M1A becouse when i spend money i need it to go a long way. AR-10's give you accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and the ability to modify at a reasonable price, as opposed to the M1A which, in my opinion is overpriced, overrated, has poor accuracy as opposed to the AR, and a outdated design.from a historical standpoint i can see owning one. from a practical standpoint i would have to go with the AR-10. imho, you get way more bang for the buck.

[4V50 Gary]

There's a generational difference between the gas-impingement system of the AR and the gas-piston M-14. The former is stationary and has the gas traveling down the gas tube. Said gas then works on the bolt carrier which pushes the buffer back, compressing the buffer spring and cocking the hammer.

The M-14's gas system has gas pushing on the piston, which then drives the op-rod back, which then unlocks the bolt and pushes the bolt back, compressing the op-rod spring in the process and cocking the hammer.

What's the difference? Fewer parts on the AR system. There's less things to worry about and hence more consistent harmonics.

Granted the M-14 is more ergonomic. Pick one up and then pick up an AR in 7.62 mm Nato. However, the M-14 is tough to keep in top-shooting condition. The stock's bedding can get worn every time you pull it apart for cleaning. Reassembly doesn't ensure that it is locked down consistently either (creating more inconsistencies that alter the harmonics).

[Dobe]

Granted the M-14 is more ergonomic.:confused:

[SR420]

The modernized M-14 is easy to keep in top-shooting condition.
No bedding to wear out... everything goes back together nice and tight.

[Dobe]

That's true, but the maintenance/field maintenance will never be as easy as it is on an AR.

Also, it is simply easier to get an AR to shoot tight groups.

I think the M14 is a good battle rifle, it has served this country well, but its time is about over.

[natjohnb]

well you know what? cost is a huge factor when it comes to buying guns. not everyone has money to blow on a overpriced, inadequate rifle. thats why we buy AR-10's as opposed to the M1A becouse when i spend money i need it to go a long way. AR-10's give you accuracy, reliability, ergonomics, and the ability to modify at a reasonable price, as opposed to the M1A which, in my opinion is overpriced, overrated, has poor accuracy as opposed to the AR, and a outdated design.from a historical standpoint i can see owning one. from a practical standpoint i would have to go with the AR-10. imho, you get way more bang for the buck.

Where have I heard that before?

Oh yeah, all those Glock/Poly vs. 1911 threads.

They say the 1911 is overpriced, outdated, inadequate, and overrated... yet it endures

I have a 1911 on my nightstand and it suits me just fine, and if I ever fill the niche in my collection for a .308 battle rifle, it will be filled just fine by an M1A :D

[Bamashooter]

good!!! personally i say, to each his own. what i like you may not, and what you like i may not. im just being practical and frugal. :)

[SR420]

The AR type needs to be easier to clean in the field because DI systems get
dirty quick and require a more meticulous cleaning more often than the M14.

[Dobe]

That was maintenance, not cleaning.

[SR420]

The modernized M14 should require less maintenance/field maintenance than the .308 AR.

I understand that complete M14EBR-RI rifles are now on hand to swap out for the rare broke M14.

[DnPRK]

Nobody ever had to scrape carbon residue off an M-14 or M-1A gas plug/gas cylinder/piston?

Please tell me how that is sooooooooooooooooooo much easier than scraping residue off an AR's bolt carrier group? :rolleyes:

[Dobe]

The modernized M14 should require less maintenance/field maintenance than the .308 AR.
Why?

[SR420]

Nobody ever had to scrape carbon residue off... :rolleyes:

DI systems get dirty quick and require a more meticulous cleaning more often than the M14.

Why?


Your implication was that cleaning isn't maintenance and I understand that
complete M14EBR-RI rifles are now on hand to swap out for the rare broke M14.

That was maintenance, not cleaning.

[Dobe]

The modernized M14 should require less maintenance/field maintenance than the .308 AR. Your implication is parts maintenance, not dirt.

And cleaning a weapon is part of the job.

[Fat White Boy]

I'm with Geetarman- Have one of each in the safe. Keeping both....

[flight954]

I've got a Socom16 and a Rock River LAR-8. Two very different rifles. I like them both for varying reasons.

[Buzzcook]

How many way sooper kulh mods r there 4 teh m1a? Rails luk stoopid on a wood gun. Thatz y the AR rawks. /haxor

One of the nice things about the AR platform is that it is easily modified with both tacticool and useful accessories.
Pull length to long? No problem slap on an adjustable stock. Want to hunt hogs at night? No problem slap on a flashlight or a night scope. Want a light weight mountain gun? No problem, light weight modern synthetics.

I prefer apples to oranges.

[HiBC]

Powder technology from 50 years ago used calcium carbonate retardant to control burn rate.It was dirty.It does not work out well in direct impingement systemsThat was a hard learned lesson It is also another example of our government in action.Stoner designed the rifle to use proper powder.If you put gasoline in a deisel motor,it is not going to work out.A Garand,M-14,or FAL cqan use it just fine.The gas systems were designed to work with it.
I loaded up some ammo with 2520 for my FAL and it ground to a stop in less than 60 rounds.Nasty,gritty fouling.

With 69 gr 223 or with 168 gr 308,every time I open them up after shooting I am impressed by how little fouling is present.I use Varget.I am sure they will go just fine shooting more ammo than I can carry.

If proper ammo is used,it is a problem that does not exist.

Short of spending a fortune on exotics,can we get an M1A platform that comes in weighing comparable to a common bolt sporter?
I do not want to carry a 12 pound rifle at 9000 feet,up and down.That means I don't want an AR-10 T for hunting,or an FAL(that is why I sold my FAL),or an M1A

I also want to be able to sling up without changing POI.I prefer free float.

My LR 308 L,as already stated,7.9 lbs and free floated.