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Ultra12
May 17, 2010, 09:23 PM
Good day everybody, i am new here and so far tons of great info and this is a great forum. glad i found it.
My question is about kimber guns. I was told buy a gun dealer kimber guns are like HD bikes in a way, there are basic 4-5 models and the rest is "lipstick" meaning diff options on the same frame gives it a diff name.
I wonder if someone can give me some good info i am looking at non carry versions of kimber guns. I looked through their site and eclipse, custom and event tactical essentially look the same. I am sure there proud kimber owners, i hope you guys can share some of your likes and dislikes as well.
Thanks in advance

BCOWANWHEELS
May 17, 2010, 10:12 PM
Good guns, well fitted but full of MIM parts. look at what colt has to offer. is my opinion.

SouthCali
May 17, 2010, 10:28 PM
I am a Kimber fanboy, admittedly. They are perfect (in my experience) right out of the box, but then again your paying for it. the lipstick thing ive never heard, but it hold some validity. My Kimber CDP Ultra II and Kimber Raptor Pro are essentially identical with some different esthetics.

My Kimbers are my favorite 1911's, followed by Springfield TRP, then the list tapers off equally.

Go Kimber:D

williamd
May 17, 2010, 10:38 PM
Ratings .. mine ..

Colt
Dan Wesson
Springfield Armory
S&W (if you consider it a true 1911)
:
:
Kimber

Have not played with the Rock Island or C Daly (if you can find one)

SouthCali
May 17, 2010, 10:44 PM
William

Dan Wesson is on my to do list. I want the C BoB!!

I have the S&W but dont really consider it a true 1911

btw your added space before Kimber was unneeded!!:cool:

Jim243
May 17, 2010, 11:04 PM
What someone else makes a reliable perfect out of the box 1911????

That's news to me. Well I'll be.

http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt284/bigjim_02/IMG_0789.jpg

Jim

rsxr22
May 17, 2010, 11:13 PM
Kimber makes a great gun! Just like the polymer giants though there are also many other good options. There are a few other makes i would take over similar priced Kimbers. I would own the Springfield TRP and trophy match if it came in the armory kote finish. STI's Trojan is a great option, and Dan Wesson Valor. I am more of an all black guy and i like the tuff kote finishes because they seem to be much more durable. I look for a good fit and finish and front strap checkering is an absolute must for me. I would like some of the other SA models like the loaded if they only came with FSC

Jim243
May 17, 2010, 11:17 PM
Rsxr22

I would agree with you on the STI and DW, but they are twice the price of a Kimber. For the money Kimber is still the best buy out there.

Jim

rsxr22
May 17, 2010, 11:29 PM
I was comparing equal Kimber models. I own an SIS, Tactical, and Custom II. The SIS is around the same price as the TRP but i feel that with some simple trigger work it is much more gun. And the STI i was referring to was the Trojan which is $999 which is not anywhere near more than most Kimber's. I apologize though i could have been a little bit more clear about which models i was talking about

Jim243
May 18, 2010, 12:11 AM
That Custom II is a REALLY nice looking gun. Now if I could only win the Lottery, I could get one of each and give a better review.(LOL)

Best to all
Jim

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 06:45 AM
In what world is a DW CBOB twice the price of a Kimber? I would say Kimbers prices are on par with alot of decent 1911's out there and actually higher than a few. Dan Wesson gets my vote as the best value for the money 1911 out there, my CBOB has been flawless and has become a passdown gun, one that my son will receive one day.

sixxgunnernick
May 18, 2010, 06:58 AM
I have a SIS ultra and custom target II and absolutely love them..I haven't had the pleasure to shoot a Colt or Springer. I would feel real confident if I purchased one(Dan Wesson as well) I have read nothing but good things about them and I love the 1911. It's all about you the owner, the shooter..the guy spending his hard earned cash for something we love and enjoy. As for a purchase I would get three or four different makes in your price range and hold each one..compare them to each other. Do some research and enjoy. I would love to get the EMP by Springfield in .40 What a nice piece of steel.

