Weatherby Vanguard Synthetic Makeover (w/pics)

[berto255]

She used to look like this:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4244.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4248.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4253.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4469.jpg

[berto255]

New rings & stock
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4684.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4685.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4686.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/IMG_4689.jpg

New Timney trigger coming Wenesday
http://timneytriggers.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=18
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=552716
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/timney.jpg

& new bolt from ShortActionCustom.com in the mail arriving tuesday (Good job Mark)
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c389/ariana_1105/Shooting/bolt2.jpg

[rickyjames]

i'm a BIG vanguard fan having 3 myself. what caliber and what scope power?

[berto255]

rickjames
i'm a BIG vanguard fan having 3 myself. what caliber and what scope power?

.223 and mueller 8-32x44
http://www.muelleroptics.com/products/MU83244TD

[artemka]

Looks like I stumbled across a couple of Weatherby Vanguard fans - my luck!

I just bought four rifles at an auction, and am now trying to pick between two of them to keep in 30-06: a Rem 700 ADL and a Weatherby Vanguard Weatherguard. Both are new (discontinued models, as far as I can tell), and both come with crappy scopes which I'll replace. I'm sure I know what you'll tell me, but any advice on which one to keep?

Thanks.

[berto255]

Looks like I stumbled across a couple of Weatherby Vanguard fans - my luck!

I just bought four rifles at an auction, and am now trying to pick between two of them to keep in 30-06: a Rem 700 ADL and a Weatherby Vanguard Weatherguard. Both are new (discontinued models, as far as I can tell), and both come with crappy scopes which I'll replace. I'm sure I know what you'll tell me, but any advice on which one to keep?

Thanks.

Weatherby's have a rep of shooting flatter than anyother rifle. I can tell you that you r going to upgrade the trigger cuz theirs sucks and the synthetic stock is the biggest piece of crap they ever made. I haven't had to much to do with remis but I heard they are pretty good. Im on the market for a 700LTR or 700P for my next project. My buddy is going to let me shoot his next wednesday. He had a light & crisp trigger (factory adjustable) on his 700 VS. Everyone that buys a 700 always do so to custumize the **** out of it. And they is a lot of aftermarket accessories for the remis.

[csmsss]

Weatherby's have a rep of shooting flatter than anyother rifleReally? Is there something magical about a Weatherby barrel that provides more fps for the same cartridge/barrel length combination that other rifles can't do?

You might be confusing the fact that many Weatherbys are chambered in proprietary Weatherby magnum cartridges that exceed the published velocities of non-Weatherby cartridges in similar bore sizes - but that is a cartridge attribute, not a rifle attribute.

[berto255]

Quote:
Weatherby's have a rep of shooting flatter than anyother rifle

Really? Is there something magical about a Weatherby barrel that provides more fps for the same cartridge/barrel length combination that other rifles can't do?

You might be confusing the fact that many Weatherbys are chambered in proprietary Weatherby magnum cartridges that exceed the published velocities of non-Weatherby cartridges in similar bore sizes - but that is a cartridge attribute, not a rifle attribute.

Well my low end (cheapest) .223 weatherby in non weatherby cartridge will shot sub MOA before the stock, rings & trigger upgrade. So you be the judge. Im a rookie shooter and I can tell you it shoots pretty decent for a low end model (vanguard) vs the mark v. I don't talk down about any brand beacuse they all have their lemons from time to time. I own many handgun consider by many people crap. They all go bang buddy and I can still hit a 8" dinner plate from 10 to 25 yards and thats my 2cents.

[Abel]

Really? Is there something magical about a Weatherby barrel that provides more fps for the same cartridge/barrel length combination that other rifles can't do?

Not magic. Just a longer barrel. The regular barrels on a Weatherby are 24".

[csmsss]

Well my low end (cheapest) .223 weatherby in non weatherby cartridge will shot sub MOA before the stock, rings & trigger upgrade. So you be the judge. Im a rookie shooter and I can tell you it shoots pretty decent for a low end model (vanguard) vs the mark v. I don't talk down about any brand beacuse they all have their lemons from time to time. I own many handgun consider by many people crap. They all go bang buddy and I can still hit a 8" dinner plate from 10 to 25 yards and thats my 2cents. Please don't take offense. I wasn't saying Weatherbys (at any price point) aren't accurate rifles, because that's just not the case. What I was responding to was the "flat shooting" remark - because that implies that the bullet is exiting the barrel at significantly higher velocities than it would from the cartridge/barrel length combination in another maker's rifle. That just can't be.

