Considering the FH FS2000. What do you know about this gun?

[Wulfmann]

I have been thinking about a new Urban type rifle and the FN FS2000 looks like the best one for my thinking.
I don't have the aversion some do in thinking the 223 is ineffective for the role.
I like more rounds in the mag and more rounds to carry.
The gun is relatively light at 8LBs, is under 30 inches OA because of the Bullpup design, is a piston gas system (I have a Daewoo DR200 so prefer a piston over the AR blow back) has a nifty 1.6 built in optic all which make it well suited to a short/medium range weapon
Plus, it's the closet thing to a FarScape looking pulse rifle, LOL

If you have one (or know someone that does) what can you tell me both good and bad.
Please, no posts about why 223 is no good.

With the best price for a new one around $2K I would like to find out what I can before I spend what for me would be more than I have ever spent on one weapon.

Wulfmann

[Skyyr]

In the few I've handled, I can state my likes/dislikes:

Pros:
- Lightweight
- Long barrel with a shorter OAL due to bullpup design
- Composite construction means no rusting/reacting of metal components

Cons:
- PRICE! For the cost, you could get a gas-piston AR15 and an eotech.
- Plastic trigger (several have reported dislikes/issues)
- Non-modular compared to the AR, making upgrades and repairs relatively much more expensive.
- Limited RIS (rails) space.
- Due to the non-modularity of it compared to an AR15, you're limited in how accurate you can make your rifle.


The gun is definitely a "good" gun. However, if you're looking at it from an objective point of view, the AR15 is the better choice, both in cost, modularity, durability, and longevity of the design. Again, you can get a gas piston AR15 for $2,000 - $2,300, depending on the model. Considering you're looking at an average price of about $2,300-$2,500 for a proprietary FS2000 with the optic, it's more logical to go with the AR15.

If you're just looking for a cool-looking gun or you already have an AR15, then there's no reason not to get one.

[Wulfmann]

Actually, you can get a gas piston AR15 for $800-900.00.
It is called a Daewoo DR200.

I have one and for reliability (I can shoot thousands of rounds with no cleaning at all) the AR15 is weak by comparison.

You made good points on the FN; the lack of being modular could come back to bite me and the plastic trigger may be serious.

I also like the Sig556 which is a bit cheaper than a AR15 piston and a better smaller urban gun than the bigger Daewoo.

I have an AR15 Les Baer Varmint which is sweet but the need for cleaning is annoying.

Wulfmann

[Wulfmann]

I can get a new FS2000 with optics for under $2k total, the realistic actual price for one that shops.

I doubt I could get any AR15 piston with an Eotech for close to that and more like just the AR15 piston with no optics for the same money.

I might look into shortening the DR200 barrel and a folding stock to lighten up that gun buying a second to do so.
It is so reliable, of that I can attest having had 2.

I admit the "New toy" look of the FN along with its compact size fits the "urban" gun, though.

Wulfmann

[Evil Monkey]

i kn ow that you can't buy replacement parts from FN without sending your rifle in for repair.

if you can't buy parts and service your rifle yourself, there's no point in buying it, in my opinion.

Same reason I wouldn't buy a SIG556...

[Skyyr]

If you can get the FS2000 for less than $2,000 with optics, I'd say go for it, if you have the money and you won't regret locking yourself into it's few (but pronounced) disadvantages.

The piston AR's I was referring to were LWRC's, Barrett's, basically any manufacturer that has a history of reliable proprietary parts (since that's what piston systems are at this time: proprietary). An LWRC will run you about $2,200.

In regards to the Daewoo DR200: not to be someone caught up on technicalities, but it isn't an AR15. Regardless of how close it looks, shoots, and feels like an AR15, if it isn't built as a mil-spec AR15, then it isn't one because their internals aren't the same. One of the primary purposes of most for having an AR15 is it's modularity and repairability. The same goes for the Sig 556 and the Ruger 556. By getting a DR200, you'd be defeating the purpose of getting an AR15 over the FS2000.

