New .25acp's?

[TheNev]

Hey guys, got a bit of a predicament here.

i got the bug for a .25 (don't ask me why). I currently have a Beretta 21a in
.22lr. I like it well enough, and it's been pretty reliable but I want a bigger .22 for plinking and possibly squirrel hunting. I'll probably go with a revolver.

Should I sell or trade the Bobcat and get a .25? Or Just keep it and get a .25 anyway? If I got a .22 wheelgun, I probably wouldn't shoot the beretta anymore.

Which brings me to .25's. Who makes NEW .25's these days? Is Beretta and Taurus it? I ask for new because there are a total of 2 pawn shops near me, and they don't have much for guns. If they have anything its 9/40/45 flavors of your plastic-fantastic whatevers. Nothing fun.

For the record, this .25 will NOT be for CC. I have a PPK/S for that, and thinking of a Seecamp .32 or NAA Guardian in .32 for warm weather pocket carry.

Been reading old posts and read 6 pages worth of stuff about how anemic and worthless .25's are blah blah blah I dont care. If that's all you have to say, don't post. I don't care if you heard your friends uncles buddy at a gunstore heard someone talk about getting shot with it and it ****** him off. I don't care. I just want one.

[PSP]

Which brings me to .25's. Who makes NEW .25's these days?

Precision Small Arms makes the PSA-25 a Baby Browning clone.

http://www.precisionsmallarms.com/

[liberty1]

I don't know of any others. I would probably just go by the Beretta as you already have one and they are not terribly expensive.

[plom]

I recently got this one

http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idz=1


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359657

don't expect to hit a squirrel with a 25 ACP, since accuracy is very unpredictable behond 15 yards.
For the 22 LR you can get a Ruger SP 101, a smith and wesson 617 or a taurus revolver.

[45_Shooter]

Very few manufacturers make .25's these days because .22LR is a hotter round (more energy) and most likely more effective. Not to mention the huge price differerence between the ammunition.

[TheNev]

I recently got this one

http://www.czub.cz/index.php?p=32&idz=1


http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=359657

don't expect to hit a squirrel with a 25 ACP, since accuracy is very unpredictable behond 15 yards.
For the 22 LR you can get a Ruger SP 101, a smith and wesson 617 or a taurus revolver.

I thought we couldn't get the 92 in the States? If I could I'd be all over that. I love my CZ's.

Also, the .25 wouldn't be for squirrel hunting. I would buy a .22 revolver for that to go along with my Nylon 66.

[TheNev]

Very few manufacturers make .25's these days because .22LR is a hotter round (more energy) and most likely more effective. Not to mention the huge price differerence between the ammunition.

From what I've read, the .25 and a .22lr are ballistically the same out of short barrelled pistols.

[45_Shooter]

From what I've read, the .25 and a .22lr are ballistically the same out of short barrelled pistols.

That's possible when very short barrels are considered - I've never looked that far into it. I just know alot of .22LR loads surpass .25 ACP loads as far as advertised numbers are concerned, but in the .22's case it may be rifle length barrel velocities being quoted. I think CCI Stingers were one of the loads mentioned before as being particularly well suite to self defense.

[knight0334]

I've got a Beretta Bobcat 21 25ACP that I couldn't be much happier with. When I have to carry under deep concealment conditions(work), its the tool of choice for me.

It shoots great and is pretty accurate for rudimentary sights. It not having an extractor kinda unnerves me, but has yet to fail to eject an empty. It is a tad heavy and bulky for such a gun, but the quality and features makes up for that.

[Delaware_Dan]

I thought we couldn't get the 92 in the States? If I could I'd be all over that. I love my CZ's.


You can't, plom is from Europe

[TheNev]

Ok then, if my choices are the Beretta 21a or the Taurus PT25, I'll go with the Beretta and sell my 21a .22.

[heyjoe]

A seecamp 25 would be a nice investment.

