Beginner what .22 rifle to go for?

[richfr]

Hi everyone I am new to the sport (and forum) and thinking of buying a .22 rifle for my first gun. I live in France and have to wait 6 months before I can buy anything interesting.
I was going to wait the six months and buy a 9mm pistol but that means relying on other members to lend me guns and sell me the ammo :( and most of the time I am just hanging around especially if the guys I know aren't there. I am very keen to learn and think it will be a long term hobby for me :D

I thought I would get a .22 rifle and as the ammo is cheap and will give me a good starting point. I will probably end up keeping it anyway but money is an issue if I want a 9mm in 6 months.
So do I buy a cheap Chinese Norinco JW15 kit (Alpen sights, silencer, hard case, cleaning kit and 500 rounds) or do I buy a quality rifle and use the iron sights for a while then get optics etc later?
What would you guys recommend?
I think they are a bit more expensive over here the JW15 kit would be €310 $430.

Thanks Rich

[fyimo]

I never vote to get a cheap gun except if the research shows it is dead reliable and decently accurate. Most cheap rifles have feeding problems and don't shoot very accuratly. I really can't comment other then that because I don't know what's available or the pricing in France.

[chris in va]

I don't suppose you can get a 9mm carbine like a KelTec or HiPoint? They're a lot more fun than a 22 rifle.

[Microgunner]

Always buy the finest firearm you can afford if you plan to use it. Good quality never goes out of style.

[hodaka]

Welcome Rich,

I would forego the Norinco and go for something American or European made. CZ's are popular over here as are a bunch of others too numerous to count. Are silencers easy to acquire there? There is a considerable extra tax on them here.

[Evan Thomas]

Welcome to TFL, and to our fine hobby... :)

A good bolt-action .22 rifle is the best possible tool for a beginner to learn to shoot well: it's very simple mechanically, so there's little to go wrong, and it's easy to clean and maintain; ammunition is cheap, so you can afford to shoot a lot; recoil is low, so you can learn correct form, practicing as much as you want without either wrecking your shoulder or developing a flinch or other bad habits.

The best value for money is probably the CZ 452 or 453 (latter is a bit more money and has a set trigger, which a beginner probably doesn't need). They are excellent, very accurate rifles. They're made in the Czech Republic, so I presume they're readily available in Europe. The Savage Mark II would be a good second choice if you're on a tighter budget, although I don't know relative prices over there...

With any rifle, learning with iron sights is good if you have the eyesight for it. If you do want a scope, stay away from package deals and buy a good scope separately -- the scopes included with package deals tend not to be very good quality.

[Buzzcook]

A .22 rifle is the way to go. Most used .22 rifles still work well and you can get a higher quality rifle than buying new. A bolt action is very simple technology and just about any major gun maker has a good .22 bolt.

As mentioned above, buy the best you can afford and it will last you a life time.

[Jimro]

If this is truly your first firearm, a Norinco JW-15 is probably going to give you a great first rifle to practice on.

You probably won't go out and start winning rimfire matches, but you will have plenty of opportunity to learn the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Jimro

[richfr]

Thanks for the info :) I kind of knew what the answer would be I just didn't want to spend lots of money keeping it for a 9mm :p

chris in va - I cant have anything other than .22 rifle or black powder for the first 6 months then almost anything goes (not allowed fully auto have to be converted to semi)

hodaka - Silencers aren't a problem here as far as I know.

Vanya - My eye sight is good, yes we can get CZ here http://www.tir1000.com/index.php?cPath=64_75 would be €390 $560 for a CZ452 on its own which would blow all my budget :rolleyes:
Maybe I should try to find something second hand?

[Jimro]

richfr,

If you can find a CZ second hand, or an older Anshutz in your budget, that would be good. Also Zastava puts out a 22 that Charles Daly imported, now Remington imports and calls the Model 5. I have one of the Model 5's and it is a very good rifle, mine was on sale for $150. If you see one for a good price I would snap it up.

Jimro

[trublu]

Buy this one (cz452 lux) (http://www.tir1000.com/product_info.php?cPath=64_75&products_id=548&osCsid=381f21456a4a5d10cadb621a75c1ec64) if you just want iron sights. I've got one like it and it's great - accurate and fun.

"blow your budget" - I think we've all done that :)

[CraigC]

They're a lot more fun than a 22 rifle.
What??????? :confused:

[Evan Thomas]

They're a lot more fun than a 22 rifle.
What???????
Well said! :D

Rich, you might also want to price the CZ 452 trainer -- same rifle, but with a birch stock instead of the walnut, for somewhat less money... and if you could find one of those, used...:)

[Tucker 2]

CZ... it is worth it. Particularly the full stock.http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/cz3.jpg (not mine).

