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View Full Version : Is the .45 gap dead?


Super-Dave
May 10, 2010, 07:51 AM
I was wondering if I bought a .45 gap pistol if I will not be able to get ammo in the future.

Will I still be able to get ammo for the next 30 years?

WC145
May 10, 2010, 07:57 AM
Don't know if it's dead but it's certainly crippled up pretty bad. I'd guess ammo will be available for a long while since there are a few agencies using it but you'll probably pay dearly for it. Obviously it never took off like Gklock had hoped and they pounded more than a few nails in it's coffin themselves when they introduced the G21 with a thinner grip. That kind of negated the need for a .45 in a 9mm/.40 sized frame.

Regardless, it will always be a great conversation piece as a terrific example of a solution for a non-existent problem.

mavracer
May 10, 2010, 08:03 AM
Will I still be able to get ammo for the next 30 years?
sure you'll still be able to get it just don't expect to buy it at wal-mart or local gun-shot.

WvHiker
May 10, 2010, 08:04 AM
I kind of wonder the same thing. I imagine someone will be making it 30 years from now, but you may wind up paying dearly for it. I'd just go with .45acp if I were you.

EdInk
May 10, 2010, 09:42 AM
I don't think it is dead. It didn't catch on like people hoped. It is a good idea but 45acp is a legendary and sentimental round in the US. Even if something better comes along, people will still swear by it. It falls into the niche category with the 357sig IMHO.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 09:55 AM
It's not dead, it has a small but notable following. There are only a couple of LEO agencies still using it, so it's currently supported by shooting enthusiasts who have a thing for it.

If popularity drops too much, it's not beyond Glock to drop the pistols from their line-up which would then most likely sound the death toll for the cartridge. It really is solution to a Glock only problem. There's no need for the cartridge in other designs such as the USP, XD, M&P, etc. as all of these designs easily house the .45 ACP without having excessively large grips like the G21. As mentioned, even Glock realized their folly in the original G21 design and now offer the G21 Slime Frame (SF) which is what I own.

So, 30 years down the road it's hard to say. The primary maker of the guns that chamber the round is Glock. Sure, you can find a few oddball chamberings of this round in other makers product lines but these really are few and far between. So if Glock drops support for the cartridge, that's pretty much the end.

IM_Lugger
May 10, 2010, 10:02 AM
While I do own a .45ACP, I'm a 9mm guy at heart and don't see myself ever getting a .45GAP. Reloading is the way to go tho, .45 bullet is a .45 and you can always trim the ACP cases if you must shoot a GAP.

I agree that with G21 SF out, GAP makes even less sense. Even though if both calibers were out at the same time ACP would not have survived.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 10:05 AM
While I do own a .45ACP, I'm a 9mm guy at heart and don't see myself ever getting a .45GAP. Reloading is the way to go tho, .45 bullet is a .45 and you can always trim the ACP cases if you must shoot a GAP.
Trimming .45 ACP cases isn't exactly safe. You can do it in a pinch, but the GAP brass is thicker at the base than .45 ACP. I wouldn't recommend trimming .45 ACP brass as a standard practice. Bad things can happen.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 10:08 AM
Shoot a G38 and decide for yourself. You may just like it as I did.

I used to be a bigtime GAP cynic, but now only own Glock's that are chambered in 45 GAP.

I still wish Springfield would have gone ahead with the EMP in GAP like they initially said they were gonna' do. My dream CCW would be a CCO config EMP (commander slide over EMP frame) in 45 GAP. I honestly think that could spark a lot of interest in the 45 GAP chambering and would be an incredible carry gun. I love the EMP but am honestly not a big 9 or 40 fan.

David the Gnome
May 10, 2010, 10:24 AM
Given all the .45 GAP close outs that have been all over the web on Glocks recently I would say it's rather safe to assume that .45 GAP is on its way out. I don't know of any other manufacturer that still makes a .45 GAP chambered handgun.

roman3
May 10, 2010, 11:28 AM
Well the 10mm has been around since 1983, so thats 27 years. It never took off either, not really, after the FBI dropped it and Virgina dropped it, that pretty much was that and is not currently being used by any big or even moderate sized LEO agency.

Yet it has a following and Glock still makes the 20/29 for it. When Glock stops making the 10mm platform that will be a big blow to the 10mm.


The 45 Gap is currently the carry gun for 4 State Agencies. Florida will be the 5th sometime this summer.

So for a while as long as Glock can still sell it to LEO's and several big states have it for use, ammo will be available. So you will probably be able to get it for 30 years.

When Glock discontinuesthe GAP platform then I would be worried. And that could happen when Gaston goes to his reward.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 12:03 PM
There is a HUGE difference in the 10mm and the .45 GAP.

1st, the FBI never adopted the .45 GAP. The fact they did sent all the gun manufacturers scurrying to make their own copies. Lots of companies made 10mm handguns. A cartridge doesn't have to be used by every LEO organization in the country to be popular, although it helps. The .44 Mag never saw wide acceptance in the LEO community yet it still survives today despite the fact.

2nd, there are a number of companies still offering 10mm pistols. Glock, Dan Wesson, Kimber, Fusion Arms, Colt just reintroduced the Delta Elite (http://www.coltsmfg.com/products-c5-q69-COLT_PISTOLS.aspx), EAA Witness, S&W 610 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=65062&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y), etc. This isn't the case with the .45 GAP. It's pretty much a Glock only cartridge. Sure, some companies have tried to field .45 GAP pistols (like the Springfield XD in .45 GAP), but they've met with limited success and today not many are to be found. If Glock dropped it, that would be the end of the cartridge.

The 45 Gap is currently the carry gun for 4 State Agencies. Florida will be the 5th sometime this summer.
More agencies still issue revolvers as carry guns than issue the .45 GAP. Do you think this means revolvers are making a comeback in law enforcement? :)

4-5 agencies buying a couple hundred handguns total one time from Glock isn't going to be enough to keep Glock interested in making the pistols. That's very insignificant in the grand scheme of things. It's the limited popularity of the cartridge outside of the LEO communities that is keeping it alive I'm afraid. If sales drop, Glock will likely end manufacturing and support as they've done for unpopular designs in the past. Given the sell-off of .45 GAP Glocks lately for super cheap prices, this is a clear indicator the product isn't doing well. Don't expect Glock to offer them forever...

Te Anau
May 10, 2010, 12:24 PM
Given all the .45 GAP close outs that have been all over the web on Glocks recently I would say it's rather safe to assume that .45 GAP is on its way out.
+1 on that.

Gats Italian
May 10, 2010, 02:02 PM
I don't think it is dead. It didn't catch on like people hoped. It is a good idea but 45acp is a legendary and sentimental round in the US. Even if something better comes along, people will still swear by it. It falls into the niche category with the 357sig IMHO.

That bolded part simply isn't true. Next to no one was clamoring for a shortened .45ACP case. As noted, the GAP is the answer to a question that was only plaguing Glock on a misdesign of their too fat .45ACP offerings.

There is a certain sentimentality around the .45ACP, but it's still a top ballistic performer too. The GAP certainly doesn't improve upon the .45ACP in any objective manner.

ClydeFrog
May 10, 2010, 02:18 PM
I say not so fast...
I agree with TFL members who say the .45GAP is an answer to a question no one really asked but I wouldn't honestly say it's dead & gone just yet.
If major US law enforcement agencies like the PA state police, the NY State Police and the Florida Highway Patrol buy & issue the .45GAP, then I'd think Glock would keep the .45GAP on the market.
I'd be hard-pressed to buy or carry a .45GAP Glock model but I would not call it a "wild-cat" just yet.

Clyde
ps: I really wouldn't put the .357sig in the same catagory as the .45GAP either. The .357sig isn't as popular as the .45acp or .40S&W but it's far, far away from being pushed out the door.

WC145
May 10, 2010, 02:38 PM
If major US law enforcement agencies like the PA state police, the NY State Police and the Florida Highway Patrol buy & issue the .45GAP, then I'd think Glock would keep the .45GAP on the market.

You can bet that as the guns those agencies purchased start getting towards replacement age, they'll be looking at guns in more conventional (ie: less expensive) calibers, especially as GAP ammo costs climb due to lack of interest.

So..... If you're really interested in a Glock in .45GAP I say give it a few years and they'll be selling cheap on the police trade-in market.

Tom Servo
May 10, 2010, 02:52 PM
More agencies still issue revolvers as carry guns than issue the .45 GAP. Do you think this means revolvers are making a comeback in law enforcement?
One can only hope :)

The biggest original selling point for .45 GAP was that it could be chambered in a gun similar in dimensions to a 9mm or .40. As such, law enforcement could have a load equivalent to a .45 ACP without changing duty gear.

Mr. Glock announced it that way before it was realized that there were reliability problems, and when they had to go with a bigger slide, the main selling point was lost.

I seem to remember Springfield promoting XD pistols in the chambering, but I don't think they're supporting it anymore. That leaves Glock, supporting a proprietary cartridge. Imagine if the Bren Ten was the only pistol anybody ever chambered in 10mm, and you can see my concern.

Unfortunately, I can see no compelling reason to adopt the loading.

Action_Can_Do
May 10, 2010, 02:52 PM
What do you mean by dead? The 45 gap isn't going anywhere. There are plenty of cartridges that haven't had a gun made in their chambering for years that still have factory ammo available for them (445 super comes to mind.) People will still be shooting 45 gap in 30 years, even if there are no guns sold in that chambering. People are extremely quick to announce a cartridge as being dead and they're always wrong. Incidentally, the 45 acp was declared dead by many "experts" back in the early 90's. Other cartridges that have been declared dead include the 30-06, 45 colt, 41 magnum, 10mm, 38 super, 45-70, 220 swift, and on and on and...

lee n. field
May 10, 2010, 03:27 PM
I was wondering if I bought a .45 gap pistol if I will not be able to get ammo in the future.