[raven11]

i have some experience with this rifle http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/raven1121/FnF2000001.jpg

as you can see you may have trouble fitting a Tac light, eotech, forward grip , and the other 30lb of gear you can mount on the rail but if you just need room for sights then you have plenty of room , i have a 557 with 4X magnifier - if not you can get a standard model with 1x6 optic included

shooting is very comfortable , rounds eject forward and to the right , the balance is very good even with optics

the gas selector on the front is handy too in case your ammo need a little more force to cycle

cleaning is different but not anything to write home about its easy to take apart but cleaning the assemblies takes some time

shoots accurate, i and anyone else that shoots it loves it

for prices or more info

Fnforum.net

[Tatsumi67]

I'm not going to say "Dont get it"

but i will say this:

IF YOU DONT HAVE AN AR15 YET, GET ONE.

If you do have an AR15 platform and want something to mess around with then by all means go right ahead and get the FS2000.

I had some time with it HERE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euKEy36NO3g) and I did like it, but the bullpup trigger was sloppy, stiff and it wasnt as accurate as I had hoped. It was easy to hold, but the plastic furniture felt sort of cheap. It felt like a toy basically.

Good, but I'd sooner get an AR15.

Those are my two cents, take it or leave it.

[Microgunner]

Got one, love it. Put an Elcan Digital Day/Night scope on mine. Only complaint I've had was finding a way to just grab it and a place to mount a light. The Monolith Arms fore end solved both these problems for me.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e229/Microgunner/fs2000008.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e229/Microgunner/fs2000004.jpg

[Wulfmann]

Good assessments, what I was hoping for. Thanks all.

Yes, the DR200 is not an AR. What I meant was an AR type gun that has a piston and for 40 cents on the dollar.
It is not a modular AR15, that is true but as a single basic assault gun it is superior.
Reliable beyond any AR, can be fired without ever worrying about build up, accurate blah blah blah.

I love my Les Baer AR-VHB but if my life was on the line I would grab the Daewoo (Of course if my life was on the line and I needed to shoot evil hordes of charging mice at 200 yards one shot one kill, well the LB would be it!!!! LOL

Sending a gun back to anyone for service is a turn off.
I rebuild K98k German Mausers and prefer weapons I can work on even if that just means switching out parts.
The AR15 may be the least of the lot we are discussing of the 4 weapons but the fact I can get parts is a big deal to me and sending guns off is a big turn off.

I will have to think further but all the advise is appreciated each one with valid points

Wulfmann

[Microgunner]

Yes, the DR200 is not an AR. What I meant was an AR type gun that has a piston and for 40 cents on the dollar.
It is not a modular AR15, that is true but as a single basic assault gun it is superior.
Reliable beyond any AR, can be fired without ever worrying about build up, accurate blah blah blah.


I concur. I own a Daewoo K2 with folding stock and find it one of the finest and most reliable NATO rifles I've ever used.

[stubbicatt]

With that Elcan scope in place, how do you open the trapdoor to clear your weapon?

[Tucker 1371]

The gun is relatively light at 8LBs


I don't know about you but 8lbs is a little haevy for my liking. To put it in perspective the US military's recent half hearted search for a new service rifle placed quite a bit of emphasis on reduced weight compared to the 7lb M4. I've never held a FS2000 but it just looks like something I'd fumble around with trying to pick up and find a comfortable shooting position. If you have picked it up and liked it, go for it.
If not and you're dead set on a bullpup consider the STG-556 from MSAR.

If you're not dead set on the bullpup get a Colt M4 style rifle.

If you just absolutely abhor the direct impingement system on most AR15s and will not be persuaded any other way then check out LWRC (those ain't cheap though). Ruger's new SR556 looks promising as well so give it a fair shake.

Still, the direct impingement system isn't a drawback if you just give your gun the TLC it deserves. IMHO the Colt is the best 5.56/.223 Carbine for your buck.

[alistaire]

It wieghs 9 pounds, cost $2000 and fires poodle bullets. For that money I can get a whole bunch of 9 pound M1 Garands each firing real bullets. And I can fire a Garand of either shoulder. :)

[Tucker 1371]

OP: Please, no posts about why 223 is no good.

