Sight suggestions for a 870 with rails

[Zentanker]

Hello everyone, in hopes of not being a completely annoying noob, I've searched and haven't quite found the answer that works for my situation- if this has been done to death already I apologize.

I have a 870 Express Magnum with most of the goodies you could want on it, except some sights.


Knoxx specops stock, surefire forearm, and Mesa sidesaddle with rails. etc/

This is it on the left, obviously:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ds0Hao6kADU/TAaKoIJ8tnI/AAAAAAAAADA/aII6kQy3X9E/s720/2010-06-02%2011.43.36.jpg


For those not especially familiar with the Mesa sidesaddle/rail setup, it looks like this:

http://www.mesatactical.com/images/111.jpg

It sits above the receiver enough that you can sight through the opening under it to see the front bead.


So what exactly are my best options? I honestly first considered getting a reflex holo sight (I love my EOtech on my M4) but I think that's a little overkill for a shotgun like this. Plus, sights break, batteries go dead, etc. so now I'm leaning MUCH more heavily toward getting some ghost rings.


1. Is mounting a ghost ring on the picatinny rail a good idea? I don't seem to see that done very often.
2. Are there any sights that are low profile enough that they can be used and sighted UNDER the mesa rails? There's maybe about a 1/4 inch of opening under those rails to sight through, so that isn't much room to play with.
3. Should I look for some sights with a field of view that sights over the the rails?
4. Or should I just go play in traffic and leave you guys alone? :p


All I'm looking for is a reasonably affordable, durable sight system that will help me hit a zombie with a slug at ranges a bit outside of buckshot range. Shouldn't be too difficult, right? ;)

I appreciate any suggestions or ideas.

[zippy13]

Greetings Zentanker and welcome aboard,

Typically, if shooting slugs and looking for accuracy the set-up of choice is a rifled barrel, with a cantilever scope base, and sabot-type slugs. But, you've already crossed anopther bridge with you choice of gun and the Mesa saddle.

Since you rig is atypical, you selection of sights is pretty much up in the air. I'm a clay target shooter and my shotgun sight of choice is a standard front and mid rib bead, but you have a smooth barrel. If you can get a good look at your existing bead under the rail why change -- use the bead for close range pointing. With your saddle mounted rail, it may be difficult to find a ghost ring set up that will have the front sight high enough. You might have to go with an AR-style front sight to get the height needed. It wouldn't be my choice, but it would definitely contribute to the tacti-cool look. If you stay with the standard bead, the rail could be used for a simple red dot or…

Since you anticipate ranges beyond buckshot, I presume you're assuming daylight conditions for target acquisition (using your light for that kind of range requires a degree of illumination that would make you very conspicuous) perhaps a standard optical sight would give you greater accuracy than a glow dot device. The decision is yours, there is no right or wrong selection.

[Lee Lapin]

IMHO it's pretty much a silk purse/sow's ear dilemma. You have a carbine already- use the carbine as a carbine, and don't try to turn the shotgun into one.

Use the shotgun for what it has evolved over the past several hundred years to do- reliably hit fleeting targets quickly and efficiently. Elaborate sighting systems tend to get in the way of that, and slow down the process.

Ever hear the acronym KISS? It was written with shotguns in mind...

JMHO, YMMV-

lpl

[Zentanker]

Thanks for the responses guys. :)


Zippy13 and Lee Lapin- I am guilty as charged, I am one of those guys that loves "tacti-cool" stuff. I won't lie, I do. It's fun to shoot for me. As a side note, I have been in the military for over 20 years, so I'm not just some nutter in his mom's basement plotting the conquest of the world or anything. I'm pretty normal. Talking to me won't get you on a no-fly list or anything. ;)

I'm not trying to turn this 870 into a carbine, I just think it would be fun and possibly useful to make it not only a short range weapon, but one that with just a change of ammo can deliver 440 grains of ouch at around 100yds. Of course I have a carbine, but if I have my shotgun already in my hand, running for the M4 wouldn't really make sense if I have the ability to plant a 1 oz slug where it needs to be with the right sights... would it?


That being said, I'm currently looking at this combo:


LPA BAR11W on the mesa rail


http://www.lpasights.com/immagininuove/bar11w.jpg



With a LPA SG6 front sight


http://www.lpasights.com/immagininuove/SG6.jpg

http://www.lpasights.com/catalog-shotgun.html


Again, I appreciate the responses and look forward to talking more with you guys. :)

[zippy13]

I'm currently looking at this combo:
LPA BAR11W on the mesa rail
You're back to my original comment on height: The LPA examples show a rear sight on a directly mounted receiver rail. Your rail is elevated by the saddle mount, so you'll need to elevate the front sight the same amount.

