What is Dan Wesson Thinking?

[SPUSCG]

They discontinued most of their guns, including the incredibly popular CBOB, get rid of all 10mm guns, and raise there prices to the point there not in the "huge value, awesome price" category anymore. Whats with this? OI say its a horrible business decision.

[azredhawk44]

Perhaps they are freeing up production capabilities to re-start their revolver line?

The market is primed for someone to knock S&W down a peg, and DW is the firm to do it if Ruger won't slim their sixguns.

[Brian Pfleuger]

They're not thinking..... CZ is thinking..... and CZ is doing what virtually all large corporations do when they "think". Missing the forest for the trees. Making decisions that no one with "boots on the ground" would make. Welcome to the results of corner office, no front desk experience, theoretical accounting decision making.

[6onthehip]

still slapping myself for selling an M15 that i once had - what an idiot:rolleyes:

[bald1]

They discontinued most of their guns, including the incredibly popular CBOB, get rid of all 10mm guns, and raise there prices to the point there not in the "huge value, awesome price" category anymore. Whats with this? OI say its a horrible business decision.

They're not thinking..... CZ is thinking..... and CZ is doing what virtually all large corporations do when they "think". Missing the forest for the trees. Making decisions that no one with "boots on the ground" would make. Welcome to the results of corner office, no front desk experience, theoretical accounting decision making.

It'd be nice if you had the facts before posting such off hand condemnations.

The product manager for DW (Keith Lawton) regularily posts on another forum and has explained in full what their 2010 game plan is. To correct the most obvious misstatements / misunderstandings:
(1) DW is increasing their annual output from 3000 to 3500 units for 2010
(2) The CBOB is NOT discontinued and will be sold in CA while the rest of the country gets an improved bobbed commander in the VBOB (stainless or black) which is but one new model in the expanded Valor family. This because of the stupid CA approved gun list rules.
(3) 10mm and 40S&W caliber demand has dropped significantly so for 2010 they are on a hiatus. Special runs may be made in 2011.
(4) in response to requests, new for 2010 is a bobbed lightweight commander in 9mm called the Guardian
(5) significant component upgrades are being made across the line to include all pistols now with forged frames (alone a $100 per gun cost), new tool steel fire control and thumb safety parts, and the ceracote black finish being replaced with a more costly molecular bonding black treatment. These costs are significant factors reflected in the new pricing.

Improving upon a great product doesn't sound like a bad business decision to most of us who have looked beyond the rumors to see the whys and where fors. BTW DW isn''t the only maker showing price increases for 2010.... look around :)

[spodwo]

The product manager for DW regularily posts on another forum and has explained in full what their 2010 game plan is. To correct the most obvious misstatements:
(1) DW is increasing their annual output from 3000 to 3500 units for 2010
(2) The CBOB is NOT discontinued and will be sold in CA while the rest of the country gets an improved bobbed commander in the VBOB (stainless or black) which is but one new model in the expanded Valor family. This because of the stupid CA approved gun list rules.
(3) 10mm and 40S&W caliber demand has dropped significantly so for 2010 they are on a hiatus. Special runs may be made in 2011.
(4) responded to requests, new for 2010 is a bobbed commander in 9mm called the Guardian
(5) significant component upgrades are being made across the line to include all pistols now with forged frames (alone a $100 per gun cost), new tool steel fire control and thumb safety parts, and the ceracote black finish being replaced with a more costly molecular bonding black treatment.



That is what I heard also...good information....

[KyJim]

The question is whether DW has priced itself, or at least many of its offerings, out of a particular niche in the 1911 market. Their MSRPs are now competing with Springfield TRP, upper level Kimbers, and knocking on the door of some Les Baers. Not sure how street prices will be.

I would also expect some California dealers selling a lot of CBOBs to non-residents. :)

[9x19]

Meh... it's a 1911... lots of other choices all up and down the price spectrum. :rolleyes:

Those who are brand-loyal will buy, those who are cost-conscious will likely look at the many other offerings.

