Next Rifle: Bushmaster ORC

[bryceh12321]

I am thinking about picking this up as my next rifle. I found one for $850.

http://www.bushmaster.com/catalog_xm15_BCWVMF16M4ORC.asp

I was just wondering if I could get your opinion, or maybe theres something similar that would be even better for the same price. Thanks.

[Skyyr]

Here's a few things to consider:
- It doesn't have a front sight and it doesn't have a railed gas block. This means you'll need a scope to be able to shoot it at ALL.
- It includes risers, which are worthless (any AR-type scope needs to be mounted into an AR-type scope mount, such as a LaRue, BOBRO, etc).
- Back to the lack of a front sight, this means you NEED to have a scope. A "good" AR scope (something that won't rattle apart in 100 rounds) is going to run (at minimum) $200-300. In all actuality, you can figure about $500-600 for a scope that will allow you to shoot to your rifle's capability. A mount that will hold it's zero is going to run you another $200. You're looking at a required $500 further investment just to shoot the gun.

I'd suggest getting a flat-top AR with included iron sights, or simply a flat-top without them and purchase some cheap (yet amazingly good) Magpul BUIS. You'll end up spending $200 more than you currently plan on spending and be able to shoot it straight out of the box instead of having to invest another $500 before you can even find out if it works.

If you REALLY want to save money, then go with a CMMG Bargain Bin rifle:
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=2071335&cat=161&

You'll simply need a back iron sight (which can be purchased for ~$100 or less). I'd urge you not to get one with a fixed front sight, as flat-tops allow for more customization and interchangeability, but that's ultimately up to you.

[riggins_83]

I have a Bushmaster ORC and love it. It wears an Eotech 512 and a Hogue Grip, that's all I've changed.

http://i591.photobucket.com/albums/ss355/riggins_83/9024092340wkodlakhdfasdfwwhe.jpg?t=1260983069

[NSO_w/_SIG]

I agree totally Skyyr assessment, and don't think that having a fixed FSB will prevent you from adding an optic, the fixed FSB is the way to go IMO. I have optics from eotechs, to a couple 3x9's to a fixed 4 power ACOG all on standard flat tops with fixed FSB.


See Riggins set-up? Now if it works him that is great but I would not run that set-up because it has no BUIS, and with out a railed gas block or fixed front sight, he really isn't going to ever have a proper set of BUIS on that carbine.

So I say no thank you to this model Bushmaster.

[jdncsu]

here is an m&p 15 for the same price with folding battle sights..

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311002&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE


plus buy an M&P by 12/31 and get 5 free PMAGS.

[bryceh12321]

here is an m&p 15 for the same price with folding battle sights..

Now, can that front sight come off, or is it fixed to stay? Some guy told me at a shop yesterday that it can't be removed at all. I find that hard to believe.

[bryceh12321]

ee Riggins set-up? Now if it works him that is great but I would not run that set-up because it has no BUIS, and with out a railed gas block or fixed front sight, he really isn't going to ever have a proper set of BUIS on that carbine.

So, if I replaced that with a quadrail, that problem would be solved, correct?

[Skyyr]

Now, can that front sight come off, or is it fixed to stay? Some guy told me at a shop yesterday that it can't be removed at all. I find that hard to believe.


It's "permanent" because the front sight is built over an integrated gas block. It can be removed altogether, but you'd have to reinstall another low-profile gas block before you could use your rifle again (a $100+ job). This is another reason why flat-tops offer more versatility.



So, if I replaced that with a quadrail, that problem would be solved, correct?


Yes, but you're looking at ~$200 for the quadrail, and either ~$100-200 for the BUIS, or ~$200 for the scope (an intro scope - again, the "good" ones can run anywhere from $600 - $2500) and ~$200 for the mount. Best case, you're looking at another $300 (rails + cheap BUIS) and the "best" worst case you're looking at is another $500-700 (rails + optics).

For less than what you'd pay for the above gun + rails, you could simply get a flat-top (what you're calling a quad-rail) AR with iron sights. It's always cheaper to get the rifle with as many OEM parts as you can on it, as you'll pay less for them. The quad-rail you might pay $150 for would cost you $50 if you got it from the manufacturer on a rifle ready to go.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

Now, can that front sight come off, or is it fixed to stay? Some guy told me at a shop yesterday that it can't be removed at all. I find that hard to believe.

There is no good reason to remove the fixed front sight, it really does not get in the way of optics believe it or not and they are more robust than a floding system. Not that there is anything wrong with a front folding sight but most people will never even see the front sight post of the fixed FSB running a magnified optic, especially anything over 3x.