45Gunner
May 18, 2010, 07:04 AM
I am the proud owner of 4 Kimbers and pound for pound, dollar for dollar, they are best gun out of the box. They are extremely accurate, reliable, well-balanced, and just plain fun to shoot.

Some may pooh-pooh the MIM parts but I say, if MIM is good enough for Jet Aircraft, they are good enough for my gun. Frankly, my oldest Kimber is better than 11 years old and has about 60,000 - 70,000 rounds fired and I have never had a major problem with the gun. My other Kimbers are newer and are also problem free.

I never had heard about window dressing a basic gun design and giving it a different name, with the possible exception of the CDP II, adding a Crimson Trace Laser and calling it Kimber Lite. However, with that being said, because of the inherent design of the 1911, one could interchange parts between two models with very little difficulty. If you are looking for encouragement to buy a Kimber, I will give it to you. Stay away from a used gun unless you really know how to recognize a gun that has been altered or messed with.

schmeky
May 18, 2010, 07:12 AM
Kimber is an excellent choice, mine has been the standard of comparison for the more than dozen or so 1911's I have owned since I bought my Kimber new about 14 years ago.

Also, those that talk bad about MIM components, probably don't understand the engineering and metallurgy that goes into the process.

BTW, Kimber sells more 1911's than all other 1911 makers, combined.

DBAR
May 18, 2010, 11:05 AM
I bought a Stainless Custom II years ago, and it had some failure to feed issues in the begining, but after I put a new extractor (that Kimber provided) in, and tuned it a bit, it has run perfectly. It's one of the guns that I'll probably never sell, as it's easily the most accurate 45 handgun that I own.

I agree that there are other 1911's available out there, but I can't really say that there are any that are better than the Kimber in the same price range. Everyone has their favorites, and everyone is going to be a little biased, so take some of the information that you receive with a grain of salt. Don't listen to the "MIM is Crap" crowd, MIM is a less expensive process of making parts, and the MIM parts in my guns have never failed.

I've owned a few different quality 1911's, but the only one I still own is my Kimber.

DBAR

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 12:09 PM
Dan Wesson - Ed Brown parts > Kimber - MIM parts

ostrobothnian
May 18, 2010, 12:28 PM
+1 on Kimber.

Pay no attention to the "MIM" bashers. They are quite humorous actually. Kind of like the guys that said "Aluminum pistons will never work." or "An aluminum engine block? It will blow up!"

Let us not forget aluminum cylinder liners with a silicon carbide coating. Oh the horror.

All manufacturing processes require attention. If the manufacturers of Kimber products are doing their job we will end up with a quality product. I trust my Kimbers and they have not failed.

Metallurgy works. Superstitions do not.

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 12:41 PM
Superstition ehh? I could have sworn I have heard of many a people complian about the MIM parts in their Kimbers breaking.... can't recall ever hearing someone complain about the Ed Brown parts used in higher quality 1911's breaking. YMMV

ostrobothnian
May 18, 2010, 12:48 PM
Never said Ed Brown products weren't the best. Gee, might find some of the fine hardware around here. :)

Osageshooter
May 18, 2010, 12:56 PM
I have a Kimber Grand Raptor ll from the "Custom Shop". No complaints, but I just was about to go Ed Brown when my pusher at the local gun shop put me in a Dan Wesson Valor. What a gun. It is hard for me to imagine where I would ask that it be improved. I don't dislike the Kimber, but look at the Dan Wessons and run the value equation.

DBAR
May 18, 2010, 12:59 PM
Superstition ehh? I could have sworn I have heard of many a people complian about the MIM parts in their Kimbers breaking.... can't recall ever hearing someone complain about the Ed Brown parts used in higher quality 1911's breaking. YMMV

If you do a search, you'll find that there are threads that are specific to MIM.... I'm just saying....

Ok, if you do any research on MIM, you'll find that if it's done properly, you get a very good quality product that's affordable.

