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Composer_1777
August 4, 2009, 08:23 PM
I need some good pro-gun arguments. I have very little to say on the issue other than people self regulate, you need armed citizens or gangs can take advantage of the general populus, without the fear of retaliation crime would sky-rocket. What do we say to the statistics, citing USA as the main cause of gun violence in mexico and Canada?

I was searching Austrian gun laws and came across disturbing anti-gun articles and news reports. I couldn't come up with a good pro-gun argument.

raimius
August 4, 2009, 10:02 PM
Well, the "90%" bits are usually bogus. The real stats are something like "90% of TRACED firearms" used in Mexican crime come from the US. (I don't remember the exact number) Mexico sends less than half of their crime guns to the US for tracing.

Do you really think the mexican cartels are going to pay $1100 for an AR-15, when they can buy a full auto AK on the black market for roughly $200?

Go to Gunfacts for a LOT of stats.

Composer_1777
August 4, 2009, 10:08 PM
Great point, I will check it out.

blume357
August 5, 2009, 07:18 AM
They only send the guns to us that they think can be traced... if it's a full auto Ak direct from China via Honduras ....

But then none of that really is about the 'debate'.

I would just say it's about Human rights and the right of an individual to protect him or herself, also to protect their home and family and ultimately protect others who can't (widows and orphans) from evil. Evil comes in many forms from a loan serial killer (Ted Bundy) to large bureaucratic 'organizations'... Nazi Germany.... the later is much harder to actually see the closer you are to them.

Bartholomew Roberts
August 5, 2009, 07:33 AM
http://www.guncite.com is the place to go for a wide array of arguments discussing the myths behind gun control.

jack404
August 5, 2009, 07:43 AM
http://www.haciendapub.com/comm8.html

Gun Control in Australia --- Chaos Down Under

Miguel A. Faria, Jr., MD


Last August, the rugged Aussie survivalist whose real life exploits inspired the "Crocodile Dundee" movies died in what then appeared to be a mysterious shootout with Australian police. A police sergeant was also killed in the incident. It was reported that Rodney William Ansell, the 44-year-old, blond haired Aussie, resembled uncannily Paul Hogan the actor who played his part in the movie and the sequel. Although Ansell was no angel and had had previous run-ins with police, he had been named 1988 Australian Northern Territory Man of the Year for inspiring the movie and putting "the Australian Outback on the map."

What motivated this shooting? In 1996, Australia adopted draconian gun control laws banning certain guns (60 percent of all firearms), requiring registration of all firearms and licensing of all gun owners. "Crocodile Dundee" believed the police were coming to confiscate his unregistered firearms. In Australia today, police can enter your house and search for guns, copy the hard drive of your computer, seize records, and do it all without a search warrant. It's the law that police can go door to door searching for weapons that have not been surrendered in their much publicized gun buy back program. They have been using previous registration and firearm license lists to check for lapses and confiscate non-surrendered firearms.

The problem began with the Port Arthur (a Tasmanian resort) tragedy on April 28, 1996, when a crazed assailant opened fire and shot 35 people. Australians were shocked and the government reacted quickly. Draconian gun legislation was passed in the heat of the moment. There are three major political parties in Australia: the center right (Liberal Party), the socialist camp (Labor Party), and the ultra left (Australian Democratic Party) --- which tilted the balance of power toward stringent gun control at the expense of freedom.

As a result of the ban, all semiautomatic firearms (rifles and handguns) are proscribed, including .22 caliber rabbit guns and duck-hunting Remington shotguns.

Writing in The Gun Owners (Jan. 31, 2000), the newsletter for Gun Owners of America (GOA), former California State Senator H.L. Richardson writes: "They outlawed every semi-auto, even those pretty duck guns, the Browning A5 and the Remington 1100s. They even struck down pump shotguns: the Winchester model 12 and the Remington 870...Do you own a Browning BAR rifle? Banned. How about a Winchester Model 100? Out of luck, all semi-auto hunting rifles were outlawed as well. They didn't miss a one."

Be that as it may, at a cost of $500 million, out of an estimated 7 million firearms (of which 2.8 million were prohibited), only 640,000 guns were surrendered to police. What has been the result? Same as in England. Like in Great Britain, crime Down Under has escalated. Twelve months after the law was implemented in 1997, there has been a 44 percent increase in armed robberies; an 8.6 percent increase in aggravated assaults; and, a 3.2 percent increase in homicides. That same year in the state of Victoria, there was a 300 percent increase in homicides committed with firearms. The following year, robberies increased almost 60 percent in South Australia. By 1999, assaults had increased in New South Wales by almost 20 percent.

Two years after the ban, there have been further increases in crime: armed robberies by 73 percent; unarmed robberies by 28 percent; kidnappings by 38 percent; assaults by 17 percent; manslaughter by 29 percent, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics.

And consider the fact that over the previous 25-year period, Australia had shown a steady decrease both in homicide with firearms and armed robbery --- until the ban.

Australia, a semi-arid, isolated continent, and a vast nation-state, in many ways parallels the history of the United States. In the 1850s and 1860s, it had gold rushes and pioneering settlers, reminiscent of our own western migration. In World War I and World War II, it fought with the allies. Australia remained a subject of Great Britain until 1986, when the last ties with the British crown were dissolved. With only 19 million people, Australia has an impressive fauna that includes plenty of varmints, marsupials, dingoes (that wreak havoc on livestock), as well as large rats and other rodents. Yet, hunting has become prohibitively difficult for all but a handful of Australians with private lands and the usual connections. Now, the ban on firearms and the disarmament of ordinary Australians has left criminals free to roam the countryside as they please. Bandits, of course, kept their guns. Like in America, only the law-abiding, by definition, obey the law. Yet, the leftist Australian government has responded by passing more laws; in 1998 Bowie knives and other knives and items including handcuffs were banned.

