Firing 3-Round Burst in Combat

[45ACPShooter]

I'm in the Army and have always been trained to fire in controlled pairs. The only time I've ever been able to fire 3-round burst is when there's an excess of ammo and they're just trying to get rid of it.

So my question is whether there is a practical purpose for the 3 round burst vs controlled pairs? Also when would it be used?

[FrankenMauser]

Suppressing fire.


And... like you said.... The only time I ever got to shoot (or even chose to shoot) on anything but semi-auto, was when we had massive amounts of ammunition that had to "disappear".

(For one reason or another, it was deemed unusable. But... as a maintenance unit, we couldn't bury it, turn it over to another unit, throw it away, detonate it, or even legally shoot it. It was one of those situations where there is no approved method for disposal. We just had to pretend it was already gone when we found out about whatever the issue was. "Hey guys, we just got another notice. Tomorrow is range day. Looks like 13,000 5.56 and 1,400 7.62.")

[Buzzcook]

What is the deal about the military having to burn off excess ammo?

At Ft. Lewis one year they had to close I-5 because clouds of tear gas spread over the highway.

[aroundchicago]

Unless you're putting down suppressive fire, it's stupid to waste ammo. Make every round count. One shot at a time makes more sense.

[Italian_Marksman94]

Its easy to say make every round count until you get ambushed by a bunch of bushy bearded men at night with tracers flying all around your head.

[ronl]

Keep your head and you won't lose it. One shot, one kill is always the best policy. You throw a bunch of lead down range and it's sure to draw attention. Just make them count.

[HorseSoldier]

Break contact drills. Suppressive fire, as mentioned. Possibly if you're conducting a near ambush and just want to slather the kill zone with rounds, (though even then the book answer is that's what your SAWs and MGs are for).

I've heard from various people that the Marines were doing three round bursts as their SOP for CQB engagements in Iraq at one point. Maybe somebody from that side of the house who's BTDT can verify or clarify.

I never got much training at all on burst, but did enough range work on auto with an M4A1 to be familiar with how to use it. It never really seemed preferable to controlled pairs/etc on semi, and if you're running your weapon properly (on safe until engaging, etc) it's slower to engage with auto/burst than semi, since you've got to haul that selector around 180 degrees.

What is the deal about the military having to burn off excess ammo?

A) If they give you X amount of ammo during this fiscal year, and you only shoot half of it, they're likely to only give you 1/2 of X the next year. This is pretty much a generic truism about the military that holds true for all sorts of stuff -- ammo, fuel, money, etc.

Besides burning up excess ammo (the unofficial term is "SPENDEX"), I've also had situations come down where, sometime in late September, my SGM would get off the phone and inform everybody that we had til close of business to generate a wish list of stuff we needed to get our mission done better/easier/whatever because Group headquarters had end of the year money laying around and it was use-it-or-lose-it time.

B) Sometimes during the course of training ammo gets broken down into a format where turning it back in is a PITA for both the unit with the ammo and the guys working the ammo point they got it issued from. It's just good business to not be "that guy" who brings back cans and cans of loose rounds to the ASP.

[Technosavant]

(For one reason or another, it was deemed unusable. But... as a maintenance unit, we couldn't bury it, turn it over to another unit, throw it away, detonate it, or even legally shoot it. It was one of those situations where there is no approved method for disposal. We just had to pretend it was already gone when we found out about whatever the issue was. "Hey guys, we just got another notice. Tomorrow is range day. Looks like 13,000 5.56 and 1,400 7.62.")

Sounds like one of those "It's a dirty job, but SOMEONE has to do it" times. :D

[tirod]

3 round burst was scienced out by the Germans IIRC, who were looking at hit probability of ammo when firing full auto. Because recoil makes the barrel rise, even on a intermediate caliber, by the third shot, hit probability drops to about 50%. More usually goes over the enemy's head.

It was a serious problem with the M14 and the reason full auto fire was generally discontinued in that weapon. True machine guns are heavy enough to keep the barrel down - as the SAW gunner will explain.