[darkgael]

Last summer, I sat down one day and chrono'd some .22s from a S&W 317 with a two inch barrel and a .25 ACP Baby Browning clone (a Bernardelli) with a two inch barrel. They were essentially the same ballistically. If anything, the .25 had the edge by about 10% energywise compared to most of the .22 ammo. The hotter .22s were about the same as the .25 - 65 ft.lbs. In an semiauto, the .22s might gain a bit but would suffer in the reliability area (I had a Beretta 21 that I gave away because it could not be depended on at all ever. The little .25 has NEVER failed to function)
Pete

[michael t]

Beretta are the best in 25 autos in todays world I have 3 The 2 I shoot have been relieable as can be. Other one is a old made in Italy 950BS (no thumb safety like American models ) never fired I just keep it in the box with papers Some day I will shoot it maybe. Beretta says safe to carry loaded and thumb cock Gee how the world has changed from old days I can carry condition 2 and cock when needed. :eek:

[James K]

I always liked the .25, the Colt Model 1908 being a favorite. But today, there are guns in 9mmP that are not much bigger, so the reason for the little .25's has sort of gone away.

Jim

[wun_8_seven]

years ago i shot my self with an anemic 25 auto(BAUER) through the leg just above my right knee, it went clean through bone and muscle and exited out the back and i'm a big boy.

[Terry A]

wun_8_seven years ago i shot my self with an anemic 25 auto(BAUER) through the leg just above my right knee, it went clean through bone and muscle and exited out the back and i'm a big boy.

Wow, that honestly surprises me that it got that much penetration. I never thought much of the .25, but I know I would'nt want to be shot with one either....
Glad you're OK wun.

[NWCP]

I have a Beretta 950BS. As .25ACP pocket pistols go it's been great. It's very well made. It has never failed to fire and the tip up barrel makes unloading a breeze, as long as you remember to place a hand over the chamber to keep from launching a live round halfway across the room. :D These days I carry a Kahr PM9 for deep concealment. There was a time though that the little Beretta served as a pocket pistol. While not what you would call a man stopper I wouldn't want to get shot with one. Too bad you're looking for a new gun. Some of the old German 6.35mm (.25ACP) pistols were really neat and fun to shoot. The ammo is pretty expensive these days so I don't take the Beretta to the range much anymore. It's cheaper to shoot 9mm.

[Skan21]

The only problem I can see is that in my area, it's impossible to find .25 ammo anywhere. So I never bought one. Even .380 ammo is hard to find right now.

[Piper Cub]

Find a used Bauer .25

[MEATSAW]

I know fellow who was shot nearly point-blank with a .25ACP right behind the ear while he was at a red-light. It never penetrated the skull but was deflected downwards and stopped near the spine. My friend easily survived (this sounds crass but the truth). He has lived with that bullet in his neck for about 15 years now, but just had it removed. While it may be cool to just say you have one, there are countless reports of the .25 auto being extremely weak to the point of wondering why it is still even produced...

[TheNev]

Went to my closest gun shop yesterday after work and they have a blued .25 Bobcat for $309. Is that a decent price? I paid $295 for my stainless .22 Bobcat about 6 months ago or so.

[fast-eddie]

I've been thinking of getting a .25 as well. I have my Taurus 94 now as a plinker, my PT22 is collecting dust(or my GF's) .

[TheNev]

i know fellow who was shot nearly point-blank with a .25ACP right behind the ear while he was at a red-light. It never penetrated the skull but was deflected downwards and stopped near the spine. My friend easily survived (this sounds crass but the truth). He has lived with that bullet in his neck for about 15 years now, but just had it removed. While it may be cool to just say you have one, there are countless reports of the .25 auto being extremely weak to the point of wondering why it is still even produced...
Read my original post please.

[DrLaw]

My great, great Uncle Bob knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy who heard a guy say that in World War 1, the Graf Zepplin was downed by a shot from a French Officer using his .25 La Francais Officer's Model pistol with an over-the-shoulder in the mirror shot as he was piloting his Spad past the Zepplin from a mile away. The shot bounced off the pilots' head, giving him a headache and causing him to steer the zepplin into the ground. :D:eek::rolleyes:

But what I really came here to say was, why look for new? Why not try one of the old and proved designs, like the Colt, Browning, Ortgies or something else off the wall? (but then, I like C & R's)

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[TheNev]

Haha, that was pretty good Dr. Law.

