View Full Version : I Hated Glocks
brockgl
May 15, 2010, 08:15 PM
Until this week...
I own multiple high-end and custom 1911's, Sigs, many beautiful S&W revolvers, and a number of other handguns. Glocks have never interested me. They all look the same; every cop in the nation owns one (so they're not unique); and their frames are plastic!
Last week I started a thread, on a state-specific gun forum that I frequent, called, "The Best Handgun in the World?"
I was basically asking everybody, given specific criteria, which ONE gun fits their description as the best handgun in the world? The criteria I gave was as follows:
- Price
- Capacity
- Concealability
- Comfort to shoot
- Caliber
- Visual Aesthetics
- Accuracy
- Reliability
- OTHER... (Feel free to add your own category)
I was not starting this thread to figure out which handgun to buy. I wasn't even in the market for a new handgun; I have plenty!
At the time of starting this thread, my personal recommendation of the best handgun in the world was the .40 cal Sig P229. I guess the only thing I could think of that would improve this gun would be to make it a bit slimmer.
However, I got so many responses from people recommending the Glock 19 as the best handgun in the world, that it made me start thinking.
I didn't own any Glocks. I have never REALLY hated them, like the title of this thread would lead you to believe. I just never wanted to own one myself.
I have actually recommended them numerous times to people who were wondering what handgun they should buy as a first home defense/carry gun. They have such a great reputation for reliability and ease of use that I knew I was safe recommending them even though I've never owned one. And since I've been shooting handguns since before I can remember, ease of use isn't a huge factor to me, because I'm more than comfortable using the more "complicated designs" out there.
While thinking about the Glock 19, however, I watched a number of Glock videos on youtube, including this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri5AyXzxb4o. I had a very hard time sleeping that night. All I could think about was going to the gun store the next day to buy my first G19.
Well, I did it, and here it is:
http://www.bglz.net/images/glock/g19_1.jpg
Glock 19 w/Trijicon Night Sights, and it came with 3 magazines for $549...
I truly couldn't be happier with this gun! The day I got it home I detail stripped it, did a .25 cent trigger job (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8ZFj7qll4) on it, cleaned all the factory gunk off of everything, lubed it up and reassembled. I can't believe how well made it is. When cleaning with solvent soaked Q-tips, I usually have to switch Q-tips very often since most guns have machine marks and rough spots that destroy my cotton Q-tips. However, this gun is so smooth on the inside, that I don't think I had to toss out a single Q-tip due to it tearing up on rough spots. I'm a clean-a-holic, so this is important to me.
I took it to the range the next day and put 300 flawless rounds through it.
Here is a picture of my very first target at 30 feet; this is an entire box of ammo:
http://www.bglz.net/images/glock/g19_target.jpg
They're a bit to the left, but I'm sure it's my grip. I do that with a few of my guns.
I have been carrying this gun exclusively all week, and I can tell you it's the most comfortable mid-size handgun I own.
I am a convert, and I have a feeling more black plastic guns are in my future.
RockyMtnTactical
May 15, 2010, 08:22 PM
I love Glocks, always have. I am kind of the opposite of you. I started with Glocks but have been going through a bit of a 1911 renaissance lately. I'll never give up my Glocks though.
I have a Glock 19 as well and that gun is excellent.
http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/Glock19.jpg
varoadking
May 15, 2010, 08:35 PM
Several of my Glocks...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/Mancave/test2018.jpg
lee n. field
May 15, 2010, 08:51 PM
I Hated Glocks
Until this week.
He has seen the light!
http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n138/krwada/media/movies/comedy/the_light_blues_brothers.jpg
bufordtjustice
May 15, 2010, 08:52 PM
In short, you did exactly what I did. I didn't like them for the longest time then finally bought one. Now I have 4 and have sold others off as well. I still love my high end 1911's, etc. but you hit the nail on the head in regards to the attributes of the G19. It probably isn't the best at anything but certainly is good at almost everything.
One of the primary things that sold me on them is the consistent trigger pull. I absolutely can't stand SA/DA weapons and that is what I have been forced to carry for a long time. I used to have a Sig 228 in 9mm and now have to carry a 229 in .357 Sig. They aren't bad guns but I personally would take a Glock any day of the week.
EricandSuebee
May 15, 2010, 09:02 PM
I completely agree with you guys as well, after handling a couple of glocks I settled on the G19, it just felt so natural in my hand and is very accurate, but unfortunately I need to sell mine due to losing my job so if anyone is looking for a LNIB G19 with only 50 rounds through it send em my way.
RV4driver
May 15, 2010, 09:24 PM
Interesting. I just finished an NRA pistol instructor course, and the trainer remarked that if he could have only ONE gun, it would be the G19. I hadn't considered a G-gun prior to that, but now he has me thinking. I guess it wouldn't KILL me to own a Glock...
Still, I hardly need ANOTHER 9mm. I just can't think of what I presently own that I would consider getting rid of. Decisions, decisions...
Jeff
7jinxed7
May 15, 2010, 09:31 PM
Welcome to the darkside my son.We have been waiting for you,welcome. Once you go Glock theirs turning back.
I bought a G23 as my first (good) handgun.I had a Taurus PT111 millenium for my actual first pistol. I sold the Taurus when I realized what crap it was after shooting my G23. The only way I will part with my Glock is to get another one.I plan on buying the new gen4 maybe in a 9mm.
Ridge_Runner_5
May 15, 2010, 10:09 PM
:D:D:D
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/Dsc_0003.jpg
redstategunnut
May 15, 2010, 10:11 PM
I own several dozen handguns. I used to swap around what I would carry, the so-called "rotation." I own high end 1911s, big wheel guns, j-frames, you name it.
Once upon a time, I was packing for a road trip. I would be gone almost two weeks. I couldn't take a bunch of guns.
I thought for a long time about which one gun would serve me well under all of the circumstances over those two weeks. That included 2000 miles of interstate, an overnight stay on the road, multiple gas stations as yet unknown at all hours of day and night, travel where concealment was mandatory, salt air at the ocean, twelve nights in my home away from home, restaurants, and so on.
I left everything else at home and carried the G19 every day for two weeks. When I got home, I took everything but my G19 to my dad's and put it in the safe for long-term storage.
The one gun to rule them all: G19.
revolverrandy
May 15, 2010, 10:43 PM
I am still on the hate side for Glocks:D
gobm667
May 15, 2010, 10:51 PM
cant beat um.. i love my glocks.. carry one everyday with my ccw... all my buddys hated them for years.. but my friend just put his first one in layaway today.. and my other glock hater is looking for a 23... funny how they get you.. you cant beat how well they work.. it wont win a beauty contest but it will work every time... i hope they burry me with my g26..
brockgl
May 15, 2010, 10:55 PM
revolverrandy:
give it time... =) I was on the hate side for about 13 years. This is because I had never disassembled one and cleaned it. Once I had mine detail stripped and saw the quality with which they are manufactured, I was sold. I am considering selling off a large number of revolvers and semi-autos (Sigs included) to fund Glock purchases. This is no joke.
gobm667
May 15, 2010, 11:22 PM
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c355/tilldeathgallery667/glock.jpg thought i would share my g26 and g19 a few of my glocks
Kreyzhorse
May 16, 2010, 06:54 AM
Let's see, a gun that won't break the bank and is reliable too? Everyone should own at least one.
smince
May 16, 2010, 07:26 AM
cleaned all the factory gunk off of everything, lubed it up and reassembledThe copper-colored material on the rails was meant to stay on.
LanceOregon
May 16, 2010, 07:47 AM
Imports that come from Austria have a reputation of having very high quality and offering exceptional performance:
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4043/4611094789_6bdb4b3b2f_o.jpg
Chris_B
May 16, 2010, 07:57 AM
Handled one, don't like the grip angle, and that's that
I like this Teutonic import, although I can't seem to find "W. Germany" on a map ;)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v441/Chuck_Older/P226.jpg
brockgl
May 16, 2010, 08:30 AM
The copper-colored material on the rails was meant to stay on.
That gunk is meant for people who are either not knowledgeable about how a gun should be properly maintained and cleaned or for lazy people who choose to never clean their guns (which I've heard is not a problem with Glocks). The manufacturer puts the statement in the manual about leaving the gunk on so that they are not held liable when someone cleans it off but doesn't re-lube it properly.
I clean and re-lube my guns after EVERY range trip, even if I only put one round through it. And I also clean and re-lube my carry guns at least once per month whether they've been shot or not.
Do you honestly believe that copper gunk is going to stay on there forever? After 5 to 10 cleanings, if you use any kind of solvent on the slide and barrel that gunk is bound to start wearing off on it's own.
Nevertheless, I replaced it with a very similar grease. So, I'm not too worried.
brockgl-- your experience was almost exactly the same as mine. I now have multiple Glocks and am just waiting for the Gen 4 G19 so I can pick up one of those.http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/Guns/IMG_0009.jpg
berettaprofessor
May 16, 2010, 08:46 AM
Still hate Glocks. Not a fan of the trigger and that isn't changing.
Rich Miranda
May 16, 2010, 08:55 AM
Glocks obviously rank highly in all categories EXCEPT ONE: ergonomics.
I have never held a gun that felt more like a 2x4 than a Glock. Even guns designed a full CENTURY before the Glock feel better in the hand. Then they go and add a "Rough Texture Frame".... how about a Comfortable Grip Frame instead? :p
Of course, we all have our preferences, and I do acknowledge that Glocks are outstanding performers.
KySilverado
May 16, 2010, 09:19 AM
I owned a Glock 20 a few years back. Put thousands of rounds through it. I never did come to like the trigger, the egro's and it seemed to cycle slower than heck.
I very seldom sell guns once I get them. I eventually sold this one. Course the money I made on it was a major factor, I got it before the large capacity magazine bans and had like 6 -15 round mags and sold it during the ban. I think the mags themselves were going for about $100 apiece.
I don't know if I will ever own another.
Uncle Malice
May 16, 2010, 09:55 AM
Still hate Glocks. Not a fan of the trigger and that isn't changing.
I agree with you on the STOCK Glock trigger. I would suggest that you try a customized Glock trigger. The only gun that has a better trigger than my Glocks are high end 1911's.
I have installed the 3.5lb Ghost Rocket with 6lb trigger spring. This reduced the pull to about 4lb and takes out any overtravel. I then installed the Lightning Strike titanium firing pin plunger. This smoothed out take up and lowered the pull by another .5-1lb. Finally, I installed the Lightning Strike milled aluminum trigger.
All of this together results in a trigger with about 40-50% less take up, very light, clean break with zero overtravel, and a reset point of about 1-2mm.
The gun a joy to shoot. Sigs are still my favorite guns - but even my P220 Elite Stainless with the SRT trigger can't beat the trigger on my Glock 19.
jhenry
May 16, 2010, 11:55 AM
The copper stuff is just anti-sieze lube. You can get it at the Napa store if you want some.
The Glock trigger only bothered me for a day or so. No problem now. Reliability is excellent, accuracy is fine, ergonomics work for me as is, and a variety of calibers are available. Add to that ease of maintanence and near weather proof finish, and it is a winner. There are folks who just don't care for the grip or trigger, which is fine, not all guns fit al hands. Some folks just can't accept reality. Not so fine, but it is their concern. I shoot some maches with a guy who could barely contain his hatred for Glocks, and went on and on ad nauseum about how they are junk etc. All the normal gun snobbery sputum. It's not a 1911 etc, and so on. (not that I dislike the 1911 at all). The problem was, he could not manage to make his high dollar super custom 1911 run through a days match without a malfunction. Never once. Other guys could, but not this fumble bum. He still maintains his snobbery, and his malfunction magnate. I still shoot my tactical tupperware and tick right along.
revolverrandy
May 16, 2010, 12:06 PM
brockgl
I know there must be something to them being reliable guns and all and they have a good reputation and following.For me,part of the gun experience is its beauty ,almost like a piece of art.I just don't buy into any gun made out of plastic.If they were like $100 or $150 tops for a glock,I might buy one,but i would not be willing to pay more than that for a chunk of plastic
christcorp
May 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
No doubt that glocks are reliable and dependable. And cheap. But I just will never like them. Not unless they totally change how they are built. I shoot on a regular basis. I shoot with friends who own glocks. I probably shoot at least 2 glocks a month. EVERY MONTH. And I still don't like them. I don't like their triggers. I don't like how they feel. I don't like their recoil. I just don't like them. I've shot 9mm, 40sw, and 45acp. I don't like any of them. But I definitely won't say that they are a bad gun. They aren't. Just not for me. And probably never will be. And for what it's worth, not all police officers use a glock, and not all that use one like them. Matter of fact, I work with the highway patrol, and many of the troopers say they aren't the most fond of them. But that is what they are issued and must use. They say they are OK, but it would NEVER be their first choice. But unfortunately, many LE agencies buy guns with tax dollars, and such contracts are bid out with the lowest bid winning. Glock happens to be much cheapers than HK, Sig, and S&W and therefor they win the contracts. Not because they are better. But, they do meet the minimum requirements, just like the Sig, HK, Springfield, and S&W do, so they are accepted because of their price.