So, it's more efficient to keep full auto down to 3 rounds. Two shot semi auto fire is taught to be better - because the emphasis is on aiming. It's hard enough to get hits on running targets who don't stay up longer than the shooter's reaction and acquisition time, burst is good there. Stationary, double taps are more effective.

[Brian Pfleuger]

(For one reason or another, it was deemed unusable. But... as a maintenance unit, we couldn't bury it, turn it over to another unit, throw it away, detonate it, or even legally shoot it. It was one of those situations where there is no approved method for disposal. We just had to pretend it was already gone when we found out about whatever the issue was. "Hey guys, we just got another notice. Tomorrow is range day. Looks like 13,000 5.56 and 1,400 7.62.")
Sounds like one of those "It's a dirty job, but SOMEONE has to do it" times.

More like, "Sounds like a prime example of why our nation is going bankrupt!"


Not that it's the fault of the guys using the ammo, it's stupid, stupid policy that no one can understand... or change. Typical.

[5RWill]

I've heard from various people that the Marines were doing three round bursts as their SOP for CQB engagements in Iraq at one point. Maybe somebody from that side of the house who's BTDT can verify or clarify.

Exactly what i was thinking. I bet they use 3 round burst and if some have the models with full auto that too in CQB. 1 shot one kill is the effective way all around, but i could see 3 round burst or full auto coming in handy when breaching a building.

[Retired15T]

With the natural way a light weight weapon tends to fire upwards on auto, having the three round burst is good for clearing structures in a hurry when you know bad guys are in there. You aim for the belly button and by the time the third round is on the way, you've "stitched" them from belly button to upper chest. At least, that's what I was taught by various experts while in the Army and it does seem to work pretty well. In such close quarters as urban warfare, where you're turning through doorways and hallways one after the other, you may not have time to always ensure your enemy is dead before making the next turn or encountering the next BG. But if you've stitched them, there's a better chance you've killed them.

That was back in the mid 90's when I was training with some SF guys. As an aviator, we had training scenarios where me the Crew Chief and my pilots had our helicopter shot down and now, while egressing the area, we have to "fall in" with the asset sent to retrieve us.

Luckily, I never had to put that into use in a real world scenario.

[kaylorinhi]

It is SOP at "some" units to have the Assitant Automatic Rifleman use 3rd if the SAW is reloading to maintain the rate of fire until the saw back in the fight.

Also if you know what you are doing a 3rd burst can be controlled by almost anyone but like stated earlier most often it turns into a rampant waste of ammo! If the other bad guy is close and "needs" it for some reason sure use it but watch your ammo!

[starbuck125]

the gov fisical year starts the 1st. of oct. each section, branch of gov. including the military is allocated some much funds for that year. if you only use so much of it that year.the following year , it won"nt be as much, cause they did"ny use all of last years funds. in other words they gotta spend, use up their yearly supply to get more the following year. stupid way to do things, very wasteful. but this is nothing new to the gov.

[TPAW]

So my question is whether there is a practical purpose for the 3 round burst vs controlled pairs? Also when would it be used?

If your in the army, wouldn't you already have learned when to use 3 round bursts or controlled pairs. It would seem to me that your firearms instructor should be able to answer your question.

[RimfireChris]

I guess this is why the AN-94 fires a really fast-like 1100 rpm- double tap instead of three, but fires full auto at 600 and some change rpm.

[Technosavant]

if you only use so much of it that year.the following year , it won"nt be as much, cause they did"ny use all of last years funds. in other words they gotta spend, use up their yearly supply to get more the following year.

That's how it works in many businesses as well. Things run lean for most of the year, then as the end of fiscal year hits, there's a spending spree. Part of it is indeed this kind of "spend it now or they'll cut us," some of it can be "we waited all year to see if we'd have unexpected expenses, since we haven't, we can get some of that wish list covered."

[kraigwy]

What is the deal about the military having to burn off excess ammo?

I was running a sniper school at Ft Richardson Alaska in the 80s, when I was contacted by a young LT to asked if I could help him out. It appeared he had some ammo he needed to get rid of or he would loose his next years allocation.

