How Popular Would a Single-Source 1911 Be Today?

[ScottRiqui]

Would the 1911 still enjoy the popularity it has today if the design weren't in the "public domain" (I don't know if that's the correct term for firearm designs).

There are a bunch of companies making different varieties of the 1911 today, from micro-compacts to long-slides, in a variety of different finishes, calibers, options, and other incremental changes to the original design.

What if instead, after the wartime production ended, the only 1911s available were made by Colt? No Springfields, no Les Bauers, no Dan Wessons. Would we still see Colt-branded 1911s on the cover of gun mags every other month? Would they still be as popular in competition? Would there still be as much variety, or would Colt have simply produced two or three models year after year?

The situation reminds me of when IBM started allowing other manufacturers to produce PC-compatible clones. The market share for PC compatibles shot way up compared to other platforms, consumers had a wide variety of choice all over the price spectrum, and a huge third-party parts & accessories industry sprang up.

[riggins_83]

Hard to say what would Colt would have gone if they'd remained the only producer. Would they have made very accurate target guns? Only GI style guns? Alloy frame guns lighter for concealed carry?

[Frank Ettin]

Hard to say. For me, the 1911 design has a lot to recommend it. It offers a pretty powerful cartridge in a relatively slim package that's fairly easy to carry concealed and is also quite manageable for someone like me with small hands and a short trigger reach. And I don't think I'm alone.

So what it comes down to is that the 1911 is, to many people, a very good design; and it will stand on its own merits whether made by one company or many. And even if it were made only by Colt for the commercial market, I'd expect Colt to find reason to produce variations like the Commander and Officers ACP, as it indeed did. I'd also expect gunsmiths would in any case be doing custom variations.

After all, Colt did come out with the Commander, Combat Commander and Officers ACP before a lot of other manufacturers got into the act (at least in the case of the Commander and Combat Commander). And gunsmiths like Armand Swenson and Jim Hoag were customizing Colts before there were other makers on the scene. Jim Hoag used to make long slide Colt 1911s and BHPs.

The cottage industry of 1911 custom gunsmithing (and from there the niche manufacturers) grew up because the Colt 1911s were popular for competition and because the 1911 design was well liked for a variety of applications. In other words, it wasn't the plethora of makers and gunsmiths that made the 1911 popular. It was the other way around.

[Auto426]

One of the true testaments to the 1911's success is the fact that it is so widely copied. It's hard to say what it would be like today if Colt was still the only one in the game, as that would likely mean that the 1911 hadn't caught on like it did.

For a very long time Colt was the only producer of 1911's, up until around the 1980's Colt was pretty much the only serious manufacturer in the 1911 game. I think many people don't realize just how innovative Colt actually was with the platform, and how much of this innovation came when Colt had no competition. Colt is responsible for a great deal of the modifications and improvements that are associated with most other companies product offerings.

Colt was the first to create 1911's built for target shooting when they introduced the National Match in 1932. They were the first to offer alternate chamberings for the gun, with the .38 Super in the 1920's, the 9mm Commanders (I think started in the 50's), and the 10mm Delta Elites back in the 80's. They were the first to offer different length 1911's, like the Commander models, the Officer's models, and I believe they were also the first to offer a CCO size gun (a Commander slide on an Officer's frame). They were the first the offer lightweight, aluminum framed 1911's, as the original Commanders used aluminum frames while the Combat Commanders had steel frames.

If Colt was the only manufacturer of 1911's today, we probably wouldn't be referring to them as 1911's. We would probably be calling them Government Models, as that is Colt's proper name for their 1911's. Their products would also probably look similar to what they look like now. After all, Colt was responsible for a good deal of the changes the the standard G.I. setup most people desire today. Most of the others changes came from private sector gunsmiths, not competing companies.

The 1911 would also likely have a much better reputation than it does today, as the guns would be coming from a single manufacturer, and would likely be built to original JMB certified specs. The biggest problem today is that everyone who is making a 1911 wants to change the specs, usually to tighten up a design that really does not need to be tightened up.

Would they be as popular as they are today? Maybe, maybe not. People buy 1911's because they like the design, not the manufacturer. They buy 1911's because of how they shoot, their sweet single action trigger, how they feel in the shooter's hand, and the level of tuning and modification that can be done to one. It's likely that they would still be popular, maybe not on the same scale as they are today though, and I'm sure that the design wouldn't have died out.

[BlueTrain]

Sort of a chicken or the egg kind of question. I'd have to say that if the Government Model weren't popular, then you wouldn't have so many other manufacturers offering their copies. There's a lot more to it than that, of course, but I think that much is true. There was also licensed manufacturing in other countries of the Government Model before WWII, too, you know. But it is also probably true that people may have been more interested in revolvers over automatics until relatively recently, too, though the Colt Government Model was the gun for competitive target shooting in spite of .45 ACP revolvers from S&W being introduced.