The wheel keeps turning and life goes on.... :D

[bald1]

If you guys choose to evaluate strictly by MRSPs or street prices without factoring in the quality of assembly (fit and finish), the quality of the parts used, and the level of customer service, so be it. My "put" is that those that do might be missing out on the best their dollar will buy.

And to clear the air, I'm no raving fan boy although I do own 2 Dans and have been extremely pleased with them. I also own a bunch of other pistolas :) I simply believe in doing good market analysis in determining what I'm going to purchase.

http://rap.midco.net/bald1/handguns_sm.jpg

[KyJim]

I do consider quality of parts, workmanship, and service. I have one DW and am getting another. I may still buy more. My point is, however, that they will be leaving behind some of those who have bought DWs in the past. These buyers will likely buy SWs or Colts.

I'm not knocking DW's decision. That's their decision to make. Just making an observation.

[michael t]

I like my DW CBOB but I won't a present time be buying any more. Nothing in the new line up and price increase I am interested in. I will look at the Browns and Baers . I was planing on a 2010 DW but not likely now Was the best 1911 for the price out their. Looks like Fusion will pick up some buyers and followers

[Rinspeed]

I wonder where this rumor that the CBOB was being discontinued got started. I've heard it on a couple differents forums.

[troy_mclure]

theres only something like 300 cbobs being made, all for california.

you can find out the info over at 1911forums.com , in the dan wesson page.

[EAJ702]

I wonder where this rumor that the CBOB was being discontinued got started. I've heard it on a couple differents forums.

It's called the internet, where opinion and misinformation is often quoted as fact. :)

[SPUSCG]

The dan wesson website, which says "discontinued for 2010."

[MEATSAW]

The one thing that stops me from purchasing DW (or other brands) is a lack of a lifetime warranty. It may have the best fit and finish out there but if its not backed by a lifetime warranty I am not going to buy it. Why? Because unfortunately crap happens, and its nice to have the peace of mind.

[bald1]

if its not backed by a lifetime warranty I am not going to buy it

I guess you don't buy much of anything then..... cars, appliances, cameras, watches, et cetera ad nauseum do NOT have lifetime warranties. I like to look beyond the piece of paper to see just how well companies take care of their customers. There are some astounding stories out there (e.g. Swarovski and Leupold Optics come to mind). Dan Wesson has established a pretty darned good rep as well.

[DT Guy]

Is the comment about 'tool steel fire control' parts referring to the fact that there are no MIM parts in a new DW? If so, there will be a definite and steadfast market segment ready to buy, and what I've heard of DW's quality will support moving up-market.

If they stop competing with S&W and Kimber and start competing with Brown and Baer, who's going to complain?



Larry

[sserdlihc]

With all of the improvements that will be made, does it warrant the huge price increase?

[az_imuth]

I had been saving up for a new Valor and planned to purchase one this coming summer. With the substantial price increases they show on their website, I think I'll be looking for something else. I'm really disappointed because I was truly looking forward to the purchase. I have a TRP that has been an excellent pistol, so I don't necessarily want another. Are there any other new 1911s out there in the 1200-1400 price range that are highly regarded?

[dances with guns]

horrible business decision to say the least.

DW seems to hold it's 1911's in much too high of a regard. :rolleyes:


now why would i want to pay 2 grand for a finished VBOB, when i could spend a little more and get an actual ed brown kobra karry? (instead of a bobbed 1911 with a couple ed brown parts). :confused:

[rduckwor]

horrible business decision to say the least.

DW seems to hold it's 1911's in much too high of a regard.


now why would i want to pay 2 grand for a finished VBOB, when i could spend a little more and get an actual ed brown kobra karry? (instead of a bobbed 1911 with a couple ed brown parts).

Surely you wouldn't pay MSRP for ANY gun. Besides, before you think DW holds their 1911's in too high a regard, you need to handle and shoot a Valor. The '10 changes are significant and the MSRP probably reflects that. However, none of us will pay MSRP, we'll pay what the market will bear.

