Best long gun for bear defense... the verdict is in!

[brmfan]

I always see discussions about what is the best rifle/ caliber for a defensive long gun in bear country. Well, I was just watching that new show about Alaska State Troopers, and one guy had the unenviable job of checking (by himself) the bear bait stations out in the sticks. If you watch the show, you will have noticed that this agency has the latest and greatest of all equipment at their disposal. So what did he end up choosing for his personal protection against hungry Kodiak brown bears? An 870 stuffed with slugs! I respect the you-know-what out of those folks, so if that's what they rely on then to me that settles the debate!:D

[Mello2u]

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max or a .450 Marlin loaded with 400 grain hard cast slugs at about 2000 fps.

[dreamweaver]

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max

+1

[tranks]

i watched that too. i don't remember if they said what they were using for shells.

either way, a 1 oz slug is about 430 grains. so if you get some strong rds, you'll have about the same as the 45-70 anyway.

[riggins_83]

I'd rather have a 18.5" barreled Marlin lever action with either a 45-70 loaded up to max

+2

[HiBC]

Not all shotgun slugs are created equal.The old standard,pure soft lead ,common rifled slug is a poor penetrator.When I really needed some to work on Mr Bear,I was disappointed.
Properly loaded,I'll agree his 870 is an OK choice,Words like "Best" always inspire comment.
Seems I recall some form of Cov employees in AK being issued Sako .375 H+H's
It might depend on the moment you need one.

[GojuBrian]

Take a "friend" and all you'll need is a pocket .22lr. :D

.22lr bear defense

1) See bear coming at you and friend

2) Draw your .22lr

3)shoot 'friend' in the thigh

4)leave area asap

[Powderman]

Friends, a 1 1/4 oz. slug weighs 547 grains--which is right about the weight of the old 45-70 round. Now, the slug has a muzzle energy of 2805 pounds--which is actually equivalent to the full load of a .45-120 Sharps.

Step up to the 3 inch slug at the same weight, and you're throwing over 3000 lb of energy at Brother Bear. That beats a .45-70 all to hell and gone.

I'll take a semi auto, chambered for 3" slugs, with a CompStock on the back, and Vang-Comped on the front, thank you very much. Actually, for Bro Bear, I believe the ideal arm would be a Saiga 12, loaded with full power slugs and a couple of 10 round mags. If not that, then a Remington 1100 with an 8 round capacity will fit the bill well.

[troy_mclure]

i feel safe with my ruger sbh in .44mag, load 'er up hot with 300gr hard cast full wad cutters.

[sourdough44]

375 H&H.

[Dutchmano1]

I've heard soft slugs are poor penetrators as well. What would constitute an excellent high quality slug/excellent high quality penetrator? :confused:

[Falcon5NZ]

What about those 300 gr jacketed Hornadys (http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=shop/browse&category_id=d27c0a040bea71ad74e3d35d6bc0ec9e) with the SST Ballistic Tip

[Jimro]

You know the Parks service did a study on long arms for bear country in Alaska a few decades ago, and their choice for "best stopper" was the 458 Win Mag.

Evidently a 500 grain pill at 1950 fps is a good choice.

Jimro

[brmfan]

I think the total package is more important than caliber alone. Like Powderman alluded to, speed of follow ups, overall handling, and reliability are key just like any other firearm. I guess my point was when these folks have every kind of gun & catridge imaginable (including those mentioned) at their disposal, it's interesting that they opt for the 870.

[Zhillsauditor]

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[moosemike]

A 12 gauge Foster style slug would absolutely be my choice. Forget .45-70's, up close and personal the 12 gauge rules.

[Al Thompson]

Dutchman, the Brenneke slugs are considered to be very hard. Kent cartridge loads them for a decent price. :cool:

[crimsondave]

+1 on .375 H&H

[bamaranger]

Don't know about Park Service study regards .458. Certainly could have been done.

Have worked w/ one guy who stated he kept a Rem 870 folder on his person when working afoot in Alaska in the early 90's, loaded w/ slugs, but he did not advise load.

During a big oil spill a few years later, a number of NPS LEO were detailed to Alaska to act as bear guards for personnel actually doing the cleanup.
A guy assigned to that detail told me they took 870's which are agency std loaded w/ slugs, again I never thought to inquire regards load. Agency std is 1 oz, 2 3/4 inch, but there may be exceptions in bear country. There is for carry handgun.

[.300 Weatherby Mag]

I have family that live in bear country... The preferred weapon is a shotgun with slugs.. Centerfire rifles, a .375 works well and so does a hot .45-70 load from a guide gun... No matter what you guys think, unless it's an extremely lucky shot all a .44 mag will do is make the bear mad... If confronted by a bear, a double rifle .470 nitro express would be my choice....

