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View Full Version : Purchasing Firearms; Are we asking to be Registered?


Paul Revere
April 11, 2000, 04:17 PM
Ponder this...

Most of us by now realize that buying a firearm through a FFL dealer insures that that firearm gets registered. Fill out the 4473, submit to the NICS, boom....paper trail equals registration. Is it possible that some of us are even proud to participate in this registration scheme? Or is it just out of necessity? Do we just sit back then and hold our breath and hope we never get that dreaded knock on our door? Knowing all the while that your private property (firearms) records are open for federal inspections?

This is not a topic about avoidance of information on one's background, nor is it a means in which we purposefully thwart the illegal "registration" process of 4473/NICS (hint hint).

It wasn't until I sat on the seller's side of the table at a gun show did I realize that many would-be gunowners have to purchase their firearms from established FFL dealers, because those dealers accept CREDIT CARDS! It became clearly obvious after a few hours of talking guns with several show patrons, that people just aren't prepared to pay CASH when they seek out a new/used/or first firearm at gun shows. Probably less than 1% of those patrons carry enough cash when they walk through those doors, to buy what they set out to find.

Now this may already be obvious to most of you, but doesn't the inability to pay cash for a firearm FORCE us to register them by having to purchase them through an established FFL? Everyone knows (or should know) that the records of any FFL are open to the inspection of the BATF anytime they want. Many of us deduct by reasoning and "logic" that the feds couldn't possibly have our purchases "registered" because the NICS check only tells what type of firearm it is (long gun or hand gun, etc.)...wrong!

Imagine now that you seek to buy a hunting knife. And buying one from a dealer requires you to fill out a federal form and submit to a federal background check. Would you still buy your hunting knives at "authorized knife dealers"? Or would you seek out someone who sells those knives without the invasion of your privacy? Forget about whether you have anything to hide or not, that isn't the point here.

Realistically, our "arms" (guns and knives) are protected by the 2nd Amendment of our Bill of Rights. So why are we allowing ourselves to submit to this tyranny? Because we can't afford to pay CASH???

How much is freedom worth?

Woodman
April 11, 2000, 05:37 PM
If the current law requiring a 4473 be kept on file by the selling FFL is not repealed, how are we going to obtain new arms without entering inventory into our bound book and filling out the 4473? The NICS does not receive the serial number on a purchase and unless the flanking tactic is to drive all FFLs out of business, the 4473 stays in the possession of the FFL. Woodman

alan
April 11, 2000, 06:43 PM
Woodman:

You wrote:

If the current law requiring a 4473 be kept on file by the selling FFL is not repealed, how are we going to obtain new arms without entering inventory into our bound book and filling out the 4473? The NICS does not receive the serial number on a purchase and unless the flanking tactic is to drive all FFLs out of business, the 4473 stays in the possession of the FFL. Woodman

The 4473's "stay in the possession of the FFL" only so long as he/she remains in business. Aside from this, they are "subject to inspection", dealer records that is, and the 4473's are part of "dealer records".

EQUALIZER
April 11, 2000, 06:59 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an "instant check" IS immediate registration. OOOppps! I just remembered. According to an organizational agreement, we are assured that those records are not seen by gvt agencies, and that they are destroyed by ???? so many days. I guess its a good thing that I can trust all parties involved on that one.
When I went to make a purchase a while back, the dealer even required that I give him my social security number....not that I'll ever see any of the money that they took for SS, but it sure makes a great ID # for registration and eventual confiscation.

Those 4473s are also lists for possible citizen disarmament. Of course it isn't as conveniently accessed as the NIC, or my state's CC permission slip database, but it'll do when the dealer retires or is required to turn in that bound book for seizure. I don't know what dealers that I could trust to not put the info accessed through credit card purchases of used guns into that little hit list they call the bound book.

Friends, I don't know of any way to get around the purchase of a new grip frame or gun w/out giving the info to the leaders who enforce the 1968 Nazi laws. Wish that I did... [email protected] (http://[email protected])

robert

------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ

dZ
April 11, 2000, 08:43 PM
in Maryland it is a felony to buy a handgun and not go though an FFL. No private sales.


dZ

EQUALIZER
April 11, 2000, 09:15 PM
dZ,

Are you talking about new or used? I think that's the case for new guns everywhere because its a fed law. As for a flea market or personal private sale, that's not the case YET here. Is the Md law state private sales of used weapons?

robert

------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ

Valdez
April 11, 2000, 09:35 PM
I don't know about Maryland but I know that California wants its subjects to go through a FFL holder to even transfer firearms within a family, as from father to son.