I wouldn't be getting one, right now. If I had one, I'd be looking into conversion barrels to take it to 9mm or (more likely) .40S&W. Assuming such exist.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 03:43 PM
What does dead mean?

It means not a single manufacturer still makes a pistol chambering it. Since we're down to what, one manufacturer of the .45 GAP pistol (that being Glock, perhaps XD's are still available)? I would say it's MUCH closer to being dead than the other calibers mentioned like the 10mm, 45 Colt, 38 Super, etc.

Once the .45 GAP is dead, I doubt anyone will revive it 10 years later.

Brian Pfleuger
May 10, 2010, 03:59 PM
I would say it's MUCH closer to being dead than the other calibers mentioned like the 10mm, 45 Colt, 38 Super, etc.

^^^This is truth.

A quick survery of Buds Gun Shop shows that 6 companies make guns in 38Super, 8 45Colt, 5 10mm and 6 making 357sig (since the Sig is supposedly dying too).

The 45GAP shows only TWO, and at least some of those available from Springfield say "2006 package" and they have no Springfields in stock. I actually think that Springfield stopped making them, but their site is so clunky that I'm not going to dig through it to figure out for sure.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 04:08 PM
I can't help wonder how many that have opined here have even fired one.

WC145
May 10, 2010, 04:21 PM
I can't help wonder how many that have opined here have even fired one.

Probably very few, which lends credence to much of what has been said here. Besides, it's not like shooting one would do much to change anyone's mind, would it? Except for allowing a smaller grip diameter it is nothing more than a short .45ACP with exactly the same ballistics for given bullet weights. So, if you've shot an ACP you have, for all intents and purposes, experienced what it would be like to shoot a GAP.

Brian Pfleuger
May 10, 2010, 04:25 PM
I can't help wonder how many that have opined here have even fired one.

What does personal experience, or preference, have to do with the likely survival of the 45GAP?

MASS preference may result in survival. Individual experience or preference has no bearing on pointing out the facts, like almost no one makes a gun chambered in the round, and there are fewer today than there were a few years ago. Those are not good signs for the round.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 04:26 PM
I can't help wonder how many that have opined here have even fired one.
What does this have to do with the discussion of what constitutes a "dead" cartridge and if the GAP will survive or be gone in 30 years?

It's a neat cartridge and the Glock is a great pistol. But that's totally irrelevant to the discussion.

If Glock stops making the pistol, and they very well may, that's the end of the GAP story. Ammo will dry up, parts will dry up and in 30 years they will be collectors items.

roman3
May 10, 2010, 04:48 PM
If Glock stops making the pistol, and they very well may, that's the end of the GAP story. Ammo will dry up, parts will dry up and in 30 years they will be collectors items.


Pretty much can't argue this point. Glock won't cease production as long as the 5 state agencies carry the gun. How long will that be? Who knows?

The FBI had the 10mm pistol a little less than 5 years before changing to the Glock 40's ...

On the other hand if Glock does great deals and gets more cops on board then who knows, the 45 GAP may hang on a while and perhaps other makers may introduce one.

It all depends on if the cops like it.

DonutGuy
May 10, 2010, 04:48 PM
GAP is alive and well, the only way you'll see the GAP tank is when Glock tanks, which won't happen.

Webleymkv
May 10, 2010, 05:06 PM
The GAP, while not a dead or useless cartridge, really only serves one purpose: to make a .45 Glock that is friendly to shooters with smaller hands. The problem with the .45 ACP in a Glock-like platform isn't really its length but rather its width (single stack .45's like 1911's have been favorites of small-handed shooters for years due to their slim grips). In order to adress these concerns with a .45 ACP pistol, Glock would have had to make some fairly significant design changes to their frame and use single-stack magazines. Instead, it was simply easier and more cost effective to do the same thing S&W did with the .40: shorten the case and shoehorn it into a smaller frame. Really, there are a lot of parallels between the .45 ACP/GAP and the 10mm/.40 S&W: both were shortened in order to fit into a smaller platform and both sacrifice top-end ballistics (.45 GAP cannot match .45 ACP +P ballistics due to pressure constraints) in order to do so.

So long as at least a few fairly large LE agencies still use guns chambered for the cartridge, I suspect that at least parts and ammo will remain available. When the Kentucky State Police adopted the S&W 1076 shortly before it was discontinued, S&W agreed to maintain an inventory of parts for, IIRC, at least ten years.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 05:12 PM
Pretty much can't argue this point. Glock won't cease production as long as the 5 state agencies carry the gun. How long will that be? Who knows?
I don't agree with this assessment. These departments don't buy thousands of upon thousands of .45 GAP's a year. They make one big initial investment then buy a handful of pistols a year. If Glock decides the product line is no longer profitable, they most certainly will cancel the product and just maintain those pistols in service until they're no longer serviceable. If Glock stopped manufacturing GAP pistols tomorrow, they could still service those in service for years to come with spare parts. Heck, they likely have a very high percentage of parts commonality with other models. About the only difference might be the slides, barrels, and a few other miscellaneous parts.

Sturmgewehre
May 10, 2010, 05:14 PM
GAP is alive and well, the only way you'll see the GAP tank is when Glock tanks, which won't happen.
This may come as a shock to you, but Glock wasn't built on the G37. :D That would be the G17 and now the G22 and G21.

Glock can, and likely will at some point, drop the G37 from their product offering due to extremely poor sales. This won't be the end of Glock if they drop a poor selling product. They'll do just fine with their other offerings in far more popular calibers such as the 9mm, .40 Smith and .45 ACP.

Webleymkv
May 10, 2010, 05:36 PM
Quote:
GAP is alive and well, the only way you'll see the GAP tank is when Glock tanks, which won't happen.

This may come as a shock to you, but Glock wasn't built on the G37. That would be the G17 and now the G22 and G21.

Glock can, and likely will at some point, drop the G37 from their product offering due to extremely poor sales. This won't be the end of Glock if they drop a poor selling product. They'll do just fine with their other offerings in far more popular calibers such as the 9mm, .40 Smith and .45 ACP.


While I don't necessarily disagree, I think there is one other factor that you may not be counting on: saving face. Even if .45 GAP sales were to flop, I could see Glock continuing to offer a pistol, or maybe even just a factory conversion kit, just so it cannot be said that their self-named cartridge flopped and died. Since they've already invested the R&D and equipment to produce guns chambered for .45 GAP, I doubt that it would cost them much to do one or two runs of a handful of so-chambered handguns every year or two.

Also, assuming that a few large LE agencies stay with .45 GAP pistols, I could see there being a moderately lucrative market in selling so-chambered compact or subcompact guns to individual officers as off-duty/backup pieces. That, however, would be entirely dependant upon LE agencies staying with the GAP, a phenomenon which remains to be seen.

WC145
May 10, 2010, 05:52 PM
Also, assuming that a few large LE agencies stay with .45 GAP pistols, I could see there being a moderately lucrative market in selling so-chambered compact or subcompact guns to individual officers as off-duty/backup pieces.

A market currently serviced only by Glock. If there was even a hint of profitability there someone else would be sniffing around and I have yet to see any interest in that redheaded stepchild by anyone but it's father.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 06:56 PM
I sorta' see you guys point about relevance, but then again you guys are then admitting to forming an opinion on that with which you have no actual experience. I guess we are also factoring in marketing and other none performance based factors.

My point I so clumsily didn't make is that I totally dissed the GAP 'til a buddy had me shoot a G38. I'm telling you guys it is the best Glock made by far and the numbers on paper cannot convey the way it handles and shoots.

Think about it this way - how many of you bagged the 1911 before you tried it based on weight, capacity, cost etc.? Some things cannot be explained, but must be experienced. I honestly believe that a very significant number of folks that post negativity about the GAP would emerge from a range experience with a G38 with a very different view of the GAP.

That said, the real issue at hand (OP-wise) is whether said critics ever do try out what they are disregarding.

Brian Pfleuger
May 10, 2010, 07:35 PM
I'm not "dissing" the GAP at all. I don't have a hat in the ring. It means nothing to me if it survives or doesn't. I'm just calling it the way I see it. Ammo is not in any store that I've ever seen, guns are made by one, maybe two, companies. The signs are not good for the GAP. If it survives, great. If not, oh well. Means nothing to me either way.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 08:00 PM
Perhaps a bad choice of words on my part. I simply wanted others to know I used to doubt the GAP's worth until I tried it, particularly in the G38 model. I really don't particularly care of the 37, but love the 38 and also like the 39, my usual BUG.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 08:09 PM
One last thing (I promise) - is there no one here that would like to shoot the pistol I dreamed up a page back, namely an EMP, preferably with a Commander length slide, chambered in 45? Tell me that wouldn't be cool.

mavracer
May 10, 2010, 08:22 PM
One last thing (I promise) - is there no one here that would like to shoot the pistol I dreamed up a page back, namely an EMP, preferably with a Commander length slide, chambered in 45? Tell me that wouldn't be cool.
I wouldn't while I think the EMP is a great idea and the ones I've seen and handled show great workmanship.The problem I have is a normal size 1911 fits my hand like a glove. The EMP feels absolutely weird.

Red_Eagle
May 10, 2010, 08:42 PM
I wouldn't be getting one, right now. If I had one, I'd be looking into conversion barrels to take it to 9mm or (more likely) .40S&W. Assuming such exist.