Also in my original post, not too many pawn shops around here, and what they do have...I dont want.

I'm sure I could just be patient and wait for something to come along, but I'm not patient. I also really don't like sending CC info online, and having stuff shipped. I'd rather walk into a store, pay, and walk out with my item.

[MEATSAW]

My apologies for my post.

[TheNev]

My apologies for my post.

No problems :D

[kymasabe]

I was asking the same question a few years ago and ended up buying 22LR instead. There were no energy or stopping power advantages to the .25cal round and 22LR is MUCH cheaper. I ended up buying a Taurus PT-22, was a little ammo picky until I found the "right" round that the gun liked. Was CCI Velocitors that made that little gun run GREAT !!

[alistaire]

.25 ACP: When 5.7 is not enough. :)

[gator1gear]

TheNev, I thought I was the only one. I went to Aventure Outdoors not too long ago ,and fell in love with a .25 pocket gun. It was listed as a CZ635:confused: It was a 1950 model CZ1945, the gun the CZ92 evolved into. The finish is horrible,but for some reason i find that endearing on this old gun. After some cleaning it shoots like a dream! I WANT MORE! I have actually been buying ammo at the local Wal-Mart:eek: Please post a review if you get the Beretta. I know you wanted info on NEW .25s, I posted, because after hearing all the good about the Berettas, I want one too.

[TheNev]

Gator1gear: will do.

I decided to hang on to the .22 Bobcat and get myself the .25 also. Again, If I stop in a pawn shop or at a gunshow and I see a Baby Browning or any of the other old .25 vest pocket pistols, I'll snatch it up.

[gator1gear]

You won't regret it. I really like mine, if you get an older one, it's like rescuing one from the shelter:D.

[Microgunner]

The tip up barrel Berettas have no extractor and rely entirely on recoil energy to push the empty cartridge out of the chamber. A dirty chamber will stop these pistols in their tracks making them completely unsuitable for combat of any sort. Their only value is as a curiosity piece.

[CzCasull]

DrLaw knows what he's talking about.

[TheNev]

The tip up barrel Berettas have no extractor and rely entirely on recoil energy to push the empty cartridge out of the chamber. A dirty chamber will stop these pistols in their tracks making them completely unsuitable for combat of any sort. Their only value is as a curiosity piece.

:confused: Maybe you missed the part where I said I had a Beretta Bobcat 21A in .22lr. I'm fully aware of how they work. I've also read reviews from people that own the .25 model that they have had no FTE's. I have also had extremely minimal FTE's from my .22

[amd6547]

My 21a 25 works perfectly without an extractor...I have never fired more than 50rds at a time, and clean it well afterwords. I have no doubt it will work when I need it.
In fact, I bought a French Unique 22 pistol cheap after I pointed out that it's extractor was missing...The seller seemed genuinely surprised and unaware, said he had shot hundreds of rounds without a problem. I intended to find the extractor for it, but went ahead and shot anyway. It works perfectly, and I will put 100 to 200 rounds through it at a time.

[Chesster]

The tip up barrel Berettas have no extractor and rely entirely on recoil energy to push the empty cartridge out of the chamber. A dirty chamber will stop these pistols in their tracks making them completely unsuitable for combat of any sort. Their only value is as a curiosity piece.


A .25 is possibly a fourth line of defense but hardly combat worthy. I have several configurations of the Beretta 950, an M-20, and a 21A. A Baby Browning and a some clones, PSP/Fraser/Bauer. A Colt JR and an FIE clone. All novelties, nice little plinkers. The only ones I would even consider as a BUG are the 950s which have proven to be super reliable.

[TheNev]

Ok guys, AGAIN I ask you to PLEASE read my original post before you make a comment.

-THIS IS NOT A CC GUN!
-THIS IS NOT FOR HUNTING!
-THE COMPARISONS TO A .22 DONT MATTER.


Thanks.

[Chesster]

Of current production guns, the Beretta 21A is better than most although a bit bulky for a .25

[TheNev]

Alright ladies and gentlemen, I just scored pretty big. Stopped in Cabela's on the way home from work to look for .38spcl or .357mag to head to the range this week and test my new Taurus out, and I came across a Baby Browning.