I told him I would and he showed up with 34K rounds of 5.56 and 26K Rounds of 7.62 Linked.

I drew some M16A1s and some service grade M14s out of my arms room and kept the students over the weekend, telling them to GET AFTER IT.

The army's ammo policy (and other silly rules regarding supply) leads to waste (but fun shooting).

Its harder to turn in un-fired ammo then it is to draw it.

Oh and if you doubt the reliability of the M16a1, take 10 rifles, and 34K rounds and get rid of it in about 8 hours.

For the OPs original question, the three round burst was designed for fire discipline. I've seen I don't know how many 18 or 28 round burst (depending on a 20 or 30 round mag). I don't care how big and tough you are, you arnt gonna keep the rounds on target with an M-16 (at 50 yards) with anything over a 3 round burst.

[troy_mclure]

when i was in the 101 my company did a division expendex. spent a whole week at the ranges.

everything from 100k lead cored .223(transitioning to lead free), to expired/out of issue munitions, like pre-korean war era mines and demolitions, several thousand 40mm grenades of various types not issued, etc...

its fun for a bit, then it gets boring fast.

[44 AMP]

Having served before the advent of 3rnd burst systems, we dealt with either semi or full auto. It may come as a shock to you guys, but the average GI is neither a gun enthusiast, nor a great shot. Some are, most aren't. Guys on the sharp end tend to focus more on those things than guys who spend all their time doing something else and only go to the range once a year.

The idea behind adopting the 3rd burst was that it increased hit probability over firing single shots (when aimed), and reduced ammo wastage compared to continous full auto.

Training, training, training, getting it pounded into your head to fire short bursts, conserve ammo, and still close to half will rock & roll until the bolt locks back. I hope its better today, but 30-40 years ago, thats the way it was.

Way back when the Army issued M 14s with selector switches, they found out that give the average grunt something that goes full auto, and thats where they tend to use it. And with the high cyclic rate of the M14, along with its light weight for caliber in full auto fire, hey found out fast that troops ran out of ammo and didn't hit squat, most of the time. So the removed the selector lever from the majority of M14s.

I can see a use for burst fire, if used like single aimed shots. With the small caliber bullets of the 5.56mm, multiple hits produce better results.

Notice, however, that today, not all variants of the M16 are fitted with burst fire. Some are back to full auto. Apparently the military feels that is better for certain mission requirements.

[James R. Burke]

I believe in combat when you can controlled one shot at a time if possiable. It was stupid but it was a lot harder turning back in than get "RID" of it. With the extra we would use a post hole digger, and put in all the extra 90 pounds crater charges. Then we would put on top of it every thing we were not turning back in. The best one was 15 holes ith a 90 pound crater charge in each on, then on top of those we put something like 1,000 feet of det cord, about five hunderd sticks of t.n.t. a couple thousand blasting caps, electric, and non electric, and I can't even guess at the amount of ammo differnt calibers. Our Captain got in a bunch of trouble. We exceed the range limit a little, and a Col was some distance away in a helicopter when e touched it off. It took a few D8-K dosers the better part of a afternoon to put the range back together. But that was cool. You could see the mushroom go up then there was a pause, then you felt a sick feeling and one loud blast.

[starbuck125]

Mr. Burke wrote: You could see the mushroom go up then there was a pause, then you felt a sick feeling and one loud blast.

now that brings back memories! when i first went in the army some 20 yrs. ago, we had the m16a1, full auto, then we got the m16a2, 3 round burst. we was told that the powers that be, decided that full auto with a m16, never really hit anything,after the first couple rds. used up way too much ammo. 3 rd. burst ,your better able to control the weapon.
i think this all came about after the m16"s use in vietnam, where there was way more ammo being used per ratio, than kills. reports of troops runnin out of ammo, while using full auto.
full auto is very full,....but after a few rounds you can forget about hitting your target.

[45ACPShooter]

If your in the army, wouldn't you already have learned when to use 3 round bursts or controlled pairs. It would seem to me that your firearms instructor should be able to answer your question.

