Throw in your $.02 on a first time AR Build

[Bird is the Word]

Instead of purchasing my first AR pre-assembled, I am taking the "semi" build route. This being my first build and not that familiar with this platform, I am looking for any feedback you are willing to offer:

(Item to consider: i am in NY, so I need post-ban stuff)

Lower Receiver: Complete LRB Arms or Spikes Tactical Lower with A2 buttstock (Cost - $249-$299)

Upper Group: BCM Upper - http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M4-16-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-m4-16.htm - Cost $425

BCG: TBD (Any advice here?)

Charge Handle: Spikes or BCM, ~$22

Handguard: Want the standard A4 one ($20)

This still leaves me without a sight/optic. I was thinking of decent scope, but am considering the options for iron sights.

How am I doing so far? Anything that I am totally missing, any advice?

[bcarver]

You are talking about snapping an upper and lower together.

Order a spikes stripped lower 89.95 and a delton kit 465.99.

assemble the lower following Brownell's free online videos.

Upper comes headspaced and tested.

Send me the savings.

I would get a flat top and a carry handle and ytm flip up front sight.
You can add optics later.

[tincanhunter]

Looks good. If you don't mind spending some extra $$, put a free float hand guard on it instead. You'll gain a bit more accuracy as the rifle heats up while shooting, since there will be no tension between the hand guard and barrel from thermal expansion.

Not necessary, but just my $0.02;).

[Bird is the Word]

bcarver, you are right, it isn't a true build (cut me some slack, first time)

I actually am looking on sites and really don't see the benefit of the stripped lower plus LPK.

On LRB or spikes, the stripped lower plus parts kit winds up being $15 less then having them assemble it. In my mind, especially as a first time build, I get the benefit of their warranty on the assembled piece and don't pay a premium on it.

Now granted, I will probably want to learn, sooner then later how to assemble the whole thing down to the LPK, but for now, anything I am missing?

The only reason to get the LPK seperate seems to be if you want to add in an aftermarket trigger group or like the Magpul trigger guard. For this first build, i am cool with the DPMS or other parts kits they are using to complete the lower ends.

Major question... Can any Bolt carrier group (assuming i buy the complete bcg as one piece) go into any upper?

For example, if I did the BCM upper with barrel can I use a RRA or Spikes BCG and charge handle, or are their some differences.

[Alleykat]

Charging handles and BCGs are interchangeable. Spike's stripped lower: $85, RRA LPK from Adco, $65. Stock, $60. $210. You're still only saving about $60. I just enjoy putting them together.:)

[sholling]

Bravo Company makes a great upper but I would go with the mid length upper (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm). I'd also go with their M16 BCG. If you're going to build an AR you may as well build one that's rock solid and that's a BCM.

For a folding rear sight I'd either go with a Troy or BCM (really a Troy), or a Troy with tritium inserts.

Assembling your own lower isn't hard but if you're going to buy a complete lower then I'd consider a BCM (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM) to assure a perfect and finish match. Or you could just buy the complete rifle (http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=16M_RIFLE&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DBCOM). Otherwise I've had good luck with DoubleStar and you can find them fairly cheap.

For a trigger group (assuming you want to upgrade) I'm a fan of the Geissele 2-stage SSA. It has the ruggedness of a non-adjustable trigger but is still a precision trigger with a 4lbish pull. It looks like production is starting to finally catch up with demand.

[Bird is the Word]

sholling,

What is the difference between the the M4 mid length in my first post and the one you suggested?

Also, since I am in NY, can I have that flash suppressor (assuming it isn't welded in place which makes it ok?)

Lastly,

They have thier m16 BCG, but it says "auto". Forgive my naivete, but is that in regards to full auto? Is that ok to use if I can only have a semi-auto?

[GONIF]

THE MID LENTH (GAS SYSTEM)is the way to go . Less recoil for a faster followup shot and less wear on the weapon and bolt .
get the BCM Middy upper with the BCM M16 BCG .the M16 BCG is 100% legal

[Bird is the Word]

I love definitive answers.

The m16 "auto" BCG is ok for NY state right?

So far the upper looks like:

BCM 16" Mid Length
BCM m16 BCG
BCM/spikes normal charge handle


Now I need a rear site, handguard, and optic as I see fit.

[sholling]

What is the difference between the the M4 mid length in my first post and the one you suggested?
The one on your original post was 16" with a carbine length gas system. A mid length gas system will generally be gentler on the action and a tad more reliable. The only downside is 9" handguards are not as common as 7" handguards. To my eye the mid length also looks better.