I won't argue the fact that Kimber has had its fair share of complaints about some of their parts breaking. This was the case early on for the most part, before the MIM process they use improved. I won't argue, that some manufacturers are willing to risk the occasional dissatisfied customer in order to be able to produce a product that's profitable, and desirable by the market. This is exactly what Kimber, and some other manufacturers have done. Sig Sauer being one of them. They do the same thing. They make guns with some MIM components, so that they can keep their cost down and still make a desirable product at a profit. These companies understand that a very low percentage of the MIM isn't going to be perfect. This is a calculated risk that these companies are making, and for the most part, they usually can pull it off. They understand, as should we, that if MIM is going to break in a handgun, it's generally going to break early on in the initial few hundred rounds. Most people will generally put a few hundred rounds through their handguns before carrying for duty, or conceal carry.

DBAR

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 01:05 PM
I'm not disputing that MIM parts have their place or the fact that I'm certain the process has improved since 1973. What I don't understand is how can Kimber and all their MIM parts charge more for a commander length 1911 than DW does for their CBOB with Ed Brown parts and people still think Kimber is better? How is that possible? I have experience with both so I speak from personal experience, if others have similar experience with both manufacturers, please chime in.

18DAI
May 18, 2010, 01:06 PM
So, we should just accept the cost cutting measures, and fork over a bunch of dollars, and hope we aren't the unlucky customer who gets a Kimber that breaks in the "initial few hundred rounds" ??? :barf:

P.T. Barnum was right. :rolleyes:

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 01:15 PM
Well here's my take on Kimber.... from personal experience, the first 2 Kimbers in my possession about 3 or 4 years ago were straight garbage, FTF, FTE, and FTRTB all day everyday, twas an Eclipse and a Pro Carry, paperweights really. Got rid of those and hated Kimber every since. My dad recently purchased a Pro TLE II with CT grips, wowzers, now that thing has been rock solid and I like it ALOT. Kimber is a crap shoot to me until I see more rock solid performers. I take that back, my dad's Pro TLE II did have several FTFeed with Wilson Combat 47D's but the factory mags were flawless, go figure.

ScottRiqui
May 18, 2010, 01:19 PM
What I don't understand is how can Kimber and all their MIM parts charge more for a commander length 1911 than DW does for their CBOB with Ed Brown parts and people still think Kimber is better? How is that possible? I have experience with both so I speak from personal experience, if others have similar experience with both manufacturers, please chime in.

Not saying this is necessarily the case with Kimber, but sometimes you get truly brilliant guys in the marketing department. Harley-Davidson is an example of this. They carefully cultivate an aura of individuality and exclusivity, but in reality, more than half of the 650cc & larger bikes sold in America are Harleys.

I see this in the gun trade with the word "custom" - it's almost as overused as "tactical", and it makes people think they're getting some limited-production, hand-fitted gun when in fact there's nothing "custom" about it at all.

DBAR
May 18, 2010, 01:45 PM
I'm not disputing that MIM parts have their place or the fact that I'm certain the process has improved since 1973. What I don't understand is how can Kimber and all their MIM parts charge more for a commander length 1911 than DW does for their CBOB with Ed Brown parts and people still think Kimber is better? How is that possible? I have experience with both so I speak from personal experience, if others have similar experience with both manufacturers, please chime in.

I personally don't think Kimber is better than Dan Wesson, but I'm very happy with my Kimber. I only paid $675 for my Kimber Stainless II, and it's a handgun that I feel 100% comfortable keeping around for defensive purposes. It's also a very, very good looking 1911. I'm not saying that my Kimber is a better 1911 that a Dan Wesson CBOB with Ed Brown parts, but I ain't going to fix it, if it aint broken. I'm also going to have to say that I'm sure Dan Wesson has some cost cutting measures in their manufacturering process. It may not be MIM, but If they didn't cut somewhere, they wouldn't be able to maintain their profitability.

I also like my Sig P220 that only cost $450 used, and I ain't going to say it's better than a $1,000 H&K that has no MIM parts. What I am saying, is that I'm perfectly happy with it, and it hasn't broke in thousands of rounds, so maybe it is better?

I'm not saying it's acceptable for anyone to have to get the 1 that doesn't work right, but that sort of thing happens no matter what manufacturer your buying from. These big companies have to make business decisions that keep them profitable, but maybe they should just make their guns completely from bar stock, and hand fit, and finish them all. If you people can put together a business plan that shows me how to manufacturer handguns that way, and stay profitable, then I'm confident I could get the money to start a business with you.

