Tactically is this how it should be done?

[wickedrider]

This is an incident that occurred in Richmond, VA, I believe on Saturday. Note how the victims were telling the the OC to kill him. Note his reaction. He only used the force necessary to stop the threat. Is this how it should be done?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/ROBB15_20090714-222605/280016/#comments

Richmond Store owner grateful for man who shot robber

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By Reed Williams

Published: July 15, 2009

Three days after Mustapha Kassou was shot in an attempted robbery in his store in South Richmond, he said that he owed his life to the man who ended the ordeal by shooting the robber.

Yesterday, Kassou returned to Golden Food Market on Jefferson Davis Highway for the first time since he was shot there Saturday afternoon.

Kassou said the masked robber walked into the store shortly after 1 p.m. and seemed startled to see about eight people inside. The robber told everyone to get on the floor, and then he fired at Kassou and hit him twice, he said.

"When the guy shot me, I was waiting for him to finish me," Kassou said. "I was knocked down behind the cash register."

The other armed man pulled a six-shot revolver from his holster and told the robber to drop his weapon, Kassou said. When he didn't, authorities say, the man shot the robber once in the torso, took the robber's gun and called police.

Witnesses told police it appeared the robber ran out of bullets and tried to reload. Some people in the store told the man to finish off the robber, witnesses reported.

"Everyone was telling him to kill him," Kassou said, "but he said, 'I can't do it.'"

Saturday's incident was the second such shooting at the store in a month.

The two shootings at Golden Food and the fatal shooting of a shopkeeper last month in another store just blocks away have alarmed some nearby residents, although police say the number of violent crimes along the Jefferson Davis corridor has been declining since May.

Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District includes the corridor, and police Cmdr. Steve Drew will hold a public safety meeting for Jeff Davis-area business owners tonight from 6 to 8 at the Satellite Restaurant, 4000 Jefferson Davis Highway.

Kassou was released from the hospital Sunday, but he was limping and in obvious pain yesterday. He sat inside his store with family members, but he kept the front door locked. He said the shootings have made him scared of almost everyone.

He said he was struggling with whether he should reopen the store. He does not know how he would support his wife and two children if he chooses to keep the store closed.

Kassou said he is considering returning to his native Morocco. He said he is an American citizen and has lived here about 20 years and loves this country.

"It's not worth it anymore," he said, adding that he will arm himself if he reopens the store.

Kassou said he still is alive because of God -- and because of the man who drew a .45-caliber Western-style revolver and ended Saturday's robbery by shooting the gunman.

"He saved a lot of lives," Kassou said. "He was like an angel who came to save everybody."

Authorities say the robber was wounded after he shot Kassou and fired on customers.

Neither Kassou nor the police would identify the man who shot the robber. Authorities said an initial investigation indicates the man acted lawfully when he shot the robber.

Police have charged James Grooms III, 30, of South Richmond with attempted robbery, use of a firearm and possession of a firearm by a felon.

He remained in critical condition last night at VCU Medical Center.

A woman who said she is one of Grooms' relatives declined to comment when reached by phone yesterday.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Tactically is this how it should be done?

I don't know about giving the guy a warning after he already shot someone, but other than that, yes.


"Authorities said an initial investigation indicates the man acted lawfully when he shot the robber."

Whew! Bet they needed the rocket scientists to figure that one out.:rolleyes:

[skydiver3346]

Thank God for CCW in that incident. No telling how many folks would have been shot if the robber was not stopped by this citizen and his conceal carry pistol. Richmond, VA is my home town and I feel for the store owner and his family. Being as this business has been robbed (prior to this hold up as well), it is probably best the owner does arm himself before re-opening his store....

[LeopardCurDog]

Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?

[KLRANGL]

Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?
Or too afraid of being prosecuted for acting lawfully... Or afraid of actually having to shoot someone...

I think the more interesting fact is that everyone in the store told him to finish the guy off...

[csmsss]

I think the more interesting fact is that everyone in the store told him to finish the guy off... Interesting, and unsurprising. When you consider how little time so many who are convicted of crimes like this (and worse) actually serve, well...reactions like this are quite understandable.

[OuTcAsT]

Why the heck give a warning?

Perhaps an effort to try and keep from having to shoot someone. There are ways to use graduated amounts of force, there's also this;

Witnesses told police it appeared the robber ran out of bullets and tried to reload.

The good guy may have tried to take advantage of this "reload" to gain compliance by the robber, when he felt it was not going to happen, he fired.