[MEATSAW]

I guess you don't buy much of anything then..... cars, appliances, cameras, watches, et cetera ad nauseum do NOT have lifetime warranties.

I was talking about firearms, after all this is what this thread is about (most of the rest of the site as well BTW). And in the firearm world there are plenty of respectable companies that stand behind there product with lifetime coverage.

[sonick808]

for that price I've got my eye on a wicked STI

maybe even something more unique, like a Safari Arms Matchmaster or something.....

[Jason_G]

Is the comment about 'tool steel fire control' parts referring to the fact that there are no MIM parts in a new DW?

I don't think there have been any MIM parts in DW pistols for a few years now.


Surely you wouldn't pay MSRP for ANY gun. Besides, before you think DW holds their 1911's in too high a regard, you need to handle and shoot a Valor. The '10 changes are significant and the MSRP probably reflects that. However, none of us will pay MSRP, we'll pay what the market will bear.

My thinking as well. I keep seeing people talking about DW trying to compete with Baer and Brown, and maybe they're right, but I think they will likely end up in the same price niche as Fusion.


Jason

[bluetopper]

I guess if he wants a lifetime, no questions asked warranty he can get a Hi Point.
Like em or not, they do have the best warranty in the business.

[Rinspeed]

Are there any other new 1911s out there in the 1200-1400 price range that are highly regarded?




With a little patience and time you could be into a very nice used semi-custom for $1400 or slightly more. In the last two months I have seen both a Baer TRS and SA PRO sell for under $1400. They are out there you just have to look for them.

[KyJim]

With a little patience and time you could be into a very nice used semi-custom for $1400 or slightly more.
Yep, I got a used Baer for this price less than a year ago. It had some carry wear but it shoots great and somebody else had already broken it in for me. Baer also essentially provides a lifetime warranty on the gun.

[RockyMtnTactical]

The price increases are not price increases for the sake of price increases. They are making a higher quality weapon, but I do agree that it seems like a strange move. I hope they don't discontinue the CBOB's permanently (outside of CA). Luckily I got mine though...

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/IMG_6061.jpg

[gruntrus]

I was looking at the DW/CZ website yesterday; Valor and Heritage is all they are building now. Everything else is marked "Discontinued". However, there caliber selection is pretty much just .45, which is all some folks really want but not me.

At least with the other great 1911 platform producers out there you can go after a 38 Super, 9mm, 10mm, or a .40 even. Good stuff.

MSRP on the DW stuff went to semi-custom prices. Weird. Oh well; they who hold the gold make the rules.

[stantonizm]

In addition to the Valor series (which will include a bobtail) and the Heritage, they will have the CCO (alloy-framed officers) and the Guardian (alloy-framed, commander sized, bobtailed 9mm). No 10mm's or .40's next year though. There was a strip-down comparison and shootout done on another forum, comparing the Valor to some of the other higher-end 1911 with pretty impressive results for DW.

http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=255555

[oneounceload]

And in the firearm world there are plenty of respectable companies that stand behind there product with lifetime coverage.

and how do you they won't? Ruger has NO warranty at all, yet they stand behind their product ...(of course they need to, but that's another story)

[gruntrus]

Your link shows quite a bias towards the DW .45 guns. Comparing .45s to a Fusion 9mm, using AE 115gr ammo.? Great effort by whoever took the time, but it's a soft sell on DW products. Don't get me wrong-I love my DW revolver, but cruising around those 1911 Forums the DW section seems to be drinking from a Kool-Aid trough. Does DW pay contingency for match shooting or something?







"In addition to the Valor series (which will include a bobtail) and the Heritage, they will have the CCO (alloy-framed officers) and the Guardian (alloy-framed, commander sized, bobtailed 9mm). No 10mm's or .40's next year though. There was a strip-down comparison and shootout done on another forum, comparing the Valor to some of the other higher-end 1911 with pretty impressive results for DW."