[berto255]

Weatherbys are known to have one of the best stock barrel on the market. My next rifle won't be a weatherby because I believe in variety. I'm going to get a remy and maybe a savage after that.

[TXGunNut]

Good call on the Timney trigger. That was the best feature on a Vanguard I recently sold. I really like the feel and handling of a Vanguard, this one just didn't cut it.
Not much on ID'ing stocks, who built the one you used to upgrade?

[tachunter]

Weatherby's have a rep of shooting flatter than anyother rifle.

Trajectory has nothing to do with the rifle.

[maqueswell]

I can tell you that you r going to upgrade the trigger cuz theirs sucks and the synthetic stock is the biggest piece of crap they ever made.

Berto255, please explain your reasons for this comment. I'm curious I own a Vanguard .308 with a synthetic stock and I have not seen any problems or defects. Thanks

[berto255]

Quote:
I can tell you that you r going to upgrade the trigger cuz theirs sucks and the synthetic stock is the biggest piece of crap they ever made.

Berto255, please explain your reasons for this comment. I'm curious I own a Vanguard .308 with a synthetic stock and I have not seen any problems or defects. Thanks


Break down your rifle. Take the action and barrel out of the stock. Your synthetic stock is plastic and not very rigid (not helpfull with fallow up shot or recoil). My synthetic stock was uneven along the top section. My trigger was very heavy and no one wants to work in it. Sometimes it makes it worst to try to fixed. Weatherby won't sell me a heavy barrel upgrade if I don't buy the action that comes with it for about 400 to 500 dollars. **** I'll buy another rifle for that much. The synthetic model are the low end rifles, they shot ok but a lilttle help doesn't hurt. New trigger, stock and bolt handle

[handlerer2]

No magic, just a superior crown and solid everything. I own a Vanguard in 300WBY and have had my gunsmith tell me that the crown work on these rifles is best he's ever seen, except on a custom rifle. There was an atricle in Guns and ammo commenting on this and why a Vanguard in 257WBY shoot much flatter than it was supposed to , turned out it was a virtually custom quality crown, on a $400 rifle. If I remember correctly the author said it was zero'd at 200yd, was 2" high at 300 and 3" low at 400 pretty flat that. I think a 257 WBY is next on my list for Santa. The rifle crown can have a distinct effect on ballistics. A superior crown will tend to stabilize the bullet sooner after leaving the muzzle, having less wobble, therefor less drag and superior ballistics.

[TXGunNut]

Zero'd @ 200, 2" high @ 300, 3" low @ 400? Either someone's pulling your leg or the laws of physics have been repealed.

[handlerer2]

Hey Tex, I didn't invent those numbers, I read them in an article in Guns and Ammo, by John Bansness, titled, "Odd is Good" dated 01/09. I was incorrect about the 400yd drop though, it was 4" not 3", oops. Read it, it was informative about his Vanguards ballistics. I had read this last year and thought it interesting enough to mention it to a gunsmith, who was not unfamiliar with the concept. The form and precision of the crown can have profound effects on ballistics. A bullet not on a precise spin wobbles, has more drag as a consequence, and so rops sooner. Makes sense to me, but then I'm not a gunsmith or a ballistics engineer.

[TXGunNut]

So, if a gunwriter says a bullet can "rise" between 200 and 300 yards who am I to argue? Silly me, I stand corrected. :rolleyes: I always thought that gravity acted on a bullet from the instant it leaves the muzzle and will be constantly dropping below the axis of that bore until it makes impact. It may seem to "rise" relative to the line of sight but that is another matter.
All kidding aside, handlerer2, lots of folks think bullets "rise". It simply doesn't work that way.

[csmsss]

Sorry, I'm simply not going to buy into the notion that a crown job is going to significantly raise MV - if that were the case, it'd show in EVERY accurate barrel and every accurate rifle would shoot to a higher MV than other rifles. And we know that simply isn't the case.

[TXGunNut]

The best crown job won't raise muzzle velocity but an uneven crown will cause a bullet to become unstable and lose velocity quicker downrange than a stable bullet launched from a barrel with an even crown. There are some pretty wild ideas about crown contours, some may even be right.

[csmsss]

TX, I'm still not buying it - that same instability would also result in terrible accuracy downrange.