[blhseawa]

+2 .375 H&H Magnum

YMMV

[roklok]

The Alaska State Troopers use Brenneke slugs. The soft Foster style are poor performers on large game where penetration is required. Troopers are issued two long guns, an 870 and either an AR-15 or M16. Given those choices, which would you take into the brush in bear country ? Some of the wildlife Troopers do use a variety of different rifles they take from the stockpile of weapons confiscated in wildlife cases. I have a friend who is a wildlife Trooper, he took a Remington 600 .350 Rem Mag to use on duty and I know of another who uses a Pre-64 Model 70 in .338 Win Mag.

Personally, I would agree with those who say 45-70. My favorite 45-70 handloads throw a 405 grain bullet at 2060 FPS, giving 3815 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle and deeper penetration than slugs. This combined with a trim, lightweight lever rifle is a hard combination to beat.

[stevelyn]

i watched that too. i don't remember if they said what they were using for shells.

AST uses Brennekes same as us.

I've done 3-4 DLP kills in the last 8 years all but one were done with Brenneke slugs. They leave and innie and an outie.

The one I did with a .375 last fall was a complete waste of a good 300 grain Nosler Partition.

A 12 gauge Foster style slug would absolutely be my choice. Forget .45-70's, up close and personal the 12 gauge rules.

Fosters are fine for back bears since there isn't as much to them as you think, but you aren't getting me to crawl around in the alder bushes with them for brown bears especially late in the fall after they've fattened up and there is more mass to penetrate. Fosters are nothing more than lead thimbles and flatten out quick.

What about those 300 gr jacketed Hornadys with the SST Ballistic Tip

Too frangible. Hardcast is best.

[sc928porsche]

I still prefer my 378WBY.

[4sixteen]

Famed Alaskan hunting guide Andy Runyan's caliber of choice was the 416 Remington magnum loaded with 300gr Barnes X bullets at 2800+ fps.

[NWCP]

I have a Browning BAR in .338 win mag. With the right ammo and a well placed shot it will take anything in the lower 48 and possibly Alaska as well. I don't feel under gunned when carrying the .338.

[mavracer]

Step up to the 3 inch slug at the same weight, and you're throwing over 3000 lb of energy at Brother Bear. That beats a .45-70 all to hell and gone.
from Buffalo Bore websight.
45-70 Magnum - Lever Gun Ammo - 430 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,925fps/M.E.3,537 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box
we must have a difference of opinion of beating something to hell and gone.

as to the OP I'd take either my 45/70 or 870 in that situation.

[30-30remchester]

I am not disagreeing with slug usage however your standard Walmart foster slugs are way too soft for much penatration. A meat cutter from back east in whitetail country says he gets a coffee can full of flattened slugs each year from deer brought to him for processing. If it will stop in a small whitetail it aint bear medicine in my book. Second their are some very hard slugs out their that should be way more effecient. One thing I have not heard discussed and worth bring up for consideration is the frontal area of the slug. The larger the frontal area the less penatration. This isnt theory but fact. In Africa the mighty 577 and 600 nitro's have a poor reputation for penatration because of their wide flat profile. These behemoth rounds fire 750 and 900 grain bullets at 2000 feet per second. That is 700 feet per second faster than a 12 guage slug, with a smaller frontal profile than a 12 guage. Not arguing that a good hard cast 12 guage wont topple a big bear fast, just something to consider. Lasly dont ever count on the fictitious "knockdown power" it aint there. I shot a small mule deer doe , that had been crippled by a car, in the head at 10' with a 12 guage slug. I shot her between the eyes, I missed the brain by an inch. She didnt even flinch. Im not sure she even blinked her eyes. Just a 1" hole developed between her eyes and a small amount of blood. Had to get another round out to finish her. Just some observations for consideration.

[4sixteen]

A-Square, which specializes in building dangerous game rifles, believes that typical sub-forty caliber magnum cartridges do not transmit sufficient shock to put down large dangerous animals instantly.

High velocity forty + caliber magnum cartridges with properly constructed bullets have what it takes, according to their product literature.

[Johnny Guest]

I keep coming back to the difference between a proper arm for defense against bear, as opposed to one for hunting bear. If my object was to locate and kill a brown bear, under a variety of conditions, I'd probably use my .375 H&H, or .35 Whelen. Each wears a good optical sight, and I'd be set to make a good shot out beyond 200 yards.

If just going about other business and wanting a defensive arm, I'd be more likely to carry my Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun or my 20" Remington 1100 loaded with Brenneke slugs. Each has iron sights, is lighter and more compact than the hunting guns, and can make repeat shots more quickly. And yes, I'd pack a heavy sidearm as well, if only for added confidence.

Disclaimer: The ONLY bear I ever killed was a large cinnamon black bear. It fell nicely to a single handloaded Sierra 165 gr. GameKing from my old Ruger .30'06.