[stantonizm]

Yeah it is on a DW forum so theres going to be bias in the responses and I'm biased because thats what I own. Maybe it wasn't a fair comparison for the Fusion 9, but it seemed an equal comparison between the DW, Brown, Baer, Kimber, Sig, and Colt. Those are more the ones I was talking about. They were shot from a ransom rest with the same 3 ammo types used for each.

[gruntrus]

No, actually it's a 1911 Forum in the DW section, and it was more than a little biased. If that's your Kool Aid so be it, but could you lay off the soft sell BS for some objectivity. Thanks.

Ripping on the Brown? Misquoting the Fusion price? What was wrong with the Baer again? Wow. Shoot **** ammo outta the Fusion-what's the axe to grind with the last owner of DW, now the owner of Fusion?

DW drops most of their line and calibers, but they still can't do wrong? :barf:

:D

[hillbillyshooter]

The problem that I hear most about is that the Fusion was designed to be shot limp-wirsted!:D

[hillbillyshooter]

I was disappointed to hear about the change in DW's lineup because I was toying over the PM7 to be my next purchase. I think that the VBOB will do well, however. I also don't understand the dropping of the 10mm.

[ME109]

Don't get me wrong-I love my DW revolver, but cruising around those 1911 Forums the DW section seems to be drinking from a Kool-Aid trough.

No kidding. And dont get me wrong I love my CBOB, but the DW section is like a visit to Jonestown.

[gruntrus]

ME109"No kidding. And dont get me wrong I love my CBOB, but the DW section is like a visit to Jonestown."



Yup, I heard Jim Jones himself had a DW CBOB. The source of the Kool-Aid. :D

[stantonizm]

Lol. Thats pretty good. I agree, I wish they were keeping all the guns they had been making. I probably won't be able to afford another one for a long time. They seem to be trying to change their market from poor man's Ed Brown, to Ed Brown competitor. And it seems, at least from the kool aid I've been drinking, the Valors seem to compete reasonably well in that class and are still cheaper. They've still got the Heritage .45 which is more affordable. If you look back two or three years ago, I think the only models they had were the Pointman and CBOB. At least they aren't just upping the prices without upping the quality. Whether or not their decision to move to a higher price bracket is a good one, we'll have to wait and see. They're shooting for making 3500 guns next year and I doubt they will have trouble selling them.

No, actually it's a 1911 Forum in the DW section

I think its actually considered a sub-forum:).

[KyJim]

No, actually it's a 1911 Forum in the DW section, and it was more than a little biased. If that's your Kool Aid so be it, but could you lay off the soft sell BS for some objectivity. Thanks.

Ripping on the Brown? Misquoting the Fusion price? What was wrong with the Baer again? Wow. Shoot **** ammo outta the Fusion-what's the axe to grind with the last owner of DW, now the owner of Fusion?
I don't think it was really that bad. The 9mm Fusion is what he had to shoot. He niggled a little on lack of hand fitting the fire control on the Brown but then discussed the 3.75 pound trigger. Brown probably requires a little less hand fitting because they make their own parts on CNC machinery.

As far as the ammo choices, the point was to mostly shoot with common range fodder. The particular Brown didn't like WWB but it's not uncommon for a particular gun not to like particular ammo.

BTW, no kool-aid here.

Proud owner of DW CBOB, DW Valor (coming), Baer Stinger, and Ed Brown Special Forces and SF Carry.

Oh yes, I also own a Wilson.

[Sarge43]

All I can say is that if you want to know the real deal, then explore the improvements that DW is making across the board on their 2010 lineup. Compare the level of quality with what you are interested in from another maker. Compare the price to what you are interested in from another maker. THEN make your own decision. I own weapons from Taurus up through the layers to Wilson Combat and for me, I thought this was the year that I was going to pick up a Kobra Carry. After learning for myself what the improvements were, the pricing comparison etc, that notion is now gone from my head and I have a 2010 Black VBOB on order. Price? Low $1800 range. Still $700 cheaper than the KC I was wanting for a pistol that in my opinion, is a better weapon overall. That's MY decision. All you can do is make your own INFORMED decision. All of the misinformation and personal "attitude" in this thread doesn't serve anyone well. Again, just my opinion.
Whatever YOUR decision is or will be, it looks good from my house. :D
Good luck,
Sarge

[Warchild]

It'd be nice if you had the facts before posting such off hand condemnations.