Sure, he could buy a bunch of M1s, personally that's what I'd do, fix 'em all up and sell them (minus one as a keeper) for a tidy profit.

But the M1 isn't what our OP is after.

Plus if you look at it from a home defense perspective the FS2000 is a FAR better choice than a Garand (donning flame suit now) because with soft point loads it isn't going to go through your target, take a trip around the world and nail you in the arse like the 30-06 will (that may be a bit of an exaggeration :D). And with SP loads the .223 opens up nicely and makes a very nasty wound. Not to mention the FN is much handier inside a house.

Now enough with the caliber wars, geeze.

To the OP: Just take a look at my first post in this thread. Consider each point and give all of the guns I mentioned a fair shake and you should come out confident that you bought the rifle that is right for you.

[Silvanus]

And I can fire a Garand of either shoulder.

The FS2000 will be even more comfortable shooting from your weak side than most conventional rifles (like the M1). The rounds are ejected at the front.

[Bart Noir]

Has anybody had trouble removing the magazines?

I looked at one and could not remove a metal M16 mag, normal new one that they were selling. The salesman really had to tug and wiggle to get it out.

Then I put in the mag that came with the 2000. Again, since I don't like to force other people's guns, I had to had it to the salesman. How had to struggle to remove it.

So do you think this was just one gun that is too tight? Did any of yours have this problem at first?

Bart Noir

[Kmar40]

It wieghs 9 pounds, cost $2000 and fires poodle bullets.Ah yes, those not even original words, mimicking a man who thought wars were still fought with bolt actions and bayonets. We all get senile eventually.

[Wulfmann]

If I wanted a heavier load I would use the 8MM Mauser not the wimpy M1 Garrand pea shooter!!! LOL

8MM 196gr a real man's load!!!

The Garrand only has 8 rounds while the Hakim has 10.

I do have the Hakim as a heavy go to weapon if I thought I needed to shoot through 2-3 guys with body armor.

I am sure the 338 Lapua guys will one up the 8MM and the 50BMG guys will up the 338.
I am betting we have a gunner off an M1A Abrams that can top that and maybe a gunner off an Iowa class battleship. 2700 pound armor piercing round!!! Can a Garrand match that!!!!???????????

The argument has no basis except for a pizzzing contest and mimics Rock/Paper/Scissors.

The reason I asked for no such debate is any opinion is the right one for you but unprovable to anyone else.

Every round has pluses and minuses and there are always situations one is better than the other.

Wulfmann

[hillmillenia]

All that and Your gonna get one because it's a modern design and let's face it, it looks really cool!:cool: I did evaluate one a friend puchased, he's more of a collector than a shooter with seemingly unlimited financial resources. I have had the pleasure to test some very, very nice weapons. I recall catching hell regarding my post of this one. Essentially, the gun is not worth the asking price. It works OK and shoots to POA, and really shoots quite well when shouldered despite the plastic trigger. But it's difficult to get into action from mag insertion (o-ring in magwell requires alot of effort to install mag) and just grabbing the rifle (bullpup) is awkward and not...natural. As said, once the rifle is shouldered it's OK. I have atendency to evaluate a piece on combat use and I would feel disadvantaged having to deal with this one in a real firefight. As I stated at first, you'll likely get one because they really are a neat looking gun and I'd suggest getting the PS90 for the
Stargate effect :D, Seriously, that's alot of money and if you looking to get away from the traditional, check out the Sig556 or the SCAR SA both in 556/223 and much more user friendly, I would personally recommend the tried and trusted AR design. In spite of it's detractors, It is used all over the world and as long as you do your part, It is a damned relible design.

[SPUSCG]

I heard they shoot 2 MOA wih match ammo and have crappy triggers, but hey it looks awesome in Splinter Cell.