Either way, to answer the question, I believe it was artfully done, the man exercised great restraint and finesse.

[Trooper Tyree]

I'd like to know what kind of "Cowboy gun" he was carrying. If he used a single action six shooter it would be interesting to know. :rolleyes:

I've been thinking about carrying a birdseye grip single action sheriff type model. I know that isn't a very popular choice for CC, and many people would think it an unwise and insane choice, but when I pick up a single action six gun it's like an extension of my arm, a feeling I never get with simiautos or even modern revolvers. I "know" where the bullet's going to hit, I don't have to use the sights, it's simply a matter shooting what I'm looking at. With simi's that "extension of the arm" feeling isn't there and I have to rely on the sights to hit what I want to.

I guess it all comes down to what one's comfortable with.

If things went down as were described, it sounds like the man handled himself and the situation very well.

[omkhan]

The man did a great job, no doubt abt that. But how come the shooter is not identified? Did he wait for the police or left the place? Could any one enlighten me what would happen if a person legally shot some one & leave the scene without informing the authorities and wait for their arrival? I mean can charges be pressed against him(later of course because sooner or later he may be discovered). Thanks

[Jim March]

As much as I'd love to know details on the gun, the shooter SHOULD NOT BE IDENTIFIED!!!

The robber may have equally twisted kinfolk or fellow gangbangers.

[Jim March]

Check out this posted comment to the story:

---
Posted by ( nostretstranger ) on July 15, 2009 at 5:02 pm

IF U KNEW MR.GROOMS, U WOULD KNOW THAT THIS IS (WAS) NOT HIS CHARACTER. IT’S SAD TO KNOW THAT YET ANOTHER LIFE HAS BEEN TAKEN FOR A SENSELESS CRIME. MY HEART AND PRAYERS GOES OUT TO THIS MAN AND HIS FAMILY.
THE INDIVIDUAL THAT THINKS HE DID SOCIETY A FAVOR, U DIDN’T…U ONLY HAVE TO FACE FATE ON JUDGMENT DAY. I HOPE AND PRAY U CAN JUSTIFY THIS TO UR MAKER, (AND NOT YOUR PARENTS EITHER!!)
THERE WAS NO HERO IN THIS SHAME ONLY A TRAGEDY. ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL LOST TO SOCIETY AND TURNED TO THE STREETS.

MR.GROOMS WILL ALWAYS BE LOVED AND MOST IMPORTANTLY HIS GOOD MEMORIES WILL BE CHERISHED…...
---

Jim again. You want the author of THAT little screed knowing the name of the CCW holder?

[Trooper Tyree]

You think that's bad, read some of the comments at the end of this article. :eek:

http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?threadid=1193015&boardsparam=Page%3d2


The article says "Neither Kassou nor the police would identify the man who shot the robber." Would, not could, I'm sure they know who he is they just wouldn't release who it was.

[Jim March]

Single action wheelgun?

If so: STYLE POINTS, BAYBEE!

:cool:

[Brit]

Just imagine the Police asking the customers who have just had their lives saved (they would think) by a man with a "Cowboy gun" to describe the "Cowboy"

"What guy with a gun?" "I was looking the other way" I bet 4 where in the toilet!

[pax]

Deleted a few off-topic posts.

Please stick to the subject in the OP. Hijacking is rude.

pax

[OldMarksman]

How? Can't say. Wasn't there.

If I had to venture a guess, I do not think I would have found myself giving a warning. Matter of fact, I really, really don't think so!

What one cannot know is whether the man with the man who saved the day might have been able to shoot first. Mr. Kassou might have been better off.

[MisterPX]

Good guy handled it extremely well. Whether or not to speak, is up to the individual. Not listening to the peanut gallery telling him to finish off the bad guy was paramount. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat, you've reached your limit on deadly force. If good guy had executed (yes, it would have been an execution) the downed bad guy, the good guy would be no better than the bad guy.

[Brit]

Good guy handled it extremely well. Whether or not to speak, is up to the individual. Not listening to the peanut gallery telling him to finish off the bad guy was paramount. Once the bad guy is no longer a threat, you've reached your limit on deadly force. If good guy had executed (yes, it would have been an execution) the downed bad guy, the good guy would be no better than the bad guy.

+1

[ZeSpectre]

Why the heck give a warning? I'll never figure that one out. Folks watching too much TV maybe?

I'm going with "absolutely didn't want to take a life and was giving a last gasp effort at diffusing the situation before doing anything irreversible".