The product manager for DW (Keith Lawton) regularily posts on another forum and has explained in full what their 2010 game plan is. To correct the most obvious misstatements / misunderstandings:
(1) DW is increasing their annual output from 3000 to 3500 units for 2010
(2) The CBOB is NOT discontinued and will be sold in CA while the rest of the country gets an improved bobbed commander in the VBOB (stainless or black) which is but one new model in the expanded Valor family. This because of the stupid CA approved gun list rules.
(3) 10mm and 40S&W caliber demand has dropped significantly so for 2010 they are on a hiatus. Special runs may be made in 2011.
(4) in response to requests, new for 2010 is a bobbed lightweight commander in 9mm called the Guardian
(5) significant component upgrades are being made across the line to include all pistols now with forged frames (alone a $100 per gun cost), new tool steel fire control and thumb safety parts, and the ceracote black finish being replaced with a more costly molecular bonding black treatment. These costs are significant factors reflected in the new pricing.

Improving upon a great product doesn't sound like a bad business decision to most of us who have looked beyond the rumors to see the whys and where fors. BTW DW isn''t the only maker showing price increases for 2010.... look around


Thank you sir for clearing that up. I'm familiar with the forum you speak of and Keith's posts, it's nice to have such an active member of a company seeking improvement from the very users of their products. How long have we been advocating a 9mm CBOB on that forum? :) Keith is da man!

[gruntrus]

It's a sub-section of the "Manufacturer" section, really. The Forum is for 1911 models, blahblah,...


So, what's the deal with your dog-pile on the Fusion guys? These dorks you have in the DW area like "Hail Caesar" and "billybobchrisJOHN" blowing a 12 year old's gasket about DW vs. Fusion, cross-linking all over the interwebs, then this "Hail Caesar" loser apologizes for being an ******* on pain meds for a back injury, but then his slandering Fusion continues anyway? The hard sell of DW ain't workin over there so you bring the soft sell around other forums? (The massively over-priced quote on the 9mm Fusion was the dead giveaway, while NOT giving a MSRP on any of the other weapons.) You DW 1911 guys are golden. Golden shower that is. :D


"I think its actually considered a sub-forum."

[vranasaurus]

I'll tell you what they're doing.

Making me want a guardian 9mm and a VBOB to go along with my CBOB. Even though I can afford neither right now.

[GONIF]

In this economy the price increase is going to cost them business. ;)

[hillbillyshooter]

gruntrus,
Not really understanding the hostility. If you don't want a DW, don't get one. If you want a Fusion or have one and like it then fine. One guy (very well respected custom 1911 gunsmith) did a shootoff and found that the DW performed well. If you believe it to be biased, then so be it, don't listen to it, or better yet perform your own shootoff and report back.

[Jason_G]

So, what's the deal with your dog-pile on the Fusion guys? These dorks you have in the DW area like "Hail Caesar" and "billybobchrisJOHN" blowing a 12 year old's gasket about DW vs. Fusion, cross-linking all over the interwebs, then this "Hail Caesar" loser apologizes for being an ******* on pain meds for a back injury, but then his slandering Fusion continues anyway? The hard sell of DW ain't workin over there so you bring the soft sell around other forums? (The massively over-priced quote on the 9mm Fusion was the dead giveaway, while NOT giving a MSRP on any of the other weapons.) You DW 1911 guys are golden. Golden shower that is.