[handlerer2]

I grasp the physics involved in bullet flight. The rise in a projectiles trajectory to due to the barrel sight alignment. I don't claim to know all of the permutations of all the variables, but trials and results are basis of formulation. A bullet that leaves the bore in a less than concentric spiral will be effected more by drag than a bullet with a truer concentric spiral. There have been long discussions/arguments on bullets going to sleep and having smaller groups at 200yd than at 100, this principle was observed by Krup ballisticians before WW1. It seems improbable, I know, I argued about this with a physics professor, who was a retired Colonel, and in possession of ballistics knowledge, I found enlightening. There is even gun camera footage illustrating this. Ever see the aerial footage from the Battle of Britain. There is a regularly shown clip of a Spitfire or Hurricane shooting down a ME110, the tracers clearly show a helical spiral in the first 100yd or so of the MG's trajectory. I don't think this phenomenon is in defiance of known physical laws at all, but is kind of hard to wrap your brain around, that all bullets don't exit all barrels perfectly.

[berto255]

I guess my thread got hijack. The post wasn't about ballistic it was about my rifle and peoples opinion on how it looked. :confused:

[TXGunNut]

The theories about concentric spirals are old news, as handlerer2 pointed out. BPCR shooters swear by it. The theory goes that the bullet eventually settles down so that the group size at 200 yds is smaller than @ 100 yds. I can accept that but I think the diameter of the spiral is smaller than some folks think.
My issue is with zeroing a rifle @ 200 yds and expecting the bullet to rise above the line of sight to 3" above the line of sight @ 300yds. I'm familiar with the concept of regulating a scope to hit 1-2" high @ 100 yds so that the bullets' path intersects with the line of sight somewhere around 200 yds but until we get the notion of rising bullets out of our minds ballistics will seem to be a bunch of silly mumbo-jumbo.

[KMG5402]

trajectory? hellooo

[handlerer2]

Sorry Berto about getting involved in sidetracking your thread, but the subject was introduced and I wanted to comment on it. Back to bullet rise. In the mentioned article, it was Ken Oehler that explained this phenomenon to the author. He calculated that the actual BC of the 100gr TTx was about .880 when it left the barrel, Barnes BC assignment to this bullet was .320. All bullets describe a parabolic arc, due to barrel sight alignment. A faster bullet will have a longer parabola and travel farther on the rise portion of its arc. This common knowledge to all long range target shooters who have to compensate for 500" of drop at 1000yd. They simply program for a steeper parabola, so their bullets are riseing far beyond 300yds.

[TXGunNut]

See what I mean about mumbo-jumbo? We need to get together over a cool drink and some ballistics tables, handlerer2. It'll be fun. We're confusing these good folks with our different terminology. Wish you wouldn't use all those 20 dollar words to explain how an object defies gravity. ;) I'm supposed to know what they mean, I just don't usually use them unless I want to confuse someone.
I'm sorry too, Berto. You have a fine rifle and I'd still like to know about that stock.

[crghss]

Nice setup berto255, looks sweet, can't wait for the range report.

Just out of curiosity why did you get a "new bolt from ShortActionCustom.com".

I'm looking to get a 22-250 Vanguard myself in a month or too so any information is good information.

Did you already have the mueller scope or did you purchase it for this setup?

[handlerer2]

Hey Tex , thanks for the invite, we could do a little shootin' first, then the 1st rounds on me.

[berto255]

...Not much on ID'ing stocks, who built the one you used to upgrade?
...I'm sorry too, Berto. You have a fine rifle and I'd still like to know about that stock.
Bell & Carlson Medalist™ Weatherby Style Stocks for Mark V, Vanguard & Remington 700 with Aluminum Bedding
http://www.stockysstocks.com/servlet/the-460/Bell-%26-Carlson-Medalist%E2%84%A2/Detail

[berto255]

Nice setup berto255, looks sweet, can't wait for the range report.

Just out of curiosity why did you get a "new bolt from ShortActionCustom.com".

I'm looking to get a 22-250 Vanguard myself in a month or too so any information is good information.

Did you already have the mueller scope or did you purchase it for this setup?

Range Time: (next Wednesday the 7th (100yrds) and Saturday the 10th (225yards)
Bolt from SAC: I called Keith with AZprecesion (very recommended guy) but he doesn't work on HOWA/WEATHERBY. Bolt handle steel to hard for his setup so the Keith gave me Mark Gordon phone #. I called Mark the 24th; I send my bolt the 25th. The bolt arrived in OH the 28th. He got it done the July 1st, and in the mail the 2nd. Hopefully I get it by Tuesday or Wednesday. For Keith to pass work to Mark it speaks a lot about the guy. So I trust a complete stranger and my bolt should be here in a couple of days. LOL
Scope: I got it for multipurpose. I was thinking about the long run and maybe heavier calibers in the future. Quick detach rings make that happen. I got it from Midwayusa. The scope is really bright at 100 yards with very low light. Holds zero very well as far as I can tell, next time I'll buy a 4 to 16 or 6 to 24 power. Nothing wrong with the scope is just too much for my everyday use at the range from 100 to 200 yards. I don't get to shot pass 200 yards very often or more like never. But you live and you learn.