Tactically unsound, but very VERY human.

[Jim March]

Tactically unsound, but very VERY human.

Yup. Required reading: "On Killing" by Col. Grossman. He shows exactly what happens when people go to war: they either kill, or they run away, or they go into a supporting-role mode (reloading the guns for the people who ARE shooting, fetching ammo, caring for wounded, etc.) or they "posture" - basically try and scare the other guy away.

"Posturing" takes all kinds of forms, some of which are tactically sound, some are so very NOT.

Verbally challenging an "active shooter" falls deep in the "not" category, but "posturing" to avoid a lethal fight is hard-wired into our genes. So it happens a lot.

Damned few people can go from "zero to kill" even under serious threat. You have to mentally work out the morality of the situation beforehand so you're not trying to do so when it's a two-way shooting range. And THEN you have to roll-play the hell out of it if you want even a chance of it working out as well as it did in this case.

Plain fact: humans are NOT hard-wired to kill. Believe it.

[Alleykat]

Perhaps an effort to try and keep from having to shoot someone. There are ways to use graduated amounts of force, there's also this;

Nope, just a combination of ignorance, stupidity and timidity. It's just as simple as that. No warning required or desired, in that situation.

[ZeSpectre]

"On Killing" by Col. Grossman
Excellent reading by the way.

On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society (http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116)

[rampage841512]

Strickly from a tactics standpoint I'd say the warning was a serious mistake unless it happened while the BG was reloading. Still not all that tactically sound but the other guy being in the middle of a reload is a bit mitigating. He did good though. In the end the good guy accomplished his goal, and it's hard to argue with success.

[KLRANGL]

I just got this in a VCDL (http://www.vcdl.org/) update from Philip Van Cleave (VCDL President). I thought it was worth posting here as it has some interesting points, and does a lot to clear up the situation (not just what the news tells you). Sorry its a bit long, but there is no way to directly link to it.

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.

[Jim March]

Holy crap...trigger broke so he slip-hammered it. This would have been an Italian replica, likely Uberti or Pietta, possibly Armi San Marco if he's had it a while?

I'm glad I pack a Ruger.

Although to be fair, the reason slip-hammering worked is because the gun had no transfer bar or hammer block safety. It's still possible to carry a Remington fully loaded, as the cylinder has between-position notches to lower the hammer between live rounds, a practice North American Arms revived in their mini-revolvers. OR he was doing "five up carry", hammer down on the empty. Either way, he solved the matter with four rounds (and three hits) so it hardly matters.

EXCELLENT shooting and gun handling. The guy knew his gun and knew how to compensate for damage to it and keep fighting. Sounds like excellent use of cover, too.

[Brian Pfleuger]

That is a great example of a brave man right there. Doing what has to be done and no more. Awesome. I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.

[OldMarksman]

I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.

This is one of those cases in which everything worked out OK but things could have turned out worse.

I usually carry a five shot DA revolver. A lot faster to reload than an 1875 Remington or Colt Model P, but there's always the possibility that five won't be enough.

Two things amaze me here: The fact that the guy kept coming after several hits from the .45 (.38 Long Colt, OK, but .45?) and the armed citizen's choice of a replica of Frank James' sidearm.

[ZeSpectre]

things amaze me here: The fact that the guy kept coming after several hits from the .45 (.38 Long Colt, OK, but .45?)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If, for some reason, the person shot doesn't react to the PSYCHOLOGY of being shot ("Oh No, I've been SHOT") then it's down to how long it takes the physiology to shut down from either sheer trauma to the central nervous system or loss of blood (and oxygen to the brain).

If, for example, a person simply doesn't care (due to drugs, rage, etc) that they've been shot directly in the heart, they may still have a good 30-50 seconds of "operational" time before lack of oxygen to the brain renders them unconscious/dead.

In the typical combat situation a LOT can happen in 30-50 seconds!

[Jim March]

I'll probably catch some flak for this but his single mistake was probably made in carrying a single action revolver for defense.

Well...did it really make a difference?

He got the first shot off damned fast, which is the SA's strong point. He hit with it, which was even better. And knowing follow-up shots weren't going to be as fast as, say, a Glock, he dove for cover and apparently maintained good use of cover and kept up effective fire - 3 out of 4 hits is damned good by any standard.

The gun broke, yeah - it was a cheap Italian piece. But the *design* wasn't half bad as it would still run with damage that would have turned anything else into a doorstop.

