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Super-Dave
May 7, 2010, 03:35 PM
Since doubletap ammo is 100 to 200 fps faster than the major ammo manufacturers, why dont remington, federal, winchester etc, match Doubletap's velocity?

mothermopar
May 7, 2010, 03:39 PM
IMO...

DT's ammo likely operates at pressures higher than the big company ammo. So, liability issues. DT ammo is safe, but it pushes the envelope further than the big company ammo does.

Haifisch
May 7, 2010, 04:56 PM
You need to have a strong, reliable firearm when using Doubletap ammo.
An inferior pistol like a CZ would probably fail from the added pressures.

Wishoot
May 7, 2010, 05:11 PM
You need to have a strong, reliable firearm when using Doubletap ammo.
An inferior pistol like a CZ would probably fail from the added pressures.

Another mind-blowing insight that has absolutely nothing to do with the OP's question from the king of trolls.

christcorp
May 7, 2010, 07:30 PM
An inferior pistol like a CZ would probably fail from the added pressures

That's about the most ignorant thing I've heard on the forums in a long time. So now CZ is inferior?

vladan
May 7, 2010, 07:59 PM
Please ignore the troll.

To OP: they do, even +P+ loadings but market it only to LE/military market for most.
BTW, DT, buffalo bore, GA, and other ammo is perfectly within SAAMI specs and safe for ALL guns that are in SAAMI specs ( which CZs are :) )

gearchecker
May 7, 2010, 10:11 PM
Another Darwin candidate in the making I see.

Super Troll, I'll bet your super revolver can handle anything Double tap can make too!
If your comments aren't in line with the OP, keep out of the conversations. Your ignorance isn't apprecaited or warranted.

Now,
To answer the OP.
The manufacturers keep their recommendations lower to avoid litigation. A few will list exceptions to higher power loads that fall within SAAMI standards, +P is an accepted standard.
+P+ is not a recognized standard so any manufacturer that produces an ammo rated at higher than SAAMI rated +P pressures can build unstated/inconsistant pressures, and SAAMI won't give a stamp of approval. I know of absolutly no manufacturer that will recommend firing anything above a +P rated cartridge due to the liability.
If anybody were to build up a load above +P pressures, and it blows the gun apart, and then claim the gun manufacturer is at fault for the failure, the manufacture has recourse because they warned against using anything above an (XX) load. Manufacturer 1, Complaintant 0.

Pretty simple, a solid case of manufacturers CYA.

Chesster
May 7, 2010, 10:20 PM
I've got some DT in .44 spec and I think they squeeze the upper limits on their loads but they are safe in modern firearms in good repair.

cougar gt-e
May 7, 2010, 10:27 PM
DT has been reputed to be (ahem) somewhat optimistic in reporting tested velocity. That's point 1.

The other main line companies load below the spec pressures to account for things like bullet recession that could increase pressure. All in the name of keeping the lawyers happy.

Sevens
May 7, 2010, 10:33 PM
Just wanted to mention one little bit since it hasn't been addressed.

While Double Tap makes a bunch of different calibers these days, it started all around the 10mm Auto round. And if the numbers that you've been looking at is 10mm and being compared to the current 10mm ammo from Federal, Remington and Winchester, the main reason they are so different is that most of the 10mm offered on the market is loaded to FBI Lite specs -- a downloaded 10mm that's not much (if any) faster than similar offerings in .40 S&W.

Winchester does still offer the Silvertip load in 10mm and that one is built more to proper 10mm spec. But the (crap) 10mm ammo from CCI, Remington and Federal is all weak, worthless and pointless in 10mm.

The Deuce
May 8, 2010, 12:50 AM
DT Ammo runs beautiful even in my SIGMA's... not an issue at all with any of their ammo.. nor the guns I run it through.. Just saying..