Apparently not because I've been in for four years now and was never told when to use 3 round bursts. Also there is no firearms instructor usually just an non-commissioned officer will explain to us what to we're doing at that particular range. With everyone standing on the firing line ready to go, you can't really raise your hand and ask a question. Also, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Army but in all the platoons I've belonged to your supposed to follow the chain of command and you can't just go straight up to the E-6 who was explaining the training and ask him a question. You have to go through your team leader who in my case is an E-5 and doesn't really have any more of an idea than I do on if there's a particular situation in which you use 3 round bursts.

[AK103K]

Training, training, training,
or lack of it seems to be the issue here.

With a little basic instruction, its very easy to control most shoulder fired autos. There is a definite technique, but its pretty simple, and most anyone can learn it, if they bother to teach it.

The reason the gun climbs, and usually in the direction of the strong hand, is because the shooter is "trying" to hold it down, which is a mistake. If you relax, and "ride" the gun, it will let you put the rounds right into where youre looking, out to a reasonable range, assuming you understand your range limitations. Close up, you can very easily shoot two, three, five round bursts, and even full mag dumps into COM, and no trigger device is necessary to do so, other than your trigger finger and your brain.

Over the years, one thing thats amazed me the most is, supposed combat vets, had so much trouble, with even pistol caliber guns, when actually given the opportunity. Either they were never actually taught to shoot them in the first place (my assumption all along), or they forgot everything they ever knew. Most had a lot of trouble just hitting a silhouette at 10 yards, and many were just down right scary.

[HorseSoldier]

Most ranges guys get to shoot their issued rifles at are not rated for automatic fire. Add to that the doctrinal decision that semi is better with a rifle most of the time, and you get situations where guys maybe do a burst fam fire in basic training and then that's it. There's no annual weapons training block the chain of command has to get checked off for using burst, nor any ammunition allocated specifically for it. Basically, there's about nothing in the Big Army way of doing things that remotely favors guys getting training on shooting their rifles on burst.

In USASOC things are different, beginning with a belief that knowing how to run your weapon extends beyond getting a passing score on the qual range and ending with greater latitude for training and ammunition available to take guys out to the range (even guys whose job isn't trigger pulling) and making sure they know how to make things work.

[Jimro]

If you aren't trained on how to tactically use three round burst, you really shouldn't worry about it.

It is a feature that is of limited use in our current doctrine, sort of a backup for when you can't gain fire superiority by any other means. The issue of the m249 to the fire team has given us a true suppressive fire weapon to gain fire superiority.

As a rifleman you are better off taking careful aimed shots at distance, and controlled pairs at CQB ranges. You will not run afoul of any ROE violations, nor will you waste ammunition.

Jimro

[SIGSHR]

Cynic that I am, I note a 3 round burst with 5.56 ammo just about equals the weight of 1 7.62 round.
Ah yes, the old "use it or lose it" policy. Several of the gun buffs I knew in the Guard and the Reserves said that's how they got a lot of their ammo.

[James R. Burke]

I was in 36 years ago when they were either single or full auto. We would practice a three round burst, but hard to do. I am a a belivever in one shot at a time, unless there is something going on were it is really needed. After that first shot your all over the place.

[5RWill]

Honestly they need to develop a assault rifle built like the Kriss or the AN-94. Preferably the kriss. But having a place for the recoil to escape to makes the gun much much more controllable on full auto/3 round burst.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2kEg8rEPl8

Device that in a rifle somehow and it's a start. ;)

[Technosavant]

Honestly they need to develop a assault rifle built like the Kriss or the AN-94. Preferably the kriss. But having a place for the recoil to escape to makes the gun much much more controllable on full auto/3 round burst.

For the Kriss system to be used with a rifle caliber, even a relatively mild one like the 5.56 round, I would imagine the recoil absorption system would make the weapon very heavy and extremely unwieldy. It works in the .45ACP chambering, but it's not all that compact a package considering it's an overgrown subgun.