The 45 GAP has the same problem in that regard as the Winchester Super Short Magnums. They have very short actions, but have a magnum bolt face. So all they can be rebarreled to is another WSSM. The slide face on the 45 GAP will only accept a cartidge with the rim diameter of the 45 GAP / 45 ACP, but the action is too short to accept a 45 ACP or 400 Cor-bon. The only thing that might help is a 40 caliber wildcat based on the 45GAP. But with 40 S&W, 400 Cor-Bon, and the 10mm auto already on the scene, I don't think it's likely.

CDW4ME
May 10, 2010, 09:42 PM
Anyone who considers themself a Glock fan should buy a 45 GAP model Glock and help keep the cartridge alive that bears the name of the best pistols.

After purchase, you will discover that the idea has merit and you really like the model 38/39.

Subsequently the 45 GAP will live on.

I did my part.

MTS840
May 10, 2010, 10:11 PM
I'm telling you guys it is the best Glock made by far and the numbers on paper cannot convey the way it handles and shoots.

Agreed. When I got my G38 I could not believe how accurate and controllable it was. I love my G30 and my G21, and I've had 1911s, but this little .45 GAP really is a great round.

Just be open minded and let the gun speak for itself.

Officer's Match
May 10, 2010, 10:20 PM
That's what I've been trying to say. I shoot the G38 markedly better than any other Glock (or any other polymer pistol for that matter). I find that a compelling factor, even if ammo takes more effort to buy. Should I need to defend myself with it, I want the odds in my favor as much as I can have them.

madmedic
May 10, 2010, 10:39 PM
I thought the GAP was a neat idea. .45 ballistics with a glock 17 grip. Even the glock 21 sf has an obviously larger grip than the 17/22. Springfield did a good job narrowing the gap(pun not intended) between their .45 and 9/40 grip, but it's still noticably bigger.

B18C5-EH2
May 10, 2010, 11:08 PM
The problem with the GAP is that people write it off without having ever fired a single round of it.

Is it dead?

No.

Is it "dying?"

If one were to go by the fact that only one manufacturer still currently makes pistols chambered in .45 GAP, then the .45 GAP has been "dying" for years now. It's too subjective to answer for sure.

I'll say this:

If you want a pistol that has excellent accuracy, balance, lower recoil than .40 S&W (frame for frame) and has ballistics that rival .45 ACP then look into the .45 GAP.

- If you want a range gun you might want to steer clear of the .45 GAP.

I say this only because it appears that many areas do not stock .45 GAP with the volume and for the cheap pricing that one can find 9mm luger and .40 S&W. Personally I plink with JHP Speed Gold Dot .45 GAP which I buy for $79.00 per 250rnds. but this is a local in-store deal at a GA gun shop.

- If you want a gun that will impress 99% of the shooting crowd steer clear of the .45 GAP.

Fact is the people that trash the .45 GAP have never owned one, and likely never even shot one. I can always tell who hasn't shot one because people that have shot them and still don't like them usually comment on how well the pistol they shot .45 GAP worked, but they don't like the availability, etc. People that shot one never remark about it's recoil or accuracy if they are listing reasons to avoid .45 GAP.

If you don't want to hear "gun guys" talking trash about your gun, or if you don't want to see sideways looks when you start trying to convince someone that your gun shoots extremely well, steer clear of the .45 GAP.

For me the choice was easy when I was looking for a small conceal/carry pistol that had some punch to it. I wanted a Glock. I wanted the largest round in the smallest package. I got this:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e115/B18C5-EH2/CCW%20comparisons/G39Stubby2.jpg

I've since relegated the Glock 39 seen above to home defense duty as I've fallen for the ultra slim, single stack Kahr Arms pistols. for defensive purposes the .45 GAP is great. For my purpose there's no need to go with another caliber. Makes big holes. Has lots of kinetic energy. Glock doesn't make a .45 ACP in the sub compact (they call the Glock 36 "sub compact" but it is not at all) frame, and I'm not selling my .45 GAP just to get a ballistically close .45 ACP.

johns7022
May 10, 2010, 11:30 PM
I think many peeps believe that that the GAP round is all about making a slimmer grip...some other ideas..

Your typical 45 acp case is only about half full with typical powder, some only 1/5th...that can lead to squib loads...as the powder just lays on it's side when in battery..

Making the round smaller, means less bulk, and possibly, more reliable feeding, as the spring and follower have less overall size, and a little bit of weight to be pushing up...

Already the 45 acp is a difficult round to feed, making it a little smaller, might help, especialy for short stroke sub compact handguns...

Given there is so much wasted space in you typical 45 acp round it makes sense to slim it down, reduce grip size and allow those with smaller hands to take advantage of this great self defense round...for those the bigger hands, that smaller grip, might allow many of those that don't like the big double stacks in favor of single stack 1911s, to take another look at the using a double stack to get the tactical advantage many with 40s and 9mms.

For me, reloading for the 45acp...the GAP would be a no brainer, but I tend to stay with rounds that can be found anywhere on earth, should the need arise, and technicaly, not even the 40 really makes that grade...much less the 45.....

If your just shooting what's in the store, honestly, you'll go broke becoming proficient no matter what you shoot unless it's .22s. So if you do reload, why not take advantage of the GAP...once you have the brass...it's like reloading anything else...

LOUcifer
May 11, 2010, 07:54 AM
Is it dead?

No.

Is it "dying?"

Yes

I will say this...I have shot a .45gap and I enjoyed it...but the cost, availability and popularity (or lack there of) have killed this round and it's quite sad.

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 08:16 AM
I think many peeps believe that that the GAP round is all about making a slimmer grip...some other ideas..

Your typical 45 acp case is only about half full with typical powder, some only 1/5th...that can lead to squib loads...as the powder just lays on it's side when in battery..

Making the round smaller, means less bulk, and possibly, more reliable feeding, as the spring and follower have less overall size, and a little bit of weight to be pushing up...

Already the 45 acp is a difficult round to feed, making it a little smaller, might help, especialy for short stroke sub compact handguns...

Given there is so much wasted space in you typical 45 acp round it makes sense to slim it down, reduce grip size and allow those with smaller hands to take advantage of this great self defense round...for those the bigger hands, that smaller grip, might allow many of those that don't like the big double stacks in favor of single stack 1911s, to take another look at the using a double stack to get the tactical advantage many with 40s and 9mms.

For me, reloading for the 45acp...the GAP would be a no brainer, but I tend to stay with rounds that can be found anywhere on earth, should the need arise, and technicaly, not even the 40 really makes that grade...much less the 45.....

If your just shooting what's in the store, honestly, you'll go broke becoming proficient no matter what you shoot unless it's .22s. So if you do reload, why not take advantage of the GAP...once you have the brass...it's like reloading anything else...
Very reasoned and logical post IMO.

For my purposes, I'd rather the trade off occur "on my time". By that I mean, if the trade off of the GAP is in procuring ammo (which has not been a problem for me, see there's this thing called the internet ;)) but the benefit is improved performance when it's actually shot, well I guess you know by now my choice.

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2010, 09:30 AM
Perhaps a bad choice of words on my part. I simply wanted others to know I used to doubt the GAP's worth until I tried it, particularly in the G38 model.

Yes, but your perception of the 45 GAP's worth based on your experience in shooting it has nothing to do with whether or not it is dead or on the way out. There have been lots of cartridges that a small number of people have liked that failed to have long term commercial viability and while some survive for a prolonged period of time, they tend to get more expensive over time instead of less expensive as the purchasers never get the benefit of economies of scale that comes from large production runs.

By that I mean, if the trade off of the GAP is in procuring ammo (which has not been a problem for me, see there's this thing called the internet )

Perfect. The 45 GAP has done so well that you aren't able to readily find it locally such that you have to turn to the internet.

Simply put, it is a specialty caliber made for a very limited number of guns that are chambered in it.

Just how many makes and models of 45 GAP guns are there?
In the 7 or so years since being introduced, the 45 GAP is chambered in something like 3 Glock models (37/38/39), 2 Springfields (Defender/XD), and that is all I am finding. It has not been a hit with revolvers or carbines either.

45 GAP may not be dead, but is showing a serious failure to thrive.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 09:40 AM
In factory loads, it is not true that the case is only 1/2 to 1/5 full. In most factory loads the case is pretty close to full. What you do at your reloading bench is irrelevant.

The GAP can only duplicate the more pedestrian ACP loads. You can't load a GAP as hot as you can a ACP, period. That's why you don't see any +P GAP loads commercially available.

Shortening the case length doesn't automatically improve reliability. In fact, a shorter case is less stable when being pushed than a longer case. As it stands, the .45 ACP isn't any harder to feed or to design a reliable handgun around than a 9mm or even a .40 S&W. I have no idea where some of this "information" you guys post comes from. :)

With that being said, the GAP is a neat cartridge. I personally have no use for it simply because I don't need yet another caliber to find brass for and to load. So, I've chosen to continue to use the more versatile ACP over the GAP. Not only is the ACP more versatile, but it also has FAR more platform offerings where as the Glock has just one - Glock (yes, the XD GAP has been discontinued based on a little research I did last night).

But again, the coolness factor of the GAP has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. A couple of you have said that we dismiss the cartridge without having ever fired one. That's a bit of a stretch, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But let's say I have dismissed the GAP without having ever seen or fired one, how does that have anything to do with the discussion at hand? We're not talking about a popularity contest here, we're talking about the likelihood the GAP will be around and supported in 30 years.