ClydeFrog
May 8, 2010, 01:33 AM
I thought it was SAAMI.
Small Arms Ammunition Mtg Industry

I wouldn't think CZ pistols would burst into flames but as always, you should read & understand the owner's manual. :)

FWIW; SIG Sauer's offical website advises against using +P+ rounds but my local PD(800+ sworn officers) uses the Ranger T +P+ 127gr police load.

Clyde Frog

Catfishman
May 8, 2010, 10:11 AM
DT has been reputed to be (ahem) somewhat optimistic in reporting tested velocity. That's point 1.

That's the first time I've heard that. What do you base it one. I can't cite it but I seem to remember reading the opposite.

Catfishman
May 8, 2010, 10:23 AM
The guy downing CZ brings makes me think. Are there any guns you shouldn't use Double Tap in?

I like Double Tap but I don't put it in my Kel-tec 3AT. Am I being unnecessarily cautious?

vladan
May 8, 2010, 11:29 AM
The guy downing CZ brings makes me think. Are there any guns you shouldn't use Double Tap in?

I like Double Tap but I don't put it in my Kel-tec 3AT. Am I being unnecessarily cautious?

DT makes standard pressure ( although at the higher limit ) and +P rounds. If your weapon is rated for +P round, any +P, DT include are safe in your weapon. For example they make standart load for 45 Colt and 45 Colt +P If your revolver is older 45colt not rated +P then you need to use DT standard load, if you have newer gun +P rated or 454Casul, it is safe to use their +P loading.
Bottom line their standard or +P loading are within SAAMI specs.
Always read the manual :)

gearchecker
May 8, 2010, 12:53 PM
Error corrected, fat fingers and my spell checker likes it the other way.
Thanks for the quick catch. Appreciated.

Haifisch
May 8, 2010, 01:05 PM
gearchecker: I reload all of my own bullets, some of which are more stout than DT ammo.

No "troll" here, just telling it like it is.

DBAR
May 8, 2010, 03:09 PM
No "troll" here, just telling it like it is.

Then provide us with some real, detailed information. You keep saying the CZ's are bad handguns, but you never give us any supporting information. It's obvious that you don't like CZ's, but if your going to continue to just bash them, then your going to continue to get called a "Troll"!

DBAR

EDIT:

You drag CZ into a thread that had nothing to do with them! Do you really expect not to get called a "Troll"? In the last couple of days alone, you've done nothing buy search out threads about CZ's to bash them? It's time to move on....

Haifisch
May 8, 2010, 03:48 PM
Call me whatever floats your boat, I wont lose any sleep over it.

WESHOOT2
May 8, 2010, 04:58 PM
Mr. McNett is an honorable man.

Testing reveals that the barrel I test may shoot differently than the barrel you test, sometimes significantly faster or slower. Sometimes even 100fps.
Sometimes even more.



ps I have CZ clones that have held up remarkably for the +15 yrs they've been horribly overstressed with non-SAAMI-spec ammo. Sometimes way-non-SAAMI......if it matters.....

Webleymkv
May 8, 2010, 05:04 PM
To answer the OP's question, Double Tap attains higher velocities in a couple of ways. First off, the big name ammo makers do not load their ammo to maximum pressure out of fear that some idiot will use it in a firearm in poor condition or one of a different caliber. Double Tap along with Buffalo Bore and Grizzly load their ammo right up to the maximum SAAMI-compliant pressure. Also, DT and the like utilize their maximum pressure differently. The pressure curve of most ammo is characterized by a sharp spike while DT, through their selection and blending of powders, creates a pressure curve stays a maximum pressure longer and thusly creates higher velocities.

DBAR
May 8, 2010, 05:33 PM
To answer the OP's question, Double Tap attains higher velocities in a couple of ways. First off, the big name ammo makers do not load their ammo to maximum pressure out of fear that some idiot will use it in a firearm in poor condition or one of a different caliber. Double Tap along with Buffalo Bore and Grizzly load their ammo right up to the maximum SAAMI-compliant pressure. Also, DT and the like utilize their maximum pressure differently. The pressure curve of most ammo is characterized by a sharp spike while DT, through their selection and blending of powders, creates a pressure curve stays a maximum pressure longer and thusly creates higher velocities.