They wanted $400 for it, but I talked them down to $370. I had my uncle look up some prices for me, and these seem to go $300 to $500. I think I did pretty good. The gun is easily 95%, just a few wear marks on the bluing. I'll have pics up as soon as I can find my SD adapter amongs all my clutter from moving. Guess I'm getting rid of my Bobcat after all.

I'm excited! Now to find ammo... :(

EDIT: I forgot to ask, how do you tear this thing down? Also, the serial # is 330XXX can someone direct me to where I can find out when it was made?

[Bill DeShivs]

You did well. The Baby Browning and the Beretta 950 (NOT the 21!) are the benchmark .25s.
Pull the slide back until the safety engages the first notch in the slide. Remove the magazine. Turn the barrel 45 degrees. Hold the slide while releasing the safety. Slide comes off forward. Turn the barrel back, and it slides out the end of the slide.

[TheNev]

Thanks for the help. I managed to figure it out myself a little while ago. I forgot to mention that the Browning also came with the original case and magazine. I talked to the guy in the gun library, and he told me he put the gun in the case about 5 hours prior to me buying it. Talk about getting lucky!
I traced the serial number to 1966.

I can't wait to shoot this thing!

[DrLaw]

DrLaw knows what he's talking about.

I do??? :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool::D

[TheNev]

Sorry it took so long, but here's some pics. Sorry about the quality, my cell is all I got.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/TheNev/0601091802-00.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/TheNev/0601091802-02.jpg

[DrLaw]

Nice find!

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[CANIS]

I have a little pearl-handled Bauer .25

It is surprisingly accurate for its size. I can easily drill out the center of a target at 15 yards all day long. As fast as I can pull the trigger, it'll dump all rounds where I would like them to go.

I just like the little bugger. So small and easy to carry even in dress slacks.
No matter how small they make the .32, .380. etc. I doubt they will ever be able to get one as small as a little Bauer/Baby Browning/Bernardelli .25.

They are little miracles of design and function. I think 6 or 7 rounds in rapid fire would certainly change someone's mind.

Good gun!

[HisSoldier]

You did well, the Baby Browning is all steel, and though only a few of us care anymore most .25's are half aluminum nowdays, which I won't tolerate.

I have a Bauer and a PSP Baby Browning, wonderful guns, the PSP especially, though I did have to buy a steel trigger and mag release to replace the plastic parts.

These are toys for me, fun guns. I also have two Astra cubs that are pretty accurate, one in .22 short and one in .25. Also a DUO in .25, a well made solid gun.

But for elephants you will want something larger. ;)

I think they call them mouse guns because they are totally deadly against mice.

Imagine the excuse you'd have to come up with to explain this to your big gun friends;
http://retardzone.com/2008/03/05/worlds-smallest-handgun-only-2-inches-long/

Or this;
http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=36442

Or the Menz Liliput;
http://www.auctionarms.com/closed/printitem.cfm?itemnum=5985323


But my favorite serious self defense mouse gun, the Kolibri;
http://www.notoriouslyconservative.com/2009/05/hummingbid-kolibri-pistol.html

[Bill DeShivs]

Browning did make a lightweight, alloy framed version of the "Baby." They are the pinnacle of the design, and they hold up just fine.

[raftman]

Congrats. That is one sweet pistol. I'd want one of that sort, were ammo not pricey and hard to find. Already got a gun that I think is too expensive to shoot most of the time.

[Locoweed]

Investigated a case where a guy had been shot with a .25 acp. The bullet entered his right buttock and came out just above the knee. The doctor used a thing like a cleaning rod with a patch soaked full of Betadine on the end and ran it the length of the wound channel. Man, did that guy ever holler. Another case of two guys playing grab-a$$ with a Raven .25 acp when it discharged, hitting one of the guys in the heart. He was dead in less than a minute. I later owned the gun but foolishly sold it in a weak moment.

[TheNev]

Just want to keep you guys updated.

I went the the range last week to make sure all 3 of my newest guns functioned correctly. They all did, btw.

That little Browning is something else. Accurate enough for point'n'shoot. More recoil than I was expecting. It's a neat little gun, for sure. A couple times the web of my hand rode up under the slide. No slide bite here, more like a slide kiss.

