Ready Position Debate

[ChaseSmallwood]

Alright, I just took my CCW class, and the instructor insisted that the high ready position was a better option. I know of three ready positions. High, pointing upwards, low, pointing down and away, and my preferred, chest, at chest level pulled in tight. He said low and chest the gun was still pointed at someone. My argument was, as long as you follow the safety rule of keeping your finger off the trigger, in a defensive situation the chest position offer the best strength, speed, and options, and anyone in the class is here to be able to use it in a defensive manner. I want to hear your opinions on the subject and any points you may have. Thanks in advance.

[MTT TL]

The Army has switched from high ready to chest pulled in tight for CQB. The weapon is more rapidly brought into action and under better control.

The difference in the scenario for SD/HD vs Combat makes it problematic though. You have to consider what type of situations you would likely encounter and the laws of your state relating to what constitutes assault.

[Dwight55]

I personally prefer the high ready myself, . . . having done it that way for X number of years. That is the way I carry my rifle, . . . shotty, . . . pistol, . . . ball bat, . . . piece of black pipe, . . . or whatever other club I come up with.

Chest level, . . . pulled in tight, . . . it just is not comfortable, . . . nor does it feel "normal" to me.

Low ready can get you a muzzle full of dirt, snow, sand, . . . whatever is down there if you go down on one knee.

Anyway, . . . my $.02

May God bless,
Dwight

[Deaf Smith]

Use the SUL. It's good as any and better than most.

[Mello2u]

ChaseSmallwood
Alright, I just took my CCW class, and the instructor insisted that the high ready position was a better option. I know of three ready positions. High, pointing upwards, low, pointing down and away, and my preferred, chest, at chest level pulled in tight. He said low and chest the gun was still pointed at someone.

I want to know what we are talking about here.

I assume we are only talking handgun ready position because the OP talked about a CCW class.

I think that we may be assuming that we all mean the same thing when using any of the three terms.
Low Ready
High Ready
Chest

I learned a version of the Low Ready at Gunsite. The handgun was held with both hands, down at belt level about a foot away from the body with the arms somewhat under tension. The muzzle is pointed down at about a 45 degree angle. This was modified if close encounters with a threat might be possible by pulling the gun in higher and close to the body.

I have only recently had some training which included a "Chest" hold. I was taught to hold the handgun with both hand in close to the chest at the level of the sternum with the gun pointing downward at about 45 degrees and off center to my weak side a bit.

Neither of these two ready positions points a weapon at someone unless you want to.

I have no experience with the "High Ready". I hope we are not talking about the way Hollywood has actors carry guns around for the cameras. Describe what it is and I might learn something.

[ChaseSmallwood]

When I say "chest" I mean if your were to aim your weapon and pull it straight back to your chest. I never assume the threat will be seven to ten yards away standing still. If using high or low ready at close quarters the attacker has a huge leverage advantage. The closer you keep the weapon to you the more strength and control over it. When at "chest" I have the muzzle pointed in the direction of greatest threat. At close quarters, if someone was to grab you while in high ready, your arms would either be pinned between you and them, or you would have to push out the top. Then your only shot would be towards yourself through them. If at low ready your only shot would be to the legs, not really a show stopper. Now if at the discussed "cheast" you would be in a position to shoot center mass. I've trained at this and I can hit targets at seven yards no problem. Now at any greater distance, or if time allowed I will extend, find sights, and fire. No matter what you choose all safety rules apply.

[NCPatrolAR]

EAch position has its advantages and disadvantages. The situation you are in will dictate which is best to use at that moment. It pays to be well versed in each of them.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

It depends.

[BikerRN]

I'll echo what NCPatrolAR said:

EAch position has its advantages and disadvantages. The situation you are in will dictate which is best to use at that moment. It pays to be well versed in each of them.

Biker

[raimius]

The chest position is the best for immediate employment and control, but you will sweep pretty much everything in front of you.

Low ready is fairly natural for a lot of people, and only sweeps the ground/floor in front of you.

High ready is the same, except the possibility of the bullet landing in parts unknown increases dramatically.

Sul doesn't leave you in a combat grip, but only sweeps directly below (although sometimes your feet are there!)

In a threatening environment, I'd favor the chest position.
In an unknown environment, I'd probably go for low ready.
In an environment with a lot of friendlies in close proximity, Sul is probably preferable.

[Shawn Dodson]

I use a variation of SUL for movement.

As for "ready" position, I use "ready position" (some call this "high ready" or "point shoulder"). Depending on circumstances I may compress my ready position ("compressed ready" what some here call "chest") or I may bring it all the way back to retention position.

[N.H. Yankee]

I prefer chest, if things have progressed to where I have to pull my weapon, its already reached a high threat level.

[smince]

Sul doesn't leave you in a combat grip,But target acquisition from SUL can be performed very quickly.

[matthew temkin]

When working in a stack, or with other officers present, SUL has great merit.
( You can use SUL with one or two hands)
I would also use it when directing my family into a safe room/zone.
Phil Singleton of SAS fame teaches SUL in his hostage rescue classes.

[NCPatrolAR]

I dont know if I would classify Sul as a ready position. For me, a ready position is a position where you are able to immediately place rounds on a threat as soon as it presents itself. With Sul, you must reorient the pistol from being parallel with your sternum to it being perpindicular to your sternum and pointed at the threat (when dealing with a threat directly in front of you).

Sul can also be a weaker position to try and retain the weapon in. Since you are basicly holding the gun with three fingers (middle, ring, and pinkie) it can be easier for a person to strip the gun from your grasp should the distances close quickly.

