AR's and steel

[TMackey]

1 Are there any AR brands that will shoot steel cased ammo reliably?

2 Are there any AR manufacturers that will not void your warranty for using steel cased ammo? I know CMMG specifically states that shooting steel cased ammo will void your warranty on their site.

[Skyyr]

Steel casings on ammunition are less than optimum for a number of reasons, the chief reasons being that steel casings do not expand to fill the chamber as efficiently or as quickly as brass casings do, and that most steel cases are lacquer-coated (the lacquer burns off and forms a gummy residue on the inside of the chamber, causing casings to have more resistance to being extracted). That being said...

Steel-cased ammo, due to above reasons, strain an AR. Without getting technical, it reduces reliability and performance. Because of this, there is no single AR that was designed to fire steel-cased ammo; you simply have well-built AR's that function well and you have everything else. If you have a quality AR that is built to full mil-spec, then chances are it should run it reliably. There's no guarantee as the rifle was never designed for steel-cased ammo.

Also, because of the above, no quality manufacturer will warranty their rifles to shoot steel-cased ammo. The ones that do typically aren't quality manufacturers (since they don't understand the ramifications of their suggestions on their own warranty), so it's a moot point. If you want a weapon system that will reliably shoot steel ammo for cost purposes, then you might want to look into getting an AK (it was designed for shooting steel-cased ammo). The guns are cheap (MUCH cheaper than a good AR), the ammo is cheap, and they're fun.


If you insist on an AR, then get a QUALITY AR. Quality is regarded as the manufacturers that follow TDP and mil-spec. To date, those are Colt, BCM, Noveske, Daniel Defense (2009 and on), and LMT. Other AR manufacturers do not fully follow TDP, so you're losing some aspect of performance, reliability, or quality outside the above manufacturers.

No manufacturer will warranty steel-cased ammo, so try at your own risk. Now many people have and do shoot steel cased ammo without issue, but note that the risk is still there.

[TMackey]

Thanks.

I already have a 223 Saiga and wanted an AR to share ammo.

I guess I'll just stick with Saiga's only.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I know CMMG specifically states that shooting steel cased ammo will void your warranty on their site.

To be fair, most warranties are written so that the manufacturer almost always has a loophole. So trying to avoid doing something not covered by the warranty is going to be practically impossible, steel cased ammo or not.

Despite that, many manufacturers will go ahead and replace items not covered by warranty because it is simply good customer service and they understand that this is important for their business. The loopholes just give them the option to do this on a case-by-case basis.

As far as steel case 5.56x45 goes, it is tough to say whether a rifle will run it or not without trying it. A friend had an Armalite that had flawlessly digested over 6,000 rounds of various types of low-end, budget & surplus brass-cased 5.56 ammo and it choked on .223 Hornady steel-cased training ammo, which was very high quality as steel cased ammo goes. I've also seen rifles that would feed the Hornady but choke on Wolf.

[DMK]

I have a hard time understanding what it is about steel cased ammo that 'strains' an AR, but not an AK. :confused:

Granted, laquer coated ammo can stick in a chamber, but there is a lot of polymer coated ammo these days that don't have this problem.

[Skyyr]

I have a hard time understanding what it is about steel cased ammo that 'strains' an AR, but not an AK.


Without getting into specifics (and technicalities), the AR was designed around a 20" barrel firing a brass-cased 5.56mm round at X pressure ejecting X miliseconds afterwards, etc. The rifle was designed to work specifically with brass-cased 5.56mm cartridges. The brass has a specific expansion rate and time that and the gun is tuned to work with it. Steel expands and contracts significantly slower and this interferes with "normal" AR operation. Because the AR has much tighter tolerances compared to an AK, it is more apt to malfunction with non-optimum ammo.

An AK, on the other hand, has much looser tolerances, and, bluntly, is "overbuilt" (on purpose). Go on YouTube and review videos of the AK firing in slow motion. The sheer weight and force of the piston rod moving visibly vibrates the entire weapon (not so with an AR). It's this "overbuilding" that seemingly makes it immune to the issues that the AR is finicky about. More importantly, it was built around steel-cased ammo from the ground up, so it's at its optimum performance using it (AR's are not). The tradeoff is a massive decrease in accuracy and precision.