[knights_armorer]

here is an m&p 15 for the same price with folding battle sights..

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ategory%3DSMWE


plus buy an M&P by 12/31 and get 5 free PMAGS.

i would rather have a bushmaster and zero free mags. (although not that model)

[NSO_w/_SIG]

I'd rather build a BCM for slightly more and have something that is top of the line. But for what it's worth at this point in time I'd take S&W everytime over Bushmaster.

[knights_armorer]

if you ever want to spend a little more and truly be "top of the line" consider this.

http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr15_2.html

[NSO_w/_SIG]

No thanks, I know how good KAC is but it is not good enough to be double the price of a BCM or Colt. I'll stick to the AR's in the less than $1500 dollar price range.

[Skyyr]

I'd rather build a BCM for slightly more and have something that is top of the line. But for what it's worth at this point in time I'd take S&W everytime over Bushmaster.


Yeah. The thing about AR's is that they're modular, so you almost never just "buy a rifle" and end there. There is a significant cut-off point as far as prices and quality go and people, almost like clockwork, end up wanting to get something "nice" for their rifle without having a nice enough rifle to put it on. They end up paying for what they should have bought originally.

That said, to the OP: Don't try to skimp and save, you'll regret it. If you insist on wanting a complete, cheap rifle, get one with standard handguards and a fixed front sight and flip-up rear sight. If you want a nice rifle that will upgrade well into the future, then look at the following list:

Best of the best: Noveske
Best overall quality for the least money: LMT or BCM
Bargin bin (cosmetically not perfect, but run fine): CMMG

There's also Colt, Sabre, and Bushmaster, but you're going to pay more for the name brand as you would with Nike for shoes. The quality is there, but you're paying more for the name than the quality.

[Skyyr]

if you ever want to spend a little more and truly be "top of the line" consider this.

http://www.knightarmco.com/images/sr15_2.html


It's a nice rifle, no doubt, but it's not really a "top of the line" as much as it is an exclusive, proprietarily-constructed non-standard AR. It's nice, yes, but not worth the money, unless your specific mission/usage requires that specific configuration.

There's a reason Noveske is regarded as the best and that's because they pick the best components possible without prejudice and put them into a single weapon. They aren't brand-loyal nor do will they think twice about dropping a current component in favor of one that works better. THAT is what makes a manufacturer "the best."

[1832]

I bought a ORC BUshmaster about two years ago. I solved the front sight problem with a folding front sight from Bushmaster (the one that fits their Varmint model) and picked up a cheap folding rear sight. You can also lose the riser blocks and pick up a cheap carry handle.

[bobn]

i like bushmaster. i especially like the fact that it doesnt have a front sight in my line of vision. to me the riser blocks are a bonus. mine has a aimpoint on it. shoots as good as any other ar i have had. no function failures of any kind. jmho, bobn

[Quentin2]

The ArmaLite M-15A4CB is similar, no sights, but has a railed gas block. I got their upper in this configuration and really like it.

[bryceh12321]

Alright fellas thanks alot for all of your input. I think I'll:

Go with the Bushmaster ORC

Put a free floated handguard on it from Larue Tactical
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=46

Put their Dark Earth furniture on it.
http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=251

Then I can add BUIS, RedDot, Holographic, Lights, Lasers, and god knows what else to it.:D:D:D

Just two more questions.


1) What is the handguard length on the ORC? That has to be exactly right as far as length, correct?

and

2) What would putting that free floating handguard on be like? I'm thinking about either taking it to a smith, or get a barrel wrench, and doing it myself. How hard would that be to do it myself?

[Skyyr]

I hate to say this, but you're wasting your money. You're spending $1,322 on a Bushmaster Flat-top without BUIS. In terms of costs, that's insane.

You could buy a Noveske for only $170 more (http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=r-lcb-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=). To put it into perspective, that Noveske is the BEST entry model carbine you can get ANYWHERE. Period.

That said, looks like you've made up your mind. Best of luck to you in building your rifle.

[knights_armorer]

http://www.impactguns.com/store/COLT-LE6920BF.html

[knights_armorer]

or
http://www.impactguns.com/store/604206072221.html

[Quentin2]

Looks like standard M4/carbine handguards on the ORC, anyway it's not a middy. I would recommend looking harder at the middys from BCM and ArmaLite and others. The softer gas system is a real plus.

