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Jezz
August 15, 2009, 11:35 PM
I live in Australia and recently turned 18, i have been shooting pistols at my local gun club for the past year and really enjoy it. I have been using club guns and borrowing other members pistols while getting in to shooting. my parents are of the belief that guns are only made to kill people and dislike the fact that i like shooting. :)

i am finshing high school and completing my licence H calss licence (eg pistols) and want to buy a .22 pistol so i can practice when i want and not have to always borrow someone elses gun (its been a year and its almost embarresing to keep asking to borrow a gun).

My parents wont allow guns in the house, but i have had offers for storage at fellow shooters houses, for sum reason this isnt a solution.:mad:

Has anyone had a similar situation?, my parents there one mindedness on guns is getting old. any suggestions?:confused:

rsxr22
August 16, 2009, 12:02 AM
my best suggestion would be to try and get them involved. I am 22 and was lucky enough to have been brought up shooting with my dad and grandfather. My mother doesnt really like guns, but she doesnt hate them. Alot of people are afraid about things they dont know. I've taken many people shooting who didnt necessarily like guns before hand and as soon as they pulled the trigger a few times they were in love.

Guns were made to protect not kill. Yes ultimately most of the time shootings end up with someone dying, but it was a inevitable design with changing technology.

Gun's can take a life, but they can also save a life!

My best advice would be to try to do what i posted above, and if that doesnt work just do your own thing. My buddy has parents like yours and he has tried to get them involved and they dont want anything to do with it. So he just shoots without them. But see if your father would be willing to take say a gun safety class with you and try shooting some competitions and he, maybe not so much your mom, will find it interesting and fun

Goodluck

IdahoG36
August 16, 2009, 12:02 AM
Move!!:D

JohnKSa
August 16, 2009, 12:02 AM
I had the same problem--maybe a bit worse since I wouldn't have been allowed to join a gun club.

When I got my own place I purchased guns . Until then I lived by the rules of the people who were providing me with rent-free living quarters. ;)

Jezz
August 16, 2009, 12:16 AM
i should of mentioned Both Mum and dad have used guns while living on farms to deal with foxs etc.....and are fimilar with them but still belive they only have one purpose. they dont seem to understand that i am very happy to just punch holes in paper and bottles. i have offered to take them and introduce them to target shooting but no success:confused:,

Doogle
August 16, 2009, 02:05 AM
...unless it is causing too much friction with your parents. From what you have said it sounds like your parent's don't agree with shooting but that you are being allowed to continue.

If your parents won't allow storage of weapons in their house you will need to find alternate storage. Note that storing weapons at a friend's place may not be legally practical. Although Australia's gun laws are probably still not completely uniform the laws for storage are probably similar in all states. All guns must be stored in accordance with the Police issued directives. Basically this means an approved gun safe affixed in an approved manner, (you'll come across that word "approved" a heck of a lot in dealing with handguns in Australia :-). I'm pretty sure that you can only legally store the weapons on your premises that your are specifically licensed for. That is, a friend who is not licensed for your handgun could not legally keep it in his safe unless he had also applied and been approved to have that weapon on his license. Check out this point for your state.

Some ranges will supply storage, for a price of course, but from what I gather from my range it's not a high price. The downside is that you would need to do your cleaning at the range as you would not be legal transporting the weapon to and from your home if you don't have secure approved storage there, (and the Police WILL want to inspect any storage, possibly multiple times if you obtain more weapons).

It could be useful if you explain to your parents that handguns in Australia are not used for self defense, but only for approved sporting activities. That's the fact of the matter, and the many hoops you have to jump through to get a Category H license, and then have to keep jumping though to maintain it, don't sit well with anyone not dedicated to following the rules and using the weapons responsibly. The very way the weapons must legally be stored, in a locked safe, with any ammunition in it's own locked container (can be in the same safe, but using a separately locked compartment) mitigates against them being used quickly. We simply do not have an ethic of using guns for self defense and those that do, even if proven to have justification, very likely run the risk of never holding a license again.