A Ruger SA likely wouldn't have broke, or at least would have held up under more stress than anything from Italy. (You can break anything, a Ruger included.)

One thing we still don't know about is ammo used. We know the caliber, but what was in there? You can get some very, VERY good modern JHPs in 45LC, including Speer's 250gr "giant hollowpoint from hell", basically the same slug as the 38+P 135gr except scaled WAY up. That Speer 250 may be among the world's most effective subsonic combat loads ever, in any caliber.

Then again, with a 7.5" barrel more or less any JHP should expand, and there are almost no really bad ones - the Winchester 225 Silvertip is likely the most common in circulation.

In any case, from the way the goblin was acting it's obvious he was high, probably cocaine...it can make people "feel immortal" like that.

Now, I carry an SA myself, Ruger New Vaquero in 357, 4.68" barrel. It's my daily carry CCW piece in Tucson AZ, carried in a fanny pack. It's loaded with the absolute nastiest 357s I can get - Speer's 125gr Gold Dot high speed variant slug loaded by Doubletap to warp speed...about 1,600fps, almost 800ft/lbs energy. It's a round I would NOT want to be hit with. And I've got exactly the same gameplan in mind that this guy pulled off: get an accurate and potent hit in fast then MOVE.

It worked for him.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Well...did it really make a difference?

I simply can not see how a SA can have an advantage over any other gun. I can see disadvantages but no advantages, so the question is, why? Just for example, what if he'd been hit in the arm? He could have been unable to work the hammer. Imagine a broken trigger and a wounded arm? Very high chance in a situation like this. Did it happen? No, but he largely got lucky.

[hogdogs]

But don't rule out the kid who was trained by Great Grampa and Grampa with a single action wheel gun from 6 years old... Never having grabbed the grip of a glock or even a DA wheel gun his whole life just a few rounds from a long gun to boot... I had a 60-70 sumthin year old scout leader that could hit 3 yardsale coffee cups tossed up at one time with 3 shots fanning the hammer from the hip...
Sumbuck didn't miss them big ol' slow flyin' fence chickens (pheasants) with a .45colt. Ol' Ernie Zeidi was a bad sumbuck on the backside of a single action wheel gun... cancer and all he was "THAT DUDE"...
Brent

[Jim March]

Well the trigger breaking was a fluke.

If he'd been shot in one hand, he'd have switched to the other. We can cock and fire these things one-handed with no problem, in fact these operate one-handed very nicely.

There's two advantages to these things over anything else:

* Fast into action on the first shot.

* Excellent "feel in the hand" and they tend to "point naturally" - better than almost anything else at naturally pointing the gun as an extension of your hand. Ergonomics are just superb - it was designed by people who used hand tools daily instead of CAD/CAM. Ergonomics is one area of science in which I believe we've gone backwards, not forward.

They also tend to be very accurate, esp. with upgraded (from 19th century standards) sights. Even with early style sights, with the longer barrel lengths they still work very well.

And they're usually carried with serious calibers, with the 45LC and 357 being the most common. Both are superb stoppers.

Yes, there's downsides. Rate of fire is a bit slower although in skilled hands...hell, check out this video:

http://flatlander.sixshootercommunity.org/videos/

It's only four seconds long...doesn't need to be longer.

The big downside is reload speed. And it's serious. But, KNOWING THAT, you're more likely to make your shots count. "Spray and pray" isn't part of the vocabulary. And the case we're discussing is a prime example - again, three out of four shots hit.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Ergonomics could be an advantage, but I've not seen many people claiming that there isn't ANY auto or DA revolver that is just as good.

Speed on the first shot? Well, I don't know, seems like a 1911 or a Glock, or any other auto or even a DA revolver, really, would be or could be just as fast.

Glock has no safeties, pull the trigger.

1911 cocked and locked, disengage safety, pull the trigger.

SA revolver, cock the hammer, pull the trigger.

Same/same in my book. All can be done on the draw, with no speed disadvantage to speak of.

So far as accuracy, well, I'm going to say that at 5 or 8 feet, this guy would have been just as accurate with anything with a trigger.

I would be interested in exactly what form of "broken" the trigger had taken.

[Jim March]

I would be interested in exactly what form of "broken" the trigger had taken.

So would I. The Remmies have an interesting triggerguard system where the guard and trigger assembly connect into the frame from underneath. It's possible that whole assembly broke?