When it comes to ready positions each one has its own set of issues. When doing low ready, people will typically have the pistol pointed way too low which increases the time in takes for them to get on target. When we teach low ready, the guiding principle we use is that the shooter should be able to see just under the hands.

When it comes to the compressed ready or "chest" position as some call it; we often see people bring the gun too far to the rear. This isnt an issue until they fire a round and retard the action of the pistol and induce a malfunction. Ideally, the shooter's hands should be about 2 fists width from the sternum to prevent this from occuring.

The high ready isnt bad and typically allows the shooter to keep the front sight of the pistol in his line of sight. However, when he speak of high ready, we see people tend to default to the Sabrina, Norte, Charlie's Angels method where the gun is pointed directly up in the air. This is a no-go. High ready should have the pistol oriented upward at approximately a 45 degree angle. LIke the compressed ready, it should be pulled back in the sternum in order to prevent someone from coming underneath the gun in a gun takeaway scenerio.

[matthew temkin]

I was taught to use Sul with a full combat grip on the weapon.
Only the trigger finger is extended along the frame.
If not SUL then I would go with your version of low ready, which some call Contact Ready.
I have seen the same problems that you describe with both high and compressed ready.
To be honest, I wonder if there is an ideal ready position.
In NYC having a drawn gun behind your thigh is used quite often, especially on car stops.

[jgcoastie]

I use low-ready almost exclusively on boardings, all the other ready positions are either uncomfortable for me/offer little retention merit, or cause me to sweep my teammates unnecessarily.

To each his own. Each position offers something over another, likewise there are drawbacks to each and these pros/cons need to be thoroughly understood and practiced by everyone who handles firearms IMO.

[matthew temkin]

In my classes I allow any ready position to be used and I notice that when the stress level increases low ready becomes the norm more often than not.

[Deaf Smith]

Like I said guys, use the SUL.

Just KYFFOTFT and you can snap that gun up just as fast as any other method, yet you can turn 180 degrees or more without sweeping anyone.

Except retention positon, I've pretty much given up all the others in favor of SUL.

It's good as any and better than most.

[Beentown71]

Maybe I missed it... What is SUL?

Beentown

[matthew temkin]

Here is Gabe Suarez showing applications from SUL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ykmchwOgqE&feature=related

[Deaf Smith]

You know, Gabe sure likes to play with SUL.

And now you guys see why I like it. Now I'm more likely to have my off hand slightly wrapped around the knuckles of my shooting hand, but essencialy it's still SUL.

I just gave up waving the gun around and decided this was better for me.

Here is another thing on SUL you can download to your PC.

http://www.tftt.com/images/Articles/Position_SUL_CQB_Pisto_Ready_Position.pdf

I think the inventors of it are Max Joseph & Alan Brosnan.

SUL means 'South' in Portuguese.

[Nnobby45]

Maybe I missed it... What is SUL?


It's Portuguese for South.

Some Police in Sao Paulo were on a raid in the Barrio, and some of the officers forgot their training when they made entry (or were about to enter), and weren't real conscious about where their muzzles were pointed. Their leader yelled SUL!, (point your guns down!), and the pratice known a Sul was incorporated into their training, at least for raids involving multiple officers.

It can be used fast, but it's main asset, IMO, is safety when in a crowd. Don't know that it, otherwise, offers an advantage over traditional methods.

I know Gabe likes to practice on a "round" range, where one can turn around to check his 6' o'clock, engage targets, etc. For that kind of training, Sul is just about mandatory for safety reasons.

That's not a position used in most training where turning around with a gun in your hand and facing away from "down range" wouldn't likely be well received by your instructor.

Does Sul have it's place? Yes--good position if you have to move in a crowd--especially if you've practiced shooting from that position. Does it, otherwise, offer advangages over high or low ready?

Don't know. None come readily to mind.

[Beentown71]

I figured it was another acronym:p

Beentown

[Brian Pfleuger]

High-ready and low-ready are equally acceptable. See? Proof:

http://www.rakontur.com/storage/Miami%20Vice.JPG?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1253131025943


What more needs to be said?

[Hook686]

At my club's range, the ready low position is required. A couple of years ago the city police department practiced a couple of days a month at our range. At one practice session an officer slipped on racking his .40 pistol and a round was discharged over the berms (there are 4, each progressinely higher out to 330 yards). The bullet came down about 1000 yards from the firing line, hit the windshield of a truck of the company that gathers clay in the field beyond the berms and hit the driver in the leg. As I recall the description the skin was not even broken, but a law suit has been filed. Fortunately it was a city police officer inviolved and not a club member. However, the club is still a defendant in the suit.

Ready low seem wise to my way of thinking, just to establish a sound habit.

[Lee Lapin]

Anything BUT high ready (or is that "High Sabrina?" :D) for me. No need to let anyone in under your muzzle in close quarters...

lpl

[vox rationis]

I was taught that SUL is used when one moves around things that you don't want to "flag" or "sweep", it is simply a method of muzzle control when moving around people. You can use it as a "ready" or quasi retention position, but if I was on high alert and needed to be able to engage a threat as quickly as possible from a ready position, I was taught to use the close to chest ready with the pistol pointed out and at a mild upward angle, pointed toward the potential threat, with the pistol high enough so that one can see the front sight in the periphery of one's vision so that when/if you need to extend out into your isosceles you can start picking up the front sight as early as possible in order to push it onto the target (along with the requisite trigger prep as necessary).

[Glenn Dee]

I may catch some flack for this but... "THE READY POSITION IS MOSTLY IN YOUR HEAD" IMO. I believe that most established ready positions are the result of safety and expedience while teaching large groups.