Me personally, I prefer the Sig. As for Poly guns, I really like the S&W M&P. So I don't hate glocks in the respect that I would tell someone else to never own one. That they are dangerous. That they are a compromise on their life. On the contrary, I think they are a very reliable and dependable gun. But I personally would never own one. And because police officers rarely ever shoot their pistols; except for yearly or semi-yearly qualifications; they don't put enough rounds through them to be a major problem. So for their price, they are a good deal. Especially when you're buying hundreds of them. But being I'm only buying 1 gun for a particular purpose, I don't mind paying an extra $200-$400 on a gun that I think is better and that I prefer.
johns7022
May 16, 2010, 12:38 PM
Glocks are junk...you don't see the pros use them, only peeps walking into gunstores asking 'hey which gun should I buy?'
Kabooms, melted guide rods after a 1000 rds, I personaly had the much vaunted light primer strike failure to fire issue...that ofcourse required buying aftermarket barrels to fix....
But if I had to buy a Glock, like if Aliens were after me and I could only choose a Glock..then it would be the G19, simply because it has a nice carry weight/profile, and the 9mm rd is easy to feed.....
Uncle Malice
May 16, 2010, 01:37 PM
Glocks are junk...you don't see the pros use them, only peeps walking into gunstores asking 'hey which gun should I buy?'
Kabooms, melted guide rods after a 1000 rds, I personaly had the much vaunted light primer strike failure to fire issue...that ofcourse required buying aftermarket barrels to fix....
But if I had to buy a Glock, like if Aliens were after me and I could only choose a Glock..then it would be the G19, simply because it has a nice carry weight/profile, and the 9mm rd is easy to feed.....
Your ignorance and obvious lack of any use or research is extremely evident by this post. This means that it will be given zero credibility.
I suppose the FBI doesn't count as professional in your opinion. :rolleyes:
christcorp
May 16, 2010, 01:45 PM
I definitely think Johns is speaking from a personal, and possibly isolated situation. But the fact that the FBI uses glocks does not impress me. As I said before, the reason the FBI and Many law enforcement agencies buy glocks is NOT because they are the best gun out there. That simply is not the truth. These types of agencies buy guns with tax dollars. And their rules require them to purchase through the bidding process. And when the RFP or RFQ goes out to manufacturers, the ones that meet the minimum requirements presented in the RFP/RFQ present a bid. Glocks definitely meet the minimum requirements and thus they bid. Glock, because of the material used and other reasons, can sell for a lot less than companies like Sig and HK. That is why so many LE type agencies use glocks. If Sig could have bid less, then they are the ones all the LE agencies would be buying. And of course, there would be those that would say that Sig must be the greatest because that's what all the LE agencies are using. I think you'll find it quite interesting, and possibly depressing, if you look at agencies that give an allocation to their officers and allows them to buy whatever pistol they want. I bet that glock wouldn't be the overwhelming 1st choice. Glock is indeed a reliable and dependable gun, it's just that it's not better than many of the others. It's just a lot less expensive than many of the others like HK and Sig.
jhenry
May 16, 2010, 02:03 PM
Well Johns...what pros ARE you talking about?
Peeps :rolleyes:
smince
May 16, 2010, 04:05 PM
I clean mine every time I shoot it, although I like guns that don't HAVE to be cleaned each time they go out.
I just greased over the anti-seize lube. Never had a malf in the multi-thousand round history of any of my Glocks.
LanceOregon
May 16, 2010, 04:51 PM
Glocks obviously rank highly in all categories EXCEPT ONE: ergonomics.
Rich:
The other is good looks.
If one wants a handsome gun, then get a SIG:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s272/lanceJOregon/guns/245_new_online.jpg
johns, I am sure you have A LOT more experience than Larry Vickers, but he seems to like the Glock platform enough to create a special mag release with his name on it. Here are a couple other "pros" who are Glockophiles
"When God carries concealed, he carries a Glock 19" – Paul A. Hotaling, Grey Group Training
Why Glock, why 9mm?
Published on 05-04-2010 02:31 PM
1 Comment Comments
Why Glock, why 9mm?
I am often asked "Why a Glock" and "Why 9mm"?
Since 1990 I have carried on duty Beretta, Sig, Smith & Wesson, H&K, Colt, Les Baer, Springfield Armory, Para Ord, Kimber, and Glock (there may be others, but those are the only models that I recall as I'm writing this article)
I have had the opportunity to shoot Styer, Taurus, Walther, S&W Sigma, S&W M&P, Wilson Combat, Ruger, CZ, Desert / Baby Eagle, STI / SVI, Browning HP, and several other pistols.
In the late 1990's I narrowed my handgun choices to 1911's and Glocks. Because it's what I shot best and what I felt most comfortable with.
Up until 2001 I had always been a fan of the .45acp, but felt comfortable with a .40cal. I had always felt that the 9mm was under powered.
I generally carried a 1911 on duty, but when it came to stressful shooting (ie. SWAT qual, Firearms Instructor's qual, etc) I would use a Glock because I felt more comfortable with it under stress. I found time and time again that I shot better with a Glock under stress. The Glock had the same trigger pull every time, the grip angle was perfect, no grip safeties to worry about in awkward positions, the size of the grip was just right, no safety levers, decockers, etc.
In 2001 I attended a two day tactical pistol course. As a test to myself to see which platform suited me better, I shot the first day of class with a Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special (full size 1911) and the second day of class with a Glock 35 (the Glock 35 is Glock's Pratical / Tactical model and is almost the same size as a full size 1911). It was after this class of shooting 500 rounds per day through each gun, back to back, that I realized that I preferred the Glock platform by a wide margin.
I have been through several other training classes, matches, and training, and shot both guns and found that under stress, shooting one handed, shooting in awkward positions, shooting on the move, shooting while trying to perform other tasks other tasks, etc. that the Glock was easier for me to shoot and easier for me to get hits on target.
"Why the 9mm"? During a tactical pistol class several years ago, the instructor stated "Pistol bullets poke holes, rifle bullets tear [color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color][color=#FF0000]█[/color] up". The quote stuck in my mind for some time. I thought back to the effects different pistol rounds having on animals, victim's of shootings, and Officer involved shootings that I had seen personally and read about during my career. I couldn't think of a single shooting where the person or animal was shot with a 9mm and lived, but would have died if the round would have been a .40S&W or a .45acp. And I could not think of a single shooting where a person or animal was shot with a .40S&W or a .45acp and died, but would have survived if the round would have been a 9mm.
With 9mm being approximately half the price of .45acp, the recoil of 9mm being less than the .45acp, and knowing shot placement is much more important than caliber, it's not hard to understand why I switched over to 9mm. With one pistol platform in a single caliber it cuts costs when purchasing magazines, holsters, magazine pouches, gunsmithing gear, sights, and ammo. Supporting one platform and one caliber is much more cost effective than purchasing holsters, magazine pouches, magazines, ammo, etc. for several different platforms in several different calibers.
After the training class in 2001 (mentioned above) and knowing that I had use the Glock (instead of the 1911) for stressful shooting courses, I started to rethink my mentality on pistols and pistol calibers. I did some soul searching and realized that I disliked the 9mm for many years and favored the 1911 based on the hype I heard from other shooters and gun magazines ("Real shooters carry a 1911" ... "Real men carry .45's" ... etc).
Every time I had taken a pistol class, shot in a match, practiced at the range, etc, it solidified that I shot better under stressful conditions with a Glock. But I was carrying a pistol and caliber due to hype, not on what pistol and caliber suited me the best.
Choose the platform and caliber best suits you based on comfort, ergonomics, personal preferences, and what you shoot with the best. Don't get married to a platform or caliber just because you precieve it's cool or because you have a lot of money invested in your firearm or equipment.
Jeff Carpenter is a former United States Marine and is currently employeed as a Detective / SWAT Officer. Jeff has worked as a full time sworn law enforcement officer for over 14 years and currently works for a medium sized city police department in Colorado where he is assigned as a Detective and has been an active member of the SWAT Team for over 11 years and is also a Firearms Instructor for his agency and SWAT Team. He has been hosting (and attending as a student) two to seven tactical training classes a year, every year since 2001.
LOUcifer
May 16, 2010, 05:08 PM
I'm a former Block owner...and the only thing I have to say about that is I wish I would have given an M&P a chance sooner than I did :)
MTS840
May 16, 2010, 06:08 PM
Glocks are junk...you don't see the pros use them, only peeps walking into gunstores asking 'hey which gun should I buy?'
Kabooms, melted guide rods after a 1000 rds, I personaly had the much vaunted light primer strike failure to fire issue...that ofcourse required buying aftermarket barrels to fix....
Well, that's just laughable. I mean unless you wanted to make a total A$$ of yourself before the whole world.
Speaking of the world, in addition to the thousands of local, state and Federal law enforcement agencies in the USA, including the DEA and FBI, there are Glocks in the hands of military and police agencies the world over.
No doubt, every gun manufacturer has produced lemons. Glock is no different. Thankfully, OEM or aftermarket parts and accessories are abundant and inexpensive.
On the other hand, many of the worlds "pros" have chosen Glocks because they are reliable, lightweight, affordable and reasonably accurate.
But don't take my word for it. Find the country of your choice and check out their 'pros' who use Glocks. Then you can put your favorite gun and your training up against theirs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol
Oh, and good luck with that! :)
Lokpyrite
May 16, 2010, 06:19 PM
I don't own any glocks, but that's only because of their grip/grip angle. They are well built and well priced. In fact I'm considering purchasing a used Glock 10mm that's going for 328$
jaughtman
May 16, 2010, 07:20 PM
but it is the most fool-proof and reliable pistol I have ever shot so the ugly thing stays in my bed-side stand as my HD gun. When I go out in public/the range/hunting I take my pretty pistols - got several CZ's/HK's that are more accurate and look better and handle/conceal better, but when that thump in the night makes me fumble for a gun, I want it to be the ugly Glock.
sdj
May 17, 2010, 12:37 AM
I decided to try Glocks on whim one day, wanting to experience them "first hand" and see what the hype was all about (both pro and con). Coming from revolvers and full-sized, all-steel 1911s, the Glock was different, for sure. I bought one, decided to stick with it and work on my marksmanship. After some weeks, it began to pay off. Like other posters to this thread, I have learned to appreciate the positive: robust, reliable, consistent, easy-to-use, easy to switch hands with, easy to break-down, clean and re-assemble, and very well made. Come what may, Glocks are as practical as the day is long.
Stiofan
May 17, 2010, 01:14 AM
I don't like Glocks, because I don't like their looks, period. There are just so many decent guns out there, and I'm sure Glock is one, that I can own some that I like to look at.
Personally I'd rather buy any number of 1911s, CZs, Sigs, S&Ws, none of which I currently own, before I'd spend my money on a Glock. But from everyone's account they are a fine gun. I just can't stand how they look (and I won't buy any other square clones either).
Don't hate me for it. Just the way it is. They are flugly. Sorry.
voyager4520
May 17, 2010, 01:29 AM
You're in the same boat as most Glock owners. Who wouldn't love the AK of pistols once they've tried one?
LanceOregon
May 17, 2010, 02:11 AM
Who wouldn't love the AK of pistols once they've tried one?
Not everyone can adapt and get used to the trigger.
.
AZAK
May 17, 2010, 02:22 AM
Once you go Glock theirs turning back.
Having owned three Glocks, a G29 for over eight years, and firing many rounds down range... I can agree with the above statement as written.
Yes, Glocks do what they are meant to do. Yes, they are reliable. Yes, they are ugly, and top heavy beasts. Yes, the stock trigger does indeed really benefit from some attention. Yes, they are a good value.
