Help me with these old Colts

[Hardcase]

If you'd like to read an interesting story, stay tuned to the end.

My dad gave me a couple of old revolvers today. They belonged to my great grandfather, who picked them up in some horse trading that he did during the Great Depression. One of them is definitely a Police Positive Target model in .22 WRF. I'm just not sure about the other one. Maybe a sharp-eyed Colt expert can help me out. Here are some pictures:

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_1.jpg

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_2.jpg

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_3.jpg

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_4.jpg

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_5.jpg

http://www.fluidlight.com/Guns/colt_revolvers_6.jpg

The patent dates on the .38 revolver has patent dates of Aug. 5, 1884, November 6, 88, March 5, 94.

On the .22, it's August 5, 1884, June 5, 1900 and July 4, 1905.

There's tape around the .22 because the grips are cracked.

Now the story: My great great grandfather, besides being a plumber, also worked at a gas station in Jamestown, ND back in the early '30s. A couple of guys came through, heading west, to get some gas, but didn't have any money. My great great grandfather said that he'd pay for a tank of gas and they could send him the money when they got home to Cascade, MT. One of the guys gave him the .22 and told him to hold it as collateral - when he got the money, he could send it back. Well, they never sent the money, so he kept the gun.

It originally had white tape wrapped around the grips - wrapped very carefully and deliberately. I remember seeing the tape when I was a kid. Whoever put it on the gun was really careful about lining up the overlap just perfectly...it was a budget fix, but done with great care.

So, now there's no white tape, as you can see. That's the second part of the story. When my folks sold their house and moved into a condo a few years ago, they lost track of the guns. They searched high and low, but finally figured that they were lost. Then, about a week ago, my dad came across the lady who had purchased the house and asked if she'd seen a couple of pistols there. She said that she hadn't, but that she'd keep her eyes open.

On Tuesday, she called my dad and said that she'd just found them in the back of a linen closet. So, dad hot-footed it over and picked up the guns. Back home, he pulled the .22 out of the holster and noticed that the white tape was gone and this odd masking tape was there. Now, I don't want to cast aspersions, but somehow I think that the old "I just found your pistols" story might have a little more detail to it than the lady was letting on.

However, we've got them back, dad's given them to me and all is well, so it's best to let sleeping dogs lie. But it's an interesting story.

Anyway, I'd welcome any comments and info that you all might have for me.

[Rampant_Colt]

It appears to be a Colt 1895 New Army .38 Long Colt

http://www.cabelas.com/gun-inventory---glendale---colt---1363559-colt1895na38lc.shtml

cool guns!

[Scorch]

The 38 appears to be a Model 1896 or Model 1901 Colt Army revolver (serial numbers would tell for sure). It is most likely chambered for 38 Colt cartridges, not 38 Special. Value is somewhere around $500 for the revolver, but the grips alone would be worth almost that much in the condition they are in, if they were originals.

FWIW, a set of reproductions of the Police Positive grips can be had here
http://vintagegungrips.net/ao-c4.html

[Hardcase]

Thanks Rampant_Colt and Scorch.

I don't think that the grips are original to the gun - if you look at the base of the butt, the grips don't cover all of the metal. Also, the serial number written on the inside of the grips is in the 400K range, which is too high, I think.

I can't find a serial number on the gun. I don't see any evidence that one has been scratched off, but after at least 80 years, who knows. Where is it supposed to be?

[Scorch]

The serial number, along with the model designation, was on the butt of the pistol grip. Probably polished off years ago. Also check inside the crane cutout.

[James K]

The .38 is the military model ("R.A.C." marked) but with civilian grips. The military contract specified a longer bottom strap that Colt didn't think would be acceptable to civilians, so they changed it on the civilian prduction. The Model number and serial number should be on the butt.

The number inside the crane is an assembly number.

The .22 is a Police Positive Target, probably dating from the 1920's.

Serial numbers would let us date the guns more closely.

Probably unnecessary, but a word of caution. Some of those old .38 revolvers will chamber .38 Special and even .357 Magnum. Standard .38 Special would probably be OK, but .38 Special +P or +P+ is a no-no, as is .357.

Jim

[aarondhgraham]

Sweeeeeet!

.

[Hardcase]

Whoops, I thought that I posted the serial for the Police Positive, but clearly I'm a victim of CRS. It's 14291, as stamped on the frame and crane.

The other gun's serial, unfortunately, is lost to history. Under better light, I can see that it was on the butt of the gun, but somebody definitely went after it with a grinder, then did a nice job of smoothing the metal. The finish isn't worn down there - it's just flat gone. It's OK - it's the family history that counts way more than anything.

Excellent point, Jim. I do know that it's a .38LC gun, but I never turn down good advice! I picked up a couple of boxes of .38LC from the local shop that handles cowboy action goodies, so I'll be taking it out to the woods this weekend to shoot a bit. Both the timing and the lockup are great, so I think that it will be a fun time.

The Police Positive is going to be a little tougher - I've been told that the CCI .22WRF ammo is a no-go for revolvers because of the copper jacket, so I'm watching a few GB auctions of Winchester ammo. That stuff is a little pricey compared to .22LR!

[James K]

The PP serials are confusing as they ran different calibers in different series. As far as I can determine, a PP Target .22 WRF # 14291 was made in 1915, which seems to be in the ballpark with what you were told.

I thought I would mention that cartridge business because while I was checking a couple of those guns before responding, I happened to pick up a .357 round and decided to see if it would fit. It didn't in one gun, nor did a .38 Special. But in the other, both fit. The .357 bullet tip came just to the end of the cylinder, but it let the cylinder turn and would have fired, with results unknown because I sure don't plan to do it.