I agree with getting a .22 first, (I think you're limited to that or an air pistol first now anyway). Even if that wasn't the rule it makes sense to get a .22 as you can practice inexpensively. My first handgun was a Beretta Model 87T .22 and it gets a lot more rounds through it than my centerfires.

Jezz
August 16, 2009, 02:23 AM
thanks Doogle:)

my club doesnt offer storage:(, but a guy i shoot with said that it is legal to store a firearm at another house given that the owner has the appropriate licence, in this case a H. i could legalyl have the gun registered in my name but kept elsewhere and i could legally transport my gun but wouldnt be albe to take it home.

i have narrowed my .22 down to the Browning Buckmart Contour and the Beretta 87T:). quite like the browning hope to get one or the other parents permiting:cool:

Doogle
August 16, 2009, 02:41 AM
...just to make sure that method of storage will be legal. You will be signing a statement to the effect that you have legal storage and as I said the Police will likely want to inspect it.

Yes, I also considered the Buckmark. I really had no reason not to choose one as they have a good reputation and were around the same price, (I had a 3 models to choose from). At the time the Beretta was fairly new here and I was wary of going for such a new, untried, model of pistol. However, I liked it and I've been very happy with it over the past years. I expect I'd probably have been very happy with a Buckmark too.

CzCasull
August 16, 2009, 04:10 AM
Hey, mate, perhaps you can purchase a small storage space such as a safe. You can show your parents that it's a great sport and that your firearm will be kept in a safe at all times unless needed.

Jezz
August 16, 2009, 04:57 AM
I have been impressed with the Buckmarks i have shot, unfortunatly for me i dont know anyone with a Beretta 87T, or anyone or anywhere that rents them 2 try it:( owell

shamus005
August 16, 2009, 07:12 AM
You can agree to disagree with them, and carry on the relationship you've always had with your parents. Really. Stop trying to convince them. Be civil, agree to disagree with them, and don't let this issue affect your relationship with your parents. That strategy itself will probably work better than anything.

As long as you live under their roof, you have to follow their rules. When you move out, you can have firearms in your own home.

Tom2
August 16, 2009, 07:38 AM
My parents were familiar with some sorts of guns (farm types) but not actively involved with them in any fashion. When I left home I was free to pursue whatever shooting sports or disciplines that I liked, they were not necessarily informed that I had a .22 rifle in my possession. When the apron strings are cut, you may pursue whatever sporting activity that you like, I suppose. Stick to rimfire shooting if you like, and want to save money on ammo, you may fire larger stuff just for the experience, but they do not make a difference to mere paper. With the large varieties of rimfires and different uses and competition and sports, you could adhere to that caliber forever unless you are going to pursue something that makes it mandatory to upgrade, such as larger game hunting. Even if you do decide to pursue a military career or hunting with larger guns, the marksmanship principles carry over and you will achieve a good foundation with the rimfire guns at substantially lower expense than centerfires. You may also aquire medals and trophies if you decide to become competitive.

IamHenryBowman
August 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
Sorry to hear about your problem. My only peice of advice is to get them to come to the range and squeeze off a few with you. Show them how to properly and SAFELY handle a gun. Get them to talk to some of the members at the club about why it is important to own a handgun. I have seen so many people come into my Brother in Laws range (mainly women with there husbands) reluctant to even hold a weapon and by the time they are leaving they are the proud new owners of their very own handgun. Its all about educating them and making them feel comfortable around them. Good luck.

