Glock schlock

[gyvel]

I am going to put on my vest and Kevlar helmet, because I am sure that I am about to endure a lot of pot shots. LOL

Has it ever occurred to anyone that there is absolutely nothing new and/or novel about the Glock pistol other than its pioneer use of polymer for construction of the frame?

The "BIG" innovation, the semi-double action only feature, is virtually a direct copy from the old Austro-Hungarian Model 1907 Roth Steyr 8mm pistol; It functions in an identical manner.

Camming barrel? John M. Browning.

Recoiling slide? John M. Browning.

Hi cap staggered column magazine? Savage Model 1907 pistol.

OK guys, start tearing me apart.

[bakon]

Yeah, but you forgot about COOL. They were the first Cool gun. Others were big, or manly, or tough, or (add your own reason for what you got here). But they were they first Cool pistol. Not stuck up, arrogant, British spy 007, 1970's disco hip. Real 1990's to present day original COOL.

But seriously for police work; They were the first package to put reliable trigger pull, double stack hi capacity mags, night sights, esay to use. Right weight and size. So we got rid of the S&W wheel guns (357's with 38+p) and got 14 in the gun, 26 on the belt, night sights, in a smaller package (G23's).

In the early 90's the only other choices had bad trigger pulls (S&W), barrels which could be removed with a single hand by the bad guy (Beretta) or very expensive Sigs, which were jerky trigger pulls at the time too. So Glock won many police departments over. The 1911's with "cocked and lockedsingle actions were never considered for most patrol. Needed to be a "double action only" for most change over departments and DA/SA was everything else.

So COOL wins again!

[Walt Sherrill]

The relatively small number of parts in a Glock is probably one of the things that contributes to their reliability. And more tolerant chamber sizes. There are fewer things to cause problems.

Some highly regarded custom pistols don't really offer much in the way of innovation, either, but you can't say their lack of innovation means they aren't worth a crap. Refinement and improved function are innovations, in their own right.

I like Glocks. But I like other guns, too.

[Kreyzhorse]

They were the first package to put reliable trigger pull, double stack hi capacity mags, night sights, esay to use. Right weight and size.

And to add to the above, they did it at the right time. The combo they assembled means a lot to quite a bit of people and while they may not have invented the gun, they raised the bar at the time.

[jmr40]

All true, but the same could be said about any gun developed in the last 100 years. They are all simply refinements of older designs. Not much really new since smokeless powder.

[BusGunner007]

Did someone already mention that it was the first invisible gun...? :eek:

[Dobe]

That was HK.

[skydiver3346]

The only thing that has ever occured to me about Glock pistols is that they work!
Very dependable, accurate and easy to take down and clean. What else is there anyway?? ;)

[TinyDee]

I have never, ever, been a fan of Glock, but so many police departments now have them, the trigger pull is sweet and they are reliable. So, even though one will not be in my case, I have to give approving nods to the maker...

[Boats]

I always give Glock his due as packing together a set of ideas in a revolutionary package and then selling them like an ardent capitalist.

If Glock hadn't made his pistol, chances are good that I wouldn't be enjoying the Beretta PX4 and the S&W M&P, which I think are both improvements over Gaston's misshapen polyguns.

I actually think the most radical feature Glock "engineered" into their pistols was the combination of polymer and tennifer, giving the Glock the competitive market advantage of being the first handgun the end user could totally mistreat and still have a reasonable chance of it firing.

For cops who'd let their revolvers rust shut, it was a revelation, and it appeals to this day to noobs, and the lazy, who cannot or will not take proper care of their critical gear.

[LightningJoe]

Yeah, but can you walk right through an airport metal detector with any of those old-timey guns?

[mathman]

The only thing that has ever occured to me about Glock pistols is that they work!
Very dependable, accurate and easy to take down and clean. What else is there anyway??

Exactly. When you can find a production 1911 for $500 that is as reliable as a Glock, please let me know.

If a gun doesn't fire when the trigger is pulled, then I don't really care how good it feels in my hand or how pretty it is to look at. That's why I like Glocks...and I like other guns too. But when my life is on the line, I grab one of two guns: my Glock or my revolver. (if a shotgun is not available)

Absolute dependability is a nice feature in its own right.