I think you are off the mark a little bit. There will be a few people that make irate or unfair posts on any forum, but I think you are painting with a very big brush in terms of some of your remarks. "Jonestown"? Most of the folks in the DW subforum there are good people that are just happy with the product they have bought. Myself included. You will be hard pressed to find much slander of any 1911 manufacturers, especially from the regulars in the subforum. Sure, you may find a "Mimber" joke here or there, but no real slander. You can call it "kool aid" if you want, but I think the vast majority of what you are seing is just a high degree of customer satisfaction. The DW lineup has been about the best "bang for the buck" out there in 1911s for quite a while, and people are happy to own one. Add to that the fact that in the rare event people have a problem with their pistol, Keith or Scott are almost always "johnny-on-the-spot" to take care of the customer, and you have a pretty satisfied crowd. Whether the upcoming lineup will cause this to change is to be seen.

gruntrus,
Not really understanding the hostility. If you don't want a DW, don't get one. If you want a Fusion or have one and like it then fine. One guy (very well respected custom 1911 gunsmith) did a shootoff and found that the DW performed well. If you believe it to be biased, then so be it, don't listen to it, or better yet perform your own shootoff and report back.

I also don't understand your contempt about the "shoot-out" that was posted. The individual that did the shooting is a well respected custom pistolsmith in the 1911 community. He is VERY objective in advice that he gives to other members on the forum. I have seen him publicly point out DW shortcomings in the subforum. I can also guarantee that he absolutely has no axe to grind with Fusion. In fact, I believe this individual is a very close personal friend of Bob Serva. As far as misquoting the price, I believe he quoted the price he was given by the owner of the pistol. If you are the owner of that gun, or have found otherwise, then please advise. Agreed, the American Eagle ammo is not the best, but it was posted all over that thread that the comparison was not intended to be scientific, but just for fun.

If you don't like DW pistols or something, that is absolutely fine. I wouldn't try to convince you otherwise. Buy what suits you, I couldn't care less, but I just wanted to point out that you are starting to border on personal attack of people that I know, and I would appreciate it if you would keep the discussion about the original topic, and not individuals that are not here to defend themselves. I also want to point out that I don't intend for what I posted here to seem heated or angry, it's not, I just think we need to stick to the topic of the new DW lineup rather than talk about individuals or other forums.


Jason

[troy_mclure]

i can attest to the helpfulness of the guys on the dw forum(sub), i was one of the few to have a problem with my new dan wesson. guys on the forum took the time to call me and try walking a 1911 noob thru remedying the problem.
keith, the dw customer service guy contacted me and walked me thru it. even offered to send a shipping label.

the problem was a small ridge on the linkage that was missed, combined with the tight tolerances to lock up the gun.


i dont think the "koolaid" in the dw forum is any stronger than the glock, or Hk "koolaid" found in most gun forums, and theres lots more of those yahoos.

[gruntrus]

The reading comprehension is greatly effected by the Kool-Aid; as stated above I own a Dan Wesson and love it.

The link provided for the comparo. goes to an area where there was another "comparo." done by this "Hail Caesar" who blows his gasket about production "problems" which he never addressed with the Companies owner, then he apologizes for it as he is on some super-pain killers for a back problem and is the subject of an internal affairs investigation? *** turned it into Days of our Lives? He has cross-linked his drama queen scorching of an A+ gun builder to several forums. Get a grip.

I have no hostility or contempt for DW weapons-it's the douche nozzle owners over there that kinda remind me of crack-heads in the 8th grade. Oh wait, sorry, oxy/codein freaks. It's becoming entertaining watching them try to slip a noose on Serva and he won't succumb to the trolls. Take a look at where this "Hail Caesar" posts and look at the trash that follows. Is it cabin fever or are there more meds that need passin out? Have a great weekend.

[hillbillyshooter]

gruntrus,
So, you are saying that you are posting all this because "Hail Caesar" on the 1911forums did his own comparison and you didn't like it? And you are making broad statements about DW owners (even though you are one) because of this? Did you question or debate his points with him on 1911forums?
-Jonathan

[JohnKSa]

No "forum wars" on TFL.