[Palmetto-Pride]

I have Smith & Wesson M&P15T and I have shot thousands of Silver Bear nickel plated steel case ammo thru it with out a problem, I do stay away from the Brown Bear ammo because it has a lacquer coating on it. I had a guy tell me steel case ammo is "rough on the chambers" I figure I will take my chance, the money I save shooting Silver Bear @ $4.89 per box I can easily replace the barrel if it actually did mess it up. http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM276-5.html

[DMK]

Steel expands and contracts significantly slower and this interferes with "normal" AR operation. Oh yea, I get that. I just don't understand how it can put any strain on the AR's components or cause any damage.

[10-96]

I figgered this thread would have taken off like a "Barrel Break-in" or "Is WD-40 Really Evil" thread. Seems I've heard about lots of folks here shooting steel cased ammo over the years.

[Come and take it.]

I used to be a bit paranoid about steel cased ammo but I realized after shooting thru enough guns that it was paranoia.

Keep in mind that a person might be more liable to damage their gun firing decades old surplus or reloaded brass ammo like Black Hills.

I had a case seperation from black hills once in an AR.

Even some american ammo companies are actually going to steel cased for training ammo. Hornady if I am not mistaken

[Skyyr]

Oh yea, I get that. I just don't understand how it can put any strain on the AR's components or cause any damage.


The casing takes longer to expand, meaning less pressure is built up in the barrel and can result in under-gassing (which is common with steel-cased ammo). Since it also takes longer to contract once expanded, extraction occurs before the case has contracted to the optimal size, creating more friction and therefore more strain on the extractor (broken extractors and FTE are, again, common with steel cased ammo). Couple the additional friction with lacquer that sticks to the chamber walls and you high significantly higher rates of extraction issues. It also reduces chamber life - how much exactly depends on the type of ammo and the quality of the barrel material.

[brian45auto]

Oh yea, I get that. I just don't understand how it can put any strain on the AR's components or cause any damage.

just goes to show you that the ak is the more robust design.

[DMK]

...more strain on the extractor (broken extractors and FTE are, again, common with steel cased ammo). ... It also reduces chamber life - how much exactly depends on the type of ammo and the quality of the barrel material. OK, so you run a chrome lined chamber to reduce the wear (I do on all my ARs anyway) and buy some spare extractors.

There is quite a considerable cost savings in using steel cased ammo.

I haven't tried any myself, but I'm considering it. If it doesn't work out in the ARs, I can use it in my 5.56x45 Saiga.

[Come and take it.]

My DPMS panther manual does not say I cannot use steel cased ammo.

It says to not use foreign ammunition. Not because of steel cased ammo but because the brass cased ammo tends to be softer and the brass flows into pores in the steel of the chamber during firing, causing the cases to stick. It also brought up the issue of bullet shape and seating depth that would cause bullets to engage the rifling before being fired.

foreign military surplus ammo is more hazardous to a gun than steel cased ammo.

[Qtiphky]

My Armalte won't shoot the steel case stuff at all. Always FTE and causes problems. Don't know why except that the bolt doesn't move and I have to slam the gun on the ground butt first to get the shell to eject. Because of this I never tried it in my Bushmaster. However, my Ruger Mini 14 ranch will shoot it perfectly all day long. Accuracy isn't spectacular, but with the Ruger with open sights hitting a paper plate at 100 yards is good enough for what I use the gun for.

[TMackey]

my Ruger Mini 14 ranch will shoot it perfectly all day long

I called Ruger yesterday. I told the lady that I was looking for a rifle to share ammo with my Saiga. As soon as I mentioned the words "steel cased ammo", she stopped me in mid sentence and said "we don't recommend shooting steel cased ammo in the Mini". I then asked her if it would void the warranty if I did, and again she said "we don't recommend shooting steel cased ammo in the Mini".

It may not hurt it, it may not void the warranty, but if I'm going to be paying that much for a rifle, I don't want any problems with loopholes if I have to send it back for some reason.

[brian45auto]

it's all i have i ever run through my bushmaster. never an issue in several thousand rounds.
any "excess" wear to the gun will be offset by the cost savings in ammo.

[WhyteP38]

I've shot polymer- and zinc-coated steel-cased ammo through my Mini-30 and one of my ARs without any problems. I avoid the lacquered stuff because I know from personal experience that it can melt and be a witch to scrub off.