[CUBAN REDNECK]

http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeevK4W4v5c:)

[therealtwitch]

yea well henry ford didn't invent the automobile either. what glock and ford both did is take existing ideas streamline them and make them reliable and affordable. hence making them cool. and like it or not your drawn to the cool factor

[gyvel]

Love all the responses, guys. Just like to get the blood flowing.

One comment to LightningJoe: A Glock isn't going to make it through an airport metal detector, no way, no how. The slide, barrel, cartridges and guts are all metal, remember? LOL

[bakon]

For cops who'd let their revolvers rust shut, it was a revelation, and it appeals to this day to noobs, and the lazy, who cannot or will not take proper care of their critical gear.

Boy that stings.
We just bang the Glocks on the ground when they rust and it falls off looking new again.

[Silvanus]

All true, but the same could be said about any gun developed in the last 100 years. They are all simply refinements of older designs. Not much really new since smokeless powder.

That's exactly what I was going to say. Why did you pick the Glock in particular? Because it's so popular?

[w_houle]

How many pistols can actually claim to be a new design or some kind of innovative feature? What's left to do that hasn't already been done?

[comn-cents]

They weren’t really the first Poly gun either. HK did that.
I've never been a fan, they work, so do many other brands. I think the biggest thing was that they were pretty cheap (inexpensive) when they first came, out especially to LEO's.

[ranburr]

Has there truly been anything revolutionary in the pistol world in the las 40yrs? Most of the current designs can have their roots traced back close to a 100yrs. Polymer was first done by H&K in the 1960s. I really don't see much happeneing with pistols in the forseeable future. I actually think the "next big leap" will probably be in ammunition. I would think that with the current shortages, someone is looking long and hard at a commercially viable, caseless projectile.

[Claude Clay]

friends don't let friends buy glocks

the grip angle is......well, its just unAmerican
its built all boxy--like a brick outhouse
takes f o r e v e r to load the magazine
and if you do it more than twice you have to ice your thumb
IDPA Vickers count--you made 17 holes--YOU tape them!!

upside is--if you ever need it, and use it, and the police take it from you
as evidence, and it remains dirty, bloody and uncleaned for 3 years--
it wont matter.:D

[SigP6Carry]

My understanding of what the Glock did was not revolutionize one single aspect of handguns, but rather take several revelutionary ideas and encase them in a new type of super-reliable handgun. This design then went on to inspire several other companies to try to emulate it and drove handgun innovation in the latter part of the 20th century into a fury. It was one of the first true "21st century" handguns made.

As for gripes about the grip angle, looks and feel: all personal preference. I actually LOVE Glocks myself, but will probably never own one. I just prefer guns that are a bit more conservative looking.

[PhoenixConflagration]

There was nothing new about bread, ham, cheese, mayo, or mustard, but it took the old Earl to make the sandwich.

[rsxr22]

cost efficient, reliable, and accurate enough. Not much more one could ask for in a defensive handgun.

There plastic, ugly, boxy, and have a bad grip angle are all major complaints. Well i have a multitude of different style handguns and about 90% cost more than a glock, but i would still take my G22 over any of my other handguns in a combat situation

[ceadermtnboy]

Glocks are ugly and square, but if TSHTF it would be my go to gun!

[hickok45]

Nothing new maybe, except they just work better than most others.

[Lashlarue]

The smartest thing they did was sell at a loss to damn near every law enforcement agency in the world.About 70% of us find the ergomomics to be lacking, for me no Glock is a natural pointer. When Glocks were selling for $300 LEA's were getting them for $200. Sig who actually makes a better pistol than Glock used the same method to get their pistols accepted.Berretta just engineered a better pistol and won the US Military contract.

[raftman]

Yeah, but you forgot about COOL. They were the first Cool gun.

There's a lot of good that can be said about Glocks, but they're definitely not cool. It can't truly be cool if everyone and their mother has one.

[varoadking]

It can't truly be cool if everyone and their mother has one.

ipod's are cool...

[Homerboy]

In the early 90's the only other choices had bad trigger pulls (S&W), barrels which could be removed with a single hand by the bad guy (Beretta) or very expensive Sigs, which were jerky trigger pulls at the time too. So Glock won many police departments over. The 1911's with "cocked and lockedsingle actions were never considered for most patrol. Needed to be a "double action only" for most change over departments and DA/SA was everything else.