Pahoo
August 16, 2009, 11:43 AM
Two weeks ago, a couple of kids showed some interest in shooting my M/L.
I asked their guardians if it was okay for me to allow them to shoot. The lady said sure and after her kids had shot, I offered it to her. The man with her just stood off and showed absolutely no interst. Was truly surprised by her reply;
"No thanks, I hate guns and feel they are designed to kill people"
I then asked her if she had come up with that idea, heard it somewhere or read it. She said that she had heard it on TV. and why did I ask. I replied that it was because she appeared to be a logical thinking person and no logical person would or could come up with an idea on their own. I told her that kind logic was like going from point A to F by bypassing BCD&E. The man just kind of rolled his eyes and walked closer to us. I did not know where he might be coming from but I then proceeded to ask her if she or her husband had guns at home and if they ever killed anyone. She said; "Oh, course not". I then commented that they were not using the firearm as designed and how did that fit with her philosophy. At this point, noticed that the guy was smiling but ever so slightly. I finished that part of the conversation by informing her that I was a Hunter Safety Instructor and that we teach logic, ethics and responsibily. She asked when our next class was scheduled as her kids were ready. ;)


Be Safe !!!

dajowi
August 16, 2009, 12:09 PM
I think you need to convince your parents that a means of self protection within your home is prudent. You can start by locating newspaper articles relating to local burglaries, breaking and enterings, home invasions, etc. etc. which would establish a need for a handgun. Don't try and sell the idea to your parents. Make sure the news articles are left in areas were they can find them. You want them to come to their own conclusion that having a pistol in the home might not be a bad idea after all.

drail
August 16, 2009, 03:07 PM
Ask them if it's possible that sometimes certain people REALLY NEED to be killed. Saying guns are for killing people is like saying the U S Marines are only good for killing people. DUHHH!

shamus005
August 16, 2009, 03:47 PM
I don't think you need to convince your parents of anything.

It is a better display of maturity to "agree to disagree", not let this issue hurt your relationship with your parents, and accept the rules they have for living under their roof.

Or you can take the other route: cajole and argue with those who have all the power in this situation. what good does that do? And how does that make YOU look?

Take the high road.

Hog Hunter
August 16, 2009, 04:49 PM
Guns dont shoot themselves, people kill people. i always belived that guns saved lives when put in the wright hands, and accidents do happen, but all accidents are preventable taken the wright precautions.

I grew up around guns so i myself didnt have that problem. I would reccomend to try and persuade them. Maybe go and take a few safty classes and get your CC permit if you can. Dont know the regulations for there.

Dont just show them but prove to them that you can and will be a responsible gun owner.

JeffSSig
August 16, 2009, 05:13 PM
You say you just turned 18.
I am sure in a short while you will be leaving home and out on your own.
Do not go against your parents.
Wait until your out on your own and then get all the guns you want.
You are young and have many many years to enjoy guns and shooting.

You will own many guns but you only have one set of parents!

Learn a bit of patience and enjoy both while and when you can. :D

christcorp
August 16, 2009, 05:19 PM
The only logic you need to realize; and then you can convey the information any way you want; is 1) Since the beginning of time, and the invention of gun powder, NOT 1 gun EVER KILLED A PERSON. And since the beginning of time, and the invention of gun powder, NOT 1 gun EVER SAVED A PERSON. In both scenarios, it's taken either a responsible person or an idiot to physically touch the gun. And even though more people die in automobile related incidents than with guns; NOT 1 car has ever killed a person. That too takes a person operating it.

Now; are there retards out there that have no business behind the trigger of gun? Most definitely. Unfortunately, as with anything in life, there is pros and cons. And while our judicial and constitutional system is excellent in providing freedoms and rights; it also provides us the ability to be innocent until proven guilty. Which means that we should not be restricted from exercising our rights; or have our rights taken away from us; until we've proven ourselves to be retarded. Whether it's the 1st, 2nd, or any other amendment in the bill of rights. So because of this, there will be some retards that harm people using a gun. But these same retards are the ones who probably have a history of bad choices and decisions.

Anyway; there are very few items on the planet in their natural state that can hurt or kill a person without intervention from a human being. Loaded Firearms are nothing more than a tool for defensive purposes; a tool for hunting; or a tool for sport.

rptrower
August 16, 2009, 06:34 PM
My father was a combat medic in WWII, so I learned to shoot a Colt 1911 when I was big enough to handle the weapon. After being discharge from the army and getting married it was a totally different story.