[bryceh12321]

Skyrr, what is so special about the Noveske? What separates it from the Bushmaster? Was the bolt tested in 50 ways to see how durable it was? Did they drop it from a cliff, into a sandpit, had a dragon breathe fire on it, and see if it would still fire? (Now that would be something to see).

To tell you the truth, I really was thinking that for the price I spent on accessories, I could get a nice rifle, but then I'll just spend even more for accessories, and then, guess what?! I could get the nicer AR, and the cycle continues. Besides, my money comes on a timeline, and I've waited long enough for an AR!;)

[knights_armorer]

honestly, he is correct. the n4 is a very well built rifle, with steps taken and components used that are viewed as superior by most.

but i dont think you would see a difference.

i would get the bushy and not think twice about it, but not the orc model.

maybe just the a3 shorty. im not a huge fan of bushmaster, but you have to give them credit for one thing, they put some great barrels on those rifles.

i also would go changing it up too much right away either. i would just get something like the a3 shorty, which can be had for just under 1k if im not mistaken, and use that 300-400 on ammo, and practice, practice, practice.

any run of the mill ammo will shoot great through it.

many say the gas key may not be staked on very well, but that has not been my experience with the ones ive worked on (which has to be at least 100 of them)

the only issue ive really seen enough to mention on them has been a poorly indexed barrel causing the fsb to lean one way or the other (ive seen maybe a half dozen or so like that) but they seem to have that behind them now.

[bryceh12321]

Yeah, I know it won't make any difference to me. I'm just curious what 'superior' means. If it affects accuracy, then I could care. But if the Bushy jams every 200 rounds for me, and the Noveske every 1000, big deal. I'm not running around shootin' ragheads in the desert. (Too hot in the desert for me).

[Skyyr]

This isn't about Noveske - it's about over-paying. Anything bought commercially (read: not OEM) will have a price double or triple what you would pay to get it on the rifle from the factory. It makes zero sense to buy a rifle for $850, then pay another $200 for a railed FF handguard, when you could have purchased a rifle straight from the factory for $900 with everything you wanted.

Let's not forget that if you do get the rifle in your current configuration, you won't be able to even fire it until you get sights or an optic. At that point, the Noveske would be CHEAPER (and it already comes with BUIS).

It's not about brands - it's about wise choices.

- - - - -

Since you asked about the Noveske...

The Noveske has multiple advantages.

For one, Noveske chrome-lined barrels are the most accurate chrome-lined barrel you can get, bar none. When chrome-lining is applied to a barrel, it is uneven at a microscopic level, resulting in noticeable less accuracy. This is why you won't see ANY competition accuracy shooter using a chrome-lined barrels. However, Noveske has perfected theirs to the point so that they're more accurate that most commercial match barrels.

Secondly, the modify their bolt carriers and use a bolt perfectly fitted to YOUR barrel. Bushmaster doesn't do this, nor do any of the other commercial manufacturers. They simply produce a barrel, a bolt, and throw them together.

The Noveske handguards are fluted / cut to make them as light as possible. They're one of the lightest handguards you can get and the finish on them is bar-none.

Even better, Noveske is a custom AR builder. They build every AR by hand, so if you want the furniture to be a different color, ask them and they'll change it, no charge and no problem. Want a better stock? They'll just charge you the price difference between the cost of the base model and the upgrade, unlike a commercial manufacturer.

I could keep going all day long, but the selling point and final bonus is that all Noveske's come with a lifetime warranty. If it breaks through the line of use or duty, it's replaced, free of charge.

They have their reputation for a reason.

[knights_armorer]

i think you would like either of these fine

http://www.impactguns.com/store/604206072221.html

http://www.impactguns.com/store/604206095961.html

if i were to pick one of these i would pick the top one. it will weigh about 8 oz more, but it would be a bit more accurate if you wanted to scope it and play around with benchrest style.

you can expect the bottom one to flirt with m.o.a. accuracy, and the upper one around 1.5-1.75 which aint too shabby either.

[knights_armorer]

For one, Noveske chrome-lined barrels are the most accurate chrome-lined barrel you can get, bar none. When chrome-lining is applied to a barrel, it is uneven at a microscopic level, resulting in noticeable less accuracy. This is why you won't see ANY competition accuracy shooter using a chrome-lined barrels. However, Noveske has perfected theirs to the point so that they're more accurate that most commercial match barrels

i wouldnt say that. a bushmaster 16" barrel will shoot m.o.a. without too much trouble.

they are good, ya, most accurate chrome lined barrel ever? lol, no.

[Skyyr]

i wouldnt say that. a bushmaster 16" barrel will shoot m.o.a. without too much trouble.

they are good, ya, most accurate chrome lined barrel ever? lol, no.