Also, a lot of those triggerguards were brass, and it's possible it bent inwards and jammed the trigger backwards. That would make slip-hammering a breeze.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Also, a lot of those triggerguards were brass, and it's possible it bent inwards and jammed the trigger backwards. That would make slip-hammering a breeze.

That's kind of what I wondered. It would seem like a broken trigger could easily make it possible to end up with the hammer locked back and no way to release it, or it could make it so there is no way to lock it back, which would be a WHOLE LOT better in this case.:)

[Jim March]

The police HAVE interviewed the good guy and are apparently sitting on his gun as evidence for the moment.

He just gave an interview with the paper to the same reporter that has seen the store's videotapes. The paper isn't releasing the guy's name, thank God.

In the interview he gives a detail not present in the VCDL account: once the goblin ran his gun dry (also a revolver) and clicked it a couple of times, the good guy stopped firing. THAT'S why he still had at least one round left (four shots fired). The goblin approached the counter area, wrestled with the good guy, tried to grab that Remmie, good guy retains control over it and beats the goblin upside the head - goblin tries to leave, collapses at the door.

It's apparently that period where the goblin is up and moving with a dry gun that the other people in the store urged some more action from that Remmie. And really, it would likely have been ruled justified under those circumstances if he had. Even a dry gun is an effective bludgeon and we know the goblin had murderous intent.

The key point here is that the good guy CHOSE not to keep firing. If the goblin had a speedloader and knew how to use it, he'd have been screwed but really, with this type of predator that's pretty unlikely and in any case he would have heard the "tinkle sound" of rounds dropping if the goblin had begun a reload.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART19_20090718-223008/280885/

So the Remmie didn't fail to fire, the good guy held fire. This to me absolutely seals the deal as far as this guy not getting charged. And while not totally tactically sound, holding fire once the goblin ran dry will likely help at least some with the post-shooting guilt syndrome...he was absolutely in the right the whole way and nobody will ever question that 'cept maybe the goblin's kin.

[Jim March]

Alternate link:

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/crime/article/MART191_20090718-234801/280934/

[wickedrider]

A lot of us talk about how we would react when TSHF, but really we are speaking in the abstract; me included. I can only hope and pray that I could react in the positive manner in which this gentleman did in protecting his friend and the other people in the store. He not only defended the people in the store, but he was also aware enough to think through whether he needed to take the BG's life and the consequences to himself. Understanding that he will never be the same because of the events of that day, I wish him well. I hope that people will help to protect his privacy unless and until HE chooses to go public.

[Hank15]

Legally, that's how it should be done.

If he did not warn the robber to drop the weapon, and he was later identified, a corrupt lawyer could still argue some BS and pin some charges on the good guy.

Tactically, I don't think it's too bad considering the turnout.

The robber was reloading with a gun pointed at him. Since he didn't drop it, he was shot. The "cowboy" had good control.

Morally, well, BG already shot a guy. Plus, he was warned, but he still insisted on reloading.


Just my $0.02.

[RTROYCHECK23]

I wasn't there i dont know the circumstances all i know is what i have read and i am not going to pass judgement or say if it was right or wrong because NOBODY really knows unless you were in the store at the time it happened. I give major kudo's to the good guy and a job well done he did what he had to do to neutralize the threat and who am i to judge his tactics on doing so

[KLRANGL]

who am i to judge his tactics on doing so
Because this is the tactics and training section... that's our job, to dissect other people tactics based on what we are told and decide whether it was a good or bad thing to do... Its not a condemnation of them (though sometimes people turn it into that), but the ability to learn from other peoples successes and mistakes

[Brit]

The overall situation reference a plan of action, was quite simple.

1/ No question as to who the bad guy was, none!

2/ Had gun, shoot BG.

Now of course pre-fight planning, for the next time (lightning does not strike twice) it has.

What has this well documented shooting told the group (us!) we need lots of rounds, effective ones, keep shooting! Sights that work with both eyes open, shoot/practice both eyes open, if your range allows this, put 3 or 4 targets up (to simulate one target, person, moving) people on drugs stop when the brain runs out of gas! Reason, brain shot, or body damage, with the added heart speed helping blood loss.

A very good primer to your gun fight, one which has actually happened, recently, documented reality we can all profit by.

Lesson one, in a gun fight, have a gun!

Keep Safe.

[ranchman]

No warning for that guy. Bang his dead.

[My870inVT]

Thanks goes out to KLRANGL....

I was just about to post that much more accurate story of what happened.