These are laws that are essentially unenforceable but they probably can come back, in rare cases, to bite the ignorant.

Don Gwinn
April 11, 2000, 09:54 PM
In Illinois you can buy from a private citizen, but he has to keep records of the sale (to be legal.) I think they still require the seller to keep the records 10 years. I think you also have to use an FFL to do the actual transfer at gunshows but I wouldn't swear to it, to allow the background check and waiting period to be done.

Mr.X
April 12, 2000, 01:38 AM
The last gun show I went to...was ALL dealers.....save for three guys who were selling bolt action long guns.

Paul Revere
April 12, 2000, 09:41 AM
If you want to avoid the paper trail (and YES you are instantly registered when you do a NICS), you just have to be a bit more creative. It doesn't matter whether you're looking for a new gun or used one, if you devote a little time to your search, you WILL find what you're looking for from another private individual. But you have to carry enough CASH in your pocket to make a deal happen. Many times, more expensive items can be purchased at huge discounts to the prevailing market prices, because you'll be one of the very few people carrying enough CASH to make that sale happen. Normally, you won't even have anyone else competing against that item, but you have to keep your eyes peeled and be aggressive when you see something you want. Also, it is absolutely imparative that you know the current market values of items you're interested in (a Blue Book is great for most things, a current Gun List, or even a review of www.gunsamerica.com (http://www.gunsamerica.com) will help tremendously).

Gwinn:

Private table holders at Illinois gun shows are required to follow Illinois state laws when selling a firearm. That means some type of receipt with the make/caliber/serial number, the buyer's/seller's name/FOID#, and the waiting period (72hrs for handguns & 24hrs for long guns). This record is to be kept by the seller for ten (10) years. But NO 4473/NICS applies to these sales whatsoever. Hence no paper trail equals no registration.

Some show patrons avoid the waiting period business altogether when they purchase from other patrons. Common sense should prevail in such transactions however. It's good to get/give a receipt with the aforementioned information for one's personal records.

Many (most) other states don't require any of these silly unconstitutional requirements of private individual sales at gun shows or from your home. Those states provide the most freedom from the dreaded paper trail. Again, its all about how much you want to remain free, and outside the "system".

Additionally, once you've gotten this concept down, it's probably a good idea to get rid of those FFL purchased items immediately, but keep a record of whom you sold them to. If you purchased those items from an FFL more than ten years ago, you may not have to be as concerned, as those you bought recently.

To the lurkers and feds reading this...

THIS is the reason the government wants ALL (private) sales at gun shows run through their registration scheme known as 4473/NICS. It drives them crazy knowing how successful their illegal registration scheme is going with the manipulated and intimidated FFLs, but those pesky private sales keep avoiding their yokes of enslavement.

Guns should be no different than knives, or hammers, or socket wrenches, or books, or antiques. Those of us who are paying attention to your infringements are not going to play by "your" rules. For information on OUR rules, pick up a copy of the United States Constitution and refresh yourself. It still applies today, irregardless of your silly utopian agenda!

k in AR
April 12, 2000, 10:07 AM
Better check again, isn't no protection there.

The government at this very time is trying to collect ALL information for the last 3 years for a "data base", however that DB won't be used in violation of the congressional passed law...

Like DUHH, why would you make a data base you can't (or won't) use??

scud
April 12, 2000, 10:58 AM
Paul:

I absolutely agree, there is no need to leave a trail that could come back to haunt you later.

On a side note I checked out the New American site, it's pretty good. Thanks for the link. I saw this one the other day - it is a very good site dealing with the NWO ect. I think you'll like it - http://www.kenraggio.com

larry_minn
April 13, 2000, 12:50 AM
I have wondered.... When the ATF checks a FFLs records couldn't they have a scanner in their case and copy all the forms onto computer right there???
I remember the movie Red Dawn. The Russians "was a few yrs back" went to gun dealers and got the 4473s to round up all the guns.
Had a local dealer promice he would burn them before he gave them up. He quit when the ATF raised the heat and guess what??? He sent them all in. I don't really care but he should have kept his mouth shut.