[fisherman66]

I agree with CZ. I also agree with a full stock. Good lukin gun. Pardon my vernacular.

[Radagast]

Another vote for the CZ452. I've had mine for 12 years and have never regretted buying it and then waiting to be able to buy a scope.

[banditt007]

check out the CZ's or the brno's I have a CZ 452 american .22lr i love it. the CZ 453 as mentioned has a factory set trigger and costs $100+ more. IMO its not worth it, for $18 literally you can install a sweet, adjustable trigger kit in the CZ 452 which makes it the nicest trigger i've ever used (fairly limited experience w/ rifle triggers, but still, its really nice) For a bit cheaper you can get the CZ scout, which is everything that the CZ 452 is, but a cheaper stock. but all the workings are the exact same. You will not regret this purchase it makes many other .22's feel like a cheap toy. Of course there are nicer .22's out there but you will pay a good chunk of change more to get a real step up from the CZ

[Sport45]

If you don't mind the synthetic stock, a Marlin 981T makes a good beginner's rifle. I bought one for my son when he was 14 or 15. A few months later we put a 4-12 AO scope on it and he had no trouble at all hitting shotgun hulls at 50 yards. (Tin cans hanging from a wire at that distance were too easy so he started shooting the wire instead.)

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/images/zoom_981T.jpg

I like the lines of a tube fed .22 much better than I like the looks of one with the skinny magazine sticking out the bottom.

[Fullthrottle]

I am realy wondering what I missed. I know little of most of the .22's mentioned in this thread so far (except the Marlin). But nobody mentioned the Ruger 10/22(real popular here in the US), also inexpensive, localy $200usd or so. Can you get this rifle reasonably in France? If so, I highly recommend it for your use. As mentioned before stay away from scoped combo's (definately cheap scopes, I have found). No matter what you choose to buy(I say spend as much as you can afford to do), enjoy your new sport!

[Jimro]

The problem with semi-auto 22's for a first rifle is that it is way too tempting to just throw lead downrange instead of developing marksmanship skills.

Jimro

[Willie D]

Funny how no one bothered to Google the Norinco model and find out it's a CZ clone...

[Jimro]

I googled it, but I don't know if being a CZ clone is the same as having CZ quality....

I still think it would be a good first rifle, as MOST first rifles shoot better than first shooters :)

Jimro

[Fullthrottle]

"The problem with semi-auto 22's for a first rifle is that it is way too tempting to just throw lead downrange instead of developing marksmanship skills."

True but the key word is "tempting", not a problem depending on your intent for use!

"MOST first rifles shoot better than first shooters"
Another very good point, and Jimro, I do agree that a clone may or may not be as good of quality. Only manufacturing and quality control can prove one way or another!

[KnightofCydonia]

Go for a bolt action: Marlin 925

[richfr]

I haven't seen Rugger over here and not many Marlins :(
Really like the look of the full stock but its a chunk more cash.
Will try getting to the local shops see if there are any used ones.

[Sturm&Rugerfan]

cz usa makes some sweet looking and shooting rifles

[fisherman66]

Really like the look of the full stock but its a chunk more cash.
Will try getting to the local shops see if there are any used ones.

The look of envy you get when you uncase it at the range is worth the extra $. Plus, you tend to put a little extra care into protecting and maintaining it. There are times that a cheap gun will do, your first gun shouldn't be that gun IMO, expecially a 22lr which will see many decades of range use. That one should be a looker and fun.

How about a lever action 22lr? Ya'll have cowboy guns in Europe?

[rgates]

Welcome Rich.

I have a couple semi- 22's but my favorite is a lever action...Marlin 39A. Though they are a little pricey even here. Don't know what you can or can't get where you are but if they are available in your neighborhood, Henry makes a nice lever also and more reasonably priced.

http://www.henryrepeating.com/

[hotcha45]

I actually have one of the maligned Norinco JW-15s. I admit I bought it mainly to have sometning new to play with at the time, and have only shot it with the iron sights (decent accuracy) but here in the states w/o the silencer & hard case it was very inexpensive (this was a decade ago & it came in a cardboard box w/included scope rings). The fit and finish was decent, just hardwood with a walnut stain but nicely done and the metal work was competent with a decent even blue. It uses the hold-back-the-trigger system to remove the bolt so not much can be done as it as far as overtravel is concerned. I installed a PEM fastener in the back of the trigger guard so with a threaded small screw I can adjust the overtravel but then it has to be reset after a cleaning session. If I have a gripe it is that the safety lever on the bolt does not work real smooth as it cams back the firing pin and locks it, but it is a secure set up.