I think you're confusing chrome-lined and moly-chrome. Ask around - Noveske's biggest selling aspect of their barrels is that their chrome-lined barrels are the most accurate on the market. It's an industry-wide accepted fact.

[knights_armorer]

lol.

i have made my living working on ar rifles for 30 years (ok, 27)

i dont have chrome moly and chrome lined confused.

[knights_armorer]

also, that sounded snooty. im not the be-all-end-all ar15 armorer, so my apoligies.

you are right, john puts out some fine barrels, no doubt, i just think the o.p. would be fine to start out with a sub 1k carbine, and hone his skills, then if the time comes to step up to something better, he will know when its time.

[NSO_w/_SIG]

If you want to talk about value, with one of the best barrels for the money then look at Sabre, Sabre has excellent barrels and actually just secured a .mil contract to start supplying a certain amount of A4 and A3 models.

http://www.defensereview.com/sabre-defence-industries-awarded-m16-rifle-contract-m16a3-m16a4-rifles/

http://www.pkfirearms.com/content/1/20/86/138

[knights_armorer]

If you want to talk about value, with one of the best barrels for the money then look at Sabre, Sabre has excellent barrels and actually just secured a .mil contract to start supplying a certain amount of A4 and A3 models

funny story.

a good friend and i had a friendly $20 wager on whether his sabre target barrel could shoot as well as a white oak armament squad designated marksman barrel i had just installed for my nephew.

i gave him the 20 while i was still behind the spotting scope before i even shot because he put 10 shots into a quarter inch @200yds.

the white oak barrel may could have done it, but there is no way i could shoot a 10rd 200yd group the size of a peanut m&m, lol, so i just paid up

[bryceh12321]

Skyrr, I already knew that, but guess how many of those rifles I found with the BUIS, and Railed Handguards already installed? None.

[Skyyr]

Skyrr, I already knew that, but guess how many of those rifles I found with the BUIS, and Railed Handguards already installed? None.


Did you see the links knights_armorer provided? Both of those rifles had what you were looking for, and both were less than what you'd spend on the ORC.

Just look for them - they're there.

[bryceh12321]

And you do realize I could get any ole' quadrail handguard for less than 50$? The one I showed you is from Larue Tactical. Can I pay another 50$ for a rifle that comes with that quality HG? I think not.

And I forgot to mention the fact that Larue's would be a Free Floating HG. I really may end up just going with a cheapy since a carbine and freefloating barrel may not really be that practical. Maybe I'll put it on an AR-10 or something down the road. Not sure right now.

Your claim that the links would have what I'm looking for is incorrect. The rifles that Knight posted are $1000 and $1100 w/o shipping and FFL fees. They dont even come with the Handguard, one of them has the handle, and I would end up switching to a low profile gas block anyways. I believe my way would still be cheaper (unless I went the Larue route).

[knights_armorer]

well, the orc does not come with a railed handguard and no front sight at all.

no point in a rear sight with that model. it would be my last option in a bushmaster.

heres a pretty good rifle at a great price.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/022188127751.html

[bryceh12321]

Knight,

Can you foresee any issues with getting front and rear flip up sights and
mounting the front sight on the handguard rail? Or would accuracy issues make that impossible?

[Skyyr]

And you do realize I could get any ole' quadrail handguard for less than 50$? The one I showed you is from Larue Tactical. Can I pay another 50$ for a rifle that comes with that quality HG? I think not.


No, you're not going to find just a "rifle" with railed handguards for another $50 because every other manufacturers that sell AR's with railed handguards assume that the user is going to need flip up BUIS as well. Subtract the price of the BUIS (something you'll end up buying anyways) and you'll see that you're only paying $50-100 more for the railed handguards.

Your current plans are set to already spend $1325 on a rifle without sights or optics - for that price, there are several full RIS (railed) AR's with BUIS for less.

Listen man, no one's trying to tell you what to get - they're just trying to offer you advice based on previous experiences. If you want to buy an AR and then pay another $250 after the fact just to get your handguards, and still have a rifle you cannot in good conscience shoot (because only a complete moron would shoot a weapon without sights or optics), that's your call. After sights and/or optics, you're looking at $1450-$1500... and unless it's a top of the line weapon (which would have everything you wanted in the first place), then it's truly a waste of money.

Best of luck to you, regardless.

[bryceh12321]

Where did I say I plan on spending 1325$ w/o sights or optics? Remember I may decide against the Larue HG.