As for the AN-94, IIRC, the Russians decided it was too expensive and complex for a general issue rifle. It has a neat capability in that super fast 2 shot ability, but I'm just not sure how practically useful it might be- if your first shot isn't on target, your second one won't be either. If your first shot is on target, your second one may not be needed- two shots down essentially the same hole aren't as worthwhile as two shots spaced a few inches apart.

[demigod]

I was doing some testing on Friday with full auto controllability. Even with a Muzzle Brake and the close range of 30 feet, it was not very easy to keep all hits on an IPSC style target.

Controlled pairs on the other hand were much more effective and easy to achieve. Getting both rounds of the controlled pair on a smaller target was easier than full auto on the larger target. There's videos of both of the scenarios in my BCM middy review thread....

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=413997

[BlueTrain]

There are still people who don't understand the concept of firepower. Were real life otherwise, the army would only have snipers. Even during the revolution, the one shot one hit concept didn't hold a lot of water. Firepower ruled the battlefield then and now.

If you are worried about all that ammuntion going up in smoke, you'd be surprised to know what they use for targets.

[stevedscross]

In Iraq I used the burst mode only for two things.. One is to put lots of rounds into car trying to run a check point. The other is inside a building. At close ranges say under 10 yards a burst into the chest worked much better than semi auto. The insurgents like to get high before a gunfight. the euforic feeling brings them closer to God. Or so they say. So nouthing short of a brain or spinal hit worked really well. but for a burst with the first round aimed at the sternum between the nipples and let the other two climb and hit neck or so. I shot one guy who had caught a hand gernade and was literally torn in half by it. He was trying to drag his upper half the few more feet to his rifle. But a burst into his chest and head stoped him. But apart from shooting at cars and close range inside a building aimed semi auto fire is better. But apart from a 2000lb JDAM nouthing stops those guys with one hit. (head shots excluded of course) It really is a horrible thing war.

[R1145]

I think 3 round burst came out of a desire to increase hit probability. There were lots of studies back in the '60s and '70s about how to increase lethality (SALVO, flechettes, etc.).

The other case is that it keeps the guys from sprayin' and prayin' too much. I saw the footage of the guys in 'Nam, holding the rifle over the berm and emptying it...

I'm not a fan of it. I'd keep it semi-auto all the time, and stick with the double taps when necessary. Leave the rock and roll to the SAW gunner.

With individual weapons, full auto is useful in near-ambush situations and maybe room clearing. Outside of those type of scenarios, there's a case for very disciplined short burst during fire and maneuver, but it takes teamwork and discipline (lots of training).

As far as burning ammo goes, one time I was tasked to get rid of 2000 rounds of match-grade .45 ball. We still had M-3A1 submachine guns ("grease guns") as the TO&E weapon for the recovery vehicle drivers (though they never left the vault), so I got a couple and we had a great time playing "Dirty Dozen" out at Fort Irwin...

Wasting Class V is evil, though, because there is a proper way to turn in surplus ammo that doesn't affect the unit's allocation, but it takes more paperwork and labor. You know the deal, though: Between the stars and the bars, stuff falls through the cracks...

[AK103K]

Even with a Muzzle Brake and the close range of 30 feet, it was not very easy to keep all hits on an IPSC style target.
It takes a little practice, but once you understand that you dont try to control the gun, but relax and go with it, it will all click. Your focus is on the target, and not the sights. If you try to sight like you would when shooting semi, your results will not be as good, and especially with longer bursts (which are really nothing but to show it can be done anyway, and not normally used, other than for IAD's, etc.). I find it actually works better to shoot just barely over the sights than through them too, especially with "peeps".

One of our little competitions when we used to get together with siome friends was, a standard sized paper plate at around 10 yards. One full mag, and youre allowed one pull of the trigger. My kids passed more than they failed, at 10 or 11 using my MP5. I'm sure a big, strong Army man can do it too. :)

Also keep in mind, you have to understand its use, and when and when not its appropriate. While it does have a more narrow "realistic" use window, its still a very useful thing to have, and I'd rather have it, and know when and what to do with it, than to not have it and wish I did.

I understand that the military has to deal with the lowest common denominator, but this isnt rocket science, nor is it difficult to master. I've taught a lot of people to do so, including little kids and people who have very little shooting experience, and most all of them had it figured out in a mag or two.