Here's a thought: swap the saddle mount for a standard shell holder and install a receiver mounted rail. Use the forward rail screw(s) to pin the barrel tang for added accuracy -- pragmatic tacti-cool.

[Zentanker]

Valid comments and concerns.

I am hoping that the adjustability of both the rear and front sight's elevation will be able to account for the elevated rails.


Even if they cannot totally account for that, would that really keep me from being able to hit a dinner-plate sized target from 0-100 yards? Remember, I'm not looking to drive tacks with this. ;)

[zippy13]

Who knows, with the added elevation, you might be right on at 100-yds. If your minimum sight elevation is a little too high, you can always and use a 6 o'clock aim point. If that still doesn't work, then you can think about mounting the rail to the receiver.

[Zentanker]

This is becoming not just an effort to hit things with a slug, but also an exercise in ballistics as it pertains to the use of different sights.


Lots of knowledge here. I thank you all for the input.

[Lee Lapin]

being able to hit a dinner-plate sized target from 0-100 yards?

A good many shotguns, and a good many shotgunners, can do that with much simpler sight setups. Granted, I like ghost rings on working shotguns- I mourn the day MMC stopped making their offering- but the factory rifle sights on many 18.5- 20" Remington barrels are capable good hits out to the effective range of a slug. Believe it or not, there actually are people who can hit with slugs using simple bead sights, too, though at extended ranges sights do make getting good hits easier for many shooters.

Did you try shooting your shotgun with slugs before you started adding stuff to it? If so, how did it go?

The problem with jacking the line of sight on a shotgun up, up, up is that you will need to raise the comb of the stock up, up, up as well, to manage a cheek weld. Otherwise you will be shooting with a 'floating face' and that is not conducive to comfort or accuracy as a general rule.

fwiw,

lpl

[JNewell]

The FN SLP mounts an LPA rear on a rail and it works with an LPA front sight. I don't know whether your rail is higher, though. Either way, as you know, you're going to need a new, elevated front sight.

The LPA sights are worth the trouble, if you can swing it.

[Dave McC]

FWIW, one 870 here does less than three inches at 50 yards from the bench with just a bead. That's better than minute of pie plate at 100 yards.

Dunno about the other slug shooters here. They've GRs....

[Zentanker]

I absolutely have no doubt that there are quite a many more experienced and skilled shotgunners here than I. To be perfectly honest, almost all of my shotgun experience has been with military-style short-range breach and entry guns. Mostly A Mossberg 500 Persuader w/pistol grip and 20" cylinder bore barrel. Not exactly a tool that will give me confidence in my ability to place a slug... though I certainly do not doubt that many of you can shoot very nice groups with slugs with far simpler sights than what I'm looking at now. :o


I am fairly competent with pistols and rifles, and now I'm just looking to give myself a bit of an edge with shotguns. I'm not looking to win any competitions for small groups at 100 yds, for the most part I just think being able to blow up a water jug with a slug at that range will be a ton of fun.


...and you know, if the zombies attack, that will be enough precision to protect my mountain fortress, too. ;)

[zippy13]

As Lee Lapin mentioned: With the elevated sights, there's a chance you'll be coming off the stock to align the sights. Lee's "comfort" remark may have been understated. A "floating face" may result in a cheek mouse, especially if you're shooting heavy slug loads. Getting smacked in the face takes the fun outta shooting.

[Zentanker]

I don't think I'm going to have the cheek problem here. Remember this is a Knoxx Specops stock... they claim up to 95% felt reduction in recoil, but whatever the actual number is, the internal recoil springs do work quite well.

http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-1158-IMG2.jpeg


There are even a couple videos on youtube of very small women (5'4" 120lbs maybe?) shooting rings on 870 with a Knoxx stock and NO CHEEK WELD at all. Her little frame gets pushed around a little, but she doesn't get hit in the face at all.

Of course, if once I get this set up, and I do end up with a black eye or an imprint of a ghostring on my cheek, I'll be sure to take a pic for you guys' enjoyment. ;)

[Lee Lapin]

Zen,

I bough one of the Knoxx stocks when they first came out, to give it a try. I didn't like it, and my wife hated it outright. I found the stock tube too fat for me to get an appropriate head position behind the sights, and my wife had a laundry list of reasons why she didn't like it, most of which started with "It doesn't feel right because... ." Of course, both of us are old pharts and have been shooting conventionally stocked shotguns all our shooting careers.