Also, since I am in NY, can I have that flash suppressor (assuming it isn't welded in place which makes it ok?)
I have no clue about NY laws but the flash suppressor is just screwed on. Generally the reason for permanently attaching a flash suppressor is just to stay with federal law when running a shorter than 16" barrel. You would permanently attach the flash suppressor to extend the length to the 16" federal minimum.

They have thier m16 BCG, but it says "auto". Forgive my naivete, but is that in regards to full auto? Is that ok to use if I can only have a semi-auto?
There is no federal law against using the auto BCG. The law just prevents you for having a full auto trigger group. Two different animals. Many civilian legal factory rifles actually ship with an M16 BCG.

Here is a picture of a mid-length courtesy of G&R Tactical. With a carbine length gas system 2 more inches of barrel would be exposed.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/PDGImages/16Mid_Complete.jpg

As I said before Troy makes a great rear sight and it folds extra low to clear a scope. What kind of optic did you have in mind? How do you plan to use this rifle?

[RT]

Here is another vote for the BCM mid length. I shot mine yesterday. Nice.:)

[Bird is the Word]

Intent of the Rifle would be range use and HD as needed (but probably not the primary HD).

Looking to mount a decent but affordable scope and challenge myself to become a good target shooter.

THanks for the input (and keep it coming). Hopefully I can have my final "build sheet" together soon, make sure it will all work, and go from there.

[sholling]

Keep in mind that while a BCM is what I'd want in my hands if blue helmeted martian zombies where coming down the road, it's not a match grade sniping rifle. You'll probably get 1 MOA accuracy from it. The nice thing is with an AR15 you can build yourself a match grade upper later for target shooting, and a 6.8 SPC upper for hunting, all sharing the same lower.

I have no idea about your budget for a scope. I put a 1-4x20 on one of mine. For the scope mount I'd save up and buy a LaRue Tactical. Expensive but worth it.

Here's my California legal 5.56 build. Conversion to free state configuration takes about 30 seconds.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Tots%201024/BCM-EOTech001a.jpg

My build list:
BCM mid-length upper
BCM BCG
SOG charging handle
Daniel Defense Omega 9" rail
Troy BUIS
EOTech 557

DoubleStar stripped lower
G&R LPK (discontinued as a kit)
Geissele SSA trigger
Magpul MIAD grip
Vltor EMOD stock

[pilpens]

- I am new to ARs.
- I just put together an AR with almost your specs.
BCM midlength SS.
BCM charge handle
BCG bolt group - a shooting buddy said my BCG is for SA - looks heavier than full auto version - supposed to be better for semi only rifle.
Spike's lower.
DD fixed rear sight - aperture and control is good but the hole on the body distracts me sometimes. If I were to do it again - MI or Larue with solid body.

- Mine is primarily a range rifle for casual target shooting/plinking. A few rounds a month.
- upper and lower fit with a paper sheet thin gap. Suppose to be normal and paper thin is on the good side.
- The rifle shoots well with 60 rounds fired of which 20 were break in shots.
shot great with wolf .223 and still working on federal bulk zero. have not shot enough to say group size.
- The front sight is a little tilted to the left which took 4-5 clicks to zero at 50 yards. BCM customer service was very responsive but am not too worried about it anymore since the rifles shoots well and still have a some of clicks to the left.
- Spike's lower + magpul MOE stock was nice but I regret the cool looking enhanced magpul trigger guard. Trigger has some very smooth creep but once shooting, I almost do not notice it. No plans to mod trigger - happy with it so far.
- If I were to do it again, I would go with the midlength standard barrel BCM and base Spike's lower.

- Plan for later is to remove the iron sights and get a low power scope then a foregrip and maybe a Float tube.
- check out PKfirearms for sabre defence uppers. Looks good too but do not know how they compare to BCM.

[Quentin2]

I just finished my first AR build. Bought a S&W M&P stripped lower then added a Del-Ton lpk and telestock which came in at $260.

Then bought an ArmaLite U15A4CB midlength upper for $500 including bcg and charging handle. This upper has a railed gas block which I wanted - so I bought ArmaLite's gas block sight for $50. They have the same upper but with a fixed A2 sight (U15A4A2CB).

Then I bought a used Bushmaster carry handle for $63 locally and a USGI sling for $11 and one USGI magazine for $10. The rifle came in at about $900 and I love it.