[Tomac]

I have personal experience w/2 FS2000's. I found the design ungainly and problematic when trying to attach a taclight. There are several reports of broken charging handles which isn't a good thing when FN won't sell spare parts to us lowly civilians and the rifle is vulnerable to an import ban. Finally, the bolt assy is scary-complex, I've never seen so many springs and levers in a bolt assy before. I ended up going w/the MSAR STG-556 which handles better for me (YMMV), isn't vulnerable to an import ban and spare parts *are* available. This isn't meant to be a bash on FN as I have a PS90 for the wife and 2 FN Five-seveN USG pistols.
Just MHO...
Tomac
FS2000 bolt assy:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofFS2KEvaluation005.jpg
FS2000 & STG-556 side-by-side:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofSTG-566vFS2000002.jpg
One of my STG-556's as currently configured:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/Tomac/ResizeofEotech512002.jpg

[Wulfmann]

I really posted this to learn, cure my ignorance, of this weapon.
The many posters have shared their experiences and that has been very helpful.
FN has a long standing good rep for reliability and quality as do Sig, H&K, Colt blah blah but none are perfect and can make less than their usual quality.

I was also interested in feedback on the feel for it's use.

So far I have been persuaded this is not a weapon I want to have.

I insist I can work on it (without requiring an armorer's training course) and the trigger along with the sticky magazine make this more toy like and not depend on for your life like.

I have bought (and sold them all) various assault type weapons since I bought my first Daewoo in 1996.
I take them to the range, shoot them with an open mind of topping the Daewoo.
To date none have done so.

The AR15 is a great range peace time gun. But, while I do not see an imminent Obamgenden or SHTF I like to think if something happens I can rely on my go to rifle indefinitely. If you think as AR fits that, great, I think the Daewoo does what the AR does but can do it without babying it.

I do like my Les Baer Varmint. It is so accurate and the Jewel trigger is so nice but I must (in my mind) clean it after each use.
The Daewoo gets shot, put in the safe, gets shot over and over and over again with no cleaning at all and it has never not worked ever.

I will wait and see how the SCAR pans out. Right now there is a premium but I am sure that will come down by next year.

Wulfmann

[Tucker 1371]

Well if you're thinking about waiting a year I'd also consider the Bushmaster ACR (Masada). The release date has been pushed back to 2010 and the predicted MSRP has gone up $100 to $1500 but to me it looks better than the SCAR or any other military style rifle out now.

I think the Daewoo does what the AR does but can do it without babying it.

I'd be highly surprised if it shot better groups than a Colt or any other high end AR. And cleaning your gun after a day at the range is considered "babying it" now? I have a friggin cheapo stamped receiver AK that I strip down and clean inside and out every time I get home from the range. Maybe it is unnecessary for an AK but I consider it to just be proper maintenance, like changing the oil in your car. It's just what you should do.

Edit: The whole maintenance and reliability issue with the M16/AR15 family of weapons is WAY (WAY WAY WAY WAY) overblown. I'm not hearing any horror stories from folks I know coming back from the sandbox regarding the M16 so it's obviously doing well enough in a very harsh environment. I think you've been influenced by a lot of the stigma attached to the M16 from it's first days in Vietnam.

[Microgunner]

stubbicatt... With that Elcan scope in place, how do you open the trapdoor to clear your weapon?

The rubber eyepiece pops right off allowing the cover to fully open.

[Microgunner]

It wieghs 9 pounds, cost $2000 and fires poodle bullets. For that money I can get a whole bunch of 9 pound M1 Garands each firing real bullets. And I can fire a Garand of either shoulder.

It weighs 7lbs 9ozs and can be fired from either shoulder since the ejection port is near the muzzle.

[Microgunner]

I looked at one and could not remove a metal M16 mag, normal new one that they were selling. The salesman really had to tug and wiggle to get it out.


It does require a little practice to become proficient at magazine changes because of the rubber dirt gasket in the mag well. This gasket can be removed and the mags will just fall out when you press the release.

[Beachhead123]

Where to start...

FN does sell replacement parts here's a pic of my fs2000 next to a few extra parts [img=http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4346/fs2000.jpg] (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fs2000.jpg) and at least one company makes barrels for it. http://www.hi-desertdog.com/index.php?_a=viewProd&productId=109

The magazine removal isn't bad at all, if you practice the correct way to grab it once or twice.... Or if you really hate it the dust covers can be removed and the magazine will drop free. That being said I've never had any problem or even difficulty at all removing a magazine so for me it's a non-issue.