Beware of imitations and patent infringements.

[g.willikers]

Back in the seventies and eighties, folks who took their shooting serious-like owned S&W revolvers and Colt revolvers and 1911s.
The popularity of the other makes and styles didn't really take off until the concealed licenses arrived, the US military switched over to the Beretta, and match rules changes, allowing additional gun divisions, separating the 1911 shooters from the other designs.
If only Colt had the rights to making the 1911, things probably would have remained the same.
1911 supporters and enthusiasts would all be shooting Colts and the other makes and designs would be as they are now.
That's my take, anyhow.

[BlueTrain]

Well, actually there were already a host of automatics already in the 1960s from other manufacturers and in all sorts of styles, some of which are still around, other long forgotten. There were of course different Brownings, including the Hi-Power, which curiously has spawned only a couple of copies, Walthers, and all manner of guns from Spain and Italy. Beretta was offering several, big ones and little ones. There were imported revolvers but they never really caught on in the same way. Llamas, Stars and Astras are all history but most of the rest are still selling. Lots more were in the future.

If you go back a couple of decades the picture changes but there were more revolvers and again, many names that were once common are now all but forgotten. Same thing if you go back even another 20 or 30 years. What do you suppose will be gone ten or twenty years from now?

[Sevens]

I think there might be two vastly different questions here.

1) Would the 1911 be as popular if only one company made it?
2) Would the 1911 be as popular if only Colt made it?

Colt has proven time and time again that they drop the ball. Even with products as heralded and loved and placed on a pedestal, they drop the ball.

If only Colt built the 1911, they might be fine pistols, they might be highly sought after and they might still splash magazine covers. But no way would Colt make enough of them to fill the current market. They'd find a way to foul it up. They'd either try to make as many as are in demand, and the quality would suffer. Or they would ramp up the price to the point where demand would taper off.

I look at all of Colt's history in the last 50-70 years as the motivator for these opinions. The Single Action Army, the Ace, the Woodsman, Cobra, the Python, the Mustang -- where are these handguns, and why?

Some other company? I think you could name a half dozen 1911 builders that could attempt to carry the 1911 industry by themselves better than Colt would manage to do.

Bottom line basic answer to the basic question... no -- no way the 1911 sees the same level of popularity if it wasn't being made by a dozen-plus different manufacturers. But even less so if it was only Colt that made them.

[Sturmgewehre]

It would still be popular most likely and Colt probably wouldn't have gone in and out of bankruptcy so many times. :)

I doubt Colt would have stepped up to offer semi-custom offerings without competition. If it weren't for competition, we would probably have the same old bland offering of barely modified 1911's being sold by them. There would still be a huge demand for custom services by gunsmiths.

That's just a guess though. :) But competition did the 1911 good. I give Kimber credit for upping the ante with their early Clackamus pistols that really put other 1911 makers on notice.

Once Colt and others noticed the popularity of affordable semi-custom 1911's in the market place, EVERYONE jumped in on the game. Before that when Colt was the primary maker, the models were pretty static and rather bland... let's not mention Colt's spiral downward in quality which produced some really bad examples of 1911's in the early 1980's. Thankfully they've recovered and now make a great 1911 again.

[madmag]

I own a 1966 Colt full size 1911. It is good quality and was made when Colt was still making 1911's under government contract.

But the problem is that, at least for a while, colt let their own quality slide down hill. I doubt that many of the Colt pistols made after the government contact ended would have met military inspections.

Single source? A single source of anything that's good quality can work, but the Colt name will only carry you so far.

[azredhawk44]

The one thing left out of this discussion is the 1994-2004 Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

When you can only have a gun with 10 rounds maximum, a few things start to happen to drive the market:
- Guns get smaller
- Calibers get bigger
- Technological innovation is hampered, and older designs like the 1911 are more attractive to gun manufacturers.

The 1911 surged in the 90's and early 21st century. Some places still have AWB's and the 1911 does strong in those markets. It's a classy gun that is not hamstrung or neutered by some stupid law.

As a result, an un-neutered 1911 with 8rds is more attractive to many than a neutered Glock 21 or S&W M&P .45.

I think that the compact/CCW market and the 1911 cottage industry kept the gun market afloat during the dark years of the Federal AWB.

[RickB]

In the late '70s and early '80s, Colt wasn't in the best financial shape (insert just about any post-war decade, really), the government was planning to replace the M1911A1 as its service pistol, and it was believed at that time that the "1911" (a term that wasn't around until the 1990s) might disappear as a production gun. It's hard to believe today, when you look at the popularity of the gun, but it was on its last leg, thirty years ago. Anyone interested in the rise of the "wondernine", development of the 10mm and .40 S&W cartridges, etc., check out Bren Ten: The Heir Apparent . It's a fascinating read.