Jordan
April 13, 2000, 02:13 AM
PR: Good topic and some good points.

I am a young man and I remember, years ago, folks saying, "When they start registering guns, that's where I'll draw the line and start fighting (Revolution)."
More recently, "When private sales are banned, that's where I'll draw the line and start fighting."
Well, here we are.
And since fighting means we might miss the ball game this weekend we BACKPEDDLE and say "it's not *really* registration.. besides how 'bout if we just VOTE instead... that seems to be working out pretty well, eh?"
I'm ashamed to be associated with this 80mil strong fraternity who parrot such lines as "..the teeth of the Constitution." Teeth of my @$$!

Good point on the credit card thing... no real mystery though. The type of person who buries their head concerning 4473/NICS infringement is probably the type of person who is a slave to credit. OTOH, the type consciencious enough to care is the type to see the value of paying in cash/check/money order.

[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited April 13, 2000).]

Dennis
April 13, 2000, 04:36 AM
Gun owners and self-proclaimed Constitutional supporters have no legitimate complaints. All of the infringements we complain about were implemented by the two major parties we've voted for and continue to vote for.

We vote Republican to avoid the tyranny of the Democrats. Result? We get the slow tyranny of the Republicans. The end result will be the same - private ownership of firearms will become so difficult and expensive that most of us will turn them in - regardless of our loud-mouthed promises to the contrary. When the Jack-Booted Thugs appear at your home, you will be docile or dead.

Gun owners talk big but if and when we vote, we vote like cowards.

By giving the Republicans our continuing support, we support the lesser of two gun control agendas. Like it or not, it IS that simple.

You don't bring about change by perpetuating the status quo.

I wish I had the money to back the following bet:

Regardless of who becomes President, I'll give you fifty bucks for every gun control law which is repealed. You give me TEN bucks for every additional gun control infringement (law, directive, or policy) which is implemented or strengthened.

I soon could retire.

------------------
Either you believe in the Second Amendment or you don't.
Stick it to 'em! RKBA!



[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited April 13, 2000).]

Woodman
April 13, 2000, 07:24 AM
Dennis, I would like to get in on your bet. You are on target. If we think we are going to repeal the 4473 requirements, or any of the other freedom restricting laws on the books, we have got to get actively involved in the local political process NOW. Policy filters up from the local level; although very slowly. One of Klinton's favorite lines of late is "Don't let perfection become the enemy of good". Don't let the weasels in your local party unit keep you from working your way into it. Big problem with this is that it takes committment. You will have to spend a couple of hours a month and put up with a bunch of grief from the local politicos that do not want you in their club. It is not a quick fix, but we have a better chance to win this way than by complaining among ourselves or fantasizing about "drawing a line in the sand". Woodman

Paul Revere
April 13, 2000, 08:38 AM
If you do any amount of studying about where the Globalist bankers are taking us, you'll already know what danger we're in as gunowners. We can see it on the horizon now, and it's simply just a matter of time before it's fully implemented. I'm talking about a "cash-less" economy. I'm talking about ALL transactions being done through electronic means. This is ultimately assumed to be done with some type of implanted chip which is read by scanning devices. Yes, a chip implanted under your skin! Intel was "given" something like $500Mil in 1995 to begin research and development on such a chip. Now, other companies are on the bandwagon including Advanced Digital Systems, Inc. (ADSX for you investors) for one.

This electronic economy will make cash not only obsolete, but ILLEGAL to use. One of the purposes of a cashless economy is to centralize the profitability of the Global monopoly...to eliminate competition, and eliminate "black markets". So how does that affect gunowners? Tell me you haven't already guessed it? Exactly, no more private sales of firearms! This could possibly be the thing that eliminates the ability to purchase firearms, ammunition, and firearm related goods/services altogether. Once cash is made obsolete and illegal, how else will you be able to buy more firearms/ammunition? The bankers will control EVERYTHING, including the decisions of what you can and cannot buy. Think it sounds crazy? It's already in process, just look around you.