Now that is some good information. I've bought some Buffalo Bore ammo, and it is hot ammo. It is at, or near SAMMI max, and that's why I've always felt very comfortable having my handguns loaded with it. I'll have to get some Double Tap ammo and give it a try.

DBAR

cougar gt-e
May 8, 2010, 10:41 PM
That's the first time I've heard that. What do you base it one. I can't cite it but I seem to remember reading the opposite.

I've read a lot over the years, here are a few that I just googled up quick.


http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/DocGKRData/40_155grDT_155gr165grGDHP.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=397032



The real answer is to own and use a chronograph...

sigxder
May 9, 2010, 02:32 AM
The bullets such as the Winchester Ranger and Speer Gold Dots are made to open within the specific velocity which they are manufactured at. The expansion window on them is quite big. Driving them much faster than they were designed for may add energy but probably won't actually due much for performance. In fact it might cause them to over expand and under penetrate. It not so much bullet velocity or power that determines how the bullet works but more in how the bullets are designed. Both bullets mentioned above have excellent records along with the Federal HST's for doing the job they were designed for within their ammo's design parameters. I think you gain little or nothing running them much hotter.

Sevens
May 9, 2010, 06:56 AM
Double Tap is first and foremost a 10mm ammo company.

Nobody makes high tech, cutting edge expanding ammo in 10mm. Closest thing on the market by anyone is Winchester Silvertip, which is what... a 30 year old design? Or the Federal Hydra-Shok which is nearly as old. (and the Hydra-Shok load for 10mm is loaded nearly to .40 S&W spec)

SXT, Gold Dot, Golden Sabre, XTP, FTX, et all... nobody offers them in 10mm.

Cor-Bon offers a DPX.

greyeyezz
May 9, 2010, 12:40 PM
That's the first time I've heard that. What do you base it one. I can't cite it but I seem to remember reading the opposite.

Here's another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXtvBhneM&feature=related

Catfishman
May 10, 2010, 11:36 PM
Quote:
That's the first time I've heard that. What do you base it one. I can't cite it but I seem to remember reading the opposite.

Here's another
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nNXt...eature=related

Interesting. Has anyone seen the same for the 10mm Double Tap loadings?

booker_t
May 12, 2010, 10:05 AM
This isn't directly related to the OP, but related because you have to take some of these measurement numbers with a grain of salt. There's a host of variation in the ways people do chamber pressure measurements.

1) Various pressure transducer technologies (tourmaline, quartz, piezoelectric ceramic, piezoresistive, etc.)

2) Various calibration techniques for the pressure transducers (static vs. dynamic) which results in different sensitivities (inverse of gauge factor)

3) Data acquisition (DAQ) sampling rate

4) DAQ bit depth and full-scale counts (resolution)

5) Analog-to-Digital Conversion (ADC) method (successive approximation, sigma delta, etc.) and associated quantization error and non-linearity

6) Time-history curve filtering and smoothing, assumptions made by manufacturer, technicians, engineers

7) Treating sources of error in the DAQ system (gauge offset, thermal drift, round-to-round accuracy, ambient temperature compensation, etc.)

8) Treating physical sources of error (gauge blocking, blow-by, gauge sealing, barrel drilling precision, inconsistent case expansion, case drilling precision where applicable, grease effects, tribo-electric effect/cable whip, external and internal noise sources, methods using Mann barrel with screw-on chamber vs. typical handgun action, etc.)

9) Temperature conditioning of test rounds and chamber/barrel (cold, hot, ambient)

10) Need I go on?

If you want to learn more about chamber pressure measurement, there's a fair amount of information on transducer manufacturer websites, including the transducer data sheets. Try PCB Piezotronics and Kulite, although there are dozens of big manufacturers.