[BlueTrain]

Sometimes companies like Colt are in a kind of a dilemma when it comes to their products, no matter what their quality is like at any given moment. They make practically the same products they've made for decades partly because they can sell them and their customers resist innovation in their products. Would you buy a Single Action Army with a floating firing pin? Maybe you would but there's plenty of people who have put S&W on notice that they don't like the changes they've made to their revolvers, though it hasn't stopped them (S&W) from going gangbusters on both new revolver variations and new automatics. The same thing has affects to one degree or another manufacturers of other "traditional" products, be it lever action rifles, bolt action rifles or Morgan cars.

None of that answers the questions about why they don't make this or that and Colt certainly made a huge variety of things over the years, including some excellent variations on a theme more recently. Most likely we don't appreciate what certain things cost and even more so, just how much of a market there might be for a given product. There is a certain amount of irony in the way certain firearms, like Kimber, for example, sell for a good price, and people grumble about the price of a Colt. Or am I out of touch with prices?

Or do we all wish it were 1940 again?

[THORN74]

Would the 1911 still enjoy the popularity it has today if the design weren't in the "public domain" (I don't know if that's the correct term for firearm designs).

There are a bunch of companies making different varieties of the 1911 today, from micro-compacts to long-slides, in a variety of different finishes, calibers, options, and other incremental changes to the original design.

What if instead, after the wartime production ended, the only 1911s available were made by Colt? No Springfields, no Les Bauers, no Dan Wessons. Would we still see Colt-branded 1911s on the cover of gun mags every other month? Would they still be as popular in competition? Would there still be as much variety, or would Colt have simply produced two or three models year after year?

The situation reminds me of when IBM started allowing other manufacturers to produce PC-compatible clones. The market share for PC compatibles shot way up compared to other platforms, consumers had a wide variety of choice all over the price spectrum, and a huge third-party parts & accessories industry sprang up.

I see where ur going , but im sorry to say ur question is flawed. WW2 is what made the 1911 what is is today and by that time is was already a 30 year old design. A patent only protects the design for 17 years, therefore all 1911 boutique makers (dan wesson, les bear, ed brown, nighthawk custom, etc) would still be around, just like today.

And reguarding computers, IBM didnt allow anyone anything. its the same situation, patents expire for the sole purpose of promoting compitition.

[44 AMP]

What if instead, after the wartime production ended, the only 1911s available were made by Colt?

After wartime production ended, the only 1911s available WERE made by Colt!

If, you could somehow (make a law????) that only Colt could make 1911s and sell to the public, then no, it wouldn't be as widespread popular as it is now. But it would still be very popular.

Colt was the only maker of new Government Models after the war, but they didn't sell a lot of them for many years, because the market was pretty saturated with surplus GI pistols, which was importent to the low budget buyer, and to Colt's pocketbook.

Colt made a number of truly disasterous marketing decisions through the years, just some of which were to fail to keep up with the changing tastes of the market, often less than competitive pricing, and a big one, letting the civilian handgun division slide whil concentrating on military sales (M16).

Custom smiths began "chopping and channeling" 1911 to make compact carry guns almost as soon as they began setting up shops after the war. And making match guns as well. But it wasn't till the 60s that the rise of action shooting (creating PPC and IPSC matches) began, as opposed to traditional bullseye shooting, created a demand for more 1911s in a broader market.

By the 70s (assuming the only thing different from history is Colt being the only 1911 maker), with the start of the change in public attitude about auto pistols (Illinois police adopted the S&W M39 in 9mm in the 70s) Demand for autos is going up. If Colt doesn't fill the void, someone else will. Foreign guns like the Sig, and by the 80s Berretta and GLock, and the wondernines will rule, just as they did in real history.

The 1911 design will have a strong following among all big bore avodcates, but it wouldn't be dominating the economic pistol market anything like today.

I grew up in a time when the only .45 auto was the Colt (or at least the only one worth considering. LLama:barf:), and the 9mm was the Hi Power, S&W, P-38, or the Luger! (ok, star, astra, llama..etc., but serious shooters didn't buy them;)) And factory ammo was either FMJ or LRN, with a few swc match loads. Things really have changed.

So, IF Colt was the only maker of 1911s, then no, it wouldn't be like it is today, because the availability (and low end price) of 1911s from other makers helped create the demand as well. And, I agree the 1994 AWB and its ban on more than 10rnds gave a big boost back to sales of the 1911, and stomped on the wondernines pretty hard, which is why their makers brought out models in larger calibers, and made chopped versions of them all.

One reason the 1911 design (from somebody) is on the magazine covers so often is that its popularity means there is so many different versions to choose from. And, after all, you do need something eye catching (and preferably new) for that cover, every month!

[BlueTrain]

I always thought it was Jeff Cooper that made the 1911 what it is today!