Given the fact sales are poor and the fact only Glock produces pistols chambering the cartridge, there's a very good chance that all support for the round will be dropped at some point in the not so distant future. If there was any life left in the cartridge at all, other companies would be offering pistols chambering the round. But alas, sales are so poor and there's so little interest in cartridge that they aren't. That's a pretty clear sign that the market isn't interested in the concept, regardless for their reasons why.

So, to the point the OP was inquiring about, there's a very good chance that the GAP round will eventually drift silently into the history books with only a handful of loyalists continuing to reload for their collectible pistols keeping the history alive. In 10 years you may not be able to find a box of factory loads on your local dealers shelves (heck, many of us already can't) and properly formed brass will be harder and harder (not to mention expensive) to come by.

cougar gt-e
May 11, 2010, 10:02 AM
the GAP is a boutique round, always will be. That makes it more expensive to buy, if you are able to find it. Don't expect to be able to buy it at your local walmart or even at most sporting goods stores. Not an issue for reloaders and those that buy online.

I won't be buying it as there are other solutions that are more to my preference. And the vast majority of gun buyers feel the same way, that's why it is going to stay a boutique round.

You will probably be able to always buy rounds.

Charles Ellis
May 11, 2010, 10:05 AM
I never saw any good reason for the 45 GAP cartridge in the first place.The biggest problem with getting a 45 ACP cartridge in a small frame Glock is the magazine.The thickness of the plastic in the mag walls made the grip frame too large.I had a Taurus pt 145 in 45acp that was just as comfortable as my m23 Glock,and it's double stack 45 acp mag made of steel fit very easily in the Glock mag well.I could be wrong,but I always thought that with a change in the magazine and mag release button the 45acp would fit handily in the small frame Glock.

johns7022
May 11, 2010, 11:21 AM
Sturm - The difference between those that actualy shoot firearms on a regular basis and those that talk about it behind avatars and gun counters?

Those that shoot reload. Because you can't buy commerical ammo and shoot 20,000 rds a year...

That said...unless your some Spec op/hit man/drug smuggler looking for a universal round to be found everywhere on earth, legal or black market...it's pretty much moot about what is commerical available at Walmart, in Bulgaria etc, South America etc...

As far as your statement about making +P rounds..it's not true that commerical rounds fill up the case with powder in a 45 acp...that would be like 15-20 grains of powder....and since I do reload, and what is commericaly available completely moot, as I actualy shoot my gun vs talk about it...I can, very easily make a GAP +P round without even trying hard with most powders...but since I see +P rounds as accuracy robbing silliness, and actualy believe in shot placement vs penetrating ten bad guys vs one...a +P round is a dump point to even consider...so all that said...if you think a bigger, bulkier, heavier round will feed better...if you think shooting +P 45 acps are a good idea, if you think that commerical 45 acps are topped off with 20 grains of powder, if you think that everyone is walking into Walmart buying 20,000 rds of GAP ammo per year makes sense...ect...well ....

I don't have a crystal ball on whether the GAP will make it commericaly...we still have a ton of Wildcat rounds out there...who's shooting the 475 Linebaugh? The GAP isn't going anywhere and it's my guess that peeps will warm up to the advantages in grip size and accuracy, that a reduced grip size can give a shooter...it will also end the argument of whether to go down to a 40 or 9mm...because as they say 'if you can shoot a .45...you probably will'

Brian Pfleuger
May 11, 2010, 11:39 AM
The difference between those that actualy shoot firearms on a regular basis and those that talk about it behind avatars and gun counters?

Those that shoot reload. Because you can't buy commerical ammo and shoot 20,000 rds a year...

Interesting opinion. The percentage of reloaders in the shooting community is relatively small. Any cartridge that depends on reloaders for its popularity is DOOMED.

Only reloaders are real "shooters"? Please. Almost no one that that I know that owns firearms reloads.

You don't have to shoot 20,000 rounds a year to be a "shooter".

Do you really think that a round that depends on people who reload AND shoot 20,000 rounds a year really would have a chance at survival?

Any round that has ANY hope of "surviving", with any normal definition of the word, MUST have some reasonable availability of commercial ammo.

B18C5-EH2
May 11, 2010, 11:48 AM
A couple of you have said that we dismiss the cartridge without having ever fired one. That's a bit of a stretch, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion. But let's say I have dismissed the GAP without having ever seen or fired one, how does that have anything to do with the discussion at hand? We're not talking about a popularity contest here, we're talking about the likelihood the GAP will be around and supported in 30 years.

Well I referenced the likelihood that people steering clear of the .45 GAP have likely never given it a chance more so to show why it's not such a popular round in general.

I think the more people steer clear of anything (without having ever given a chance) the more likely the product will be to fizzle out and die.

I've had a recent trade offer for my G39 for a G21SF and it was actually a really hard choice given how amazingly well the G39 shoots. It should be a no brainer for getting rid of a "dying round" for "God's gift to shooters" the .45 ACP, but for some reason it's not been an easy decision. Right now I've still got my little G39 and about 100 rounds of .45 GAP rather than a like-new G21SF in my possession...like I said once you shoot .45 GAP regularly it's hard to want to give it up.

If more people gave it a chance I think they'd like it, and thus more demand, more production to meet that demand, etc. etc.

Ultimately you're right sturg - whether the round is "cool" or not doesn't matter. Perception often rules performance. Right now the perception is that the .45 GAP is a dying round, and in the end it might be a self fulfilling prophecy to say the .45 GAP is a dead round.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 11:52 AM
Sturm - The difference between those that actualy shoot firearms on a regular basis and those that talk about it behind avatars and gun counters?
Do you really want to go there? I shoot every weekend usually and I fire 300-500 rounds per range session. I fired 600 rounds last Sunday. I almost strictly shoot steel plates and do so from a holster. I would put my skill and training up against yours any day of the week. So don't pretend because you pop a few beer cans and dirt clods once a month you're somehow better than everyone else on the board.

Those that shoot reload. Because you can't buy commerical ammo and shoot 20,000 rds a year...
I've been reloading 20+ years so I think I know a thing or two about it. But in my experience, most shooters don't reload. Only a very small fraction of the shooting public reload vs. buying ammo. An even smaller percentage carry reloads for personal defense vs. factory rounds.

That said...unless your some Spec op/hit man/drug smuggler looking for a universal round to be found everywhere on earth, legal or black market...it's pretty much moot about what is commerical available at Walmart, in Bulgaria etc, South America etc...
Surely you can't be this ignorant. So only drug dealers and hit men seek out factory loads, eh? I'll continue to respond to your goofy post despite your having destroyed any credibility you might have had at the beginning of this post.

As far as your statement about making +P rounds..it's not true that commerical rounds fill up the case with powder in a 45 acp...that would be like 15-20 grains of powder....
I said mostly full, I didn't say "full up". And you're on crack if you think any factory load has a 1/5 full case full of powder.

Here, I just shot this pic of my reloading room. How many grains do you think are in this .45 ACP case? Do you see that red arrow? What do you think that's pointing to? Once you figure it out, I would enjoy reading your response.

Hint: It's no where near 15-20 grains of powder in that case.

http://www.intempusphotography.com/photos/863894657_vyh7T-L.jpg

and since I do reload, and what is commericaly available completely moot, as I actualy shoot my gun vs talk about it...I can, very easily make a GAP +P round without even trying hard with most powders...but since I see +P rounds as accuracy robbing silliness, and actualy believe in shot placement vs penetrating ten bad guys vs one...a +P round is a dump point to even consider...so all that said...if you think a bigger, bulkier, heavier round will feed better...if you think shooting +P 45 acps are a good idea, if you think that commerical 45 acps are topped off with 20 grains of powder, if you think that everyone is walking into Walmart buying 20,000 rds of GAP ammo per year makes sense...ect...well ....
More proof you know absolutely nothing about +P rounds, reloading or even firearms for the most part.

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 12:20 PM
Perfect. The 45 GAP has done so well that you aren't able to readily find it locally such that you have to turn to the internet.

Oops, guess what one exposes one's self to when they assume? I buy all my factory load ammo online because I work far too hard for my money to spend it wastefully. If I want to pay excessively, I can buy 45 GAP from the same local stores where I can buy 9mm or 45acp (got no interest in 40SW after shooting my first GAP).

Look folks, I'm in no way saying the GAP is anything but a specific purpose cartridge, and the point about its lagging support outside of Glock is true (and a shame - shoot a 40SW and a GAP, apples to apples and side by side, and see if my point isn't valid too).

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 12:28 PM
Officers Match, we can agree on one thing - the .40 S&W is worthless. :)

I would rather have the .45 GAP take off and be popular and do away with the .40 S&W altogether... and give me my 10mm popularity back!

:D

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 12:32 PM
Oh, and OM... which one are you? A Hitman or Drug Dealer? I ask because you admitted to buying factory ammo online vs. reloading.

I knew you were a thug.

I guess you could be Spec Ops... are you an operator?

Brian Pfleuger
May 11, 2010, 12:33 PM
Look folks, I'm in no way saying the GAP is anything but a specific purpose cartridge, and the point about its lagging support outside of Glock is true (and a shame - shoot a 40SW and a GAP, apples to apples and side by side, and see if my point isn't valid too).

I'm sure that the GAP is a fine round, and I have no problem with so-called "specific purpose" rounds. I carry a 357sig. The 357sig is to the "light and fast" crowd what the GAP is to the "heavy and slow" crowd. Except, the 357sig is ever increasing in popularity and the GAP is declining.

I agree with your assessment of the 40SW, except I like lighter and faster instead of slower and heavier.

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 12:59 PM
Oh, and OM... which one are you? A Hitman or Drug Dealer? I ask because you admitted to buying factory ammo online vs. reloading.

I knew you were a thug.