DBAR

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 02:00 PM
Troof

whippoorwill
May 18, 2010, 02:13 PM
Have both Kimber and Dan Wesson... and both are great. Love them equally.

YZR
May 18, 2010, 02:21 PM
I just purchased a Kimber Ultra Raptor II and, although I have only shot it once so far, it has functioned flawlessly. Time will tell if it will hold up but so far I could not be happier.

Warchild
May 18, 2010, 02:24 PM
One of the biggest issues I believe I have heard people say about their new Kimbers is the slide stop or more over a round hitting it while feeding, that may cause issues. From everything I have heard Kimber is great about getting a new one out pronto so if you run into any issues YZR, take a look at that first and give Kimber a call. Hopefully it will continue to run flawless.

SouthCali
May 18, 2010, 04:48 PM
just purchased a Kimber Ultra Raptor II and, although I have only shot it once so far, it has functioned flawlessly. Time will tell if it will hold up but so far I could not be happier.

have it. You are in for a world of happiness and satisfaction with that beauty! believe me

Shane Tuttle
May 18, 2010, 10:27 PM
What I don't understand is how can Kimber and all their MIM parts charge more for a commander length 1911 than DW does for their CBOB with Ed Brown parts and people still think Kimber is better? How is that possible? I have experience with both so I speak from personal experience, if others have similar experience with both manufacturers, please chime in.

I share the same sentiment.

I'm also going to have to say that I'm sure Dan Wesson has some cost cutting measures in their manufacturering process. It may not be MIM, but If they didn't cut somewhere, they wouldn't be able to maintain their profitability.

There's cost cutting measures that mean streamlining production efficiency, and there's cost cutting measures that sacrifice quality in the product itself. I believe Dan Wesson's philosophy follows the former and Kimber follows the latter. Also, quality of management plays a large part in production regarding quality AND quantity. It's well known about the management debacle Kimber has gone through in recent years.

My personal experience with Kimber is less than stellar to say the least. I have absolutely NO desire to take a another chance with a company that I spent my hard earned money on and lost my butt the first time around. On top of that, there are MANY other companies out there that provide quality 1911 variants. Why would I resort to even think of having the obligation to buy from Kimber again when there's clearly better options out there? The only Kimbers I would buy are used Clakamas models. Those are the models that truly represented Kimber the way they used to be.

That's my take on the matter.

williamd
May 19, 2010, 12:07 AM
When I took this my Kimber (Custom Polymer, that some do not consider a 'real' Kimber but it sez so on the pistol!) was not availble. And, I forgot my P16-40. There is one 38Super and one 380. All other are 45ACP. From 1916 to 2009.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59927&d=127424565

SouthCali
May 19, 2010, 12:30 AM
nice! ill take the top 11 o'clock:D

Head-Space
May 19, 2010, 12:32 AM
Get a Springfield Mil-Spec. Otherwise you're buying a "copy" of a wannabe "race gun."

williamd
May 19, 2010, 12:38 AM
SouthCali nice! ill take the top 11 o'clock

That is my SA Champion and it is the second best shooter on the table. Just behind the S70 GC at 4 o'clock. I find he SA fully loadeds are a bit more to my satisfaction. But, my fav here is the 1916 vintage.

SA stainess mil at 7 o'cock.

Sturmgewehre
May 19, 2010, 03:36 PM
There's cost cutting measures that mean streamlining production efficiency, and there's cost cutting measures that sacrifice quality in the product itself. I believe Dan Wesson's philosophy follows the former and Kimber follows the latter. Also, quality of management plays a large part in production regarding quality AND quantity. It's well known about the management debacle Kimber has gone through in recent years.

My personal experience with Kimber is less than stellar to say the least. I have absolutely NO desire to take a another chance with a company that I spent my hard earned money on and lost my butt the first time around. On top of that, there are MANY other companies out there that provide quality 1911 variants. Why would I resort to even think of having the obligation to buy from Kimber again when there's clearly better options out there? The only Kimbers I would buy are used Clakamas models. Those are the models that truly represented Kimber the way they used to be.