I would suggest taking everything off the gun except the SureFire, putting on a wood stock (with stock bearing plate) that had been cut to give you a 13" or shorter LOP (length of pull) with a premium recoil pad in place, and running some courses of fire with it in that configuration. Even if you already satisfied yourself that you didn't like the factory stock, a shorter LOP stock and a good recoil pad might change your mind in that regard. Most factory stocks are too long for 'working' shotguns, and are improved by being shortened an inch or so and having a good recoil pad attached.

I'm 6'3" and wear a 37" sleeve, and still comfortably shoot the 12.5" LOP guns that fit my wife. In fact I have come to prefer them to a longer stock. It's usually good to make it a habit of resting the shooting hand thumb over on the trigger finger knuckle when shooting short stocked shotguns, though. That way recoil won't bash your thumb into your nose. Running a shotgun from a 'crunch' position seems much easier to me with a shorter stock.

Of course, ymmv...

lpl

[Zentanker]

Hi Lee!


I've heard mostly good things about the Knoxx stocks. It is interesting that you and yours dislike this stock, though I suppose for someone much more experienced with something quite different, that difference might cause some distaste as opposed to something more familiar.

Since I am not a very experienced shotgunner, I'm hoping this setup will work for me; I don't have the same experience with shotguns that you do, so I'm hoping that I will adapt to this configuration.

As always, I appreciate your input, and I guess it will be interesting to get a range report from this endeavor. I'm hoping for a "hey, it works good for me!" but you very well may have the last laugh.

Thanks for your posts, Lee. :)

[noyes]

shotgun tips

http://www.ospschool.com/osp-video-listing.php

[Webyshops.com]

Since it sounds like you are pretty set on the ghost sights - I won't try talking you out of it.

If you liked Eotech (http://www.riflescopes.webyshops.com/Brands/Eotech) on your other gun - I would get one for the shotgun too, but it's just me.

Alternatively, have you considered Leupold Deltapoint (http://www.riflescopes.webyshops.com/Brands/Leupold-Deltapoint-Reflex-Sights) or Burris FastFire (http://www.riflescopes.webyshops.com/Brands/Burris-FastFire-Sights)?

[T.A.Sharps]

Zentanker

If I were you, since you have a picatinny rail system on both the M4 and your 870, go ahead and take the Eotech off of the M4 (note the exact position) and put it on the 870 and go shoot it.

The picatinny rail system is pretty consistent, at least on your M4, and should be pretty close to original 0 when you reattach it to the M4.

Most of what I've heard of the picatinny rail design sounds like they require a little re-0'ing when you re-attach them, but only slightly.

This way you can try out the optics on the 870 with no additional money spent.

If it only required a couple groups to sight the Eotech back in on either firearm, I could see myself swapping them regularly depending on my range trip.

[Zentanker]

I do appreciate the great advice and information


...I think I am going to try try the BAR11DW ghost rings with the LG6 red fiber optic fronts.


If I can't hit anything with a slug, then I'll guess you guys can just tell me "told you so!"


;)

[inSight-NEO]

Well, while I am generally a fan of a simple Tritium front bead on a shotgun, if you must go with more, I would suggest a good set of ghost ring sights. This is, of course, assuming you will be shooting slugs out of that thing.

Is mounting a ghost ring on the picatinny rail a good idea? I don't seem to see that done very often

I think Mossberg does this with their 930 SP...unless I am mistaken.

[Zentanker]

I have recieved my sights... and the LPA rear ghost ring seems awesome, and of course installed in just moments.

The supposedly gunsmith free front sight "SG6M1F" I have no idea how to attach.

What I misinformed about this sight? Will I need a trip to the gunsmith?

This seems to indicate that I do not: http://www.lpasights.com/catalog-shotgun.html

"Ramp to be used together with BAR11W, with M1B or m1f or m1t adjustable front sight( photo sg6m1b). No welding or drilling needed; It is enough to insert the ring support and lock it on the barrel by the insert and the screws provided.
(pat. pend.)"


Without resulting to a sledgehammer, I have not idea how to put this on.

[zippy13]

From the description, it appears the front sight is two piece: an appropriate base and the actual sight -- is this the case, and do you have both parts? Perhaps they sent an incorrect base. Can you post a pic of the problem parts and your existing muzzle area?

It's starting to sounds like something out of an old school hot rod catalog: Very easy installation
Some fabrication, cutting and welding required