[Stevie-Ray]

I've always said I'd prefer my FAL for pure bear defense. 20 fast-firing 7.62 bullets sounds better to me than a few of those 3-400 grain pills.

[ritepath]

Funny I'd rather have anything in semi-auto over a pump or lever action. I have a bad habit of jamming both up when I get in a hurry shooting...which I'd probably be in a hurry if a bear was coming in on me.

[mapsjanhere]

I don't care which caliber, as long as it has a bayonet mount :D

[Palmetto-Pride]

What about 5.56/223.......................j/k

You are all wrong you don't need a gun at all, just a fat friend that you can out run................................:)

[HorseSoldier]

An 870 stuffed with slugs! I respect the you-know-what out of those folks, so if that's what they rely on then to me that settles the debate!

What Roklok already said, I believe -- AST issues shotguns (as does Anchorage PD and pretty much every other LE agency in the state), they don't issue 45-70s, 458s, 30-06s or whatever else. The shotgun is a nice, versatile weapon that, loaded with slugs, can add dangerous game protection to its resume. A 0.400"+ big bore hunting rifle isn't really a multi-trick pony.

If I'm not mistaken, the guy who teaches bear defense for the various federal agencies that have scientists and such out in the woods and bush up here is a big fan of 45-70 for bear defense, though they also primarily use 870s with slugs, because that's what the .gov bought for them for bear/moose defense.

[p99guy]

always take a co-worker with you that cant run as fast as you, and hang a pork chop off the back of his rucksack when he isnt paying attention....you get a steadier shot that way.:D

[javven]

12ga with slugs in 3" is going to cap around 3000 ft lbs of energy. A 45/70 with ammo designed for modern rifles can exceed this according to advertised data. I have recently seen a 3.5" slug round for the 12, with 3700 ft lbs of energy advertised. My shoulder hurts just thinking about it.

The 12 also has the advantage of being cheap, easy to find and arguably has more utility. If you're going into the woods sometimes it's nice to have birdshot and / or buckshot around.

[Bigfatts]

I say lure them out in the open and hit 'em with the Hammer of Dawn... Seriously though, I'd take a 12ga loaded with Brenneke slugs.

[4sixteen]

In a close quarters defensive situation with a large grizzly intent on hurting you, you're likely to get only one shot to put it down.

If it doesn't go down and stay down, it will most likely pounce on you in an instant. So much for repeat shot capability then which only offers a false sense of security.

Maybe use a single shot whatever for the psychological advantage?? :D

[Tommy Vercetti]

the most popular rifle caliber growing up was 30-06, everybody liked showing off their ought sixes and if they didn't have one to show off they sure had an 870 to show off, Wingmasters were popular but I always thought the barrels were too long

[javven]

I'm from AK myself - the locals, in my experience largely recommended a shotgun. IMO semi autos have no business in a place where your life is on the line vs. an animal. Spray and pray is no substitute for the right bullet in the right place.

There's no reason NOT to have a follow up shot.

[Falcon5NZ]

This is one of those situations where the saying's "Ammo is cheap, life is expensive" and "Anything that's worth shooting, is worth shooting twice" and to a degree "It's better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6" (the "carried by 6" bit anyway)

[troy_mclure]

No matter what you guys think, unless it's an extremely lucky shot all a .44 mag will do is make the bear mad.

this doesnt make much sense as tens of THOUSANDS of bears were killed by .50 patch & ball muzzle loaders, the .44mag is right there with ft/lb energy, a HOT .44 mag load will exceed it.
thats aside from the fact that theres several popular hunting shows that have recently showed guys taking a variety of big game with a ruger srh hunter in .44mag, including a big brown.

[Sport45]

tens of THOUSANDS of bears were killed by .50 patch & ball muzzle loaders

Is that in hunting or self defense situations? There's a big difference in ease of shot placement. It's pretty easy to hit the "off button" when the bear's head is buried in a trash can and much harder if the thing was charging you. But I say that only in armchair quarterback fashion as there are no bears around Houston that are likely to be attacking me. :)

[troy_mclure]

i doubt back in the pioneer/old west days when most of the nations bears were killed off(griz are still protected in the lower 48) that they baited with slop!

[Sport45]

No, I was injecting a little humor there, but they may have been baited with something. My point was that if you're hunting the shot is probably taken from a distance at a stationary bear. By definition, a self defense shot would have to be taken at a charging animal.

[Bart Noir]

My suggestion:

Pay attention to the advice of those who are actually up there in Brownie country. They tend to be a little more "focused" on the issue at hand.


i feel safe with my ruger sbh in .44mag, load 'er up hot with 300gr hard cast full wad cutters.