But, I personally no longer own any.
Why? Because, for me, I have other pistols that I consider better.
Not to say that I might not pick up another, the .45 GAP is interesting and would be fun to try out in person as opposed to hearsay, and the G19 might be interesting, not owning any 9mms for well over a decade-closer to two plus - I might try out that one some time.
But, for the time being I seem to be rather enjoying all of my 1911s and .22lr pistols far too much.
YMMV
hagar
May 17, 2010, 12:19 PM
I own a couple of Glocks, G20, G26 and a G19. Hated them when they first came out, a friend of mine had an early G17 that could not shoot better than a 6 inch group at 10 yards, the most inaccurate handgun I ever fired. First one I bought was a G20 in 1995, and I bought it more for the 10mm cartridge, hoping it would be halfway accurate. Turned out to be a superb shooter, so much so that I bought a G26 for concealed carry to replace my Star Firestar. The 9mm's shoot ok at 15 yards, but any further and they are not as accurate as my Sigs, or even my Sigmas. For a full size pistol, I much prefer the Sigma over the Glock, it points better, and shoots better.
christcorp
May 17, 2010, 01:06 PM
MTS: Sorry, but I can't say it enough times. Using the: Local police, DEA, FBI, Military, Boy Scouts, or whoever; isn't a good defense when trying to sell people on a glock. Those agencies have financial rules in place that force them to buy certain things. They have a bidding process. Glocks, will ALWAYS be cheaper than HK and Sig, and many S&W and Springfields. That's just the way it is, based on their materials used. And because they will always be cheaper, they will always win many different contracts. But if you look at the agencies that give their officers cash, and allow them to buy whatever they want, you'll find that Glocks aren't as popular as you think they are. Yes, they are reliable and dependable guns. You'll never read where I said otherwise. But they aren't BETTER than a number of other guns. There's just more used in your police, leo, fbi, military, etc... examples because of cost; not quality. I know of 3 LE departments; 2 city and 1 county; where they ISSUED Glocks to their officers. Because of a low turnover of officers, 2 years in a row, they offered incoming officers a flat rate of money to put towards any gun they wanted. 7 officers that I KNOW PERSONALLY, and not one of them took the money and bought a glock. 3 Bought Sig, 2 Bought HK, and 2 bought S&W M&P.
FreakGasolineFight
May 17, 2010, 01:16 PM
There are about five other guns I'd vote "The Best Handgun in the World" before I'd vote for the G19.
ScottRiqui
May 17, 2010, 01:21 PM
I agree that I wouldn't call the G19 the "best pistol in the world", but it might just be the best Glock. I don't know of any other Glock model that's given more people a positive introduction to the brand - it's almost like the "Ambassador from the Kingdom of Glock"!
LOUcifer
May 17, 2010, 01:38 PM
Everybody has a preference and most people choose to own Glock and some are smart enough to not :)
LOL...I have nothing against a "Block" function wise...but I do however have an issue with how the Block feels and looks...looks like arse and does not fit my hand at all.
but to others it's the best thing since sliced bread...to each his own...however not my cup of tea or coffee or juice :)
M&P is MY poison :cool:
IanS
May 17, 2010, 01:58 PM
Its easy to explain away and dismiss Glock's popularity as a LEO issued weapon solely on price and agressive marketing. But I think its short sighted to say the only reason they're popular is because they're merely inexpensive and reliable. There have been lots of other "cheap and reliable" polymer pistols since Glock's introduction to the U.S. in the mid-80's. If that formula was that simple to replicate Glock wouldn't be nearly as dominating as they are to this day. They're not "Perfect" but they still have more going for them then their competitors so you gotta look at more than the fact they go Bang! when you pull the trigger. Dominating the LEO market doesn't happen by accident, its not easy (ask their competitors) and they haven't done it by fooling people into believing something that isn't there.
Oh, the S&W M&P? S&W is smart to take Glocks playbook and give aggresive trade in incentives for police dept's for their new polymer Glock-like gun. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. If it happens it happens. But it hasn't. They gotta earn that trust.
And I've met plenty of LEO's who are shooting enthusiasts (being LEO/Military doesn't make you an expert) from LAPD, LASO, to FBI SWAT who wouldn't trade their Glocks for anything else. And I've met others who prefer other handguns too. They're all individuals just like us.
Uncle Malice
May 17, 2010, 02:51 PM
If it happens it happens. But it hasn't.
Just to give credit where credit is due, there are quite a lot of rather large LE departments that have moved to M&P from the Glock. Certainly, Glock still has a much larger market share, but why wouldn't they? They're over 20 years old. For a pistol released less than 5 years ago, the M&P is gaining some pretty impressive ground.
As of 6 months ago, over 500 PD's have switched to M&P's
Milwaukee, WI
Tampa, FL
Rockford, IL
Detroit, MI
Worcester, MA
etc..
crimsondave
May 17, 2010, 03:13 PM
MTS: Sorry, but I can't say it enough times. Using the: Local police, DEA, FBI, Military, Boy Scouts, or whoever; isn't a good defense when trying to sell people on a glock. Those agencies have financial rules in place that force them to buy certain things. They have a bidding process. Glocks, will ALWAYS be cheaper than HK and Sig, and many S&W and Springfields. That's just the way it is, based on their materials used. And because they will always be cheaper, they will always win many different contracts. But if you look at the agencies that give their officers cash, and allow them to buy whatever they want, you'll find that Glocks aren't as popular as you think they are. Yes, they are reliable and dependable guns. You'll never read where I said otherwise. But they aren't BETTER than a number of other guns. There's just more used in your police, leo, fbi, military, etc... examples because of cost; not quality. I know of 3 LE departments; 2 city and 1 county; where they ISSUED Glocks to their officers. Because of a low turnover of officers, 2 years in a row, they offered incoming officers a flat rate of money to put towards any gun they wanted. 7 officers that I KNOW PERSONALLY, and not one of them took the money and bought a glock. 3 Bought Sig, 2 Bought HK, and 2 bought S&W M&P.
Just give it up. I did. Not worth it.
BUT fyi...I also know a number of POs myself who bought their own pistols. Only one bought a Glock and he traded for a Sig 229.
458winshooter
May 17, 2010, 03:58 PM
I am in the same boat as you were I didn't care for them either.I don't hate them just don't fancy them either.I tried one once and it just didn't feel right.But lately I have found that as I get older my feel for things change so maybe its time I try one again.Who knows maybe there is a little black beauty in my future to.Hope she gets along with my P-89 and German Luger.Judging by some of these pics,some of you "Glockaholics" may need to consider getting some professional help!!!
aarondhgraham
May 17, 2010, 04:11 PM
Okay okay,,,
I'm just teasing you guys.
Glocks are fine and dandy fieryarms,,,
I simply couldn't allow one more pro Glock thread,,,
Without some small break and some attempt at comedy relief. ;)
I mean guys,,,
It was getting all mushy here.
I'm not a Glock hater,,
I'm a dyed in the wool revolver man. :D
IanS
May 17, 2010, 04:11 PM
More FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has been spread about Glocks than any other handgun. Even before the internet became popular and even before the term FUD was even invented. It was a lot worse back when most people were revolted just by the idea of a polymer frame handgun. Talk about a gun that has and continues to be resisted even after its general acceptance by the shooting public at large. Glock is the perpetual Outsider.
Glock is still the whipping boy for all guns plastic while everything else seems to get a pass. Its the King of the Mountain so of course like Apple or Toyota there are lots of people who have an interest in taking them down. For others its just a game or a challenge.
Almost every year there seems to be some new polymer pistol that people proclaim to be the new "Glock killer". Wake me when it actually happens.
Glock bashing threads have little to no effect on the publics perception and buying habits at large. These internet gun boards are read by very very few and the few that do take them seriously are the ones posting. It speaks more to our narcissism and the self importance we give our opinions believing we're gonna shape public opinion.
And apologies to the OP. He just wanted to share his enthusiasm for his Glock and instead he gets this....
Chris_B
May 17, 2010, 07:24 PM
It speaks more to our narcissism and the self importance we give our opinions believing we're gonna shape public opinion.
I was sorta-kinda with you until this. I think you've missed the mark on motivational impetus. I don't believe I'm gonna shape public opinion
Firstly I'm arrogant enough to believe public opinion is necessarily based on public perception- and cynical enough to believe that's the same as public misconception, while honest enough to admit that I think most people believe the first things they hear on a subject
Secondly I'm not egotistical enough to need to try to bend others to my conclusions just because I'm the one who came up with them! I could be...brace yourself...wrong once in a while :D I know that's not a common thing to read online...
christcorp
May 17, 2010, 07:49 PM
Ian; I've spent more than 25 years in the government. Federal and State. I've written plenty of contracts and requested many bids. When the government sets up their requirements, and sends them out for bid, all interested parties give a quote. And they must be able to provide every requirement or they don't bid. Obviously, the requirements of a firearm are not that complicated. After all, a firearm isn't that complicated. Now, unless the government has a very specific reason, that they have documented, for why they won't use the quote with the lowest bid, they WILL TAKE THEM. And that is the MAIN reason Glock is so popular among LE agencies. On average, the Glock is about $300 cheaper than an HK or a Sig.
Again, I am not saying that glocks are bad. They aren't the gun I would ever own, but that's not because of reliability or dependability. My choice is strictly off of ergonomics and trigger. (No, I don't do trigger jobs. If it isn't the way I want it when I buy it, then I don't buy it). So you're not going to hear me say that glocks are bad, junk, or any other negative thing. Other than my personal preference. But in the same breath, I won't stand buy and let noob's be conned into believing that because so many LE type agencies have glocks, that they MUST be the best gun out there overall. They aren't. Even grouped in a lump sum, and discounting that each individual person is different and has different likes/dislikes; the glock is definitely not "The Best". At least not in my experience and that of many who have glocks. Do they like them? Yes. Are they dependable? Yes. But MANY of the people I know who have glocks freely admit that they want a quality gun, but they really didn't want to pay the difference to get an HK, Sig, Certain S&W, Kimber, or some other guns. Again, glocks are good guns. I just think it's wrong to mislead people into believing that all the government type LE agencies picked Glock over the others because Glock was the better gun. They didn't. They picked glock, because when you are buying 1000 guns, $300,000 difference in the price is very significant. Even for a small county or town that is only buying 100 pistols, $30,000 can be a lot of money. And for the individual, it's a lot easier to shell out an extra $300 for a Sig or HK, then it is for a sheriff's department to shell out an extra $30,000. Or for a federal agency buying 1000 over a 2 year period to spend an extra $300,000.
IanS
May 17, 2010, 08:12 PM
christcorp,
No doubt low bid is a very common state of affairs for Gov't contracts. So is waste. So are contract due to political influence. So are vanity projects. So is a certain cultural mindset within an organization. Whether its a pair of shoes, patrol car, or maybe even the Osprey. I can't explain why Delta Force carries $500 Glock 22's and FBI HRT/SWAT get $2000 1911 pistols. Most people can't. Not really. What works works for their organization and their mission and anything else is pure speculation.
There are a variety of reasons and explanations why someone chooses a Glock. Sometimes good sometimes bad. One can pick and choose based on prejudice but Glocks are respected and well liked from everyone from newbs to some of the best, most knowledgeable, and experienced in the art of modern pistolcraft. There is no respected and well known handgun instructor that I've heard of who would dismiss Glocks the way they are on the internet. From Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, John Farnum, to Louis Awerbuck. (Anyone who scoffs at their names should read up on them and go beyond the narrow influence of their local handgun clique).
I dont' think everyone should choose a Glock. Just like not everyone should choose a Beretta 92FS back in the 80's and early 90's when they were popular. Or a S&W M&P revolver from the 50's to the 70's when it was the standard. There are a lot of things one should consider when choosing a personal handgun. But when a newbie goes into a gunshop and asks for a popular handgun its not such a bad thing. They're getting a good reliable handgun and they can make their choice to stay with it or go with something else later on. Its not a big deal.
brockgl
May 17, 2010, 08:28 PM
Again, glocks are good guns. I just think it's wrong to mislead people into believing that all the government type LE agencies picked Glock over the others because Glock was the better gun. They didn't.
I'm not sure who you are talking to. Or who anyone who has stated this same thing is talking to in this thread. I haven't seen 1 person in this thread say that Glocks are good because police use them.