I guess you could be Spec Ops... are you an operator?

:D

Well, I can't tell ya' 'cause I'd hafta'... ahh, nevermind. :D

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 01:07 PM
I would rather have the .45 GAP take off and be popular and do away with the .40 S&W altogether... and give me my 10mm popularity back!

Which would be possible if more 22/23/27 shooters would honestly compare them to a 37/38/39 at the range and realistically evaluate the importance of accurately and quickly placing the first 7-10 rounds vs subsequent rounds (for those unable/unwilling to carry backup mag(s). And of course other firearm makers offering GAP's would help too. Example, how about a CZ75 that spits 45 caliber 230gr rounds? That too would be cool.

mavracer
May 11, 2010, 01:21 PM
Look folks, I'm in no way saying the GAP is anything but a specific purpose cartridge,
which is the exact reason for it's declining popularity.the only thing it lets you do is shoot .45 cal bullets from a Glock 17/19/22/23 size frame.There are also some problems inherent to what they did to achieve this.
Balisticly there is no advantage over a .45 acp and when you put the fat little bullets in a thick plastic double stack mag designed for a 9mm what happens to capacity? A Glock 38 has the same capacity as my nice slim gripped commander length 1911.

There are just too many other options, the .45 gap has seen it's peak of popularity.But as long as Officer's Match has air to breath It'll never die.LOL

Example, how about a CZ75 that spits 45 caliber 230gr rounds?
Great another 7-8 round full size .45auto

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 01:37 PM
Balisticly there is no advantage over a .45 acp and when you put the fat little bullets in a thick plastic double stack mag designed for a 9mm what happens to capacity? A Glock 38 has the same capacity as my nice slim gripped commander length 1911.

Not quite true on either point. The GAP actually does better than the ACP as barrel length decreases, making it a better choice for smaller guns - which is what it's for. Also, as I've had quite a few G38's and many more magazines, I feel comfortable disagreeing with Glock's own spec's in one instance: all my G38 eight round magazines function perfectly with 9 rounds plus one in the chamber. Even without a backup magazine, I'd be comfortable with 10 rounds of 45 caliber, 200gr Gold Dots.

BTW, I also have a commander sized 1911 that I'm fond of:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/sly250r/IMG_0251-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/sly250r/Baer/IMG_0249-1.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e131/sly250r/Baer/Baer%20Grips/TDPESM04.jpg

roman3
May 11, 2010, 01:56 PM
Even on the Internet 45GAP ammo is awfully hit and miss.

Ammo to go has Speer Gold Dots, sometimes.
Ammo to go has HST, rarely but sometimes.

Currently the only option at Ammo to go is Magtech for both SD and plinking.

SG ammo has nothing. Ammoman has nothing.



At the search engine

http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.45_GAP

Not a very good selection at all.

If it were more consistent I would have pulled the trigger on a Glock 39 at least and maybe a 38. But...

pesta2
May 11, 2010, 02:01 PM
I tell you what your all full of it, I am waiting for Glock to chamber the .45 Colt, that will do away with both the ACP and GAP!

cerberus65
May 11, 2010, 02:25 PM
Is the .45 gap dead?
No

I was wondering if I bought a .45 gap pistol if I will not be able to get ammo in the future.

For the short term, most likely, ammo will be available.

Will I still be able to get ammo for the next 30 years?
My crystal ball is saying "better get a reloading press". Probably better buy whatever brass you can find too.

I have never shot a single .45 GAP round nor do I expect to ever get to. I know a bunch of people with guns (lots of guns) but not a single one has one chambered in .45 GAP.

It may very well be the best round ever invented. But it's only available in one brand. That really doesn't speak well for its long term viability.

Does that really suck for the folks that love the round? Absolutely. Add me to the list of those that feel bad on their account. But what can you do?

B18C5-EH2
May 11, 2010, 02:31 PM
I buy all of my ammo locally - 9mm luger, .40 S&W, and .45 GAP.

You guys want to buy some crack?

Officer's Match
May 11, 2010, 03:05 PM
:D

Wait a minute, I'm supposed to be the one selling it. Or is it busting you for selling it? Oh well, whatever...:D

johns7022
May 11, 2010, 04:03 PM
Sturm - In your pic you have a cartridge half full of powder, that's how mine looks when using Universal...and you can hardly see it using Titegroup or Clays...so if you think all that extra case space is a good thing...then you need to learn a little bit more about reloading..maybe in another 20 years you will figure it out...

Regardless if 99% of the peeps out there shoot commercial, or that they can't shoot, or that they only put 50 rds a year through guns they never clean....who cares? If your shooting alot, your reloading, period..

I personaly won't choose the GAP round as I get 45 acp brass for free, and I won't buy another POS Glock...which is the real reason why the GAP round might actualy be doomed.

Simply put, if you shoot GAP, your shooting a Glock, and if your shooting a Glock your probably on Prozac, pulling your hair out trying to reload for it...

Which means your actualy trying to buy 45 GAP commericaly, which means it costs too much and it's too hard to find, which means you won't go shooting, which means you will probably sell the gun....

Brian Pfleuger
May 11, 2010, 04:15 PM
if your shooting a Glock your probably on Prozac, pulling your hair out trying to reload for it...

I'm curious why you say that?

My first venture into reloading was for a Glock and 357sig. Neither have given me any problems.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 05:15 PM
Sturm - In your pic you have a cartridge half full of powder, that's how mine looks when using Universal...
Buzzt, WRONG.

The case is darn near full of powder. You don't top off a case and cram a bullet in. That's a recipe for disaster. It's not black powder, that's smokeless my friend. That red arrow I talked about? That's where the bullet base ends up after it's seated - right above that powder line.

Maybe in 20 years you'll figure out how all this stuff works, right now you're talking out your keester and probably don't even have a reloading press. If you do, you're a danger to yourself and everyone around you.

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2010, 05:15 PM
By that I mean, if the trade off of the GAP is in procuring ammo (which has not been a problem for me, see there's this thing called the internet )

Oops, guess what one exposes one's self to when they assume? I buy all my factory load ammo online because I work far too hard for my money to spend it wastefully. If I want to pay excessively, I can buy 45 GAP from the same local stores where I can buy 9mm or 45acp (got no interest in 40SW after shooting my first GAP).

Glad you can find it locally, but choose to buy on the internet. Folks I know with .45 GAP have had troubles finding it locally on any consistent basis and as roman3 points out, it can be hard to find on the internet as well.

The bottom line is that there just around that many guns chambered in .45 GAP to justify large production runs of the caliber and even before the current political situation folks had issues with getting it on a consistent basis as well.

And of course other firearm makers offering GAP's would help too.

And that just isn't really happening, is it? Glock and Springfield seem to be homesteading on the caliber. So in the 7 years since its introduction, .45 GAP has added one manufacturer.

I really liked this comment from Springfield talking about .45 GAP's future...
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory22.php

If there were any question about the future of the new .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) cartridge, it should have been answered at the 2004 SHOT Show when Springfield Inc. unveiled its XD-45LE Tactical pistol chambered for the new abbreviated .45-caliber number. With that unveiling, the GAP could no longer be seen as a Glock-only proposition.

Contrary to Springfield's proclamation, there is still very much doubt about GAP's future.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 05:17 PM
Simply put, if you shoot GAP, your shooting a Glock, and if your shooting a Glock your probably on Prozac, pulling your hair out trying to reload for it...

Yet another dumbs*** comment based on sheer ignorance of reloading and Glocks. Why would anyone pull their hair out reloading for a Glock? It's no more difficult than reloading for any other handgun. I shoot nothing but reloads out of my Glock, the exact same reloads I shoot out of my 1911's and XD.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 05:20 PM
If there were any question about the future of the new .45 GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) cartridge, it should have been answered at the 2004 SHOT Show when Springfield Inc. unveiled its XD-45LE Tactical pistol chambered for the new abbreviated .45-caliber number. With that unveiling, the GAP could no longer
Note that this article was written after the 2004 SHOT Show (6 years ago). That pistol has come and gone from Springfield's product line.

Action_Can_Do
May 11, 2010, 06:03 PM
Peetzakilla
You're wrong about a cartridge that relies on reloaders being doomed. Such a cartridge may never be popular, but they don't just die. Cartridges tend to die very hard. The 500 Linebaugh, Supermagnums, Wildey magnums, and for several decades the Weatherby magnums all rely or have relied on reloaders to keep them alive. And I'm talking about cartridges that are quite old and never came close to having the number of guns out there that the 45 gap did.

vladan
May 11, 2010, 06:10 PM
One thing is that we argue this round in american contents. Many of you don't know, but there are countries with policies that prohibits sale/use of hollow points. If I'd be looking for self defense caliber say back home, this round would fit the bill ... .45ACP ballistic with small concealable frame and low recoil... Agree, not much use here in US, but there is a market beyond the US folks, GAP is far from dead.

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 06:36 PM
40AE. Anyone remember that cartridge? How's it doing these days?

LOUcifer
May 11, 2010, 06:51 PM
Note that this article was written after the 2004 SHOT Show (6 years ago). That pistol has come and gone from Springfield's product line.

Indeed an old article...BUT the pistol is STILL listed on Springfield website

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 07:18 PM
Try ordering one.

johnwilliamson062
May 11, 2010, 07:18 PM
I honestly thought all these huge sales on the 45 GAP Glocks were b/c Glock finally gave up on it. I didn't look further into it b/c I don't care.
I don't know anyone who owns, plans to buy, or even talks about a 45 GAP pistol.
On the other hand, PRVI PARTISAN still makes a batch of 7.5 swiss eery once in a while and the price isn't too bad.