BS internet rumor! Do a search for that Beretta 92 side snatch. The take down lever was already down (and way bigger for Jet Li to get his hand on it to really yank the slide off), and it was already a bit off the frame when he grabbed it. I have not heard of ONE successful slide snatch.

Cops went to Glocks because Glock gave the guns away to them for the free advertising. My old PD sold their S&W 5946's to Glock and got a brand new Glock 17 and THREE mags each for $75 a pop. They're also better for the smaller statured or female recruits being hired as cops today. God forbid they have an extra 12 ounces on their gun belts.

[44 AMP]

But more to do with marketing.
was the combination of polymer and tennifer, giving the Glock the competitive market advantage

Don't overlook the fact that GLock was underpricing their competition, and offering a cash value for the guns being traded in. In many cases, their pistols cost police depts $100 less than anybody else's. Ergonomics be damned, look how much we can save!

Course, Glock made their money back on the extras. Armorer training, holsters, spare parts, magazines, tools, and all the other little things you need, were money makers in their own right.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a pistol with a plastic frame (that requires virtually no finish work) sells for the same as one with a steel frame (that requires machining). Maybe the police depts got a price break, but the civilian market never did.

[cougar gt-e]

Glock became popular not because it was innovative and ground breaking, but because it was (and is) a balanced package. There are many others out there now that are also good balanced packages, but Glock pulled it off first and retains market share because of it. NOT because they are the best in all categories, but because they are dern good in most if not all.

(They are still ugly, but you can't have everything...)

Just my opinion

[LightningJoe]

One comment to LightningJoe: A Glock isn't going to make it through an airport metal detector, no way, no how. The slide, barrel, cartridges and guts are all metal, remember? LOL


Crank up the sarcasm detector a notch.

[Poseidon28]

Glocks are what they started out to be: a less then 200 dollar gun for LEO's, and, by winning that market, he managed to sell to the rest of the public.

His gift was not really the design, though it is very simple, but the timing, and, making the gun cheap enough, or giving it away to begin with, to buy market share. What did they cost LEO's at the start? 140 or something? Yet, they gave them high capacity, and, they went bang when you pulled the trigger, and, functioned pretty much the same as a DA revolver, but, with a FAR better trigger then most.

He also realized the upcoming articles, like this one:
http://www.fbi.gov/publications/leb/2004/oct2004/oct04leb.htm#page_15

that would make large magazine capacity critical. He also recognized and solved the biggest problem for most departments: back injury caused by carrying a heavy gun, and belt, for long hours. Glocks are about as light as you can get, and still have the gun work all the time.

Overall, the guy was a combination of gifted marketing guy, great manufacturing methods, and, identifying the perfect time to do it, when departments started wanting to go with JHP ammo.

[Alleykat]

So, what's the point of this thread?

[raftman]

ipod's are cool...

They used to be. Now it's iphones.

[IanS]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that there is absolutely nothing new and/or novel about the Glock pistol other than its pioneer use of polymer for construction of the frame?

The "BIG" innovation, the semi-double action only feature, is virtually a direct copy from the old Austro-Hungarian Model 1907 Roth Steyr 8mm pistol; It functions in an identical manner.

Camming barrel? John M. Browning.

Recoiling slide? John M. Browning.

Hi cap staggered column magazine? Savage Model 1907 pistol.

OK guys, start tearing me apart.

The problem is the premise of your argument. I don't think anyone is claiming the Glock to be all that "pioneering", as in bringing a new invention or concept. Most people are quick to point out it was H&K (VP70) that first used polymer for a handgun frame as well.

So what's the big deal about Glocks? They've become hugely popular. Quite possibly the most popular "modern" pistol in recent memory.

Whether because they deserved it or because of sheer dumb luck depends on who you ask and how they want to spin the facts. And once again we have the same thread and the same arguments all over again.

But more to do with marketing.



Don't overlook the fact that GLock was underpricing their competition, and offering a cash value for the guns being traded in. In many cases, their pistols cost police depts $100 less than anybody else's. Ergonomics be damned, look how much we can save!

Course, Glock made their money back on the extras. Armorer training, holsters, spare parts, magazines, tools, and all the other little things you need, were money makers in their own right.