As far as how complicated the bolt assembly is...eh more than others probably but not so much. The only thing that's difficult about it is putting the switch back on... the rest of it can be done with your eyes closed if you know what your doing. Putting the switch back on isn't difficult so much as it's watching to make sure you don't pinch your fingers or damage the switch.

If something were to break, in a way that you could not fix, FN will warranty it and fix/replace the problem.

It has very little recoil, even for a 223/5.56 you will be back on target very fast for followup shots. Yes it weighs almost 8 pounds...but shoulder it and it feels as light as an m4. With a lot of the weight in the back it makes it feel really light when you shoot it.

As far as accuracy goes, I think that is much more dependent on the shooter, then the ammo, then the platform. If your a terrible shot, even a cheytac won't fix it. Basically it shoots like you would expect from a 223 with a 17" 1/7 barrel, with the right ammo, less than moa at 100 with a good shooter and optics. The backup irons on the fs2000 are just that backups, if you think your going to shoot moa on the backup irons, goodluck.

It's far from perfect but when you compare it to most highend piston AR's the price, the weight, etc... it's comparable.

[Wildalaska]

If all these plastic bullpups and EBRS, starting with the FAMAS and AUG and moving to the FS2000 and HKs and whatevers were worth a crap in the real world instead of being the subject of awe in netmando threads, a real army, ie ours, would use them.

Lets go find some Oz and Brit vets to sing paens of love to their plastic bullpups :p.

Colt 6920 or other Mil spec M4...proven design, high quality, made mostly from metal :)

The others...complex plastic:eek:

WildcarryonAlaska ™

[Tomac]

AUGs have been in "real" military service since the '70's. Unfortunately our military (like many others) suffers from the "not invented here" syndrome and the M16/M4 (yet another "plastic" EBR w/much of its metal being aluminum) w/its many inherent design flaws can hardly be pointed to as the pinnacle of weapons development. I'm sure that if the "perfect" rifle/cartridge combo existed we'd all be using it an debating such important considerations as stock colore... ;)
Tomac

[Wildalaska]

AUGs have been in "real" military service since the '70's.

Where? Saudi Arabia?

WildrealmilitaryAlaska ™

[Tomac]

Austria, Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, New Zealand, Ecuador, Ireland, Luxembourg, Saudi Arabia as you mentioned, Tunisia, Pakistan and even US Customs and Enforcement.
Tomac

[Microgunner]

Hey, I own the AR's, AK's, FAL's and such. Doesn't mean I can't have fun with the FS2000 too. If I only bought firearms I need I'd have to sell a whole lot of guns.

[Wildalaska]

Austria, Argentina, Australia, Bolivia, New Zealand, Ecuador, Ireland, Luxembourg, Saudi Arabia as you mentioned, Tunisia, Pakistan and even US Customs and Enforcement.

None of those are classed as real armies, dude. Real armies are the US (M4s, M16s, M14s), the Izzys, The Russkies and the ROKs. And as to customs, my info is that they have been withdrawn. The last one of those I saw didnt work anyway (we had to fix it).


Where are the Aussie AUG lovers here to chime in

WildaugsarecoolbutnotverypracticalAlaska ™

[Tomac]

None of those are classed as real armies, dude.

If you say so...
Tomac

[alistaire]

I stand corrected about firing from either shoulder. I do like the fact that it comes with it's own toilet seat. (The lid on the back side of the garbage shoot). I also like the fact that it takes two hands to pull out an empty magazine.

[itman]

I do not own one. But I was really into them for sometime. Then I picked one up. I put it right down and sad forget it.

I did not how wide the back of the gun was. Really hard to get my eye inline with the sights.

Well that is me. Maybe you will find if fits you better. I hear people say I'm a fat head all the time. :rolleyes:

[Tucker 1371]

Well if it's just for kicks and giggles I'd say absolutely get it. It looks like, if nothing else, a cool range toy and if you can get past what looks to be some pretty bad ergonomics it might make a great gun.