Double Naught Spy
May 11, 2010, 07:24 PM
Note that this article was written after the 2004 SHOT Show (6 years ago). That pistol has come and gone from Springfield's product line.

Yes, indeed, you were making a point one step further than mine. My point was that I can't find anyone else OTHER than Springfield with the .45 GAP and now you point out that they aren't even making them now. So the commercial offerings in .45 GAP are actually declining. Nice.

roman3
May 11, 2010, 07:50 PM
40AE. Anyone remember that cartridge? How's it doing these days?

Ooops... That would be the 41AE and it is a zombie round these days, not for them but one of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Action_Express

Thanks for playing! ;)

Crosshair
May 11, 2010, 08:07 PM
I tell you what your all full of it, I am waiting for Glock to chamber the .45 Colt, that will do away with both the ACP and GAP!
Yea, right, a Glock that can use lead bullets without grenading?:rolleyes:

Seems like some people from the "Politics" tab from fark.com have come over into this thread.:eek:

Sturmgewehre
May 11, 2010, 08:08 PM
Ahh, yes the 41AE. The point is the round is deader than a doornail, and rounds do die despite being pretty popular. :) I saw an old IMI Baby Eagle kit at the local dealers recently, someone brought it in on trade. It had 4 boxes of original IMI ammo. What a blast from the past.

Brian Pfleuger
May 11, 2010, 08:24 PM
Peetzakilla
You're wrong about a cartridge that relies on reloaders being doomed.

It depends on what you mean by "doomed", or as I explained in my previous post, how you define "survival".

If you consider that a cartridge "survives" when ANYONE, anywhere is still using it then, yes, I suppose that the 45GAP will likely "survive" for decades or longer.

However, "survival" in the context of these discussions generally is synonymous with "commercially viable". Using that definition, any cartridge which depends on handloaders for its popularity is DOOMED.

Action_Can_Do
May 11, 2010, 09:02 PM
Peetzakilla
If commercial viability is the standard which determines a cartridge's success, than all but maybe the top ten handgun and rifle cartridges are doomed. People don't really seem to realize it but unless you're talking about the absolute most popular cartridges, finding more than one or two companies that chamber a cartridge is pretty hard. Not many companies chamber the 300 Weatherby. Weatherby and occasionally Remington or Ruger will do a limited run but that's it. Nobody is saying the 300 Weatherby is on it's way out though. I've been in the market for a 260 Remington lately. I was stunned to find out how hard it is to actually find a company that chambers it.

I personally believe that the 45 gap has a promising future as a pocket pistol chambering. Of course, I could be wrong.

johnwilliamson062
May 11, 2010, 09:38 PM
...Of course, when I mention wanting a 1911 in 38 Super everyone I know IRL gives me a weird look and some ask who makes a 38 special 1911.

Brian Pfleuger
May 11, 2010, 09:52 PM
Peetzakilla
If commercial viability is the standard which determines a cartridge's success, than all but maybe the top ten handgun and rifle cartridges are doomed.

That's probably not far from true. "Success" means common and known. Owned, used and admired by the "select few" is no measure of success.

Is a car model that's kept "alive" by a small group of dedicated collectors and restorers considered "successful"?

Is a movie that becomes a "cult classic" and has never been seen by 95% of audiences called a success?

Why would firearms/cartridges be any different? If it's not commercially available on some reasonable scale, if no one (or only one) chambers a gun for it and virtually no one outside the "inner circle" of firearms enthusiasts has ever heard of a round, can you really call it successful?

How many truly successful rounds are there? Not that many. Certainly far more rifle than handgun, but still not all that many.

"Existence" is not "success".

Action_Can_Do
May 11, 2010, 11:43 PM
Peetzakilla
It really does depend on how you gauge success. Is a movie that enjoys a wide showing and makes a lot of money successful, even if it is a piece of (cough Michael Bay cough) crap? Or is a small independent film that is a masterpiece but not mainstream or dumbed-down enough to appeal to most successful? As a film collector, I would say the latter. However, not being widely successful and being dead are two different things. The 45 gap has gotten quite a bit more police attention than the 41 magnum ever did. I would say that that alone is no small amount of success.

Part of what makes it so hard to judge just whether or not a cartridge is successful is that it sometimes takes time for a cartridge to find it's fan base. The 40S&W took more than 10 years before anyone would give it any credit and the fact that the earliest guns made for it had accuracy issues didn't help. The 45-120 wasn't the least bit popular when it was created. Now, over a century after the cartridges "death", it has a new and growing fan base with black powder shooters and cowboy shooters. I suppose we just have different definitions of success and death.;)

publius
May 11, 2010, 11:58 PM
Well, I learned something new today. I thought it really was dead. I didn't think anyone was chambering it anymore and I sure didn't know any agencies used it. Weird round.

DonutGuy
May 12, 2010, 07:35 AM
Even on the Internet 45GAP ammo is awfully hit and miss.

Ammo to go has Speer Gold Dots, sometimes.
Ammo to go has HST, rarely but sometimes.


Show me an online ammo source that has plenty of HST in all calibers in stock. HST's have been extremely popular since they came out.

Officer's Match
May 12, 2010, 07:45 AM
I've got plenty of HST in GAP, almost as much as I have of Gold Dot.

roman3
May 12, 2010, 08:32 AM
I've got plenty of HST in GAP, almost as much as I have of Gold Dot.

Order some more today then. You have a supply but someone buying a Glock 45 Gap today won't be able to get it, and who knows how long it will take them.

Show me an online ammo source that has plenty of HST in all calibers in stock. HST's have been extremely popular since they came out.

I would bet the 9mm, 40 and 45 ACP HST will reappear (and disappear) faster than the 45 GAP.

Also the Winchester Ranger line used to have 45 GAP, its not listed anywhere anymore. Do they still make it?

cougar gt-e
May 12, 2010, 09:27 AM
I checked on http://www.ammoengine.com/find/ammo/.45_GAP and got 18 hits. Here's the table, sorry if it looks bad. The equivalent 45acp search shows 60+ hits. The eyeball average price looks to be about the same to the GAP being a bit higher, but not astronomically higher. I'm not going to rush out and buy one, but I wouldn't be afraid of it turning into another .41AE either.

Manufacturer Description Grain Bullet Category Rounds/Box Price/Box Price/Round Location
1. Magtech Full Metal Jacket 230 Full Metal Jacket 50 $24.97 $0.50 SportsmansGuide
2. Speer Lawman Speer Total Metal Jacket Flat Nose 200 Total Metal Jacket 50 $27.17 $0.54 SportsmansGuide
3. Winchester Super-X Silvertip Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 50 $39.99 $0.80 CheaperThanDirt
4. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
5. Double Tap Full Metal Jacket Flat Point 230 Full Metal Jacket 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
6. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
7. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 200 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
8. Magtech Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.15 $0.86 CheaperThanDirt
9. Magtech Hunting Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.15 $0.86 CheaperThanDirt
10. Guardian Guardian Gold Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.67 $0.88 SportsmansGuide
11. Guardian Guardian Gold Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.67 $0.88 SportsmansGuide
12. Winchester Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 50 $45.47 $0.91 SportsmansGuide
13. Magtech Hunting Solid Copper Hollow Point Solid Point 165 Solid Copper 20 $22.85 $1.14 CheaperThanDirt
14. Magtech First Defense Solid Copper Hollow Point 165 Hollow Point 20 $23.67 $1.18 SportsmansGuide
15. Cor®Bon Full Metal Jacket 165 Full Metal Jacket 20 $25.40 $1.27 CheaperThanDirt
16. Cor®Bon DPX Solid Copper Lead Free Solid Point 160 Lead Free 20 $32.14 $1.61 CheaperThanDirt
17. Magsafe Frangible 96 Frangible 8 $18.17 $2.27 SportsmansGuide
18. Magsafe SWAT Frangible 68 Frangible 8 $18.27 $2.28 SportsmansGuide

LOUcifer
May 12, 2010, 09:37 AM
Also the Winchester Ranger line used to have 45 GAP, its not listed anywhere anymore. Do they still make it?

I have a box LOL...don't know why but it's in the back of my safe :)

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/mitsu3k/Droid/e1fb5361.jpg

Sturmgewehre
May 12, 2010, 09:46 AM
1. Magtech Full Metal Jacket 230 Full Metal Jacket 50 $24.97 $0.50 SportsmansGuide
2. Speer Lawman Speer Total Metal Jacket Flat Nose 200 Total Metal Jacket 50 $27.17 $0.54 SportsmansGuide
3. Winchester Super-X Silvertip Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 50 $39.99 $0.80 CheaperThanDirt
4. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
5. Double Tap Full Metal Jacket Flat Point 230 Full Metal Jacket 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
6. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
7. Double Tap Bonded Core Jacketed Hollow Point 200 Bonded Core 50 $41.50 $0.83 DoubleTap
8. Magtech Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.15 $0.86 CheaperThanDirt
9. Magtech Hunting Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.15 $0.86 CheaperThanDirt
10. Guardian Guardian Gold Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.67 $0.88 SportsmansGuide
11. Guardian Guardian Gold Jacketed Hollow Point 230 Jacketed Hollow Point 20 $17.67 $0.88 SportsmansGuide
12. Winchester Jacketed Hollow Point 185 Jacketed Hollow Point 50 $45.47 $0.91 SportsmansGuide
13. Magtech Hunting Solid Copper Hollow Point Solid Point 165 Solid Copper 20 $22.85 $1.14 CheaperThanDirt
14. Magtech First Defense Solid Copper Hollow Point 165 Hollow Point 20 $23.67 $1.18 SportsmansGuide
15. Cor®Bon Full Metal Jacket 165 Full Metal Jacket 20 $25.40 $1.27 CheaperThanDirt
16. Cor®Bon DPX Solid Copper Lead Free Solid Point 160 Lead Free 20 $32.14 $1.61 CheaperThanDirt
17. Magsafe Frangible 96 Frangible 8 $18.17 $2.27 SportsmansGuide
18. Magsafe SWAT Frangible 68 Frangible 8 $18.27 $2.28 SportsmansGuide
If you distill that down, there's 7 manufacturers there. Not that it matters all that much, but that's pretty small.