In fact, part of the reason I WOULDN'T purchase one for the longest time was because they are so commonly used by police. I didn't want to have the same gun that so many police carry.
I couldn't care less what a cop carries or thinks is good. Most of the cops I know aren't gun aficionados, and really just take what they are issued or given the best price on. And the fact that cops use them has nothing to do with the fact that I am loving my new G19.
Did I not preface my post by saying that I own many other high end firearms? I own a Springer TRP, Springer Mil-Spec, Colt 1991A1, Sig P229 .40, Walther P99, S&W 686, S&W 66, Ruger SP-101 3", S&W 642, and a lot more that I don't need to mention. I have also owned a duo-tone HK USP .40 which was a jam-o-matic, so I traded it in.
I love every gun that I listed, however this Glock 19 is fitting a niche as a carry gun that none of them can match. It is chambered in a sufficiently powerful round, has an excellent capacity, is small and VERY comfortable to carry, and it is amazingly light. I have been carrying it IWB non-stop since I bought it. It's so light that I can carry it in an Uncle Mikes holster inside the waistband of my gym shorts--no belt required!
Lol, I have no problem with all the Glock bashing. I use to participate in the same ignorance.
All that means is that this gun remains a well-kept secret (it's a secret that was hidden from me for over a decade), and that's fine with me now that I'm in on it.
stephen426
May 17, 2010, 10:47 PM
My first gun was a Sig P228 and I was a Sig snob for a while. I loved how the P228 was so well balanced and how clean the trigger broke in single action. I loved how the Sig looked and how good it felt in my hand. Then I got old enough to get my carry permit and tried carrying it. I was 5'7" and about 140 lbs. In south Florida, it is very difficult to conceal a gun that size without resorting to the obvious accesories (fanny packs and vests). Walking around with my shirt out is not my style and even then, the gun can print through a shirt.
I ended up getting a Glock 26. While it is not as pretty as the Sig and the trigger is not as nice as the Sig, it is very reliable, holds up incredible well against the elements, and is much easier to conceal than the Sig. An unexpected bonus was the Glock Safe Action Trigger. The Sig was a double action to single action gun which made it difficult to shoot accurately on the first shot. The Glock's consistent, light trigger pull enabled me to get on target with the first shot much faster than the Sig P228.
Fast forward about 6 years, I have since added a Kahr PM9 as my daily carry gun. While I lose 6 rounds of ammo, it is considerably smaller and thinner than the Glock 26. It has a long light trigger pull, similar to that of light double action only triggers. It is highly accurate for such a small gun and has been very reliable.
christcorp
May 17, 2010, 11:04 PM
Brock; you must read more often. One of the biggest selling arguments among glock owners when discussing/debating is: All the LE officers that use them.
In this thread alone, and not counting my threads where I discuss government contracts as being the biggest reason glocks are bought by LE agencies; if you look in this thread at posts 29 and 36 you will see both cases LE agencies were used as an "Endorsement" by the posters for the glock. And if you think in any way that I am glock bashing, then you're the one with the Attitude problem. I haven't said one negative thing about a glock, other than my own personal preferences against the trigger and the ergonomics. But that's just me. For others, it might be fine. To be honest, I don't know where you're coming from.
And yes Ian, there are a lot of reasons contracts are given out as they are. From price to corruption. But I've written enough contracts and have spoken to enough agencies who buy weapons, to tell you that it's not just speculation. Not the opinion I am giving you. Unfortunately, you are taking my posts and comments as NEGATIVES against glock. Stop taking it so personal and read what I've written and not what you want it to say. I will say it 1 more time: There is absolutely nothing wrong with glocks. They are reliable and dependable. And there are plenty of reasons a person might want to buy one.
My point is: Don't buy a glock because you have the attitude of: "If it's good enough for police, FBI, and the Military, it must be a great gun". That position is wrong. Yes, the glock meets the requirements set forth by the government agency buying them. If they hadn't, they wouldn't have bought them. But they didn't choose the glock because it was in any way a better gun. As far as most agencies who do the bidding process goes, if all companies bidding all meet the same requirements, then they consider all bidding companies to be equal. And thus, they choose the one with the lowest price. There's nothing wrong with this. Just that is doesn't mean that what they chose was the best. Just that it met their requirements and it was the least expensive. That isn't that hard to understand.
IanS
May 18, 2010, 01:03 AM
christcorp,
Don't buy a glock because you have the attitude of: "If it's good enough for police, FBI, and the Military, it must be a great gun". That position is wrong.
I agree to a point. But I don't think that's necessarily exactly what some people are thinking. Sometimes its more like "If its good enough for police, FBI, and Military, it must be pretty decent. There must be something to them. I'll give them a try". I don't think there's anything wrong with that esp. for someone who may be new to handguns. That was the point of my previous post.
Sometimes people choose a gun based on trivial reasons, sometimes based on pure assumptions, and sometimes for the right reasons. Not just Glocks but all the others as well. Isn't this what goes on in these forums? "Oh, I can't shoot a Glock well, Glocks don't feel comfortable for me, Glocks have the 'wrong' grip angle, Glocks are for people who can't afford anything better or don't know any better, so that means my narrow experience and perception will be the same as yours." That goes on a lot and that position is just as WRONG. There are handguns that didn't quite agree with me but I wouldn't assume that my experience would be the same as others. I am fatigued by all the kneee jerk Glock bashing that constantly goes on. Put 'Glock' in a thread title and there's usually a group of people who circle around the thread like sharks. Its almost impossible to have a semi-calm intelligent discussion about them. And I think everyone's the poorer for it.
mes228
May 18, 2010, 06:51 AM
There are plenty of pistols I "like" better. I much prefer blue steel and walnut on firearms. I shoot 1911's at the range because I'm more accurate with them and love the trigger. My favorite pistol is my Les Baer Monolith Heavy. Yet I carry a Glock Model 23. Why would I do that? I've owned 3 HK's, perhaps 15 or more Sigs. God alone knows how many Colts, Beretta"s, Browning's, Smith's, etc. etc. I've owned. I trade personal firearms a lot, it really is a sickness and will make a poor man out of you. In my opinion, no one has made a pistol for self defense and carry that is "better" in the whole realm of what's needed in a carry pistol than a Glock Model 23 .40 cal. They are small & concealable, light, none more reliable, accurate, extremely durable, "quick" to use, great combat sights, show less wear than any other pistol I know, high capacity (16 rounds if Model 22 mags used - that's two 1911's and then some), holds their value, need nothing after market to make them "right", mags are not expensive, holsters available anywhere, and they cost almost nothing in comparison to other pistols. Hardly more than a Taurus. You hear all the time about Glock "perfection" and they are not. The triggers are hard to adapt to for one negative. Even with that, the Model 23 and 19 are old designs now and I know of no manufacturer that has even come close. That includes Sig and HK. Just my opinion but it's based own owning the pistols and comparing them and thinking about it. The best buy in the "pistol world" is still the $475 Glock.
http://i339.photobucket.com/albums/n443/thorm001/Kaboom%20pics/SaddamGlock.jpg
kokopelli
May 18, 2010, 07:39 AM
...the novelty will wear off, and when it does, you will be left with a plastic, generic, soul-less gun that, yes, will go bang every time, but is oh so boring. and ugly. :D
fightingbard
May 18, 2010, 08:19 AM
First of all, I have to say that my experience with handguns is nowhere near most of the members of this forum. I shot maybe 20 different handguns, and a few thousand rounds. However I want to say quite a few things about the subject, mainly because more or less I have been through the same path.
Although I consider myself a “gun enthusiast”, I especially like guns that have a certain history. I admire beauty and fine craftsmanship. I have always been a BHP, 1911, old school blued revolver kind of guy. However in a few weeks, "I will buy a Glock" (19 or 26-which one at the moment I still could not figure it out)
And yes, "I hated glocks" too.
Nowadays I got myself thinking, "now I understand why people say, 'resistance is futile'". And I will try to explain my understanding of the sentence, in the quickest way possible.
I am guessing that there is no need to argue on the reliability issue, right..:)
Go bang all the time, no..?
The finish...
Magazine interchangeability...
Price...
Available options..
When all elements are considered, it seems buying a glock is the "wise thing" to do. At least my mind tells me so.
Yes, I don't like the grip angle. I don't know if I will ever get comfortable with it (but I will try)
Yes, it is plain ugly (or one might say, it seems "soulless")
But, (and maybe for the first time in my history with pistols) I will not follow my heart, but my mind... :D
They work, they work well. They are not expensive. All things considered, at the end, it is a tool.
It is a considerably big change in my perception of handguns too. So I thought I should share.
Thanks for reading
All the best.
brockgl
May 18, 2010, 09:18 AM
kokopelli:
...the novelty will wear off, and when it does, you will be left with a plastic, generic, soul-less gun that, yes, will go bang every time, but is oh so boring. and ugly.
Well that's just it. The fact that the Glock is so functional and so lacking in "form" when compared to pretty much all the other guns I own, means there is no "novelty" to wear off. I don't like or appreciate this gun because of a novelty. Whereas I can't say the same for some of my prettier guns.
This is why you'll hear many stories of people who own TONS of beautiful guns, yet their Glocks are their primary carry pistols. This isn't because Glock is better than their 1911's or Sigs; it's because Glock's very functional, very easy to carry, and reliable. As someone once said, Glock is the ugly girl you bring home who ends up blowing your mind, because she will do anything to make you happy.
FreakGasolineFight
May 18, 2010, 10:50 AM
Glocks are junk...you don't see the pros use them, only peeps walking into gunstores asking 'hey which gun should I buy?'
I hate Glocks too, but that's just silly. I mean, come on, really. Plastic? Yes. Ugly? Yes. Designed without a functional safety? Yes. Known to kb occasionally? Yes. Junk? Not so much.
...the novelty will wear off, and when it does, you will be left with a plastic, generic, soul-less gun that, yes, will go bang every time, but is oh so boring. and ugly.
Yes, well, that's the truth right there.
The funny thing is, while I don't like Glocks, I keep being tempted by them. It's weird. I kind of want one, until I actually hold or fire one. I've gone into my local gun shop before and asked to hold the G17, because it's rugged and manly and o-so-reliable, and then when I actually have it in my hand I realize that it's exactly the graceless, chunky, unrefined weapon that I've grown to dislike. I've gone out shooting with my buddy, who has a Glock 22, and I'm all excited to let loose with a few rounds from the Glock, but as soon as I actually do I realize that's it's about the most monumentally unthrilling experience ever, and I set the Glock down and pick up my CZ again.
Guess it's something I'll never get over.
IanS
May 18, 2010, 11:39 AM
There is no such thing as boring guns. Just boring shooters.
And the short trigger reset on Glocks definately is not boring. See how fast and accurate they can be and that's where Glocks are in their natural element. A case of ammo and a Glock 34 is a great way to spend the afternoon.:cool: Try it sometime.
Head-Space
May 18, 2010, 11:43 AM
Yeah, well --
Some guys go for brassy blondes with big hooters. :eek:
ElectricHellfire
May 18, 2010, 11:50 AM
Fellow convert and ex-hater here. Glocks are about all I carry now.
LUPUS
May 18, 2010, 03:58 PM
And the short trigger reset on Glocks definately is not boring. That is what I also like the most on Glocks...
MTS840
May 18, 2010, 05:31 PM
This is why you'll hear many stories of people who own TONS of beautiful guns, yet their Glocks are their primary carry pistols. This isn't because Glock is better than their 1911's or Sigs; it's because Glock's very functional, very easy to carry, and reliable.
I've heard that a lot too. And that's all I'm saying about them. They're functional, dependable and not as expensive as other makes. For me and a lot of other people around the world, they work.
If they ever stop working for me, I'll use something else. To me, the whole point of having a defensive firearm in the first place is to protect oneself. If Glocks become unreliable for me, I'll gladly take something else I'm familiar with, such as Berettas, Sigs, HKs or Smith and Wessons. Who cares what company made it as long as it works?
But in my opinion and based upon nothing but my own experience, with proper maintenance Glocks are as good as it gets. Sure, every company produces a real lemon every now and then. Glock is no different.
I think some gun owners look at guns like they would a shovel. Simple and utilitarian. It works, but it's not exactly an object that stirs passion in the heart as pride of ownership. You grab it, use it and then put it up until the next time you need it. I'm glad somebody actually incorporated human nature into the design of their gun. Simple and intuitive. Saves money on training time.