I would not shoot brass after shooting steel unless I do a thorough cleaning first. I've been told that you get more chamber deposits with steel than with brass because the steel does not expand the way brass does and leaves room for deposits. When you switch from steel to brass without cleaning first, the brass will expand into the deposits and can get stuck. I tested this and it was true for me. YMMV.

The one thing I'm always cautious of when shooting steel in the AR is that the case has much less taper than the 7.62x39 of my Mini-30. With less taper, there's more friction with .223 extraction and thus less room for changes in the chamber's condition. I hear of far more extraction problems with steel .223 than with steel 7.62x39. I still shoot the steel, but I am always alert to potential extraction problems.

As for the question about brands, I won't shoot steel through my Colt, but my Stags and my self-built with a Bushmaster superlight barrel have been fine.

As for the warranty question, I never bothered to check.

[Scorch]

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with steel cases. They do not stress or damage an AR any more than brass casings, they are not somehow harder on the extractor or magically have different pressure properties than rounds loaded in brass casings. The biggest difference is in the coating that is applied to the exterior of the cases, which melts and fuses to the interior of the chamber, causing extraction issues. Why are ARs more sensitive to the sticky chambers than AKs? Because the cartridge has less taper it is in closer contact with the chamber wall during extraction and feeding, and therefore the extraction pulls the case along thesticky mess rather than lifting out of the gooey stuff and feeding tries to plow through the mess. Therefore, problems with extraction and feeding. No magic, just physics.

So why do they put the coating on the cases? To prevent rust on the steel cases, and to "lubricate" the cases for feeding and extraction. Brass is "self-lubricating" and tends to not stick.

Could ammo makers tackle this problem and solve it? Sure, easy, no brain horsepower required. So what's the problem? The problem is that the types of coatings that would eliminate the issue cost as much as or more than making the cases out of brass. And then the people who are buying this cheap ammo to blast through their SKS or AK look-alike would buy something else, and there is a lot of surplus ammo around loaded this way for central European military entities. So why bother?

[rickr]

I have had a couple AR's an always shot steel through them without any trouble.
I just purchased a bushmaster varminter and dealder told me that the warranty would be void if I shot steel casings. Guess I won't shoot them in this rifle...

[Willie D]

Another thing that can be an issue with combloc steel cased ammo is that it usually has a wimpy powder charge.

[Csspecs]

Agree with the lower powder charge.

Their ammo is a lighter load, same reason the .223 Aks work so well, they are made for a lighter powder charge.

[Crosshair]

Another reason is that the AK extractor design sems to be beefier than an AR. My Saiga .223 keeps chugging along with the steel stuff. Though a friends AR keeps chugging along with Wolf as well.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3551/3317034368_50d2433fa0.jpg?v=0

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/4664/rszdsc06604.jpg

[riverwalker76]

Steel case ammo and AR-15s & Mini-14s are bad news. The lacquer on the cases heats up and fuses to the chamber once it cools. This causes multiple headspace problems in modern US rifles. The AK and COMBLOC rifles can fire them fine simply because they have more tolerant headspacing.

What's the big deal with Steel cases anyway? Why are you so dead set on them? If you are considering them because they are cheap ... there are plenty of cheap alternatives out there in brass cases.

[Csspecs]

most steel case is poly coat which is better, or the silver bear is zinc plated.

the big problem seems to be using brass cases in a rifle that has used lacquer coated ammo.

I don't own an AR other then a stripped lower that I use for a paper weight. Hard to build it when I can almost get two saigas for the cost. :D

[WhyteP38]

All this talk about a lower powder charge has me wondering if the powder used will clog up an AR gas tube pretty quickly. That's a factor I had not considered before.

[TMackey]

I had a guy tell me steel case ammo is "rough on the chambers" I figure I will take my chance, the money I save shooting Silver Bear @ $4.89 per box I can easily replace the barrel if it actually did mess it up.

I may have been over thinking this.