As far as the flash hider, don't know if you can have one in NY or not but since this is a true 16" barrel it's threaded on so it's easily removable if you need something else pinned on. The bolt carrier is AR15 not M16 but it does shroud the firing pin unlike some crappier AR15 carriers. The gas key is nicely staked.

Nothing really wrong with this upper and a real bargain since it's complete unlike the BCM. One thing, the rifling twist is 1:9" which I wanted but others who use heavy, long ammo would want 1:7" like the BCM.

Here's a pic of my plain jane with some war buddies.

http://i829.photobucket.com/albums/zz211/Quentin68/M-15Coltright-200.jpg

[Alleykat]

pilpens: BCG bolt group - a shooting buddy said my BCG is for SA - looks heavier than full auto version - supposed to be better for semi only rifle.

Hmmm. I've built several ARs, but only one with the f.a. bolt carrier. Looks to me like the f.a. version is heavier than the semi-auto version.

[Bird is the Word]

My current build sheet looks like:

- LRB Arm's Lower with LPK installed and A2 buttstock - $299 (and no FFL since they are same county as me) - Link Here
(http://lrbarms.com/m15sareceivers.html)
- BCM Mid-Length Upper - $475 - Link Here (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16.htm)

- BCM M16 BCG - $149 - Link Here (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm)

- BCM or Spikes Charge Handle - $21 Link Here (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR15-Charging-Handle-BCM-p/bcm%20charging%20handle%20ar15.htm)

- A2 Style Handguard - $20 Link Here (http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Mid-Length-Handguards-Black-p/handguards%20mid%20length%20black.htm)

- Scope shortly after

The open items here seem to be making the barrel NY compliant. I believe that means pinning the flash suppressor and removing the bayonet lug, if it has one. I believe my local shop can take care of both.

Am missing anything? Its weird the BCG description does not mention the firing pin, but I assume it is complete drop-in.

Total Cost: $965

[Alleykat]

Could be that NY won't permit a flash suppressor, pinned or not. Might have to go with a compensator.

[TriggerJunky]

On scopes... Its really tough to say since you dont have a price range listed. So I will list things that I personally like and their price ranges for you.

TA01NSN Trijicon ACOG- Top notch gear. 4x Magnify, Bullet Drop Cominsator, near bulletproof design. (Designed for Military hard use) $1000 give or take

Leupold gold ring- Various price ranges and magnifications for anything from the occasional hunter to the Recon scout sniper. You can pick up a great VX-1 3-7x-33 for about 200 bucks. Great scope, bought one for my dad. Also, when getting a top notch scope that doesnt have a purpous built mount that comes with it I.E. (ACOG) You NEED top notch scope rings too. Almost more important than the scope.

Aimpoint & magnifier setup- You can get any type of holographic red dot aiming reticle and a magnifier. Get a detachable magnifier or a flip to the side set up from Larue Tactical. This enables you to have medium range capabilities while still maintaining the ability to have max field of view from a dot reticle. I have no personal experience with this setup, but my best friend is a SpecWar armorer. He has seen the best of the best come and go. Has seen things go from brand new from Crane to **** pounded and abused. He has this set up on one of his own rifles just because of what he has seen personally.

Remember, the inherent accuracy of the rifle becomes variable when you add human error. it is best to get top notch aiming equipment and have an "average" weapon, then to have a top notch rifle and **** poor aiming setup. its all about putting rounds on target. Hope I was helpful.

[Bird is the Word]

Re: Scope rings. If i have an A4 style flat-top upper, the rail on the top should accept any scope, correct? Or is there something additional needed?

[RT]

My favorite place to buy optics mounts.

http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Categories.bok?category=Optic+Mounts

[sholling]

Re: Scope rings. If i have an A4 style flat-top upper, the rail on the top should accept any scope, correct? Or is there something additional needed?
The reason that people spend $200 on a LaRue mount is that with the flick of 2 small levers the scope slips off. Return the mount to the same spot on the rail and flip the levers and it's back on securely and still within 1 MOA of zero.

This is my AR15 Performance Mk68 Recon with a Burris XTR 1-4x24 tactical scope in a LaRue Tactical LT-104 quick disconnect mount.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u197/damnfineguy/My%20Tots%201024/MK68_Recon_001a.jpg

Depending on your budget a Burris like mine, or a Trijicon 1-4x24 at the high end, or at the low end a Millet DMR 1-4x24 would make decent choices. Or if you don't need an illuminated reticle a Nikon Monarch African 1-4x20 (http://swfa.com/Nikon-1-4x20-Monarch-African-Riflescope-P42349.aspx) for about $285 would be a good choice. So would a Bushnell 4200 3-9x40 (http://swfa.com/Bushnell-3-9x40-Elite-4200-Rifle-Scope-P6910.aspx).