[hotcha45]

From your posts, it appears that the Norinco is not cheap in France now (if it ever was), so if you have the coin I would go with the nicest rifle you can afford. Down the road the better quality will give more satisfaction.
To go off-topic, I am surprised that you can even own guns at all. I would have guessed the gov't had disarmed citizens entirely. I have a tough time imagining walking into a gun store in France. Are there ranges available to you to shoot at? Sounds like there are from your post. What's the deal about six months? If you haven't turned into a crazed killer in that time you're allowed to buy more guns? Just curious about the laws on gun ownership in France.

[richfr]

Thanks for all the reply's guys i thought I had found a used CZ but he doesn't really want to sell it. He has said I can use it whenever he is at the range just need to buy the ammo so maybe no rush buying my own gun.

I was really surprised in the gun laws here (France) I only expected to be able to own .22 but if you join a shooting club (Tir) you can buy .22 rifle as soon as the license arrives in the post (2-3 weeks) only requires your name address etc then if you are seen at the club (think its 3 times in 6 months) you can apply for almost anything as long as its been altered to be semi auto there is a lot of paperwork needed Police checks etc. Ammunition is restricted so refills are popular on the larger calibers.
The range I go to is about an hour away English owned but a mix of English and French maybe 50% ex military and most use military caliber rifles and 9mm pistols. They are a decent bunch and willing to help me out.
As I said I am new to the sport and have only fired a few shots with a Glock 17, Beretta 92 and CZ75 I haven't even fired a rifle yet :rolleyes:
There are a few competitions among other clubs etc so I may get involved if my shooting is up to it. Early signs with the 9mm at 15 meters where good getting nice groups :D
i really liked the Beretta (Glock bit big for my hands) so maybe buy a new one when I get a license.

[PzGren]

Europe has been flooded with German .22 l.r. rifles that are of very good quality. You can find a used Anschütz or Voere much easier than a CZ or a Marlin. Voere is defunct but with a little luck you can find a 5 shot bolt action used for around €100. In Germany they cost about €30 to €100 but you would need to pay extra shipping and export certification, €79.80 total.

Gebühren für Exporterlaubnis inkl. versicherter Versand 79,80

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2542173

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2540113

[richfr]

Wow thanks PzGren :)
My German isn't up to much (Google translator is OK) and I really don't know what I am looking for etc may end up with a bad buy.
Are you based in Germany? Have you used egun before is it safe?
If I can get it shipped here for that price looks good if I can sort the paperwork :D

[DanThaMan]

Ruger 10/22 has been the best 22 lr I have ever owned by a long shot. It is reasonably priced, accurate, reliable, will eat any ammo, and can be modified a hundred different ways. I would begin by learning how to shoot well with iron sights. Save the optics for a tactical gun or for when your eyes fail you.

[PzGren]

Richfr,

I have used egun for several transactions and have mostly been very happy. If the seller has a positive feedback, or is a dealer like in the two links that I attached, you will not be disappointed. The dealers that offer export usually are fluent in English and knowledgeable about the legal procedures to get the deal done.

Anschütz rifles are very sought after and expensive in the States. You probably pay more for a used Ruger 10/22 in France than you pay for an Anschütz and having shot multiple specimens of both, I can assure you that the Anschütz or Voere is a better rifle.

Export to the States is very expensive and complicated, though. We have to go through an importer who will charge an extremely hefty fee and have to use an FFL dealer in the state of residence to transfer the gun.

[PzGren]

Ruger 10/22 has been the best 22 lr I have ever owned by a long shot

Dan, have you ever owned an Anschütz or CZ 452??? I know how rare Voeres are in the States, so I don't ask you that...

I have a nice old walnut stocked 10/22, aluminium trigger housing and buttplate - but even that one does not at all come close to my Anschütz 54 , nor anywhere near to a Voere semi auto.

[fisherman66]

I can assure you that the Anschütz or Voere is a better rifle.

The greatest 10/22 fan can't argue with that (well, I've never seen a Voere, but if it's anything like big A it will be a far superior target rifle.)

[richfr]

Pzgren (or anybody else that knows the site) I would really appreciate your help if you have the time.
I have no idea what I am looking at or what is a good buy :confused:
If possible I would like a nice quality rifle a scope and extras would be nice if its within or preferably under my budget €300 or so. The lower the price the more I have to spend on a 9mm.
Looking on egun there are plenty on there I just don't know whats what :confused:

[DanThaMan]

Dan, have you ever owned an Anschütz or CZ 452??? I know how rare Voeres are in the States, so I don't ask you that...

No I haven't... sorry If i made my response sound like I have owned many 22 lr's, I haven't. Limited to my own experiences, I can truthfully say the 10/22 has been the best for ME. That isn't to say there are other ppl out there like yourself who have fired the 10/22 and another rifle and have favored the other rifle.