Personally my first choice in a bullpup will be the AUG... but I'll have an AR, M1A, and (hopefully... pretty please Bushmaster?) an ACR/Masada before I buy that.

[Microgunner]

alistaire...I also like the fact that it takes two hands to pull out an empty magazine.

Wrong again. It only takes one hand to remove the magazine, even with the dirt gasket intact.

[Wildalaska]

If you say so...

I do...the Luxembourg army is not in the dictionary under the definition of projection of military power:p

WildendofthreadriftAlaska ™

[Microgunner]

I do...the Luxembourg army is not in the dictionary under the definition of projection of military power

Hey....them Luxembourgese take thier...ahem....army real serious. The whole country's liable to come over and slap you silly if you're not careful.

[SPUSCG]

(Insert name of bullpup here) = FAIL

[Silvanus]

Quote:
I do...the Luxembourg army is not in the dictionary under the definition of projection of military power

Hey....them Luxembourgese take thier...ahem....army real serious. The whole country's liable to come over and slap you silly if you're not careful.


Hey, don't make fun of the Luxembourg Army. From all the countries on that list, you had to choose mine :( :D But you're right, even I wouldn't consider it a "real" army...

The soldiers I talked to all liked the AUG, though. They've never seen real combat as far as I know, but they say the rifle was very reliable in training, even when dirty (either muddy from crawling through forests or sandy in Afghanistan). It's very accurate too compared to traditional rifles with the same OAL(the only real advantage a bullpup offers). What some soldiers who trained with German and Belgium soldiers (whom they switched weapons with for 1 day) always mention is that they like the large "trigger guard". It makes it easier to crawl with your rifle and to move through thick underbrush and shoot with the rifle resting on a some kind of cover, all without hurting your hands.

Anyway, this thread is not about other bullpup designs, let's keep talking about the FN;)

[Bart Noir]

OK, back to thread......

Following the very conservative approach of WildlyAlaska, we should ask if the local army uses it. So, does the Belgian army use the FN2000? Even for just elite units, like the paratrooper platoon :D

And we should maybe think that they will want the best, since they have been invaded as many times in the last century as anybody. And put up a fight when invaded.

Thanks to those who explained about the O-ring seal on the mag well. I don't know if I would remove that or not. I don't think I will have to make that choice.

Bart Noir
Who is rather excited by the upcoming S&W piston AR model, and wants a Ruger piston AR to S&W piston AR shootoff and field test.

[hillmillenia]

Sheesh it gets abit snappy around here...:(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IA58c3rG40

[Tucker 1371]

If you've already got an AR, AK, and at least one American battle rifle (M1A, Garand) then I say get the FN F2k.

Personally my first choice for "one of them there funny lookin guns" (aka bullpup) is the AUG, it just looks SO much easier to pick up and shoot. But variety is the spice of life, it definitely wouldn't be a boring gun to own, that's for sure.

If you just want a good solid gun get a Colt/Noveske/LMT/S&W/LWRC AR15 or a Sig 556. But if you want something that may not perform as well as the above, but definitely has a large(er) cool/fun factor, go with the F2k.

[Silvanus]

So, does the Belgian army use the FN2000? Even for just elite units, like the paratrooper platoon

Their special forces and paratroopers use it. Both are well known and well respected units.

[Stevie-Ray]

Soon as they come down to $500, I'm gonna grab me one.:D

[SPUSCG]

CRAPPY TRIGGER, poor and awkward reloads, and if a round blows up in the chamber its right under your eye......

I avoid bullpups

[Orion6]

I had the jones for one of these for 2 years. When I finally had the money/means to pick one up, I went to three different shops, each time thinking I'd be coming home with one.

Each time, (remember, I had wanted one since they released them) I couldn't do it. I couldn't part with the money for this particular rifle.

They are neat guns from a great manufacturer, but they do not feel like $2000 guns. If they were more like $1200, I'd have one. I personally don't think they're worth what they are asking for them.