[knights_armorer]

are you comfortable changing the front sight base yourself?

its incredibly easy with the right tools. literally a 10 minute job.

a hammer. a taperpin punch. a block of wood. when i do it i replace the taperpins. they are about a dollar each.

[bryceh12321]

Yes, I'm sure that would be no problem if I switched to a low profile gas block. I could do that fairly easily.

I just meant mounting a flip up front sight to the picatinny rail. And would a longer picatinny just kind of fit over a low profile gas block? Or would I still have to have the carbine length one?

[knights_armorer]

Knight,

Can you foresee any issues with getting front and rear flip up sights and
mounting the front sight on the handguard rail? Or would accuracy issues make that impossible?

you could but i wouldnt. it just shortens an already short i.s.r.

[Skyyr]

Can you foresee any issues with getting front and rear flip up sights and
mounting the front sight on the handguard rail?


Your issue will be your sight length. All receivers have cant in regards to the barrel, so the iron sights become less effective as the distance you're shooting increases. In all honesty, you probably won't be able to accurately hit a target past 100yds (if that) with two BUIS mounted on the upper receiver.

You want the BUIS to be as far away from each other as possible.

[bryceh12321]

Skyrr, I had a reply from Larue Tactical this morning. He said I could fit a 10 inch handguard on that ORC, even though the one it comes with is only 6 inches I believe. How would that work? Does it just fit right over the top of the gas block? It seems to me like that wouldn't work as there wouldn't be enough room inside, but idk.

[knights_armorer]

that would work but i agree with skyyr, its not how i would go about it.

it is able to be done because most railed float tubes are 2 piece (barrel nut goes on, then the guard spins onto that and is big enough to pass over a low profile f.s.b.

i dont like front sights on the handguard though (personal preference)

[Skyyr]

Skyrr, I had a reply from Larue Tactical this morning. He said I could fit a 10 inch handguard on that ORC, even though the one it comes with is only 6 inches I believe. How would that work? Does it just fit right over the top of the gas block? It seems to me like that wouldn't work as there wouldn't be enough room inside, but idk.


Provided there's enough clearance under the rail, then yes. You'll need to either measure the width and height (length isn't an issue) of the gas block, then find out if the handguard has enough clearance inside to slip over it. It should, but you'll need to find out for sure first.

The LaRue handguard will simply cover another 4 inches of the barrel, that's it. It'll allow you to mount a BUIS farther forward, as well as grips/bipods/etc. It'll also make your rifle slightly more muzzle-heavy, but aside from the above, it's purely cosmetic.

[gotigers]

here is a M&P 15 for $699

http://www.pistolandpawn.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=86&products_id=59597&zenid=4735ad283f209e92d8c3fd7c301e39f5

[NSO_w/_SIG]

I still have not heard why you are so set on flip up front sights. If you want I can take pictures through my scope to show you that it is not an issue with most optics.

Before we go any further can you give us an idea of what optic you are thinking about putting on this carbine?

Pat Rogers and other well respected guys that run alot of rounds through the platform are advocates of the fixed fsb. Unless this is going to be an SPR or a precision rig, which I assume it is not sense you are buying a carbine length set up, I'd just forget the flip up fronts.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g56/hitman1415/blackrifles2.jpg

That is a 3-9 power luepold in a larue lt-104 mount sitting on a 6.8 spc stag in the middle there and the front sight is not visible on any setting.

[bryceh12321]

I haven't decided if I'm going to put a red dot or a holographic on it yet. A friend of mine has two flip up sights and a holographic, and I really like the way it lines up. And then you can flip both down to use just the holographic.

The reason I don't like the front fixed sights is because I'm going to put a much longer handguard on it, so I'm going with a low profile gas block. (And I think they're as ugly as Nancy Pel....no not that ugly....I just don't like 'em).

[NSO_w/_SIG]

Hey if you don't want it, you don't want it..... I just wanted to make sure you knew that almost any sight you can think to put on an AR would work with a fixed fsb. And that most people prefer it on a fighting style carbine. I like them with the RDS because of the ability to co-witness. Sounds like you have no interest in doing that though.

[gotigers]

NSO_w/_SIG is right. "if you don't want it, you don't want it". I agree. I have a fixed FSB on my M&P15 with an Eotech xps and rear YHM BUIS. That is why ARs are so popular, everyone gets what they want. The longer rail that you want will give you a better site radius.

you might want to find a good lower and put a BCM midlength upper on it.

[pilpens]

S&W ORC AR - $699

http://www.pistolandpawn.com/store/i...c3fd7c301e39f5