It's amazing how dumbed down and un-informative the original story was. the one he posted was a much better story of what happened as well as a great advocate for OC or CCW (The way it SHOULD be)

[Jim March]

Unconfirmed report is that the gun was an Uberti. No word on age; newer ones (esp. last 5 or so years) are better than previous.

There are supposedly a few high-quality American-made clones of the 1875 floating around but production was VERY low, odds are still strong this was an Italian gun and Uberti would be the most likely candidate in any case (biggest production numbers).

[Composer_1777]

I'm glad this didn't turn into an anti-gun story. I'm surprised the bg could fight the GO after being shot, seriously?

[Jim March]

I'm surprised the bg could fight the GO after being shot, seriously?

Oh, it ain't the first time. In the infamous Miami '86 shootout (FBI v. two lunatics name of Platt and Matix) the guy that did most of the killing did so after suffering a mortal wound. Among other medical issues he was spraying blood out one arm's upper inside major artery (blown up by a 9mm Winchester Silvertip that opened correctly) while delivering accurate fire with a Ruger Mini-14 (.223). Horrifying stuff.

To stop somebody who will NOT "psychologically stop" (oww! I better run away or surrender!), you have to do one of the following:

* Drop their blood so they pass out. With a handgun, that means a REALLY major hit to the chest to do so quickly enough they can't return fire, and even that's iffy. With a rifle shot to the chest, hydrostatic damage to surrounding areas can take out multiple major blood vessels at once and odds of a stop go up. But that doesn't happen with handguns...wellll...I take that back, it CAN, but you have to deliver big power to a rib bone or sternum, shatter that and use pieces of bone as secondary shrapnel throughout the chest. A very hot 357 can make that shot, but it's not at all guaranteed.

* Break the upper spine or brain.

[Composer_1777]

Oh, it ain't the first time. In the infamous Miami '86 shootout Wow i am fairly new to guns; some interesting stuff I am learning.

[onthejon55]

lets jus say that if i had been in that situation my gun would have been empty before it was all said and done

[Brit]

This was a very unique incident in the annals of bad guys, against Cops (FBI) in as much as the mind set of the Agents was Arrest/Apprehend mode, the two criminals had shown their mind set in the previous escapades they had been involved in "Shoot armored car guy dead, take cash"

The one word for the BGs MO, "kill" and the main man so to speak, had a Mini 14 Ruger, in .223, one he had fired a lot of rounds through.

The FBI blamed every one, even the 9MM WW Silvertip round, which performed exactly as designed, the advent of the .40S&W cartridge came about from this show down, when the 9mm and .45 ACP had been killing people quite effectively for close to 100 years.

The blame the other guy/ammo/tools, is entrenched in the annals of shift the blame in our society. In googling the massive amount of info on this one FBI Shootout? Mind boggling!

[Jim March]

Yeah, basically the bullet everyone blamed post-shoot was a 9mm Winnie Silvertip 115gr that expanded perfectly and traveled through about 14" of tissue - up the forearm, brief airgap past the bent elbow, through the inside upper arm (taking out THE major blood vessel), out the arm, into the chest, stopped an inch or so short of the heart.

Obviously the bullet's fault. Not.

So that led them to the 10mm at 700ft/lbs energy or more, which started cracking their early-model S&W 10mm guns, plus the grip didn't fit smaller hands, and the recoil drove many of 'em nuts. So they VERY quickly ordered milder 10mm loads (the "10mm lite") at around 500ft/lbs energy with weaker slide springs to match, but that meant the gun was still oversize for the power.

So somebody at S&W realized you can take the 10mm case, shorten it to 9mm length, make a gun the size of a 9mm and the power of the 10mm lite.

That's how the 40S&W was born, and yeah, it started with the Miami86 shooting.

Now looking at all this years later, I took a different tack: I think they were RIGHT the first time on horsepower, they should have stuck with the 10mm or similar power but in a gun that's more controllable by nature. I'm not at all the first to think so, in fact a LONG time ago the 41Magnum was designed for this exact same purpose. Today, very good 357 loads by Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap match or exceed the effectiveness of most 10mm and even 41Mag, and since it's cheaper to shoot I went there - in a gun that lets me control that kind of power.

Ruger's New Vaquero in 357.

I knew I'd be modding the sights - didn't know I'd go THIS far (:eek:) but it works.

The result is something with high practical accuracy (solving the major issue the FBI ran into in Miami) and big, big power (solving the other issue).