I love this little thing.

[HisSoldier]

Browning did make a lightweight, alloy framed version of the "Baby." They are the pinnacle of the design, and they hold up just fine.

No sense trying to enlighten anyone who thinks aluminum is a replacement for steel. Not for me thanks.

[Chesster]

No sense trying to enlighten anyone who thinks aluminum is a replacement for steel. Not for me thanks.

Next thang you know, some idiot will think you can use polymer instead of steel!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Doc TH]

All semiauto handguns rely upon the recoill of the cartridge case for rearward slide movement. The extractor is not critical for cycling the action; it is necesary for extraction of an unfired round.
I have a 21A in .22LR caliber and in more than 20 years it has never failed to eject a fired case.

[Bill DeShivs]

I consider myself, and the aluminum-framed guns to be pretty "enlightened."
:D

[HisSoldier]

I'm enlightened enough to know that steel has properties that make aluminum look very bad when using the same sectional area. Bending strength, wear resistance, hardness, yield strength, impact strength, thermal expansion, to name a few. Aluminum at it's best (70 series) is a poor substitute for a good alloy steel like 4140, or even stainless alloys like 416 and 17-4 PH.

There is no sense arguing about it, I know everyone knows intuitively that aluminum is not a good substitute for steel in engineering properties with the sole exception of weight.

If anyone doesn't acknowledge the obvious superiority of steel over aluminum it is almost certain that they have an agenda beyond choosing the best materials. (Weight, primarily)
It would be amusing to run an endurance test of one of the rare Baby Brownings with an aluminum frame against the more common steel framed ones. Yeah, they hold up, with the use most people give them. :D

My enlightenment is based on a lifetime in the metals trades, replacing poor materials for materials that will out last and outperform OEM materials.

If we didn't deliver we would have been out of business a long time ago. I know what I'm talking about.

[jimacp]

BE CAREFUL!! You could put an eye out with that thing!:D

Actually, I understand why you wanted one. I have always had a thing for small guns as long as they are well made, even if the caliber isn't very practical. Think I'll be on the lookout for one like yours now. See what you did!

[litesong]

meatsaw wrote:
I know fellow who was shot nearly point-blank with a .25ACP right behind the ear while he was at a red-light. It never penetrated the skull but was deflected downwards and stopped near the spine. My friend easily survived (this sounds crass but the truth). He has lived with that bullet in his neck for about 15 years now, but just had it removed. While it may be cool to just say you have one, there are countless reports of the .25 auto being extremely weak to the point of wondering why it is still even produced...
=========================
litesong wrote:
The 25 ACP pistol becomes a different animal when handloaded. Factory loads are loaded sometimes to less than 50fpe in deference to 'many of the junk 25 autos'. Many people consider the 25 auto Raven to be junk. Handloaders have developed superb (very hot) loads for the 25 ACP, tho. My initial low power development handloads were inaccurate, unreliable & as many here have said, weak-kneed. As I approached max. reloads AND PAST THEM, my two Ravens became progressively very accurate, very reliable & powerful. Both my Ravens loved the hot loads that approach 90+fpe. Unique powder worked superbly, tho Bullseye was not good.

I used to shoot the Beeman pellet guns with muzzle velocities of 800 f/s. Always thought, if I accidently shot someone in the neck with a pellet, the person would be in trouble (& not just if a vein was hit). The hot loaded 25 ACP has almost 7 times the pellet guns energy! Two 25ACP shots to the face & neck would be like 13 or 14 pellets from the air rifle. Any shooting victim would be in very bad condition or no condition at all because they would be dead. Few 90 fpe bullets will bounce off anyone's skull. The one's that might, will transfer a lot of death dealing energy to the skull. With both my Ravens in my pocket, I felt.....protected.

Accuracy----I often set up 22 caliber empties & tho I wasn't a great offhand shot, at 5 yards distance, I could hit the empties about half the time, often sending them spinning & whirring off into the distance.

The guys at the gravel pits always wanted to know about my Ravens when they heard their authoritative barks & watched bottle caps & .22 empties whir away into the distance.