Troy, you are on the Gulf Coast, fer Pete's sake! Do you even realize how honkin' big an Alaskan brown bear is?

It doesn't matter how you feel. The bears don't pay attention to your feelings. The two bear-lovers who were eaten a few years back, they "felt" safe, didn't they. And the body-recovery team had to shoot their way in and out of that camp. Using big rifles and shotgun slugs IIRC.

Bart Noir

[darkgael]

Not in brown bear country myself, just blacks roaming through the yard. They look big enough up close.
I like that differentiation between hunting and defense. I think of it as between hunting and stopping. Lots of cartridges/guns will kill a big bear. That .44 mag will. But......not every one will stop a riled up bear charging. It seems to me that you'd want a gun that will do that - stop the animal very definitely...there (not here) and now (not in ten seconds) with one shot. Robert Ruark wrote a book entitled "Use Enough Gun" - I'd want more than enough gun. Lightfield slugs deliver between 3300 and 3800 ft.lbs of ME depending on whose stats you read, a hot 45-70 will do about 3800, the .375 gives you 43 to 4500, the .416s are over 5K with good penetration. Energy isn't everything but it helps. The 12 ga. is the fattest but the others are pretty big slugs too. I'd be carrying one of those four one sixes, if I had the choice.
Pete

[GONIF]

I would feel well armed against any bear with my CZ 550 american in 458 Lott with Hornady 500 grain sp ammo . I do own a Marlin 1895 in 450 Marlin ,but I would feel more confident with the CZ .

[edward k]

i lived in alaska for about 7 years but never shot a grizzly. i did however have a friend empty his 44 blackhawk into one at about 10 yards and it just walked back in the bush. my friend also left. lol ed k

[troy_mclure]

Troy, you are on the Gulf Coast, fer Pete's sake! Do you even realize how honkin' big an Alaskan brown bear is?

It doesn't matter how you feel. The bears don't pay attention to your feelings. The two bear-lovers who were eaten a few years back, they "felt" safe, didn't they. And the body-recovery team had to shoot their way in and out of that camp. Using big rifles and shotgun slugs IIRC.

Bart Noir


actualy i have been quite close(20') to a big brown bear in western canada. i was in a canoe, and it was looking at me.

just because i live in the gulf coast now doesnt mean this is ONLY where i have lived/been.

[Old Grump]

I use fosters on deer because they are a small soft target and they are a little more accurate. Bear country it would be my Winchester semi auto with Brenneke slugs. It is ported, has 3" chambers, 18 1/2" barrel and rifle sights. Lighter and handier to carry around than a rifle for close up and personal self defense. For hunting bear a rifle would be my choice but walking around camp or standing on the river bank with a fishing pole give me the 12 gauge. Its a confidence factor thing.

[Deaf Smith]

I'd rather have a AK-47 and 50 round drum. Half ball, half tracer.

I want the bear to see incomming!

[danweasel]

Brenekke Black Magic and a Mossberg Mariner. That's my "warm feelings in the woods" gun. I am in way a local but this is what I have been recommended by many. 45-70/.450 Marlin would be my second choice.

[Buzzcook]

When dealing with truly dangerous animals I think over kill is a good thing. That's why I heartily recommend the 4 bore double rifle for magical grizzlys, that appear at 20 yards. 2 quarter pound or larger bullets will make stew out of the angriest brown bear.

[Westcoaster]

Some good information shared here. I'll throw in my two bits worth.

There is a significant difference between bear killing and bear stopping. Example, 3 bears ago I nailed a good sized blackie in the boiler room - knocked him rolling - he got up and took off running away. I nailed him again, same place, knocked him down. Now he got up and charged me. He never made it back to me. That was with a 338wm with 250grn NP's. When we caped it we found that the bear was dead on the first shot - he just didn't know it.

Last two bears just dropped in their tracks. Bears are like people in that they are all different. Seems like about 1 in 10 will make life interesting.

For stopping I pack a 416 Rigby and yes, I am proficient with it.

For hunting I use a 338wm.

I have a Winchester Model 1300 that I used to pack for this purpose, I practiced with it until I was proficient. FWIW I think a pump action 12 guage is a little light in hitting power for bears and harder to shoot well. Remember this is an animal (g bear)that can grab a moose carcass in it's jaws and just walk away.

[flathead253]

How about an Alexander Arms .50 Beowulf...with muzzle brake and fast trigger?
More shots in precious few seconds, greater probability of 1 or 2 hitting vitals, heavy wide bullets ...what say you?

[zincwarrior]

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. :D

If it were just me, I'd just settle for a short barrel Mossberg or Remington (you have to lug that sucker about) or a Springfield M1 / AR10 .308.

[giaquir]

I'll just stay in New Hampshire and live
vicariously through you guys:)

[Art Eatman]

Ah, necrothreadia!