[PzGren]

Dan

I cannot say that I favour the Voere, Anschütz, or CZ 452 over the 10/22 but particularly the Anschütz rifles are extremely well made and accurate.

The 10/22 is unbeatable for fun at the range:).



Richfr,

you have a private message.

[richfr]

I don't think semi autos are allowed on the basic license :rolleyes: so looks like it will have to be a bolt action for now maybe change it for a semi when I apply for the 9mm pistol license, if you apply for one license I don't think its any harder to get the second at the same time.

Thanks for the help PzGren I will be in touch as soon as I receive my basic license then I can start looking and bidding for an Anschütz :D
I am at the range tomorrow morning so hopefully the license will be there.

[mapsjanhere]

Well, the CZ is an extra 100 euros, but you will still be using it in the 7th republic. But for the first gun a used 22 might be the way to go, just to see if you have fun plinking or want something bigger.

[James R. Burke]

Get the best one you can afford at this time, and also feel good with. Also lots of folks like a certain look. So keep it all in mind. I would wait till you can afford the optics, which again will let you get a better rifle. Then get the best optics for what you have. I know sometimes it takes awhile to get it all together but it is nice having what you like in the end.

[richfr]

I have been offered a CZ452 Lux complete with the following for €350 ($500)
10 round steel mag
Trigger has been adjusted to 3gramms
Floated barrel (wood removed on stock so barrel floats without touching wood) for greater accuracy
Front sight ramp milled down and Parker Hale sights fitted (original sights retained and can be replaced)
Rear sights removed and Anschutz sights fitted (Bolt action had to be machined as did the sights to fit)
Telescopic sights 4-12x42
Bipod fitted (Harris style)
Silencer (very quiet)
Rifle sling
Rifle bag
All original parts retained

Does this sound like a good deal? Sounds expensive to me and no idea how good the customizing work is. A new Lux on its own would be €440 ($630)
Or am I better off with an Anschutz like this http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2570166#img probably work out slightly cheaper for the Anschutz.

:confused:

[dalecooper51]

The link you posted is for a .22 Hornet not a .22 long rifle. It is a centerfire cartridge. Very nice looking rifle but not a .22lr.

[richfr]

Dam :o see total beginner.
Thanks for letting me know :)

[LollerCopter]

Get the marlin tube magazine 14 shot semi auto, last time i heard they sell for 120 dollars. No gun is ever empty, and understanding this is the first step to becoming a responsible firearm user. No safety mechanism ever works, no visual check ever ever ever guarantees the gun is not loaded, never. Too many people assume this and end up dead every year, particularly with the .22 LR firearms.

[PzGren]

Get the marlin tube magazine 14 shot semi auto, last time i heard they sell for 120 dollars.

Did you take the time to look up where the O.P. is from?

This is an Anschütz and the seller is a dealer offering shipping within the E.C.

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2578068

Another one:

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=2508114

[Stevie-Ray]

This is an Anschütz and the seller is a dealer offering shipping within the E.C.No question that if Anschutz is cheaper in Europe, especially if cheaper than many of our weapons, that is the way to go, if possible. Personally, I'd love to have one, but $$$$! Strange, isn't it, that with today's import/export laws and tariffs, some of the cheaper guns we take for granted are priced astronomically, or simply aren't available, in Europe? And some of what we find exotic, desireable, and expensive turn out to be rather commonplace there.

At any rate, the OP seems to have a handle on what he wants, and I fully agree with his choice, as I generally recommend a .22LR, be it rifle or pistol, to anyone that asks, as a first choice. And these previous posts have pretty much all been good recommendations as far as brands go.

[richfr]

Been to the range today and had a go with a GSG-5 .22lr :D
Wow my first time shooting a rifle and I loved it :D
At 50 meters (54.68yards) on the stock iron sights I managed good groups all but 1 within the black :) my last round very good scores.
(our targets are like this probably different to yours http://images02.olx.fr/ui/1/97/44/13969344_27.jpg)
Been advised by somebody in the know the CZ is not worth the money and has offered to loan me a .22 until I get my full license and decide what i want to buy.
After shooting the rifle I have no idea what I would want to get (obviously I want everything) after shooting the 9mm I wanted one of them so will take my time get to know more before I splash out. Unfortunately I can probably only buy one when I get my full license.

Thanks to everybody for your help am learning a lot from this site.
PzGren thanks again Egun may be a good site for me to buy from when I am ready :)

[SVO]

My understanding is that CZ has discontinued the 452 model & has replaced it with the 455 model. Not that there shouldn't still be 452s still available.