Edited to add: And it looks like you have mostly defensive loads and only one (Magtech) target load offering. Most of these are specialty ammo makers like Double Tap, Guardian, MagSafe and Corbon. Magtech is the only generic range ammo maker listed. There's no Winchester Whitebox, Remington, UMC, PMC, etc. listed.

How many .41AE manufacturers were there? I can't find any info now days as to what companies produced factory ammo outside if IMI.

But I do know who made pistols.

We've had Glock and SA XD offering pistols in .45 GAP - that's two manufacturers.

With the .41AE there was Tanfoglio, Beretta, Jericho, Magnum Research and Taurus making the guns with conversion kits available for Colt, Glock and Browning pistols.

I would say the .41AE was quite a bit more popular than .45 GAP at one point.

Brian Pfleuger
May 12, 2010, 10:03 AM
Peetzakilla
It really does depend on how you gauge success. Is a movie that enjoys a wide showing and makes a lot of money successful, even if it is a piece of (cough Michael Bay cough) crap? Or is a small independent film that is a masterpiece but not mainstream or dumbed-down enough to appeal to most successful? As a film collector, I would say the latter.

Well, if that's the measure of success then every cartridge, and every movie, ever released has been a success. Someone, some where thinks that they're all fabulous. I'm certain that Michael Bay believes his movies are all works of art. So, if he thinks they're great then they're successful. It shouldn't matter if 3 people or 300,000,000 people love them. So long as there's a small circle of users or supporters, "it" is successful no matter what "it" happens to be. I suppose that's the same reason why everything from an elephant splashing paint on canvas to a crucifix submerged in urine is considered "art" these days.

As such, the 45GAP is a rousing success story. Glock should make another round, buoyed on by the "success" of the 45GAP. Maybe the 9mmGAP? After all, there's got to be dozens, maybe hundreds, of people who will use it and proclaim it the greatest round in history just because it says "Glock". Instant success.

On the other hand....

Success to almost everyone means market based success. If Glock looks at the 45GAP from that angle, I'm pretty sure that they have no plans for another round.

Officer's Match
May 12, 2010, 11:05 AM
I would say the .41AE was quite a bit more popular than .45 GAP at one point.

That's an arguable point for sure. Depends on one's definition of popular. Any State LEO agencies ever adopt the AE? I'm not aware of any, although I've certainly been wrong before.

There was a notable pistol evaluation where a state police agency (Georgia IIRC) had officers test Glock 22's and 23's along side 37's and 38's. Literally every single one chose the GAP after A/B-ing them against the 40SW.

Action_Can_Do
May 12, 2010, 11:09 AM
Peetzakilla
I think you've just stumbled upon genius. 9mm gap? It would be like the 357 sig on steroids! Maybe something in the area of a 125 gr. bullet at 1600fps? I wouldn't want to see the psi rating though...

You've said that by my measure of success, everything is a success. I suppose that's true to an extent. By your perspective virtually everything ever made has been a failure. It's just not that simple. Would you consider the 45 acp a big success? Most Americans would. If you look at the 45 acp from the world's perspective, it's a dismal flop. It's only really popular in one country and doesn't come close to the world-wide popularity of the 9mm parabellum. That doesn't mean the 45 acp is doomed however.;)

Brian Pfleuger
May 12, 2010, 11:10 AM
There was a notable pistol evaluation where a state police agency (Georgia IIRC) had officers test Glock 22's and 23's along side 37's and 38's. Literally ever single chose the GAP after A/B-ing them against the 40SW.

That's hardly fair! That's like saying "Pick Your Favorite:":D:D

DonutGuy
May 12, 2010, 11:13 AM
I'm having trouble deciding between the two...:p, and what happened to selma hayek?

roman3
May 12, 2010, 11:42 AM
I have a box LOL...don't know why but it's in the back of my safe


Yes but do they still make it or is it in special runs?


I think you've just stumbled upon genius. 9mm gap? It would be like the 357 sig on steroids! Maybe something in the area of a 125 gr. bullet at 1600fps? I wouldn't want to see the psi rating though...


In 1988, IMI also developed a 9 mm Action Express, which was a .41 AE necked down to 9 mm. It offered a much larger case capacity than the standard 9 mm case, allowing velocities that matched that of the .357 Magnum when loaded with light bullets. This move anticipated the parallel development of the .357 SIG from the .40 S&W in 1994.


9mm Action Express Reloading Data
Bullet (grs.) MV ME Source
115 JHP 1825 850 Action Arms
124 JHP 1225 415 Action Arms
124 JHP 1530 645 Action Arms

Brian Pfleuger
May 12, 2010, 12:03 PM
You've said that by my measure of success, everything is a success. I suppose that's true to an extent. By your perspective virtually everything ever made has been a failure. It's just not that simple. Would you consider the 45 acp a big success? Most Americans would. If you look at the 45 acp from the world's perspective, it's a dismal flop. It's only really popular in one country and doesn't come close to the world-wide popularity of the 9mm parabellum. That doesn't mean the 45 acp is doomed however.

You're right. By my definition almost every round ever invented would be a failure. Guess what? THEY ARE! There have been literally hundreds, probably a few thousand, different cartridges over the last century plus. 99.9%, or more, of them have been complete, utter failures.

So far as including the whole world in your definition of success, I frankly think that's ridiculous. NO round is successful in that regard, except whatever weapons the chinese army is equipped with, since their numbers easily overwhelm the entire rest of the world outside the USA.

On the other hand, a round that is successful "only" in the USA has captured what, 75%? 50%, 90% (I don't know) of the entire free worlds firearms enthusiasts. Success in the USA is success.

Mike Irwin
May 12, 2010, 12:53 PM
Off the top of my head, I can think of only one TRULY dead handgun cartridge, for which it's impossible to find loaded ammunition, for which brass is virtually non-existent, and for which very few guns are available...

The 9mm Federal.

Long-obsolete cartridges have a very funny way of springing back to life.

A few good examples?

.45 Schofield, .44 Russian, .44 Colt.

Sturmgewehre
May 12, 2010, 01:36 PM
Long-obsolete cartridges have a very funny way of springing back to life.

A few good examples?

.45 Schofield, .44 Russian, .44 Colt.
If Cowboy Action Shooting hadn't caught on, these would still be dead. It's kind of a unique case that brought them back to life. It wasn't any particular quality of the cartridge that revived them, it was their place in history that caught modern reenactors attention.

They're making replicas of Spencer rifles, Colt Lightening rifles, LaMat revolvers and other odd-ball designs from years gone by due to the CAS phenomena. None of these dinosaurs would be revived today if it weren't for their historical interest.

Maybe in 100 years there will be a G38 Action Shooting club that takes off like CAS did... but I wouldn't hold my breath. :D

ClydeFrog
May 12, 2010, 01:58 PM
As for the posted remarks that a popular round or a successful caliber would not last or have a long term market, I highly disagree.
If a new handgun caliber or bullet design sold well and US firearms companies put out new models in the caliber that sold well(or sold as well as other sizes; .40/9mm/.45acp) then it would last for years.
I honestly would not put the .45GAP in that position just yet. Working US law enforcement officers who T&E the .45GAP may like it or want to collectively issue it but I'm sure that measure is based on a few factors(marksmanship, power levels, feeding-cycle, weight, etc). I was reading a new popular gun press item last night of a LE agency in GA that picked the Glock 21SF/30SF over the .45GAP. The sworn LEOs wanted the .45acp more than the .45GAP.
I saw a few .45GAP ammunition types for sale here; www.Doubletapammo.com . It's not cheap but prices for most handgun calibers are crazy high.

CF

Mike Irwin
May 12, 2010, 02:32 PM
"If Cowboy Action Shooting hadn't caught on, these would still be dead."

And that disproves my point that those cartridges are alive again..... how?

I don't see anywhere anyone saying that to be considered alive again that a cartridge can only be resurrected via a broad groundswell of interest across all shooting disciplines.

Just how those cartridges came back to life isn't important.

The important fact is that they are now being manufactured again after many years of morbidity; hence my point that few cartridges are ever truly dead.

Playing the IF - WELL - THEN game when assessing something that has already happened, instead of something that might happen, isn't particularly helpful.


But, if you want to get a little more current....


The .44 Special.

At one point that cartridge was about as dead as it could get. No guns had been chambered for it in many years, and it didn't seem as if it was going to be coming back any time soon.

Then Charter Arms decided that it was a pretty good round for a big bore bulldog type revolver.

Most of the industry scoffed, but it was a shoe in the door.

Then Smith & Wesson, Taurus, and Rossi all brought the round back in defensive type handguns.

Then the Cowboy Action Shooting fraternity got hold of it, as well.

A dead round, brought back to life by a broad-based movement, not just by a small group of people who run around in leather chaps and call themselves funny names.

Sturmgewehre
May 12, 2010, 02:37 PM
Just how those cartridges came back to life isn't important.
Perhaps not to you, but to me it is.

Again, if CAS hadn't cropped up a whole slew of antique cartridges and firearms would still be in their graves. It's not like a sport such as CAS springs up every day. It's happened exactly... well, once.