My wife did not want any guns in the house period! For about thirty years I kept my weapons hide in the garage and various other places. About 2 years ago, when I was 60 years old, someone tried to break into our house when my wife was the only one home. Due to the fact we have steel doors and good deadbolt locks and 2 barking dogs, the thief did not get in. Immediately my wife WANTED GUNS IN THE HOUSE!

Now my wife has learned to fire a pistol, owns a Beretta 92FS and is a fairly good shot. Its a shame it took her so many years to realize being capable of using a handgun can make a person feel more safe.

You have received a lot of good advice in the above posts. I don't know the gun laws in Australia in regards to protecting your self. Maybe if you could show your parents some cases where having a pistol in the home has saved the homeowner's life it might help change their opinion.

Jezz
August 17, 2009, 03:40 AM
some of you have stated home defence as a point. if you read the start of this tread you would not i live in australia ,Home defence is not really an issue here as no one carrys guns or knives on them as it is an offence to do so ( yes people still do carry things they shouldnt). owning guns in australia isnt a right as it is in the USA but more a privlige. you need a clean criminal record etc to apply 4 certain firearms....:(

unfortunatly as was mentioned there are idiots in this world who walk in to schools, malls etc and open fire, it is storys like this that make the Australian papers and news. this makes people very uneasy about guns eg my parents. (dont no why but it does). it was one such idiot that led this country to have some of the stricktest gun laws in the world........:(

it seems ill just have to contiue to borrow guns as i wont be able to own one till i move :(

Doogle
August 17, 2009, 05:36 AM
...and probably other countries, understand our situation with handguns in Australia. The concept of using a handgun for self defence just isn't valid here.

Handguns can only be used for approved purposes which narrows things down to sporting/competition at approved venues. You cannot just take your pistol out into the bush or onto someones property for a shoot, (as you can do with a rifle, for example). Handguns must be shot only at approved ranges. There is NO carry, concealed or open, allowed to the average handgun owner. You are legally only permitted to transport your weapons directly to & from approved ranges. The handguns must be stored in approved gunsafes that are secured to at least 2 walls in an approved manner (see, they like "approved" here :-) Ammunition must be kept in separate locked storage. So, there's no such thing (legally) as just grabbing the readily acessable loaded handgun to confront a home intruder. If you did manage to open the gunsafe, then the ammo compartment, and load the weapon, the chances are you would be spending a great deal of time with lawyers and in court. Even if found to have acted with justification you may never hold a license again. You may say that at least you'd be alive, and perhaps so. However, I'm pointing out that self defense with firearms just isn't a common concept here. It is mitigated against both legally and practically.

Of course gun owners can act illegally in how they use and store their weapons but every incident that happens, and is reported in the media, is another nail in the coffin of private shooting in this country.

This is the way it is here. We're not necessarily whinging about it, but we do need to pay attention to the legalities if we wish to continue enjoying shooting. It's not a right here, but a privilege, and you are made only too aware of this as you go through the long process of gaining a handgun license. Handgun owners make up a relatively minor percentage of gun owners in Australia.

Don't feel too sorry for us, if that was even in you mind. Our gun laws are quite restrictive but we have compensations in other areas of life.

Anyway, Jezz, good luck with your shooting. You seem to be approaching it as best you can at the moment.

Jezz
August 17, 2009, 06:34 AM
Thanks for your help Doogle.

i do think Australias gun laws r a bit harsh, but you are right we are compensated for :) although it would be nice to see some lower gun prices here..... o well :)

Dingoboyx
August 17, 2009, 07:01 AM
So, where in Oz are you? Canberra this way (moving to Caloundra, QLD at the moment).