Other people take great pride in their fancy, high priced heirlooms. The fit and finish of these guns are exquisite and it has a price to match. They like the pearl grips, the fancy engraving, or the "name status" of the gunsmith who worked on it.
Nothing wrong with either camp, but to me, if a defensive handgun is not reliable under adverse conditions and is not comfortable to carry day in and day out, I have no use for it. I don't care if it gets scratched, scuffed up or dropped in sand or a mudhole. When I grab it, it has to work.
It's sort of like an old, beat up pickup that starts every time and does what you want it to, even if it does get the "lowest bid" award.
I've owned Sigs, and my own department issues the SigPro/Sig 2022. I've personally owned HK USPs. I've never had the slightest problem from Berettas, Smiths, Sigs or HKs. But I honestly don't see how somebody thinks they are better than Glocks, but if you want to believe that, knock yourself out. Doesn't bother me a bit.
I'm not trying to make the case that Glocks are the best pistol ever made. Some people like them, some don't. What I am saying is that the best gun in the world is the one that works for you when you need it.
And just like thousands of law enforcement officers in the US and many police and military units around the world, when it comes to my own personal choice for a defensive handgun, I choose Glock.
IanS
May 18, 2010, 06:10 PM
True lasting appreciation for a weapon can only come with time and developing a relationship with it. Anything else tend to be shallow but intense feelings that fade with time, are easily replaced, or most likely to be sold to the highest bidder.
The bluest most beautiful finish, the most beautiful lines, hand fitting, the nicest woods can become more an object of fetish than a tool. A slippery slope. Some have this fetishistic attitude to even the most pedestrian mass produced SIGs, Beretta, HK, 1911's, and yes, even Glocks.
For a weapon the question should always come down to, "If you are fighting for your life what (pistol) would you want to fight with?" For many in this thread its a Glock. Its that simple.
sdj
May 18, 2010, 07:26 PM
For a weapon the question should always come down to, "If you are fighting for your life what (pistol) would you want to fight with?"
An excellent point and one that frames what is for me an important part of pistol ownership and pistol-craft. With what would I want to defend myself in a do or die situation?
christcorp
May 18, 2010, 10:29 PM
Of all the guns that I've ever owned; "More than 100"; the only gun I've ever had that I would never under any circumstances get rid of, would be my Sig P220 45acp. For financial reasons, or a number of other reasons, I could see myself selling any other gun I have. Including classics like my M1 Garand, Old Style Springfield 1911A1, or anything else. But when it comes to what do I have the most faith in; will shoot anything I can thing of feeding it; and it couldn't malfunction if I tried; it will always be my Sig P220. That might not be the right answer for everyone or anyone else, but if I was fighting for my life, there is no question that would definitely be the handgun I would keep.
Ridge_Runner_5
May 19, 2010, 12:04 AM
My conceal carry weapon:D
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/Shooting/DSC_0005.jpg
ScottRiqui
May 19, 2010, 12:05 AM
Well, if you're not quite ready to shoot someone, you can always beat them about the head and shoulders with the loaded magazine!
Bamashooter
May 19, 2010, 12:13 AM
i hate glocks with a passion but i dont see a need to come on here and say a bunch of hateful stuff about them and their owners. if you dont like them dont buy them. :D
IanS
May 19, 2010, 02:17 AM
i hate glocks with a passion but i dont see a need to come on here and say a bunch of hateful stuff about them and their owners. if you dont like them dont buy them.
Wish there were more like you and just it leave at that. Though I'll never understand the "hate" and the intensity of it.
Warchild
May 19, 2010, 09:25 AM
And that is the MAIN reason Glock is so popular among LE agencies. On average, the Glock is about $300 cheaper than an HK or a Sig.
So by your logic, more expensive means better? I'm going to have to disagree with you hear. Currently possess an HK, have shot several Sigs, and none of them have compared to my Glocks. Again, this is just me, and my experience having worked as an LEO.
christcorp
May 19, 2010, 11:08 AM
So by your logic, more expensive means better? I'm going to have to disagree with you hear. Currently possess an HK, have shot several Sigs, and none of them have compared to my Glocks. Again, this is just me, and my experience having worked as an LEO.
Not saying this at all. What I'm saying is: The Sig or HK "COULD" be better. BUT, because the glock happens to meet all of the requirements put out in the bid request, and they were the least expensive bid, they were the choice.
And to qualify a bit differently; if the glock was say $100 more expensive than the Sig, "Whatever that price might be", they would choose the Sig if they too met all the requirements. That wouldn't make the Sig a Better pistol, just the one that had the lowest bid.
And that is/was my total point. If you WANT/LIKE a glock; then by all means buy it. If you WANT/LIKE the Sig or HK, then by all means buy it. Just don't use the "Common" argument of: "Well, if it's good enough for law enforcement, it's good enough for me". Or any other means of using Law Enforcement as an endorsement. They didn't buy the gun because it was the "BEST". And "BEST" is relative to the purpose and the person using it.
Warchild
May 19, 2010, 11:44 AM
Could it be possible that they not only found the Glock to be cheaper, but also better than HK or Sig, much like I did?
IanS
May 19, 2010, 11:55 AM
I think maybe we should leave out words like "better" or "best" because its always subjective. Maybe "preferred" would be better for our discussion. There are lots of handguns that go bang for around the same price point as Glock but the majority of U.S. LEO organizations are still preferring the Glock system or sticking with the Glock system for multiple reasons, meeting a certain price point being one important consideration.
When Bratton came to the LAPD to be Chief he got every new officer coming out the Academy to start carrying Glocks. Today, the vast majority of LAPD officers carry Glocks even those who could have grandfathered in their Beretta 92's or S&W 4506's. You could accuse him of being in bed with Glock and got a sweetheart deal. Or maybe he simply liked the way they worked for the NYPD when he was over there. One thing for sure I cannot claim to know for sure exactly why. And no one else here can either. On the same token I don't know exactly why the California Highway Patrol chose the S&W 4006TSW's over other .40 S&W's including Glock. I don't know exactly why Santa Monica PD chose HK USP's and HK P30/HK45's over say SIG Sauer . It just is.
christcorp
May 19, 2010, 02:55 PM
Could it be possible that they not only found the Glock to be cheaper, but also better than HK or Sig, much like I did?
warchild; that isn't usually how the bidding process works. The customer; e.g. sheriff's department; researches different products and finds the products that meet their requirements. They then put out an "RFQ" "Request for Quote" on their products that meet their requirements. At this point, they are basically saying that ALL of the vendors bidding have equally satisfactory products. They all meet their requirements. They don't consider which one is better or worse. The quote now is simply whoever is the lowest price, wins. If they don't know which product can do what, they list their requirements and presents them to numerous vendors who in turn sends back a quote of the products they have that meet the requirements; along with the price.
Most agencies who use the bidding process, require a minimum of 3 bids. In my example, either the agencies determined that "X" amount of vendors had a satisfactory product and they asked for the quotes; and will take the lowest price. OR, they don't know who has what, send out their requirements and request for quote, then when the vendors send in their list of products/prices that match the requirements; the agency breaks them down to ensure they meet their requirement. They then choose the least expensive.
This is the normal process. It is sometimes a PITA. And some times very time consuming. But when you are dealing with tax dollars, the different government agencies that distribute your budget, requires that you use this process. They want the best bang for the buck. For local agencies, they even provide preference points for local/in state vendors vs out of state vendors. (Not a real consideration in the firearms bidding. Not like there's a gun manufacturer in each state).
Most people believe that some person sits at their desk and says: Hmmmm, I think our sheriff, police, military, FBI, or whatever agency; should have THIS WEAPON. Let me call them and order 200 of them. Sorry, NONE of them operate that way. Especially being tax dollars are used.
But let me reiterate that as others have mentioned, BEST, BETTER, etc... are subjective words. If you say you want a glock because it's the "Best Bang for the Buck" as demonstrated by many law enforcement type agencies buying them. That would be an accurate statement. If you said that you want a glock because it's a "Better Quality pistol compared to most others" as demonstrated by many law enforcement type agencies buying them. That would be a totally INaccurate statement.
But as an individual, you aren't hindered by tax dollars and such laws. You can buy whatever you want. If you want the glock, for whatever reason, you can buy it. If you prefer the Sig and are willing to pay the extra $200-$300 for it; you are free to do that. The average LE officer is not free to do that. They will take what they are issued and that's the end of the discussion. Some agencies allow officers to buy their own; most don't. The BEST what to determine how good glocks are, is to simply ask the officers in a particular agency who all have glocks, if they were allowed to have the gun of their choice instead of what was issued; would they choose the gun that was issued or a different one. You might be surprised at the answer you get. Maybe you won't be surprised. Obviously you have to ask a large enough sample.
Warchild
May 19, 2010, 03:33 PM
So what are you really trying to say?...........:confused::D
Glock is the best, much better than HK and Sig. See what I did there?! Used both subjective words in one sentence! That's like so much awesome in one sentence they cancel each other out.
IanS
May 19, 2010, 04:20 PM
As far as "better" and "best" it is all relative. It'll take a quantum leap in handgun technology for anyone to honestly claim any one handgun will give anyone an appreciable advantage over anything that exists today. There's a reason why the 1911 and the DA revolver are still viable choices today and why it would be foolish to underestimate anyone who carries one.
The BEST what to determine how good glocks are, is to simply ask the officers in a particular agency who all have glocks, if they were allowed to have the gun of their choice instead of what was issued; would they choose the gun that was issued or a different one. You might be surprised at the answer you get. Maybe you won't be surprised. Obviously you have to ask a large enough sample.
I wouldn't give much credence to that whether the sample was large or small. Fact is many police officers are not necessarily firearms enthusiasts and have to be encouraged to shoot beyond qualifications. They can be just as cliquish and narrow minded as civilians in regards to firearms as well. To many its just another piece of equipment like their duty belt or laptop. LEO's may have certain training that is not privy to the avg. citizen but the avg. citizen can also go to some very good schools that will give them training above and beyond what a Department mandates as well.
But I don't think we should look down on people who are new to firearms who look to their local police Dept or the Navy SEAL's for ideas about what to choose. They may be wrong to assume its the "best" but at least it is a sidearm that has been vetted and documented on the streets or the mountains of Afghanistan. Their performance is knoweable to some degree instead of asking around getting various opinions and becoming even more confused. It is a reasonable way for a newbie to go about choosing their first sidearm.
Bulldawg55
May 19, 2010, 06:41 PM
I never hated Glocks ,but did think they were blocky!
Absolutely no problem with the grip angle.
The trigger is not great but easy to get used to.
Got aG17 just to have a Glock.
I now have a G17,G20,G32 & G33
The wide grip gives me more to hang onto and more rounds to deliver (comfortable and comforting)!
When I see my Glocks I see Their inner beauty so they look Great to me!
My G33 is my main summer carry.
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/npjr55/IMG_0450-1.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/npjr55/IMG_0449-Copy.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/npjr55/IMG_0448-Copy.jpg
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy284/npjr55/P1100657-Copy.jpg
varoadking
May 19, 2010, 07:33 PM
Currently possess an HK, have shot several Sigs, and none of them have compared to my Glocks.
More evidence that it's the Indian and not the arrow...
I have 6 Glocks, 6 HK's and 4 SiG's...and have had many more of each...
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
christcorp
May 19, 2010, 07:42 PM
Ian; I don't think you get it. It doesn't matter if the entire U.S. Military uses glocks or not. The glock might not be the "best" pistol for you, me, or whomever. On the other hand, it very well could be. There are plenty of "Quality" pistols out there to choose from. And only the individual can decide for themselves. The problem is: Most people don't do enough research as to what's the best gun "For Them". Instead, they take the advice of people on the forums, or they look at what the police officers and such are using. Granted, most people don't have the luxury to try out each pistol. But they do have the opportunity to walk into a gun store and hold, chamber, and feel out a pistol. And as long as they are choosing from guns that are on the unofficial list of "Quality" guns; e.g. S&W, Glock, Sig, HK, Springfield Armory, etc... (Which they can easily determine on the internet); then there's no reason that they can't find a quality gun that is right for them.