[berto255]

.....Did you already have the mueller scope or did you purchase it for this setup? check my other thread

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415397

[tachunter]

I guess my thread got hijack. The post wasn't about ballistic it was about my rifle and peoples opinion on how it looked.

The rifle looks good, but doesn't appear to fit your application. From your scope I take it this is an LR rifle or tactical and yet your stock is a hunting rifle stock. Not a varmint or tactical stock. Am I missing something here?

[berto255]

The rifle looks good, but doesn't appear to fit your application. From your scope I take it this is an LR rifle or tactical and yet your stock is a hunting rifle stock. Not a varmint or tactical stock. Am I missing something here?

As far as you know what would be my application? Is not a tactical rifle and the scope is a target scope. I can't get a tactical stock because I don't have a heavy barrel and I don't want to be the dumb ass with 1/4" gap in each side of the barrel. That's the only stock that I can get from B&C that has spider web design and that fits my Weatherby.

[csmsss]

???? Why did you attribute that quote to me?

[tulsamal]

See what I mean about mumbo-jumbo? We need to get together over a cool drink and some ballistics tables, handlerer2. It'll be fun. We're confusing these good folks with our different terminology. Wish you wouldn't use all those 20 dollar words to explain how an object defies gravity.

OK, my "good judgement" tells me to stay out of this but I'll take a shot at explaining it. Whether the exact numbers given actually "compute" will be a matter for further study.

When you fire a rifle, the bullet crosses the line of sight twice. If the bore was perfectly aligned with the scope, it wouldn't cross at all. It would start out the height of the scope below the aiming line and drop from there. So the barrel has to aim "up" a bit. (There's that parabolic arc.) So a "zero" can actually be either one of those crossing points and I've seen people have all kinds of weird problems when they didn't realize that. The closer you make the first crossing point, the higher the bullet will get fired. (Steeper angle.) Now I've never tried to move that first crossing point all the way out to 200 yards but then I don't think I own a rifle with a velocity high enough to make that practical. But I don't see a reason it couldn't be done. (With most "normal" type deer rifles, that first crossing point will be somewhere between 25 and 100 yards.)

So the rifle is "zeroed" at 200 yards if by that you mean the POA is the same as the POI. But the bullet is actually still going up at that point. (It will be low at all ranges before that.) So it continues going up for some xx amount of distance and then finally starts to go down. At some point it will cross the line of sight again. That may be 300-400 yards depending on the trajectory. (Most of us would consider that to be the actual "zero range." That's the way most ballistics tables are done.)

I think the confusion is over the word zero in relation to the two times the bullet crosses the line of aim. If you see "zero" and define that in your mind as the second crossing point, then you are right, it is all "down" from there. But if that 200 yard target is at the first crossing point, then yes, the bullet can continue to "go up" past that point.

Gregg

[berto255]

Sorry :rolleyes: wrong user
???? Why did you attribute that quote to me?

Right user this time :D
.... Am I missing something here?

As far as you know what would be my application? Is not a tactical rifle and the scope is a target scope. I can't get a tactical stock because I don't have a heavy barrel and I don't want to be the dumb ass with 1/4" gap in each side of the barrel. That's the only stock that I can get from B&C that has spider web design and that fits my Weatherby.

[tachunter]

As far as you know what would be my application? Is not a tactical rifle and the scope is a target scope. I can't get a tactical stock because I don't have a heavy barrel and I don't want to be the dumb ass with 1/4" gap in each side of the barrel. That's the only stock that I can get from B&C that has spider web design and that fits my Weatherby.

I guess I would be the dumb ass then until I purchased a new barrel. Or I would get that stock and purchase a different scope. Either way somethings gotta give.

Again another reason to purchase R700's over any other action. Aftermarket availability. The SPS's are cheap too.

What is the application anyways?

[berto255]

I guess I would be the dumb ass then until I purchased a new barrel. Or I would get that stock and purchase a different scope. Either way somethings gotta give.

Again another reason to purchase R700's over any other action. Aftermarket availability. The SPS's are cheap too.

What is the application anyways?

Well I try to get a new barrel from Weatherby but they claim that there isn't an upgrade (heavy barrel) for the vanguard model. When I got this rifle I wasn't planing to make to many modification to it. I knew I wanted a new stock & decent scope but I really don't want to spend another $400 or $500 dollars on a barrel. I'm trying to save my extra $ for a 700 project.