I know in the ACT & NSW you can ENDORSE your firearm on someone elses licence.... so you OWN it, anyone with your firearm endorsed on thier licence can store it for you, or shoot it with your permission. This is how some club members store the club guns in thier private safe.... because the club guns are endorsed on thier licence.

If I were you, I would buy a small aproved safe & screw it in your wardrobe & tell your parents it is for your ipod & prized effects. Let your parents know you are buying a gun, and have it endorsed on a mates licence.... let your parents know you have bought it and who is storing it for you. Leave it at that for a while, then when you are going to shoot the next day, tell the easiest parent to 'pull one over' that your mate wont be at shooting the next day, you want to pick up your gun the day before.... ask is that ok? If they say "ok, just this time" you have one foot in the door. After the shoot, let the endorsed storer take it home with them, let your parents know you are doing the right thing.

After a while, sometimes just bring the gun home and put it in your safe & say nothing, other times leave it with your mate. I guess you have gun belts, ammo boxes & range bag, so when you are off to the range, put the gun in your range bag and transfer it to the locked metal box bolted/cabled to your car. If your parents have to take you to the range, have the gun in a locked aproved box in your range bag with a combination chain/cable coming thru 2 holes strategically cut in your range bag so the cable goes in one hole, thru the handle of the box & out the other hole, put your range bag in the boot (trunk) and run the cable around something suitable so it is secured to the vehicle.

I agree, try to persist & get your folks to get a little excited/interested in your chosen SPORT. Bring targets home to show them, bring the gun home to show them , but let them see you are suffering the inconvenience of having to take it back to your mates place for storage (even tho you forgot you left it in your safe):D and keep gently asking if you can keep it at home. Keep all the other equipment at home, you dont need a licence for a gunbelt/holster, cleaning kit, fresh targets, staple gun (yet):D

Remind them after a days shooting, there was 30+ shooters at the range with several guns each & oddly, no one got killed :D

If you do have it at home any time, just store it aprovedly and dont get caught playing with it in your bedroom :D I am sure you have had lots of 'contraband' in your room without your parents knowing in the past.... and they cant sneak into your room and look in your safe (only you can know the combination)

It's a bit sneaky, but you are old enough to own the gun, licenced to own it/them so you should be allowed to keep it at home in an approved manner.

Its either that or move out ;)

I have a Walther P22 (as well as 16 other HG's & 5 rifles, coach gun, 410 & musket) I love my P22.... Rugers are good too :D

How far off getting your licence are you? have you got thru your 6 months probation yet?

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344538&highlight=insight

Take care, enjoy

Beentown71
August 17, 2009, 07:58 AM
Always thought I would like to live in the land of Oz but I guess not:( Seems just so much work just to go plink.

Beentown

Skans
August 17, 2009, 08:55 AM
Me too. I used to think that Oz was truly the land of the free. Ain't so. Once upon a time it was, but they don't have a 2nd Amendment and the anti-gunners succeeded in banning guns and convincing many people over there that guns are evil.

Dingoboyx
August 17, 2009, 10:02 PM
Our changes to our gun laws was achieved by the government manufacturing a massacer at Port Arthur in Tasmania (Australia) where mostly Asian tourists were singled out and shot precicely & efficiently with mostly head & neck shots by a professional marksman of great skill & markmanship, and the blame put on an intelectually impared young man, who had only ever owned an air rifle.... Martin Bryant was the fall guy to enable the government to appear to be our saviour and remove/restrict gun ownership in Australia.

Martin was lured back to the farm house of his grandparents where the eleged massacer began, from 40 miles away, where he was on closed circuit TV at the time of the shooting, where miraculously the rifle used in the massacer happened to turn up along with 250 rounds of ammunition. Martin was surrounded and in fear, shot the 250 rounds at police without hitting a single thing. A little unusual, as the killer shot & killed 30+ firing from the hip, yet Martin couldnt hit a thing with the same rifle. There was also a second shooter in a separate farm shed shooting as Martin fired blindly out of the window of the main house! (Sounds like the 'Grassy Knoll', dont it?):eek:

http://home.overflow.net.au/~nedwood/portarthur.html

The link is to the full story from the 'conspiricy' point of view. By googling Martin Bryant there is alot of reading on the subject, supposedly from the facts (LMAO) and all that followed.... well worth a read.