And I'm still waiting for someone to explain how a pistol with a plastic frame (that requires virtually no finish work) sells for the same as one with a steel frame (that requires machining). Maybe the police depts got a price break, but the civilian market never did.


Good marketing goes only so far. It gets customers "foot in the door" but you can't sustain a business on clever marketing tactics alone. The product itself has to prove itself and word of mouth also follows. S&W is using similar tactics selling the M&P to law enforcement. But the M&P too can't survive on clever marketing alone.

As far as plastic guns selling about the same price as steel. Yeah, I wish they truly were cheaper but guns aren't like jewelry. Most people don't buy them based on what materials they're made of but what they do. Even Swiss watches. You've got $5000 Breitlings or Bell & Ross watches with rubber straps instead of steel.

[MLeake]

... it's not exactly BS. Anybody who's owned a Beretta 92 knows you can take the slide off using one hand; I've done it myself, back when I owned one, after watching that Lethal Weapon movie and thinking, "no way."

Now, whether I could do it before the person holding it could pull the trigger is an entirely different question. I wouldn't count on a successful outcome - it would probably be a better bet, if that close to the other person, to push the slide out of battery and try to lock it back just enough to keep it out of battery, while drawing one's own weapon.

Would it be at least remotely possible to release the slide from the frame while somebody who held it wasn't paying attention? Yes. But the odds are probably not good.

[bigghoss]

is there a gun on the market today that IS original? I don't care if it's innovative or not. it fits my hand, it's reliable, accurate, simple, durable, and not pro. it's the closest thing to the perfect gun FOR ME that I've found yet.

[Boats]

The 1911 was pretty original.:D

[mathman]

Sig who actually makes a better pistol than Glock used the same method to get their pistols accepted

Sorry, but I gotta call BS on that one...that's just an opinion. What makes them better??

Sigs are not any more reliable...they are not more durable...the finish on a Glock is better...I can keep going on and on.

Are they more comfortable in the hand? Well, I think so...but that is just an opinion. Not to hijack the thread, but to just state that Sigs are better than Glocks is just plain BS.

[PBjafa]

"I have never, ever, been a fan of Glock, but so many police departments now have them, the trigger pull is sweet and they are reliable. So, even though one will not be in my case, I have to give approving nods to the maker..."

I'm sorry...... WHAT???
"the trigger pull is sweet" ...???
Are we talking about the same gun?
Glock - right?

[bakon]

Do a search for that Beretta 92 side snatch. The take down lever was already down (and way bigger for Jet Li to get his hand on it to really yank the slide off), and it was already a bit off the frame when he grabbed it. I have not heard of ONE successful slide snatch.

Seen it done several times, by people trained in just a few minutes. Seen it live and on tape. Was practiced by many LA gangs and caught on tape.I never saw the movie referred to, but have been to Street Survival by Caliber Press.

When we transitioned in the early 90's, this was the point that killed the Beretta, we could all do it with minimal training. Heard they changed the design. I loved the gun otherwise. It had a long smooth trigger and I thought as far as shooting, it was the Cadillac.

[Glockeroo]

Ahh, another thread worshiping my favorite pistols. Glocks are the best! Even the haters are coming to their senses now. The tupperware and grip angle complaints are even starting to become rare.

[comn-cents]

how can an opinion be BS?:rolleyes:

[mathman]

What's BS is stating that they are better...instead of saying "I like like them better." It is not a known fact which handgun is 'better'...if it was, then we wouldn't need forums like this one, would we?

I understand that you have people who hate Glocks and people who worship them...I belong to neither camp...I like them because they work. But the quality of Sigs has come into question over the past several years...not too much debate on that one.

[comn-cents]

sorry mathman you were the one who said it was his opinion & BS.:eek:

[mathman]

Yea, you're right :D. But it's still BS :p

[longeyes]

So, what's the point of this thread?

+1

No one said Glocks were the ne plus ultra of handguns, perfect, the only choice. But they are superb portable tools for close-quarters self-defense (and, yes, you can adjust to the grip angle).

[Homerboy]

Seen it done several times, by people trained in just a few minutes. Seen it live and on tape. Was practiced by many LA gangs and caught on tape.I never saw the movie referred to, but have been to Street Survival by Caliber Press.