The Treasury has already figured out how to locate all the currency in circulation by issuing the new bills with a magnetic strip device pressed between the paper layers (hold it up to the light...see the strip?). And remember, the Federal Reserve Notes are worthless pieces of paper, only symbolizing "money" because the government says we have to treat it like money. If cash becomes obsolete, what could hoards of cash buy anyway? Exactly! Nothing!

Now, how about creating alot of work for the feds when and if they ever have enough balls to come door to door. Sell your FFL purchased firearms immediately to another private individual using the government's phoney money. You may want to keep a note of whom you sold the pieces to. Chances are, by the time those balls get big enough to do a door to door, those pieces will have been sold again, maybe 2 or 3 more times. Now what? Well, you already guessed that. You're going to be replacing all of your sold FFL registered pieces with pieces you've bought from other individuals. Pieces which DO NOT have a paper trail, at least in terms of a federally controlled paper trail. Get the picture? Private sales of firearms in the future will be made by "trading" between individuals...trading un-traceable pieces of nothingness.

The more control we give our government, the more freedom they take from us. Interesting how that all works, isn't it? If you are saying this can't all happen in America, you'll need to dig your head out of the sand. How soon is all this going to happen? Does that really matter? What about your children's world? Where will freedom be for them? What are you waiting for...get moving!

dZ
April 13, 2000, 10:08 AM
http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/regulate.txt

Sub-Section 443A. Gun Shows - Sale, Trade, or Transfer of
Regulated Firearms

(A) Definitions - (1) In this section the following words
have the meanings indicated.

(2) "Gun Show" means an organized gathering open to the
public at which any firearm is displayed.

(3) "Regulated Firearm" means any firearm whose sale or
transfer is subject to the provisions of section 442 of this
article.

(4) "Superintendent" means the Superintendent of the
Maryland State Police or the Superintendent's designee.

(j) Notification of completed transaction; permanent record
of sales and transfers. -Any dealer who sells or transfers a
pistol or revolver in compliance with this subtitle shall forward
a copy of the written notification of such completed transaction,
within seven days from the date of delivery of the said pistol or
revolver, to the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police, whose
duty it shall be to maintain a permanent record of all such
completed sales and transfers of pistols and revolvers in the
State. The notifications shall contain an identifying description
of the pistol or revolver sold or transferred including its
caliber, make, model, manufacturer's serial number, if any, and any
other special or peculiar characteristics or marking by which the
said pistol or revolver may be identified.

(B) Temporary transfer permit - (1) (i) A person who
displays a regulated firearm for sale or transfer from a table or
fixed display at a gun show shall first obtain a temporary transfer
permit from the Superintendent.
(ii) The cost of an initial temporary transfer
permit each calendar year is $10.
(iii) An additional temporary transfer permit during
the same calendar year shall be issued without charge.
(iv) A person may not receive more than five
temporary transfer permits during a single calendar year.
(v) A temporary transfer permit shall be clearly
labeled "temporary" and shall include the statement "this is not a
license to engage in the business of selling firearms."
(vi) The application for a temporary transfer permit
shall contain that information necessary for the Superintendent to
conduct a computer background investigation.
(vii) Every application for a temporary transfer
permit shall bear the following statement: "Any false information
supplied or statement made in this application is a crime which may
be punished by imprisonment for a period of not more than 3 years
or a fine of not more than $5,000 or both."

(2) (i) The Superintendent shall conduct an
investigation to determine the truth or falsity of the information
supplied, and the statements made in the application for a
temporary transfer permit.
(ii) If there is no reason to disapprove the
application for a temporary transfer permit, the Superintendent
shall issue the permit within 7 days of the date of application.

(3) The Superintendent shall forward written
notification of the disapproval to the applicant, if it is
determined that:
(i) The application is improperly completed;
(ii) Any false information has been supplied; or
(iii) A false statement has been made.

(4) The temporary transfer permit shall be placed in
public view as part of any display.

(5) Any person who holds a valid pistol and revolver
dealer's license issued under section 443 of this article is exempt
from the requirements of this subsection.