Unfortunately, they hear comments from people like certain guns aren't that good. Or this is the gun you should have. Or anecdotal endorsement like; it's used by so many LE agencies. Or it's the original tried and true. Point is; people should be choosing what's best for them. And there are plenty of people who have bought guns who have "Settled" for them and rationalized what they don't like about them, all because someone, some forum, some other agency, recommends them. Even though they are not the right gun for them. But they own it anyway. I personally love my Sig more than any other gun I have or have ever owned. But I'm the first to admit that it is not the best gun for everyone. My mom for instance. The best gun for her; because she had the advantage of trying many different guns and styles, is the Walther PPK in 32acp. And I guarantee you that at 10 yards, she can out shoot many members of this forum. And that's at age 67. That's the gun she chose as best for her, many years ago, and she practices with it a lot. At 4'9", she never could warm up to my Sig, Kimber, or Springfield 1911A1.
So anyone who says: "This is the gun you should get" to another person, is a complete moron and doesn't know a thing about guns. And anyone who buys a gun based on what others say they should, or because the police use it, is also a moron for caring more about what others think instead of what is best "FOR THEM". For some people, the Sig is the "BEST". For others, it's a Springfield XD. For someone else, it's a glock. And for many, they should even be looking at revolvers and not even semi-autos. Then again, there's people all around who say you just have to have those hi-cap magazines; and you've got to be able to reload really fast. You never know when those zombies are coming.
And yes, this is a pet peeve of mine. People who buy guns based on a name. Are there a few guns that a person should stay away from if they are a novice or they only own 1 gun and are trying to find a good "All around" gun? Yes there are. But there are a lot more quality guns out there. people should be encouraged to feel out and if possible shoot as many guns as possible. And then encourage them to choose what's best for them.
Sorry, but the Glock is NOT the BEST pistol in the world. Not for everyone. Then again, neither is the Sig, HK, or any other pistol. Then again, it is people's money. They are allowed to buy whatever they want. Whether it's the best for them or not. The bill of rights give us the right to do a lot of things. And while not written specifically, it is implied that people also have the right to be lemmings and make choices based on what others think.
brockgl
May 19, 2010, 07:43 PM
"A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands... "
Now that's a load if I've ever seen one.
IanS
May 19, 2010, 07:44 PM
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
Yeah, I believe that. Slightly more accurate for target shooting. Larry Vickers has said Glocks are slightly less accurate due to their generous chambers which helps them be so reliable. But in a defensive handgun course that slight difference in accuracy becomes nominal to irrelevant where movement, fatigue, stress, and less than ideal circumstance come into play. These are service pistols. Their main purpose is not for trying to make tiny groups on paper at a public range with perfect stance, controlled breathing and 1 shot allowed per second. Unfortunately, this is what most people are limited to at most ranges. The main purpose of any service pistol is to help facilitate the shooter to make fast and accurate hits under stress and the Glock takes a back seat to none in that department IMHO. This is where Glocks actually excels and how the short trigger reset and actually the grip angle shows its advantages.
As my instructors have said. If your groups are too tight shoot faster. If your groups are larger than your hand/fist slow down.
brockgl
May 19, 2010, 07:48 PM
If you asked every police officer that is issued a Glock if they would prefer to have a different pistol, my guess is that most of them would say yes. And this has nothing to do with the fact that they're Glocks aren't amazing pistols, but rather that they have been forced to used that particular gun for so long just about anyone would choose something else merely for a change of pace.
If you were forced to eat the most magnificent crème brûlée every day for desert, and after a year of eating that someone offered you a Twinky instead, you'd probably take the Twinky with a smile!
brockgl
May 19, 2010, 08:01 PM
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
I've only had my Glock now for a week and a day, and this target is from my range trip this afternoon. Seems like a pretty accurate gun to me.
Glock 19 from 12 yards--standing, no bench:
http://www.bglz.net/images/glock/g19_target2.jpg
My P229 .40 is damn accurate, but I was consciously widening the hole on this target with my Glock with ease. Yes, I did do the .25 cent trigger job on it, but the trigger has been easy to learn nonetheless. I've put 700 flawless rounds through this G19 in the week I've owned it, and it has earned the #1 spot in my carry lineup.
MTS840
May 19, 2010, 09:25 PM
If you asked every police officer that is issued a Glock if they would prefer to have a different pistol, my guess is that most of them would say yes.
Most of the police officers I know of couldn't care less what gun they carry. As long as it's reliable, simple to operate and they can qualify with it, they're happy. They don't care who made it.
Most of them are not 'gun people.' Many of them neglect or sometimes even accidentally damage their weapons sometimes. They don't mean to, but it happens.
I'm one of the weird ones then. I'm issued a .40 S&W SigPro 2340 and I'd much rather have one of my Glocks.
Never had any problem with the Sig at all, but I like my Glocks better.
On the range, I qualify with the Sig in the mid to high 90th percentile. And I shoot my bone stock off-duty G30 SF even better. For me, there's less muzzle rise and recoil is straight back. That makes for faster, more accurate shooting. And that gives me confidence. And confidence in your weapon and in your abilities is an indispensable asset in a gunfight.
And by the way, it's not all about the bidding process and the lowest bottom dollar. Administrative interference and politics also enter into the equation of handgun selection.
Warchild
May 19, 2010, 11:00 PM
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
AHAHAHAHA!!!!:D And this is based on what factual evidence? I believe Dave Sevigny would likely disagree. I can already tell you my next post will probably be something like "Oh here we go again......" based on the response that will most likely follow this one.
Baba Louie
May 20, 2010, 09:07 AM
GLOCK = bottom feeding revolver-like simplicity in operation with a spongy trigger, grip that takes some adjustment (for some) and goes bang every time the trigger is pulled. Sorta like a S&W Model 10 and a 1911 combined in a non-sexy utilitarian design.
It's just a gun. Not the end all be all. I have sipped the Austrian kool aid but prefer to drink other flavors more often. YMMV
GLOCK did take the world by storm there back in the late 80's early 90's tho', did it not? (Great marketing thanks to Jack Anderson and his "Plastic Pistol/Terrorist Airport" article and the ensuing brouhaha)
stephen426
May 20, 2010, 10:30 AM
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
I actually believe this. I think one of the biggest factors has to be with the sights. If all three guns have their stock factory sights, the Glock should be slightly less accurate. Glocks "ball between the goal posts" is great for rapid target acquisition, but is less suited for precision target work. The Sig's Stovenhagen (sp?) bar-dot sight is very good for rapid horizontal sight acquisition, but is slightly slower for vertical sight acquisition since you have to line up the top of the black front sights and rear sights. HK uses 3 dot sights which are probably the best for precision shooting. It is fastest for vertical sight acquition and still very fast for horizontal sight acquistion. The 3 dot system may be slightly slower than Glocks system for speed, but it is certainly more precise.
I switched my factory Glock sights for a 3 dot nights sight. I have the front sight green and the rear sights yellow (so it is harder to confuse them in the dark). I found my precision to go up considerably with the three dot system, even though I was pretty accurate with the Glock factory sights. I also think there is a learning curve for the Glock trigger. For me, it seems like its mush, mush, mush, bang. The break is not anywhere as clean and crisp as Sig or H&K's single action triggers. Glock's Safe-Action is much better than either Sig or H&K's double action trigger pull. Once you get used to Glock's trigger, it is capable of very good accuracy.
With all that said, all three guns are designed to be "combat guns". They are not bullseye guns and the difference in accuracy are minute (barring differences in sights). For practically any situation, the Glock is more than accurate enough.
lee n. field
May 20, 2010, 10:49 AM
Glocks "ball between the goal posts" is great for rapid target acquisition, but is less suited for precision target work.
Seems to me, if you're going for "precision target work", you'll want to install whatever sights work best for you. Is the Glock, human factors aside (as in, shot from a Ransom rest), as accurate as those others?
"Rapid target acquisition" would fit right in with what a Glock is normally there for.
IanS
May 20, 2010, 10:54 AM
I also think there is a learning curve for the Glock trigger. For me, it seems like its mush, mush, mush, bang. The break is not anywhere as clean and crisp as Sig or H&K's single action triggers.
After the first shot if you utilize the short trigger reset you don't have to let off the trigger fully and you'll have a shorter trigger stroke for subsequent shots. More like "click". And when I manipulate the Glock trigger properly with deliberateness I'm really not aware of the the spongy mush mush feel you describe. Just like the DA trigger on a revolver you shouldn't be "aware" of the different stages of the trigger as you press it smoothly. The trick is to not press the trigger pausing to "feel" every stage of the trigger. Or the tendency is to anticipate the shot. It doesn't matter if its a Glock, the SA trigger on a SIG P226, or a 1911.
But yes, there is a learning curve for the Glock trigger. It is different than what some people may be used to. But once its understood it makes sense.
vladan
May 20, 2010, 12:10 PM
+1 what he said ^^^
A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
All right, I'm game ...
Glock 23, Lone wolf barrel, night sites, factory ( 5.5LBS ) trigger, 15 yards aimed fire, 165g Winchester FMJ, 4.4g Titegroup, Wolf SP primers
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=59964&stc=1&d=1274375197
I have 6 Glocks, 6 HK's and 4 SiG's...and have had many more of each...
Guess its time to start shooting them :D
obxned
May 20, 2010, 12:22 PM
I'm sure Gaston is heartbroken.
frolic1
May 20, 2010, 12:22 PM
Those that don't like Glocks consistently mention looks, feel (grip), and trigger. I used to own a G19 until I tried a Walther P99AS. It addressed all these issues. In addition it's just as reliable and easy to strip and clean. the grip is adjustable with 3 different sized back plates and there are different trigger pulls available AS (anti stress which I like for safety), QA (quick action, like the glocks), and DAO. But then again it also costs more.
stephen426
May 20, 2010, 12:50 PM
vladan,
what is your point of posting the picture of your target since you switched out you Glock factory barrel for a Lone Wolf barrel? Was accuracy with the Glock barrel not sufficient? What about your night sights? Are they of the three dot variety? Re-read my post if you want my opinion on what a difference sights can make.
After-market parts and custom work can make a mediocre product (I'm not calling Glock mediocre so no flames please) out perform good, stock factory products. With enough work, a lowly Honda Civic or Ford Mustang can keep up with a stock Ferrari.
I would be interested in seeing results from a Ransom Rest shootout using the same type of ammo. I think there might be a slight difference in overall accuracy, but I doubt it will make a difference in the "real world".
IanS
May 20, 2010, 01:20 PM
Some people use aftermarket barrels with traditional barrel grooves so they can fire lead reloads not just so they can have a tighter chamber for increased accuracy. Butover the years I've observed Glocks tend to perform more reliably the less aftermarket parts that can potentially affect reliability are added.
Here's a video of Hickock45 utilizing both a LoneWolf barrel and stock barrel in his Glock 21. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0s6YV0Di7M
Its not to say everyone will experience the same issues as Hickock45 but the odds increase anytime you add something that wasn't figured into the original design parameters by the Glock engineers.
vladan
May 20, 2010, 01:32 PM
vladan,
what is your point of posting the picture of your target since you switched out you Glock factory barrel for a Lone Wolf barrel? Was accuracy with the Glock barrel not sufficient? What about your night sights? Are they of the three dot variety? Re-read my post if you want my opinion on what a difference sights can make.
I shoot a quite lot of lead therefore need for conventionally riffled barrel, nothing to do with accuracy. Factory barrel will do the same group, as will do my other conversion barrels for 9mm and .357sig
Fixed night sights will not make you a crack shot, especially in day time. It's not like I would have tricked out fiber optic sights. :)
Your results are subjective, some prefer three dot while others like other type of sights. Aimed fire requirements is different from rapid sight picture acquisition needs. ;)
Are we really going to argue about how after market parts make you hit the ten ring with your both eyes closed and hands in the pocket ?
I would be interested in seeing results from a Ransom Rest shootout using the same type of ammo. I think there might be a slight difference in overall accuracy, but I doubt it will make a difference in the "real world".
Group would probably ( certainly! ) shrink since ransom rest would remove my inaccuracy from equation :D
stephen426
May 20, 2010, 02:05 PM
I shoot a quite lot of lead therefore need for conventionally riffled barrel, nothing to do with accuracy
Fixed night sights will not make you a crack shot, especially in day time. Your results are subjective, some prefer three dot while others like other type sights. Aimed fire requirements is different from rapid sight picture acquisition needs.
Are we really going to argue about how after market parts make you hit the ten ring with your both eyes closed and hands in the pocket ?