When we transitioned in the early 90's, this was the point that killed the Beretta, we could all do it with minimal training. Heard they changed the design. I loved the gun otherwise. It had a long smooth trigger and I thought as far as shooting, it was the Cadillac.

How many of those videos were of actual confrontations and not some guy practicing with their homeboy's? I would like to see the person who successfully removes the slide of a loaded Beretta 92 that is pointing at them without getting shot. Doing it with a fellow recruit with an deactivated Beretta 92 is NOT the same thing.

I DO agree, they are Cadilac's. I have three of them, an INOX, a standard blue, and a mint Centurion. Never sell any of them.

[gc70]

Glocks represent a superb package of non-revolutionary components combined with marketing genius.

barrels which could be removed with a single hand by the bad guy (Beretta)

credibility = 0

[44 AMP]

No one said Glocks were the ne plus ultra of handguns, perfect, the only choice

GLock does. Or they cetainly imply it as strongly as they can.

[IanS]

GLock does. Or they cetainly imply it as strongly as they can.

Yes, its just marketing. Why does it bother some people so much? You gotta be a serious boob to think any gun can be "perfect" and will never break and never jam. The problem is the people who believe such things. HK has been touting their guns as the most "tactical". SIG P226 as the best choice of Navy SEALs. "If its not a Colt its a copy". Kahr says "Why buy a Block?". If you shoot a Walther PPS you'll be like a MI6 agent. Companies do and say what they have to do to sell guns. Don't blame them just because a few people actually buy into their marketing propaganda.

[gyvel]

The Glock is the "Obama" of the handgun world:p

[mathman]

The Glock is the "Obama" of the handgun world

You'd have to not like guns to make a statement like that.

[bakon]

gc70 wrotecredibility = 0

What do you mean? Because you didn't see it? Or you just dont believe it?

[SigP6Carry]

The Glock is the "Obama" of the handgun world
Wait... I'm confused. Are you trying to go down the path of "Obama rocks because of how revelutionary he is, just like glocks?" or are you trying to say "Glocks are turning this nation into a socialist state" like so many others seem to believe? Cause... I'm not sure what your intended rhetoric is, nor where you're coming from and it causes me to question your intelligence. I'm not trying to be rude, but just enlighten you about the effects of such speak.

The fact of the matter is this: Glock builds a good, reliable gun that I would be proud to own. You can't refute their reliability, accuracy, innovation and ability to cram a lot into a small package. The grip angle and looks may be a bit awkward for some, but I personally would rather have something reliable that I got used to and don't like the looks of instead of something that I like the looks of that isn't.

Plus, they did some great marketing. US Marshals anyone?

[RNB65]

When something goes bump in the night, I reach for a G17. I've fired thousands of rounds thru that gun and I'm still waiting on the first failure. I trust all my handguns to work when needed, but the G17 is at the top of the list.

[Gutpile Charlie]

I think the Glock is a miracle of innovation. Simple, goes bang every time, blah, blah, blah.....but....!

I have said more than once, and I'll say it again...a Glock is an AD getting ready to happen.

Now I know that a gun will not intentional shoot unless you pull the trigger...but the Glock just makes it too easy.

My son as a G22 in .40 S&W. I love taking it to the range and shooting...but I would never use it as a carry piece. It is just too easy to "accidently" get it to fire.

My biggest problem is not the striker design, but that little "thingy" on the trigger. That just does it for me!:(

[pmrtruck]

""The Glock is the "Obama" of the handgun world""

Gluck You for saying the Glock is a Socialist machine.

O.K. I'll say my penance now...

:D

[Trigger Finger]

The reason I prefer Glock is that they are so darn reliable!
Homeboy L.A.P.D. does nothing as far as officer safety like selecting a duty firearm. They absolutely do not choose a gun for free advertising, regardless of the price!

And the fact they have gone 15,000 rounds without cleaning is a big plus.

http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90

[pmrtruck]

As Always...You Own This, I Own That...I guess I really suck at social skills.

Does yours do any different than mine?

Cool. I am sure there is some tranquilizer that will take care of that.

I have no friends...:mad:
Where did the face go...I really want to show feelings...
???

[JohnKSa]

Sorry I couldn't come up with a witty closing remark. The last page or so of this thread sucked all the wittiness out of the room where I'm sitting...