Licensing is difficult. Self and family protection is not considered a valid reason to own a firearm. The right to self-defense, like in Great Britain and Canada, is not recognized in Australia, Like Americans, Australians loved and possessed firearms --- that is until the ban. Freedom has been extinguished. A way of life has ended. Please, don't tell me it cannot happen here!

Dr. Faria is the Editor-in-Chief of the Medical Sentinel. His e-mail is [email protected].

Originally published in the Medical Sentinel 2000;5(3):107. Copyright©2000 Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS)


nuff said ??

cheers

jack


PS

OBSERVABLE FACT AFTER 12 MONTHS OF DATA



* Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2%.

* Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6%.

* Australia-wide, armed-robberies are up 44%. (yes, FORTY-FOUR PERCENT)

* In the state of Victoria, homicides-with-firearms are up 300%!

* The steady decrease in homicides-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.

* The steady decrease in armed-robbery-with-firearms that occurred during the previous 25 years became an increase in the last 12 months.

* There has been a dramatic increase in breakins-and-assaults-of-the-elderly.

* At the time of the ban, the Prime Minister said "self-defense is not a reason for owning a firearm".

* From 1910 to present, homicides in Australia have averaged about 1.8-per-100,000 or lower, a safe society by any standard.

* The ban has destroyed Australia's standings in some international sport shooting competitions.

* The membership of the Australian Sports Shooting Association has increased by 200% in response to the ban and in an attempt to organize against further controls, which are expected.

* Australian politicians are on the spot and at a loss to explain why no improvement in "safety" has been observed after such monumental effort and expense was successfully expended in "ridding society of guns". Their response has been to "wait longer".

from

http://www.nrawinningteam.com/auresult.html

REMEMBER

when they take away the guns they only take the legally registered guns befiore these nazi style laws everyone had a shotty or .22 at home now we have HOME INVASIONS daily

when they take the legal guns only criminals will have guns

5whiskey
August 5, 2009, 02:16 PM
The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.-Thomas Jefferson

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms..disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed one." - Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria, Criminologist in 1764. That was 230 years ago. -Thomas Jefferson

"The right of the people to keep and bear...arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country..." (James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434 [June 8, 1789])

"...to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them." (George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

"Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state government, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people" (Tench Coxe, Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788)

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" (Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836)

http://www.uhuh.com/guns/2ndquotes.htm

The real reason why we have the second amendment... I left a few to get you started ;)

Webleymkv
August 5, 2009, 10:55 PM
When faced with statistic of countries such as the UK that have strict gun control and lower crime rates, point out countries such as Australia that, last I checked, had a violent crime rate that has risen to almost identical to ours since the implemented strict gun control laws. Then point out that Switzerland, which has some of the easiest access to full-auto weapons, has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. These facts, if anything, should at least educate your opponent as to the folly in assuming that crime rates are determined by a single factor like gun control.

jack404
August 6, 2009, 12:16 AM
let me relate you a incident from last evening

3 middle eastern youtyhs pulled up in a car outside the block of flats i live in ( not a good area ) and started yelling abuse at another middle eastern person

they then stormed the place , bashed the guy and shot him in the leg

a hand gun was used

the cops eventually arrived and started going hard on all the residents for ID's of the attackers

i'm on the top floor i am armed and licenced, i gave them the video footage i took with my POS phone camera but they where more interested in my workshop ( i repair firearms) a few hours after that i got a call from the firearms squad asking me lots of questions

the cops aint chaseing the illegal guns as thats too hard , they'd rather try breach me for something they think i may have done

everything here is legit
but they warned me they would be keeping a eye on me

why??

they have to get a result and i'm looking liike a easier pimnch than chasing a middle eastern gang banger

i'm a 28 year veteran of ouyr military no criminal convictions 1 speeding ticket total and 2 parking fines outside a girls place i knew back when

thats it

but they'll be watching me

how about watching the dope dealer who got bashed and shot ??

too hard

did i break a law??

no i called the cops as thats thier job

but i repair sporting rifles so i must be bad

tyhats life under gun control

the crims have guns and most folks dont so the crims can do what they like

and when the cops come they see me and think easy pinch

its sickening and how can they do it??

gun control

we have lost our rights to self defence

we have lost so many rights its plain wrong

once they take away one right its just a slippery slope

what next i'll tell you freedom of speach as if i complain against thisn i can be done for SEDITION or speaking against the government

in the US you have a wonderful document called the CONSTITUTION

if we had such here they could not do this unless we allowed it

do not allow them to take away your rights

defend your rights

all of them
only you can stop them from taking those rights away

you have the right to fight tyrants

you have the right to speak out

DO SO

NOW!!! before its too late and you end up like us in Australia

protect your constitution and it will protect you

thats what it was made for

your founding fathers knew that and designed it that way

but again only you can allow them to remove your rights


good luck and fight hard

jack

Al Norris
August 6, 2009, 12:43 AM
This really isn't a topic for the Law & Civil Rights forum. More on the order of General Discussion. But...

I'm not about to saddle Bud & Company with the rants I've just read. :barf:

Question asked and answered.

Closed.