As I mentioned before, once you start changing out factory parts for aftermarket parts, you are no longer comparing apples to apples. Besides, I said that any differences in accuracy were probably minimal at best.
As for the night sights, I'd be willing to bet that the same person shooting the same gun (except for sights) would have better precision with a 3 dot sight. I really do not believe it is just a matter or preference. It is almost the same as having a longer sight radius or a smaller peep sight and front blade. While the gun is just as accurate the ease of aligning the sights consistently will affect precision. Glock sights are great for rapid sight acquisition as closer distances. They are definately not ideal for bulleye shooting.
vladan
May 20, 2010, 02:23 PM
As I mentioned before, once you start changing out factory parts for aftermarket parts, you are no longer comparing apples to apples. Besides, I said that any differences in accuracy were probably minimal at best.
Yes, the difference is minimal if any, that is why I do not believe we are comparing apples to oranges. The quote was : A SiG and HK will outshoot a Glock in any experienced shooters hands...
My point is that an experienced shooter will shoot HIS WEAPON accurately, be that 1911, Glock, SiG, CZ or HK.
Look, I am willing to put my factory barrel back in next time I am shooting if that'll make you happy.
The results will be the same :cool:
gandog56
May 20, 2010, 02:29 PM
I still hate them. They do not seem to make one model that feels right in my small, fat fingered hand.
Stevie-Ray
May 20, 2010, 02:29 PM
I tried to hate Glocks way back in the beginning. They were simply ugly and different. Then several years ago, when I wanted a small 9mm, I bought the wrong one, (don't ask) and replaced it with a Glock 26. It was almost perfect, simply too generous in girth. Now, I also have a G29. I still prefer my 1911s, as nothing fits my hand better, but I'd be lying if I said I want no more Glocks. And if a single-stack 26 comes along, I'll be one of the first owners.
bsheets20061
May 21, 2010, 11:08 PM
thought the glock lovers would like this. Not mine but thinking of going class III to get this set up
j frame
May 31, 2010, 02:54 PM
I love S&W revolvers. Always have. I don't own a Glock, but I am seriously considering a 19 or 23, leaning to the 23. I haven't paid them NEAR the attention of a 3.5" Model 27 S&W, but I sure don't HATE them. I feel that they are like a modern day S&W Military and Police. They WORK. The reason they work is not at all unlike the old air-cooled Volkswagens. They have a minimum of moving parts. They are manufactured inexpensively. (Not saying cheaply!). They do the job, which is provide a self defense tool to the public and LEO's that is easy to train and learn with. I personally think that they are a wonderful tool for the purpose.
Mutatio Nomenis
May 31, 2010, 02:59 PM
There's a reason why they are popular: they offer a very good product at an acceptable price. Glock has quite high standards in making their guns. Just don't put non FMJ and TMJ rounds through them because they use polygonal rifling.
threegun
May 31, 2010, 03:32 PM
OP welcome to the dark side.
TOM RENZO
May 31, 2010, 03:45 PM
They all look the same; every cop in the nation owns one (so they're not unique); and their frames are plastic!
Kind of contridicts your assesment of the gun doesn't it . Cops want guns that work and shoot good. Glocks are outstanding guns. But with that said some people LIKE TOYOTAS. Well they found out really fast how lousy a car they really are. I love glocks their accurate light and shoot reliably. Better get used to polimer guns if you are a young dude. This is the future. Cops carry GLOCKS because they are good and very reliable and they do not have a safety. This is very important in a carry gun.
Uncle Malice
May 31, 2010, 04:27 PM
There's a reason why they are popular: they offer a very good product at an acceptable price. Glock has quite high standards in making their guns. Just don't put non FMJ and TMJ rounds through them because they use polygonal rifling.
There is no problem with shooting ammo that is not FMJ out TMJ out of a polygonal barrel. Don't be absurd. What they recommend against is shooting bare lead bullets, but even that doesn't cause a problem if you keep it clean. The bare lead will cause a faster buildup inside, but unless you are shooting 500 rounds between cleaning, you'll be fine.
There is absolutely no problem with shooting hollowpoint ammo out of a glock.
Single Six
May 31, 2010, 11:42 PM
I can't fault the Glocks. I've handled them. I've shot them. They are,in my limited experience with them,very reliable and very accurate. But they're just not for me...because they don't come with a manual safety. It's just a personal preference;if I'm gonna carry a semi-auto for defense,it will have a manual safety. Scores of LEOs in this country have had a bad guy get control of their sidearm and try to shoot them with it,only to fail because the manual safety was on and they couldn't figure out how to make the gun shoot. In many cases,this gave the LEO the necessary time to access his backup piece and solve the problem...or,for lack of a second gun,to run like heck. I'm aware of the Cominolli safety that can be installed,but as I understand it,it's for right-handed shooters only. My being a southpaw precludes that option. So: Glock lovers,I find no fault in your choice. More power to you. In fact, I just MIGHT buy one someday just to practice with. That would save wear and tear on my chosen carry gun. But I'll never have one for defensive purposes.
rayban
June 1, 2010, 05:49 AM
I just picked mine up on Fri......sent about 100 rounds through it yesterday....I like it lots!!
http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb277/RGleather/Glock19003.jpg
Single Six
June 1, 2010, 11:34 AM
Hey,that reminds me..A few years back I saw where Chuck Taylor was periodically reporting on his quest to see if he could wear out his Glock 17. His round count [when last I saw such an article] was in the very high six digits. I haven't heard anything about it in a while. Can anyone give me an update?
Nick70
June 1, 2010, 01:56 PM
It's amazing how consumed one can get by a simple tool we call the pistol. I'm as bad as anyone. Get me in a gun show and have fun trying to get me out. I love them all. When I go to a gun show or a retail gun store, I spend all my time looking at 1911's, Sigs, HK's, or any other high-end pistol. I don't waste one second looking at Glocks. Although I own and love Kimbers and Sigs, you know what I trust more than any and carry everyday? Glock 19 baby.
FreakGasolineFight
June 1, 2010, 02:15 PM
But with that said some people LIKE TOYOTAS. Well they found out really fast how lousy a car they really are.
What planet do you come from?
I'll wager my 19-year-old Toyota will last way longer than whatever POS American car you drive.
Stevie-Ray
June 1, 2010, 03:01 PM
I'll wager my 19-year-old Toyota will last way longer than whatever POS American car you drive. Don't expect to compare the Toyota of yesteryear to the Toyota of today. Most of us saw this coming and warned of the impending recalls way before they happened. You can't put out that kind of volume and retain your quality along with low price. Toyota just sucked everybody in, but that's another matter. Compare apples to apples. New Ford to new Toyota and you've got a wager. Besides, there's a ton of multi-hundred K mile Ford owners that will take you up on your original wager.
Keep driving your "POS" Japanese car.:rolleyes:
Sorry for off topic, but this ticks me off!:mad:
dnr1128
June 1, 2010, 03:10 PM
I drive a 1995 chevy truck, and it runs as smooth as the day it rolled off the lot. The Asians can keep their trucks, I buy American.
Carry on, gents.
rayban
June 1, 2010, 07:13 PM
So much for my new Glock....this has turned into "the View"....
TOM RENZO
June 2, 2010, 04:52 AM
So much for my new Glock....this has turned into "the View"....
Totally correct RAYBAN !!!!!!!!!!! This has definately turned into the VIEW!!!
Just VIEW some of the TARGETS that were posted!!!!!! A photo is worth a thousand words!!!!!!!!!! Some may not like GLOCKS and some do. But the bottom line is the gun is a first class well made shoots great and reliable gun. Just me!!! I own several and like them very much.
:D:D
TOM RENZO
June 2, 2010, 05:02 AM
What planet do you come from?
I am from EARTH !!!! The same planet where i changed app 300 Toyota Pickup frames because they RUST AWAY like tissue PAPER. I personally love them but would not own one. (They keep the shop full of work) Sorry for the off TOPIC. But this is the same thing as someone bashing a totally fine FIREARM like a GLOCK. Its one thing to not like the feel or finish or whatever but a GLOCK is a fine GUN.
rayban
June 2, 2010, 05:33 AM
"Some may not like GLOCKS and some do. But the bottom line is the gun is a first class well made shoots great and reliable gun. Just me!!! I own several and like them very much."
Thanks, I feel better now...;)
mes228
June 2, 2010, 07:00 AM
I suspect that 99% of the people that have owned Toyota would buy another one in a heart beat. The anti Toyota PR campaign will only convince those that haven't owned one. I've owned a few and my wife has a Corolla now. The "core" of their business will remain intact. Because most owners "know" much much better than the PR. I suspect that owners, overall would tell you a Toyota is the best car in the world. I've owned several, all pretty much went 200K with no problems whatsoever. Contrast that with my experience with trying to be patriotic and buying Chrysler products ( I bought three. Love the styling but the rest is another matter). My latest, a Van, had two transmissions, water pump, air conditioning system, heater core (over $800 labor on that baby ie the whole interior had to come out to replace it), fuel pump (yep over $800 on that one also, as the whole instrument cluster "pod" is combined with the fuel pump in the tank), and then engine blew at 170k. That van was replaced with a Nissan Exterra. I now have 113k and have replaced and repaired absolutely nothing, nada, zip. Not a plug, nor a brake pad, absolutely nothing. I did put new wiper blades on. I had the same experience with the Toyota's ie 200k and not even a water pump. Can you put 200k-300k on a Ford/Chevy/Chrysler - of course you can. But in the process you'll replace transmissions, water pumps, fuel pumps, radiators, hoses, air conditioning, probably even the dash switches. If we don't start building better subsystems in our products no one will buy USA autos. They can't afford to keep the things running. Just my two cents.
TopHat
June 2, 2010, 10:44 AM
Glock 22 for me
FreakGasolineFight
June 2, 2010, 10:46 AM
Keep driving your "POS" Japanese car.
My car: 1991 Toyota Corolla, 68,000 miles, running strong (means nothing, I know)
My previous car: 1994 Subaru Legacy, (died of rust at 402,000 miles)
Father's car: 1991 Toyota Previa (sold at 386,000 miles)
Fiance's car: 1994 Toyota Corolla (226,000, still running strong)
Friend's car: 1990 Toyota Camry, blew a radiator hose, overheated and died at ... wait for it ... 675,000 miles
All numbers are approximate, within 10k miles or so.
Show me someone with an American car that can do that, and I'll show you a liar. Japanese cars are always better than American cars. Always. Anyone who claims otherwise is either simply deluding themselves or just buying into the anti-Toyota hype.
Leejack
June 2, 2010, 11:13 AM
How did this turn into an American bashing thread?
Where is this forum located anyways? I've had enough of this.
I submit to the mods, close this one.
Lee
IanS
June 2, 2010, 11:27 AM
Sad how Toyota's quality took a dip around the same time they started building them in the U.S. And recalls? The Detroit Big 3 has had more than their share of massive and potentially dangerous recalls.
Its funny how the Anti-Glock contingent tries to come up with every reason under the sun why others shouldn't choose or like a Glock. Refute one and they'll come up with something else. For them we're not allowed to really like them or say good things about them and if we own them its because we couldn't afford or don't know any better. :barf: Its the only way it makes sense in their little world. Glock's popularity is a total freakish accident. Or like a nightmare that won't end. No matter how much crap they throw at them their popularity doesn't seem to stop. All those years of bad mouthing them on the internet hasn't caused a dent. It must be frustrating as hell. And they'll believe everything BUT what most Glock owners say about them. We like them. We really do.:rolleyes:
How did this turn into an American bashing thread?
American bashing thread? We're talking products and the free market. People don't WANT to buy foreign. People want to buy things with their hard earned money based on merit.
R1145
June 2, 2010, 11:32 AM
I've had a Glock 19 for years (uh, decades...) but if I were to buy a self-defense handgun today *, I'd get a Smith and Wesson M&P .40.
It's a mechanical copy of the Glock, but it feels better in your hand, more instinctive pointing.
The styling is goofy, and all the other features are moot for me in a combat handgun: interchangable grip panels (but I have big hands...); easier, safer takedown; ambi slide stop (though a southpaw, I train to rack the slide); reversible mag release and drop-free mags (overrated in a high-cap handgun, IMHO).
Glocks seem more rugged and better made, simpler and more elegant styling, but, due to the grip angle, advantage: Smith.