Jim

[Hardcase]

I thought I would mention that cartridge business because while I was checking a couple of those guns before responding, I happened to pick up a .357 round and decided to see if it would fit. It didn't in one gun, nor did a .38 Special. But in the other, both fit. The .357 bullet tip came just to the end of the cylinder, but it let the cylinder turn and would have fired, with results unknown because I sure don't plan to do it.

They both fit in mine, too. It's a little scary, because my grandfather was a little bit notorious for putting whatever cartridge would fit the chamber into a gun.

My dad tells me that one day he loaded up great great grandpa's 1862 Springfield rifle with a "bunch" of powder and some birdshot, just to see if it worked. Fortunately, nothing was ruined and he put the gun back in the closet. With a .58 minie ball and 60 grains of BP, though, it's a very fine instrument!

[Aguila Blanca]

The other gun's serial, unfortunately, is lost to history. Under better light, I can see that it was on the butt of the gun, but somebody definitely went after it with a grinder, then did a nice job of smoothing the metal. The finish isn't worn down there - it's just flat gone. It's OK - it's the family history that counts way more than anything.
Don't mean to be a killjoy, but you NEED to know this: Possession of a firearm on which the serial number has been removed, altered or defaced is a Federal felony, and in many states a state felony as well. It was common practice for returning GIs to "scrub" military weapons they "forgot" to turn in when they were released from duty. Unfortunately, that doesn't help you, because the wording of the law specifically provides that the person in whose possession the firearm is found is legally presumed to be the person who altered the serial number.

The good news is that the BATFE (in a rare display of sanity) is aware that such guns are out there, and most field offices will cooperate in either recovering and re-engraving the original number, or simply assigning a new number and having it engraved. I would strongly advise you to contact your local BATFE field office. If you aren't comfortable trying to predict how they might react (and I would not be), have an attorney make the initial contact so that your identity is protected until it has been established that your field office is on board with the program.

[M4Sherman]

If I remember right as long as it was gone before it was required it is grandfathered in...

[gyvel]

If I remember right as long as it was gone before it was required it is grandfathered in...

Unfortunately, no.

[csmsss]

If I remember right as long as it was gone before it was required it is grandfathered in... No, that only applies to manufacturers. If the serial number was originally stamped on a firearm at the time of manufacture, it's quite illegal to alter or in any other way deface it, or even to possess it. The above advice to get hold of an attorney is quite sound.

[Hardcase]

I think that this is the relevant portion of the Federal law that's being referred to:

USC 18, 922:

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport,
ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm
which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number
removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any
firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial
number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been
shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

However, USC 18, 921 (the definitions for Chapter 44) says:

(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.

It strikes me, then that an antique firearm is not the same "firearm" as the subject of section 922. And my 1894 revolver is an antique. In fact, reading through Chapter 44, there appear to be great pains made to differentiate between "firearms" and "antique firearms".

EDIT:

I may have been all to clever in my thinking, to wit: telling the difference between an 1894 and 1896 New Army is not trivial and may be impossible in my case. And 1896 models were manufactured until 1901.

I did check Idaho laws regarding firearms and serial numbers. There is no specific law regarding serial numbers on firearms, however, there is a general law that essentially says that if you remove a serial number from an item with the intent to deceive or defraud others you're guilty of a felony. Now, I didn't remove it and I have no intent to deceive or defraud anyone, so I think that I'm safe there.

Anyway, I'm going to call the State Police on Monday and talk to them about it. Depending upon what they say, I may also call the ATF. I'll post what I find out.

[Hardcase]

I had a really nice conversation with an ATF special agent this morning. Now, I don't know what these guys are like in other parts of the country, but here in my neck of the woods, they're very friendly and, in this case, very helpful.

We looked the gun over carefully and it was his opinion that he could not tell if the gun had ever been serialized. I pointed out the butt of the gun and said that that was where the serial number would be. He said that he could not see any evidence that a serial number had been removed.

He said that since he can see no evidence that a number has been removed, the Bureau's take would be that it had never been serialized. I know that I said earlier that the number had been ground off and then the metal smoothed, but the special agent pointed out that there would have been enough metal removed to alter the fit of the grips and to change the profile of the butt, but he did not see that. So I guess I was wrong about the grinding and filing.

I have to say that he was a really nice guy and seemed really enthused that we'd managed to keep old guns like this in the family. He honestly seemed like the kind of guy that would be a kick to be out at the range with.

I know that more than one person will be aghast that I actually showed the gun to the ATF, but I wouldn't have done it if I didn't have a virtually certain belief that either the law or common sense would be on my side. Maybe it was just dumb luck, but I don't think so - I've talked to several ATF agents before and all of them were reasonable guys. I don't doubt that there are some real, well, hard cases out there, but I have not seen any around here.

Anyway, thank you guys for bringing the subject up. It was well worth discussing and looking into. And, just to be sure that there's no confusion, what the special agent said applies only to my revolver.

[James K]

I hope things are OK, now, but I have to say the response is one agent's opinion. Remember, ATF was once part of the IRS and they work the same way. One IRS agent can tell you that you don''t owe any taxes, and the next one will arrest you for not paying the taxes the first agent said you didn't owe. The IRS income tax hotline says specifically that they are not bound by anything they tell you!

A general note on dealing with ATF. If you have a specific question, write the HQ and get a reply in writing. Even a field office written response is not binding on any other office.

Jim