That's my take on the matter.
Same here. Bought them, had trouble with them, inspected them inside and out and discovered their extremely poor quality, sold them and won't do it again. There are too many well made alternatives to even consider Kimber.

Let's not mention their customer service is probably the worst I've ever encountered... and again, there are too many other alternatives out there with stellar reputations to bother messing with Kimber.

Kimber has mastered the art of advertising and selling itself as the best there is all the while delivering probably the worst quality $800+ 1911's on the market. You would be FAR ahead of the game by investing your money in a quality competitor like Dan Wesson, Springfield or S&W. Heck, I would take a Taurus over Kimber and I'm no fan of Taurus.

williamd
June 5, 2010, 01:48 PM
Now I can add a Baer TRS!

ttheel
June 5, 2010, 03:56 PM
Quote:
I'm not disputing that MIM parts have their place or the fact that I'm certain the process has improved since 1973. What I don't understand is how can Kimber and all their MIM parts charge more for a commander length 1911 than DW does for their CBOB with Ed Brown parts and people still think Kimber is better? How is that possible? I have experience with both so I speak from personal experience, if others have similar experience with both manufacturers, please chime in.

Warchild

I personally don't think Kimber is better than Dan Wesson, but I'm very happy with my Kimber. I only paid $675 for my Kimber Stainless II, and it's a handgun that I feel 100% comfortable keeping around for defensive purposes. It's also a very, very good looking 1911. I'm not saying that my Kimber is a better 1911 that a Dan Wesson CBOB with Ed Brown parts, but I ain't going to fix it, if it aint broken. I'm also going to have to say that I'm sure Dan Wesson has some cost cutting measures in their manufacturering process. It may not be MIM, but If they didn't cut somewhere, they wouldn't be able to maintain their profitability.

I also like my Sig P220 that only cost $450 used, and I ain't going to say it's better than a $1,000 H&K that has no MIM parts. What I am saying, is that I'm perfectly happy with it, and it hasn't broke in thousands of rounds, so maybe it is better?

I'm not saying it's acceptable for anyone to have to get the 1 that doesn't work right, but that sort of thing happens no matter what manufacturer your buying from. These big companies have to make business decisions that keep them profitable, but maybe they should just make their guns completely from bar stock, and hand fit, and finish them all. If you people can put together a business plan that shows me how to manufacturer handguns that way, and stay profitable, then I'm confident I could get the money to start a business with you.

DBAR

There is a significant difference in the price of DW and Kimber now. You are looking at $1500 for a VBOB now. You cannot consider CBOB since it is no longer available. Alot folks are not going to be able to fork out that kind of dough for a pistol. Kimber is a good alternative for much less and yes they are getting a quality 1911.

ftballgod
June 5, 2010, 07:44 PM
i just bought a pro carry. i am really pumped to take it to the range.

SVO
June 5, 2010, 09:37 PM
It's interesting to note that one of the major suppliers of 1911 aftermarket/custom parts now are offering MIM parts. For some reason, my Colt having a plastic trigger and other plastic parts bother me more than my Kimber having MIM parts.

I have to wonder how many Kimber/MIM bashers have really ever owned a Kimber.

Rinspeed
June 5, 2010, 09:53 PM
Years ago the Wilson CQB had some MIM parts including the hammer and sear. Over all the MIM drama enough people called and complained so Wilson said the hell with it and switched to all tool steel parts and raised the price $300-400. You get what you ask for I guess. :confused:

THORN74
June 5, 2010, 10:35 PM
well i have owned a Kimber PRO CDP for over a decade and have NEVER had an issue with it. infact i put 100 rounds thru her today, she performed like a champ!!

I would never talk anyone out of getting a Kimber firearm.

as for the OPs lipstick comment .... i can see where someone might think that ... they have basically about 10 different models and each model comes in 3 sizes.

Rinspeed
June 5, 2010, 11:52 PM
Same here. Bought them, had trouble with them, inspected them inside and out and discovered their extremely poor quality,




So in other words you weren't smart enough to get them to run right so all Kimbers are all junk. ;)