(*unless limited to 10 round mags, as we are here in Kalifornia, in which case, I'd buy a 1911-type in .45...)
TOM RENZO
June 2, 2010, 11:50 AM
Lets SEE Taurus is a big thriving company and making tuns of MONEY. I own one that was my fathers and use it to hold the garage door open. Now some think they make good guns and for certain people thats OK. It serves a service for them and case closed. I personally would not own one . I know the difference. But can anyone posting here say with firm conviction and FACT that a GLOCK is a POS. I bet not one. Because that would be a LIE. You may not like them for grip reasons OK good point but many say they are JUNK. Anyone with any amount of mechanical ability could not say a glock is a bad weapon. So like them dont like them its relivent but they make a GREAT GUN. NYPD would not use them if they were substandard. And many many other PD around the country use them. Not having a safety is one of the best features of this GUN. When i train with my buddies on the force sometimes they rush to the first shooting port and fire away with their safety ON. Woops the safety was on NO BANG BANG. You loose the bad guy just blew you away. Thanks for letting me post my feelings and have a good afternoon. By the way if some of the Glock haters got one for FREE would you TAKE ONE or sell it JUST a THOUGHT.
Remember
Shoot Safe Shoot Often And Share The Sport.
FreakGasolineFight
June 2, 2010, 02:03 PM
By the way if some of the Glock haters got one for FREE would you TAKE ONE or sell it JUST a THOUGHT.
I THINK I would proBABLY sell IT.
IanS
June 2, 2010, 02:07 PM
I THINK I would proBABLY sell IT.
You mean you wouldn't burn it in effigey and stage a protest? wow. I'm surprised. I didn't think such intense hatred could be so easily "bought".;)
FreakGasolineFight
June 2, 2010, 02:25 PM
You mean you wouldn't burn it in effigey
Are you kidding? I could probably get $450 for it, and that's most of a nice new GP100 right there.
Mr. James
June 2, 2010, 02:51 PM
I've never had much use for Glocks, although I've always readily acknowledged they were first rate tools. Thought the polymer "soulless", hated the grip angle and, especially, abhorred the trigger. Well, the resistance to polymer had already fallen before the mighty USP and a camp-following XD, and after much research, I finally bought a used G23. It came with the lightened trigger package, ameliorating one of my biggest objections to the Glock, and I've simply trained myself to deal with the grip (no big deal there).
I'm actually amused at how pleased I am with this pistol - it really is about the best all-around, every-day, don't-give-a-hoot-what-happens-to-it tool. If I suspect I'll be in a nasty or wet environment, the G23 goes with me. And with one spare magazine, I've got enough rounds for an all-out firefight, not that it'll ever come to that (please, Lord!)
Not an aficionado by any means, but a very satisfied customer. :D
TOM RENZO
June 2, 2010, 08:55 PM
OK fair enough guys. I am a little surprized a GP100!!!!!!!!!! I own 3 they are great no dought .But a high CAP GLOCK. Hard to pass UP??? But i would suspect you would run a box of bullits through it . COME ON tell the TRUTH. I bet you would blow a box or two through it!!!!!!!!
Stevie-Ray
June 2, 2010, 10:03 PM
FGF, you have a PM.:rolleyes:
FreakGasolineFight
June 2, 2010, 10:14 PM
COME ON tell the TRUTH. I bet you would blow a box or two through it!!!!!!!!
Ok, maybe a box or two.
Huntress
June 2, 2010, 10:31 PM
I own three Glocks myself:
First in my line up is a police issue model 17, next is a model 21 and finally a model 20.
The first two I purchased used some years ago but they work flawlessly.
Oh! I also own a Gun Crafters glock upper in 50 GI.
Melissa5
June 4, 2010, 04:22 PM
I started out with revolvers and hated the thought of buying a black, plastic gun until I shot my first Glock. Now, I own 3 of them (G19, G30sf, and G36). The revolvers are pretty safe queens.
Honda4me
June 4, 2010, 07:40 PM
I never shot a Glock I didn't like. I own a G17 amd a G30 and they both are terrific shooters and totally dependable. Never had a FTF or extract. Knowing something will never fail me if I maintain it comforts me when I carry and shoot it. I don't shoot my pistols much and I completely clean them after the trip to the range. :D I love Toyota and Honda as well.
Pappy John
June 5, 2010, 06:24 PM
COME ON tell the TRUTH. I bet you would blow a box or two through it!!!!!!!!
Ok, maybe a box or two.
I predict that that is all it would take. I always hated them just on general principal until I came across a deal too good to pass up on a G17 and finally shot one about five years ago.
Five other Glock models later, they've become my GO TO guns for everything except hunting, and that's only because Pennsylvania has some archaic rules against semi auto hunting arms, otherwise my G20 would be filling that role too.
E.T.A. 2007 Toyota Tundra in the driveway. No unscheduled accelerations to date.:D
Mutatio Nomenis
June 7, 2010, 04:29 PM
@ Uncle Malice: You don't know much about polygonal rifling do you? Polygonal rifling is not a good mix with unjacketed rounds because the bore will get clogged up more quickly than with a groove rifling job.
Taptap
June 20, 2010, 10:43 PM
"Glocks are junk...you don't see the pros use them, only peeps walking into gunstores asking 'hey which gun should I buy?'
Kabooms, melted guide rods after a 1000 rds, I personaly had the much vaunted light primer strike failure to fire issue...that ofcourse required buying aftermarket barrels to fix....
But if I had to buy a Glock, like if Aliens were after me and I could only choose a Glock..then it would be the G19, simply because it has a nice carry weight/profile, and the 9mm rd is easy to feed..... "
:D this is great stuff! obviusly we have a true expert among us and and I, for one, am glad to have him. I have never been a Glock owner, always Sigs and 1911s of various make, but I was thinking of buying myself a g26 to fill the vacancy left by a p239 that I sold.
Thank god I saw this post.
I was about to make a huge mistake. Thank you Johns7022
DRSmith
June 21, 2010, 01:09 AM
More FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) has been spread about Glocks than any other handgun. Even before the internet became popular and even before the term FUD was even invented.
The internet was around in the 1970s, and I considered it popular. The term FUD was used in the 1960s to describe how IBM sold computers and locked out its competitors, and it probably predates that usage.
redsrtturbo
June 21, 2010, 01:25 AM
I don't really like Glocks all that much myself-
Don't like the grip angle, don't like the thickness. I own a polymer xD-m 9mm, and I love it. I have only shot the .40 cal glock though, so maybe it's the the caliber I don't like.
I would love to shoot a 9mm glock just to feel the difference. I have never shot a 1911 either, so I really have no idea what I'm talking about.
riggins_83
June 21, 2010, 01:27 AM
I started out rather anti glock.. then I started carrying a 36 and fell in love. Now I own 3 Glocks :)
5.56RifleGuy
June 21, 2010, 01:40 AM
I shot my first not that long ago. It wasnt a religious experiance, but I did like it. I would buy one, but it isnt high on my list. I dont remember the model I shot, but it was a compact or sub compact 9mm.
DRSmith
June 21, 2010, 01:40 AM
While mulling over my first pistol purchase (besides an inheritance), I auditioned the G34, G19, and G17, among others. The G19 was the absolute worst fit to my hand of anything I tried, because fingers 4 and 5 land on the ridges instead of the gaps between the ridges. The ridges on the G17 and G34 are fine for me, but the front strap is squared off. If the grip were longer front to back, that might fit my fingers, but it isn't and it doesn't. Glock grips are procrustean.
I fired 76 rounds out of a G17 one afternoon. After about 50, I noticed that my trigger finger was getting sore, because the trigger safety doesn't retract flush into the trigger face. After the 76, I knew I had to cross it off my list.
The other negative factor is the grip angle. I had done some reading, watching internet videos, and trying out ways to hold the guns I was auditioning. On one Wednesday evening Midway USA TV show, an expert recommended rotating the support hand forward one thumb joint's worth, such that the S-curves of the two hands mesh. That works fine for the M&P. But doing it with the G17 pinned my left wrist's rotation at the end of its travel, which got uncomfortable quickly. Shooting the Glock requires a different support grip.
The pistol that best fit my hand turned out to be the M&P, followed by the Px4. I decided on the M&P.
threegun
June 21, 2010, 05:59 AM
The other negative factor is the grip angle. I had done some reading, watching internet videos, and trying out ways to hold the guns I was auditioning.
Do some more reading and you will notice that the "grip angle" non issue only became a popular knock and mostly against Glock with the reintroduction of the hs2000 by Springfield now known as the XD. Prior to their tremendously successful marketing scheme folks didn't care so much about "grip angle". We knew that if the gun fit well it would point well soon enough and with a bit of use.
******************************************************************************************************************
My introduction to Glock was at the recommendation of a gun store owner. After months of searching for a new pistol I purchased a pt-99 taurus against the gun store owners recommendation. I was very happy. Then I had the opportunity to trade the pt-99 for a Glock 17 and some cash. I made the deal mostly because of the recommendation received earlier. My first trip to the range, which I was forced to fire at 25 yards because all the close targets were taken, hooked me severely. I removed my 17 from the box inserted a loaded magazine and fired all 17 rounds. They all hit the black from 25 yards standing. I put it away and went home.
My initial decision was based on the guns accuracy. As I educated myself in different tactics and what was needed to survive a gunfight the Glock became even more admired. By this time it had proven itself utterly reliable but now things like the consistent trigger, short reset, ultra low bore axis, simplicity in its operation, superb accuracy, light weight, super high capacity and even its incredible finish had all combined to make it my perfect defensive handgun. Try as I might to replace the Glock nothing out there is better. Some are very close perhaps even but nothing is better.
So a special thanks to the gun store owner and thanks to the guy who forced me to trade into the Glock by making the deal so juicy. I am a very very satisfied Glock owner to say the least.
Puff
June 21, 2010, 07:33 AM
Only have experience with the Glock 22 but, I found it very
accurate. Never had a problem with it.
I like it a lot but, think the M&P fits the hands a bit better.
DRSmith
June 21, 2010, 09:37 AM
Do some more reading and you will notice that the "grip angle" non issue only became a popular knock and mostly against Glock with the reintroduction of the hs2000 by Springfield now known as the XD. Prior to their tremendously successful marketing scheme folks didn't care so much about "grip angle".
I don't take issue with that. I was just reporting on my own personal findings. I notice that there are some .22s with even more rakish grip angles, and they must be finding a market.
usaign
July 19, 2010, 04:48 PM
The Glock is the patrolman's pistol. Sure, the other pistols out there are good for administrative use when all you do is sit at a desk or "train" all day. For example, SWAT doesnt really do any patrolling so they can get away with those Springfield Armory 1911s. However, lets face it. The Glock is the only pistol that can stand up to the abuse from a patrolman. Other pistols take a lot of work from a custom shop to make really reliable.
I can freeze mine in a block of ice, fire underwater, throw out of an airplane and it will still work at the end of the day. There is nothing made by colt that can stand up to the same treatment. Most 1911 owners usually have to take out a second mortgage to get their weapon to be really accurate and reliable, but then there is the rust issue on those weapons.
rtpzwms
July 19, 2010, 07:26 PM
Not saying this at all. What I'm saying is: The Sig or HK "COULD" be better. BUT, because the glock happens to meet all of the requirements put out in the bid request, and they were the least expensive bid, they were the choice.
Well you indicated that you've written quotes before. Why if Glocks are so cheap they always win don't you simply put in the weapon must be 96% metal no composites will be considered? I too have had a small hand in RFQ's and if there was a target product wanted I have seen them (the writers) find a unique qualifier in the request to handicap others from bidding. Other than that, I understand your points. But it makes me wonder if Glocks were the target all along?
AZAK
July 20, 2010, 02:37 AM
I can freeze mine in a block of ice, fire underwater, throw out of an airplane and it will still work at the end of the day.
I can't remember the last time that I needed to shoot underwater after being frozen in a block of ice and thrown out of an airplane!
Then again, I might not be able to remember if I had been frozen in a block of ice, thrown out of an airplane, and then expected to shoot under water! Some new kind of triathlon?
And you are right about the Colts; I never freeze any of mine in a block of ice (although it is cold enough for about six months of the year to qualify here), or throw them out of airplanes (not sure why anyone would really want to do this to a perfectly good gun), or shoot them under water (we do have fishing gear for that sort of thing, although I have shot a few big Halibut once hauled up to the surface over the years) ...
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