As I said earlier, some of the scariest people I've ever been near, are the "vets". I've heard all sorts of stories over the years from a lot of ex military about how to shoot them and what you can do with them (my favorite is shooting an M14, loaded with nothing but tracers yet, into 4" at 100 yards while on "full" :rolleyes:), but it all seems to be forgotten, when you place even a full sized, pistol caliber SMG into their hands, and let them show you.

Training, as simple as it can be, is still everything. Its not the guns fault, if you cant shoot it.

[demigod]

I find it actually works better to shoot just barely over the sights than through them too, especially with "peeps".

That makes sense. I'll have to try that next time.

When I was doing my test of two uppers, I shot them each the same, so the comparison was even as far as stance and technique.

My favorite full auto experience was with a silencer mounted and holding the AR tight on top of a pack set up on a heavy table. There was a big hunk of steel on the range that day. And I got to hear the 3 rounds supressed and the 3 impacts on the steel at 50 yards or so.... It was really cool... One of those big grin moments.

[BlueTrain]

An old Canadian or British training manual from WWII that I have (but not in front of me) actually says that you shouldn't use the sights for burst fire. It said you won't have time. But that was for a Sten gun, which you were supposed to use something like a garden hose, if you follow me. I suspect that different techniques are called for with more powerful weapons. Unfortunately I've never read anything about late war German doctrine for using their new assault rifles. It would be illuminating for sure.

But perhaps that's why they all have selector switches.

However, somewhere along the way things get confused. I've heard that machine gunners are sometimes trained to try to get off single shots. Why bother?

[Madcap_Magician]

It is SOP at "some" units to have the Assitant Automatic Rifleman use 3rd if the SAW is reloading to maintain the rate of fire until the saw back in the fight.

Where's MY Assistant Automatic Rifleman!?!?!?!?
-theangrySAWgunner

[AK103K]

which you were supposed to use something like a garden hose,
That is very much the overall technique. Instead of trying to forcefully control the gun, you simply relax and work the gun like you would a hose trying to spray someone down. This goes for a small burst, or a long one.

There are a couple of schools of thought, but the most realistic, is to "shoot the target", just like you would with anything else. Otherwise, the guns purpose is different. The "sweeping" method you often see in the movies, and also hear a lot from some ex military, usually produces very poor results. The gaps in the "pattern", are VERY big, and a miss is more likely what you can expect than a hit. If you point the gun onto the target, and give it a burst, you normally will have a decent group (depending on range) where you were looking, with all rounds hitting.



But perhaps that's why they all have selector switches.
Not all of them do, nor are they really necessary. Once you get a feel for the gun, and the guns trigger down, you can usually get 1 or 2 round "bursts", on demand. The exceptions being things like the MAC's, and other high cyclic rate guns. My M11/9mm doesnt like to give you anything less than 4 or 5 for the most part. My MP5, single shots on demand, with no effort.

Select fire on guns that use a closed bolt, are nice for precision shots, and should be taken advantage of for them, but even there, they are not really necessary, once youre familiar with the gun.

[specoperator]

If you ever get to go to the range try this:
Fire controlled pairs and really keep going through that trigger as fast and as accurate as you can. Time the event until you get through your 30 rounds. Now do the same with three round burst. You'd be surprised to discover that the time difference is negligable. In a day And age when the Army doesn't trust you to be a soldier the three round burst is nothing more than a pencil pusher's compromise to allow the rifle to have a somewhat automatic option without having to worry about the waste of ammo that is inherent with a full auto.

[Destructo6]

Iron sights are fairly difficult to use during automatic fire, but an Acog, Eotech, or similar can be used quite well.

As AK103k said, if you try to control ("micro-manage," may be a better term) the weapon in automatic bursts, you're going to be all over.

If you put your weight forward and ride the recoil, you should stay on target.

I can easily keep 6-10 round bursts in the 5 ring of a TQ-15 target at 7 yards and keep all but a couple of flyers in the same at 15 yards, sighting through a 3.5 power Acog.