[Turkeyhead]

I was looking at the BCM uppers myself. I have what may be a stupid question though...does an upper need to be sent to a licensed gun dealer, or can it be shipped straight to my house? I know lowers need to go through a license holder, but I don't remember reading the same about uppers. :confused:

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Ive been piecing this bad boy together for about a year and a half...I hate to try to figure out how much I've spent on it...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/AR-15/e3b25bfb.jpg

[sholling]

does an upper need to be sent to a licensed gun dealer, or can it be shipped straight to my house?
Uppers go straight to your front door.

[mapsjanhere]

I like the idea of multiple calibers from one lower. One questions, does the "snapping together - pulling apart" thing keep the zero on the upper?

[Ridge_Runner_5]

Yes it does. The barrel, receiver and bolt all stay together, so zero is completely unaffected...the parts that seperate are just the stock, trigger and magwell.

[mapsjanhere]

Thanks, that opens a very interesting can of worms. The only question is if I can sell my wife on the .50 upper being "just another accessory".:D

[Turkeyhead]

Thanks, sholling.

[tirod]

I'm building a AR also. Some things I find mentioned or pictured a lot come to mind:

Use a free float handguard, or one with four rails. - I'm going to avoid it as best I can. A free float seems to only offer a 1/2 MOA improvement for a big expense in $$, makes the rifle muzzle heavy with attachments, and those attachments are usually high cost. For the average user, it's non-functional bling. (There, I said it.) I do prefer mid-length, maybe Magpul will have MOE's that long in some far distant future. If not, I'll buy a carbine upper and suffer appropriately.

Tactical carbine stocks - UBR, Vltor, SOPMOD - I'm not convinced an extra $100 + is buying me much utility. I do want to change the length - summer vs. winter clothing is justifiable. Storage compartments for extra weight, or alternate sling mounts, not so much. I was trained to remove the sling for field use, and carry it ready. If I used an Aimpoint, it would have 50,000 hour battery life, and I'll have BUIS anyway. I'll spend the extra $100 on them.

Specialty charging handles - I didn't need a tac latch for 22 years, I don't really need one now. Why? They exist to cycle the bolt in CQB conditions - meaning you have a stoppage under SHTF conditions. I don't live in that neighborhood, and the chance I might have to do it left handed is so close to zero I see no risk. If you're not LEO/SWAT/SF/DELTA/Contract Operator, you might be puffing it up a bit having one.

5.56 - It does ok, and has, whether I like it or not. I would prefer to build an 6.8SPC II. It offers better performance downrange, and does it in the AR platform rather than a heavier, harder recoiling .30. I'm jumping on that bandwagon. I don't shoot that much, ammo costs the same as the Leverevolution, and I don't mind if it never comes to Walmart. I've got the others for that.

Not spending the cash on accessories means having more ammo, traveling further to hunt, taking classes, joining the local range, etc. Lot's don't have to figure the finances, they just swipe a debit card and presto, desire gratified. Some would like to do all that - and if you don't have it screwed on to begin with, the Carbine Class instructor won't publicly prompt you to take it off after it gets you in trouble. (Just ask them - or read their posts. It's a constant source of delight to them.)

I'm just building what I will actually use, and there's the reasons why.

[Alleykat]

tirod:A free float seems to only offer a 1/2 MOA improvement for a big expense in $$, makes the rifle muzzle heavy with attachments, and those attachments are usually high cost.

I prefer free-float tubes, but don't spend a lot of money on them. I get the DPMS vented carbine fft @ around $50; rifle-length @ about $70. If you don't want vented, you can save a few bucks. I don't hang anything off them, so there's no extra "Rambolista" weight involved with my builds.

[Christian James]

Use a free float handguard, or one with four rails. - I'm going to avoid it as best I can. A free float seems to only offer a 1/2 MOA improvement for a big expense in $$, makes the rifle muzzle heavy with attachments, and those attachments are usually high cost. For the average user, it's non-functional bling. (There, I said it.) I do prefer mid-length, maybe Magpul will have MOE's that long in some far distant future. If not, I'll buy a carbine upper and suffer appropriately.


Thanks for bringing that up. I had a conversation with my cousin's husband this past weekend regarding ARs. He wanted to know how much I paid for my BCM upper. When I told him he didn't understand as it didn't have a quad rail. He asked me why I would spend that much on a upper with basic handguards when for the same price I could get a Model 1 with the quad rail. I tried to explain, but he still didn't understand. I guess some people just want the bling. I'd rather have a solid rifle first, and get bling later if I actually need it.