After buying a couple of cases the savings would buy plenty of parts. :D

Thanks Palmetto. :)

[MEATSAW]

The steel cased ammo that you need to watch out for especially in ARs (not so much bolt actions) is the stuff that is lacquer coated. After repeated firing the lacquer tends to melt and congeal and this starts to mess with the reliable function and operation of your AR. I know Wolf addressed this issue and now all of their steel cased stuff is polymer coated which works perfectly fine. Brown Bear I think may be still lacquer coated I am not sure. Overall I think steel cased stuff got a bad rap because of problems with the lacquer NOT the fact that its steel. If it was me I would obviously shoot high end brass all day, but in the end Wolf or Silver Bear work just great and I save some dough.

[taylorce1]

Don't sweat the steel ammunition I ran Wolf through my DPMS AP4 with no headaches what so ever. I only had problems when I ran enough rounds to get the rifle really dirty or got a bad magazine. The mags I had were pretty old collected over many years of military service who knows how many rounds were put throught them.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I know Wolf addressed this issue and now all of their steel cased stuff is polymer coated which works perfectly fine.

I am skeptical about the lacquer as I personally have never been able to melt off a noticeable amount of lacquer from steel cases even in an oven at 550F for 30 minutes. However, I can definitely state that polymer Wolf has as many problems as the older lacquered Wolf because I've seen rifles in courses choke on both types of steel cased ammo.

Oddly enough, Hornady went the other way with their steel cased training ammo. They started out with a zinc-coated case and are now using a lacquered Wolf style case. Hornady is a good company that produces good ammo, so that also tends to make me think lacquer is not an issue.

[Come and take it.]

I have to place most of the blame of people using steel cases to our domestic ammo manufacturers greatly bloated ammo prices.

We can buy steel cased ammo cheaper after it is imported from the other side of the globe cheaper than domestically produced brass cased that doesnt even have to be shipped but a few thousand miles at most. In most case we can buy brass cased ammo (especially hunting ammo) cheaper from around the globe than USA companies.

The horribly overinflated prices trully show when you compare domestically produced hunting ammunition to steel cased imported hunting ammunition.

Of course this is a global free market (for now), and these foreign countries have every right to compete with Domestic companies.

I can fully understand why Winchester, Federal, Remington etc etc would want to spread misinformation about the "hazards" of steel cased ammo. But considering that it is still readily accessible just about everywhere, and hasnt been banned for the cause of "numerous" horrible gun explosions resulting in death and injury.

I can understand that it is all about trying to compete by selling a comparable product and trying to make people feel that their product is the only safe one to use when in fact it isnt. Just like oil companies competing against one another using misinformation.

My S&W has fired various kinds of ammo without cleaning for hundreds of rounds lately. I had one malfunction. It was caused by a winchester FMJ cartridge that had a deformed brass case that I missed when loading my mag because I thought a USA company would surely not sell me an inferior cartridge considering how expensive that box of ammo cost me.

[MEATSAW]

I am skeptical about the lacquer as I personally have never been able to melt off a noticeable amount of lacquer from steel cases even in an oven at 550F for 30 minutes. However, I can definitely state that polymer Wolf has as many problems as the older lacquered Wolf because I've seen rifles in courses choke on both types of steel cased ammo.

Oddly enough, Hornady went the other way with their steel cased training ammo. They started out with a zinc-coated case and are now using a lacquered Wolf style case. Hornady is a good company that produces good ammo, so that also tends to make me think lacquer is not an issue.

Very interesting Bart. I have never done any such testing myself with ovens and stuff. I just remember seeing posted about it on Bushmaster's website a while back. But if in fact the lacquer tales are indeed not true than I stand corrected. It does make me wonder why Wolf would go change their whole operation to polymer if lacquer really wasn't a problem? Polymer coating really can't be all that cheaper than lacquer can it?

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Well, it could be a perception issue. People were complaining about the lacquer gumming up their chambers - though in the pictures I saw itwas always a pink or red gummy residue, which sounds more like the big, thick red band of neck sealant that Wolf used to use.

Or maybe my test doesn't accurately reflect happens because peak temperatures in the chamber exceed 550F briefly and maybe the amount of lacquer removed per case is miniscule; but adds up as rounds are fired.

All I know is that the polymer Wolf continues to have the same problems attributed to the lacquer on earlier Wolf.

[Come and take it.]

In several internet threads it is claimed that Hornday buys its steel cases for its .223 training ammo from Wolf. It would be nice to find a source on that as I would bet it is true.

Considering that Hornady training ammo is domestically produced (loaded domestically), than it would fit the criteria for warranty coverage.