Comparing something like the .41AE to the .44 Russian is a bit off base in my estimation since it's highly unlikely a .41AE Action Shooting club will surface in the years to come. The same is true for the GAP. If it dies, I seriously doubt it will be resurrected a 100 years from now by a group of historical reenactors.

If you don't agree, so be it.

Brian Pfleuger
May 12, 2010, 03:00 PM
We're all still using different definitions of "alive" and "dead".


In my estimation, if a round is not on the shelf in at least most "big box" sporting goods stores.... Academy, Bass Pro, Gander, Cabelas, etc...., then it's on life support, at best. Personally, I'd say it's dead.

The V-A-S-T majority of shooters get their ammo at those places, or places like them. If you can't buy commercial ammo in some significant way, a cartridge is dead or dying. Even if it's available with some ease on the 'net it still has a tenuous hold on life, at best.

How many shooters are involved in CAS? It's a tiny percentage. Does that count as being "alive"? Well, maybe. If those shooters use enough commercial ammo that supplies are available to OTHER shooters at stores then maybe it counts as alive. If not, it's just another Attack of the Killer Tomatoes.

crockett007
May 12, 2010, 04:16 PM
It will die a long and painful death like the .357 SIG IMHO

Brian Pfleuger
May 12, 2010, 04:57 PM
It will die a long and painful death like the .357 SIG IMHO

Except the Sig is NOT dead or dying.

Ammo for it IS available in almost every store.

AT LEAST, 7 companies make a firearm chambered in it.


The 10mm and the 357sig are here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future. The GAP is not, and never was.

Mike Irwin
May 12, 2010, 05:07 PM
"It's not like a sport such as CAS springs up every day. It's happened exactly... well, once."

Then how do you explain rounds like the .32-20, the .45 Colt, the .45-70, and others?

Rounds that were dead, but came back INDEPENDENTLY of CAS.

Then there's the fabled 16 gauge. At one time it was virtually impossible to find 16 gauge shells, and no guns had been chambered for it in years.

Now you're able to find 16 gauge value packs alongside 20 and 12 gauge value packs, and most of the major shotgun makers are now chambering it again.

6.5 and .350 Remington Magnums. Obsolete in the late 1980s. Back to life in the 2000s. Not a tremendous life, but still, back to life. Those certainly don't find much use in CAS competition.

Or, perhaps most interesting of all, the 5mm Remington Rimfire Magnum. So dead and gone that 50 round boxes of ammunition were selling at gunshows for $125 or more. Being loaded again, and there are rumors of at least one maker looking at chambering it in their rimfire line up again.

Cartridges are very, very odd creatures. What can be counted as dead and gone one day can come back with surprising strength the next.

ClydeFrog
May 12, 2010, 05:11 PM
All these posts claiming the .357sig as dead are greatly exgagerated, ;).
Major gun companies & ammunition makers want to make $$$. If a caliber or bullet type sells, they will sell it. Big box stores or what dealers want is not as important as what paying customers/public service agencies request.
If a large LE agency requests 1.4mil rounds of .357sig or .45GAP like Winchester got from DHS/ICE-CBP they will keep selling it.

Mike Irwin
May 12, 2010, 05:16 PM
"All these posts claiming the .357sig as dead are greatly exgagerated..."

To be perfectly honest, a lot of what I see in regards to the .357 Sig is anger transference.

".357 Sig? HOW DARE they bring out a round to compete with my beloved [insert pet cartridge here]! I HOPE IT DIES! I WANT IT DEAD! And I'm going to hold my breath until it goes away forever (breathing only when I can badmouth the cartridge as unnecessary, useless, stupid, pointless, etc. as a means of making me feel better about the personal insult to my favorite cartridge.)"

Then again, I never did all that well in abnormal psych, so I might be a LOT closer to the truth than I initially suspect...

Action_Can_Do
May 12, 2010, 05:52 PM
Mike
I can add another cartridge to the list that has truly kicked the bucket. The 375 Supermagnum.

LOUcifer
May 12, 2010, 06:29 PM
".357 Sig? HOW DARE they bring out a round to compete with my beloved [insert pet cartridge here]! I HOPE IT DIES! I WANT IT DEAD! And I'm going to hold my breath until it goes away forever (breathing only when I can badmouth the cartridge as unnecessary, useless, stupid, pointless, etc. as a means of making me feel better about the personal insult to my favorite cartridge.)"

LMAO!!!

.357Sig kicks arse...it hurts to spend the $29 at wally world for it but you gotta do what you gotta do for the things you love :)

PS. For a "dead" round the .357Sig sure has a plentiful stock at my neighborhood WalMart

mikejonestkd
May 12, 2010, 06:47 PM
Many people have made good points but it seems that everyone has a different definition of what " dead " means...

on one end of the argument at hand is: If you count the rounds that you can form brass for and still find components ( although at a premium price ) for then all of them are still viable cartridges, and none are truly " dead".

At the other end you have people that think this: If you only include cartridges that you can easily find at walmart, Midway, sportsman's, cabelas, or gander mountain then a whole slew of them are either dead or on their last legs...

I don't care if the GAP is popular or not, if you like it then buy it. If you don't like it then choose from a bunch of other cartridges that you do want to own.

Now, can anyone find 218 bee ammo for me? How about .219 zipper? How about factory .264 WM or .284? anyone seen .307 win lately on a shelf? LOL

Double Naught Spy
May 12, 2010, 06:54 PM
Okay, after checking Auction Arms and Gunbroker, I find a good bit of .45 GAP ammo for sale and all but 2 of the guns chambered in .45 GAP are Glocks, the other two being Springfields.

I found less models but from 2 different brands (Browning, Jericho) offering the obscure .41 AE. There was less ammo as well.

Crapulence
May 12, 2010, 07:07 PM
If availability of a round at the box stores is a qualification for a calibers livelihood then I have to say that 22lr and .40 cal are our only hope in my neck of the woods. I did snag some 10mm at academy today. It's crappy blazer ammo but it was cheap and I can make some folk apoplectic in the reloading forum when I ask what could go wrong if I reload it :)

LOUcifer
May 12, 2010, 07:12 PM
Many people have made good points but it seems that everyone has a different definition of what " dead " means...

Ya think? lol

ScottRiqui
May 12, 2010, 07:24 PM
Personally, I don't think the number of different guns chambered for a particular cartridge is as important as the total number of guns sold in that particular cartridge, even if they're all from the same manufacturer.

Even if Glock is the only company making .45 GAP guns, it can still be enough to keep the cartridge alive if they make enough of them. It's definitely an "all your eggs in one basket" situation, but it doesn't necessarily mean the end of the cartridge.

mavracer
May 12, 2010, 07:24 PM
Okay, after checking Auction Arms and Gunbroker, I find a good bit of .45 GAP ammo for sale and all but 2 of the guns chambered in .45 GAP are Glocks, the other two being Springfields.

I did a search on GB for 45gap and 45 gap I got ~200 hits between the two.quite a few were stuff that fits 9mm and 40S&W and listed all three.

doing the same search for 357sig/357 sig I got ~700 hits 10mm/10 mm got me almost 1000 hits.

357 sig ,while it does nothing for me, is far more popular than the gap and will remain that way.

The 45Gap will never reach the 10mm's almost Iconic status. Come on 10mm has it's own forum(well now a large sub forum anyway) www.10mmtalk.com

DonutGuy
May 12, 2010, 07:37 PM
The 45Gap will never reach the 10mm's almost Iconic status. Come on 10mm has it's own forum(well now a large sub forum anyway) www.10mmtalk.com


Th GAP was never intended to rival or even compete with the 10mm. The GAP's ONLY purpose was to have a .45 bullet in a small frame, which it does....very well. Also the GAP has it's own forum also, and a huge following to match.:cool:

http://glocktalk.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=87

mavracer
May 12, 2010, 08:48 PM
Th GAP was never intended to rival or even compete with the 10mm.
Sure it was "the next big thing".However I think we both know I was rebutting the statements made by others in this thread as to popularity of the two cartridges.
The GAP's ONLY purpose was to have a .45 bullet in a small framed Glock, which it does....very well.
there I fixed it for you cause other makers just made small framed ACPs.Also that's the reason it will never be popular cause thats the only thing it does. Also the GAP has it's own forum also, and a huge following to match.
cool didn't know that however technicly it's a true subforum (only threads in it) 10mm talk is a forum with several subforums and used to stand alone before it merged with ar15armory

Sturmgewehre
May 12, 2010, 09:33 PM
Rounds that were dead, but came back INDEPENDENTLY of CAS.

Mike, I think you misinterpreted my comments. I never said cartridges never come back from the great void, what I did say were the original 3 you cited (.45 Schofield, .44 Russian, .44 Colt.) were resurrected because of CAS.

.45 Colt has been around since the 1800's... it's gone up and down in popularity, but it's never died like the 41AE. With the rise of quick draw competitions in the 50's and 60's and the popularity of Westerns from the 40's through the 70's the SAA remained very much alive. You could always get a box of shells and buy a new Colt.

The same is true of the 16ga. While it dove in popularity it was always there. My buddy shot one for years when there wasn't anyone making new ones that I could think of. But the ammo was always available because I hunted with him and he got it without issue.

The 5mm, that could be one of the truly dead cartridges that came back to life, I don't know anything about it.

But the point is, I didn't say it couldn't happen I just said the ones you originally cited were revived because of CAS.

gyvel
May 13, 2010, 05:39 AM
Will I still be able to get ammo for the next 30 years?

Ha! You may not be able to get ammo of ANY kind in 30 years if the government keeps going the way it's going...