Poor Martin is, I guess, still in prison in Tasmania, he never had a fair trial, never pleaded guilty until he was forced under duress (he is mentally impared.... simple... mental age of about 12 years old)

The lengths Governments will go to to get thier way is actually quite frightening, to say the least,:eek::rolleyes:

Steve1911
August 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
When I was a youngster... and the world was a different place. My father always told me "Son, if you don't like my rules... find a roof to sleep under that you like more."

It might come to that.

But yes your parents are right ... the firearm is a weapon and originally created for war... and killing people. But that is not the only function they have today.

Remain strong in your beliefs and maybe someday down the road, your parents will see your point of view. But just remember you will catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Jezz
August 18, 2009, 03:18 AM
hi Dingoboyx

I live in SA, Mt Gambier

I do like your idea, but my dad is very strickted on his policy of "there will never be a gun in this house", so at this stage i wont try annoy them ( i like free rent and food at the moment:)0

I shoot with a good friend and hisDad every week they have just got their licences too. and i will be able to store my gun there when i get it in 2 months or so(thinking Browning buckmark at this stage) and have the gun in my name


i hope they will come round to the hole shooting idea.....
thanks for your imput:)

Jezz
August 18, 2009, 03:25 AM
Australia is a great place, it just has stricket laws on firearms, a bit to stricked but that is why we have very few shootings in australia. i would like to see laws lacked a bit but i would never carry a gun on me even if we were allowed to in this country as there is no need.

Dingoboyx
August 18, 2009, 03:50 AM
Aussie is a beaut place to be :D

Yes, the gun laws are tight, but reasonably fair, at least we can shoot, hey:D

But, isn't it strange.... no matter what rules they put on us.... the CRIMINALS still have guns :eek: Funny that.... NOT!

I would still be getting the safe, if I were you, you will still need it when you 'fly the coup' eventually.... you can keep your other goodies in it, and you can have your gun (s) endorsed on your mates licence for storage. Will your dad stop you from bringing it home to clean, service it, then take it back to your mates place for storage?

Does your parents have any friends thier age that shoot, that might put in a good word for you?:D

Jezz
August 18, 2009, 04:14 AM
no matter how harsh laws are there will always be people who can get there hands on stuff there not ment 2, just a matter of $$$ really.....

I think mite look into a handgun safe at least....i will need one eventually anyways so may as well.....:cool:

Dad doesnt want the gun in the house at anytime....... i dont mind cleaning guns at my mates....makes it fun sort....only a 5min drive 2....

Unfortunatly for me the only real shooter my dad knows happens to be just like the sterotype shooter he has in his head.......he has just about every gun to man, broken many hunting regulations and leaves loaded guns around the house in case he sees a roo or sumthing and has a short temper........he is a good guy at heart tho

I will happly live at home for the next 18 months as long as i can buy my gun and shoot it when i want 2 :)

Dingoboyx
August 18, 2009, 04:36 AM
No wonder your dad dont like guns :eek::D

Sounds like you are on the right track.... good onya ;)

Steve1911
August 18, 2009, 11:32 AM
Try getting one of these.

http://www.selfdefensegearco.com/FingerprintAccessSafetyBox-PE.htm

It is about the size of a laptop.

No one will know what is inside.

You can keep it at your mates house. But if you need it at home... it is too far away.

Jezz
August 19, 2009, 01:24 AM
that looks pretty cool....ill have to see if it meets regulations for storage here......thanks a heap:)

CzCasull
August 19, 2009, 03:31 AM
Bulletproof safe, man. One of those small ones. I'm sure if you discuss it with the 'rents they might say ok.