[tirod]

Low dollar free float tubes are few and far between - thanks for the link. One issue I have with them is that they are predominantly round aluminum extrusions. It's not the optimal handguard shape I've used over my lifetime. They are hard to index, allowing too much cant without realizing it. With a flatter bottom handguard, you get a more ergonomic grip, hold more level, and reduce the overall bulk. It's like round handles on knives - not the way to go. Stoner's original design used a triangular shape, I now understand I may have not liked the looks, but it actually worked better for me than the newer CAR style.

Aluminum has it's problems, it's noisy in the field, and conducts heat both ways too much. It also limits the makers design intent. Machining four Pictatinny rails into it creates more weight, ruins the grip, is rough on the hands, which invites rail covers to smooth it back down, making an even fatter profile. Then a vertical grip is added to restore control, and the muzzle starts getting heavier and less quick.

For all that, can most of us actually shoot the difference in improvement? Secondly, is it needed for real world use? I have no problem with precision shooters adopting one, the sport invented them. Praire dogs, go for it. For field use on game over 50 pounds, not so much. A decently constructed AR is more than accurate enough for shooting things within it's designed range. It's the extreme applications that any firearm will come up short.

Marketer's sell extreme applications - the public has to sort it out.

[Warchild]

Didn't read the whole thread but as for the BCG being TBD, my money would most certainly go to BCM. As for an M16 BCG or a standard, the M16 is a little heavier and is a little meatier, as for the standard operators use of semi fire range use, I doubt you'd notice a difference at all. Also, if this is primarily for range use, may consider in the future an RRA 2 stage trigger, outstanding upgrade.

[Alleykat]

Just my subjective opinion, but I prefer round hand guards. Don't have any "field noise" problems, heat problems, or "indexing" problems with them...but that's just my observation. :)

A rifle with a $70 DPMS handguard will be just as accurate as will the same rifle with a $400 Rambolista handguard. :cool:

[22_Shooter]

Could be that NY won't permit a flash suppressor, pinned or not. Might have to go with a compensator.

This is correct.

In NY (unless you have a pre-ban lower):

No bayo lug
No telescoping/folding stock
No accessible threads
No flash hider (permanently attached brakes/comps are OK)


So for that BCM upper, you'd have to get the bayo-lug ground off and have the flash hider replaced with a brake/comp and have it permanently attached.

I live in NY too and have multiple BCM uppers, and had to have them neutered to comply with NY's ridiculous laws.

I recommend Adco to do the work. They have an outstanding reputation and do great work.

Their site: http://www.adcofirearms.com/

Their subforum on Arfcom: http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=2&f=130


(And yes, M16 BCG's are fine in NY. I run BCM BCG's in all of mine:D)

[blhseawa]

Head spacing is not something I would advise a first time builder to do on his/her own. The cost of the gauges can run as much as the BCG, and if something isn't right, fixing it is non-trivial, IMHO.

While I'm aware people have bought/built uppers and thrown in any old BCGs and expect it to work, no armorer worth his/her salt would let it go without head spacing and verifying that the head space is correct. There are three pieces that effect head space, the barrel, barrel extension and bolt. Depending upon the machining, and who installs the barrel extension, and who's bolt is used it may or may not head space correctly. IMHO even in a full build, best to get barrel, barrel extension and bolt that have been head spaced thus mated together, unless you have the tools and knowledge to do your self, this is a case of where knowledge and tools make a difference, IMHO.

Unless you are going to build the BCG your self I would consider the BCM Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Auto, unfortunately, I live in Washington state and I wouldn't get caught with a M16 Bolt Carrier in any of my ARs. Way too much legal risk in this state! In my last build, I bought a BCM CMT Bolt Carrier Group (MPI) - Semi, for a DPMS Panther Bull 24 A4 upper build, anyway, the BCG was not properly staked, so I ended up using two new bolt carrier key screws, used locktite blue, torqued to ArmaLite Note torque specs and then properly staked the screws. I'm happy with the result, as I wanted a semi BCG and a MPI'ed bolt. However, the bolt required some lapping in order to obtain proper head space. I'm engineer, machinist and gunsmith, so this was not unexpected.

I want you to have the best build possible and thus offer this for your consideration, others may disagree, and my advice is offered for free so some will say that is what it is worth. In any case, I wish you the best on your project and welcome to the world of ARs.

YMMV