(C) Any sale or transfer of a regulated firearm from a table
or a fixed display at a gun show shall be governed by the
provisions of section 442 of this article.

(D) Any person who, in any calendar year, displays a
regulated firearm for sale, trade, or transfer at more than five
gun shows shall comply with section 443 of this article.

Sub-Section 443 Pistol and Revolver Dealer's License

(a) Required. -No person shall engage in the business of
selling pistols or revolvers unless he lawfully possesses and
conspicuously displays at his place of business, in addition to any
other license required by law, a pistol and revolver dealer's
license issued by the Superintendent of the Maryland State Police
or his duly authorized agent or agents. Such license shall
identify the licensee and the location of his place of business.
One such license shall be required for each place of business where
pistols or revolvers are sold.

Paul Revere
April 13, 2000, 12:31 PM
dz...

Geez man, sorry such a state exists. Irregardless, may I remind you and all in the Maryland legislature that all of your laws violate the Rule of Law and the United States Constitution. Even case law which is supported by an un-Constitutional law as its basis has no legal foundation.

No State can (legally) enact a law that violates an American citizen's unalienable Right. Of which the 2nd Amendment is a part thereof.

What does it mean to obey a law that has no legal basis or Constitutionality? If your means to purchase/posess/transfer an arm protected by the 2nd is "infringed", such an infringement authorizes you to... THINK FOR YOURSELF!!!!!!!!

Throw off the yokes of your enslavement and be a free man. It feels really, really good.

dZ
April 13, 2000, 12:47 PM
there is also this little diddy:
(a) Right to regulate transfer and possession of pistols and
revolvers preempted by State. -All restrictions imposed by the
laws, ordinances or regulations of all subordinate jurisdictions
within the State of Maryland on possession or transfers by private
parties of pistols and revolvers are superseded by this section and
the State of Maryland hereby preempts the right of such
jurisdictions to regulate the possession and transfer of pistols
and revolvers.

& of course MD has the HAndgun review board that must evaluate any pistol before it can be sold in MD: http://www.inform.umd.edu/UMS+State/MD_Resources/MDSP/gunrostr.html

This is kinda interesting too: http://www.mcdl.org/stats.htm
Only in Maryland are you NOT DISAPPROVED ! -- whenever a law-abiding citizen buys a Maryland Regulated firearm, a Form 77R is sent to
the Maryland State Police (MSP) for a background check by your licensed gun dealer. When returned from the MSP, if your law-abiding, not
under-age, or of mental infirmity, your Form 77R will be stamped NOT DISAPPROVED. You sign it and return it to the MSP. Your pink copy
does not have that stamp. Thats why MCDL is publishing it on the web. MCDL thinks it is stamped this way, because the state government
has no authority under the Constitution of the United States to give such approval.

Larry P.
April 13, 2000, 01:08 PM
Yo, guys! It STILL ain't time to shoot anybody, maybe less now than ever. The current case (what's his face? Emerson?) which has already been ruled a violation of the 2nd has simply GOT to go to the Supreme Court, and they have very little choice how to rule. For the moment we need to be absolutely certain that they do not run out of funds (ala the 1939 case w. Miller) before the matter is concluded. THEN, if our rights are clearly being violated, we can talk about the revolution, and the Supreme Court is gonna recognize that distinct possibility.

Somebody who knows the Web and computers better than I do start figuring where I send my check. I have already sent a missive to the NRA on the subject.

Other than that, I went to a gun show some years back with my sons, and one of them was carrying my pistol in his pocket (he was underage for possession, WGAS) when someone behind a counter said "hey! I'll give you $XXX for that." Cash changed hands, firearm handed over, I have no idea who that guy was nor do I care. I suspect the same thing has happened to all my other firearms. Darn, Mr. Fedman, I sure wish I could help you...

Before you kill and die, consider clogging the courts and the jails with your OWN pristine (and still breathing) body. If you think that those who start a civil war will survive to see the result, you are living in a dream world.

Whoops! 'Scuse me, I was just distracted by a call from CCRKBA, there went another $150. If you ain't contributing/complaining to your congresscritter, don't even bother to tell me how you'll "stand beside me", because I know I'll be alone when the time comes.

Larry

Paul Revere
April 13, 2000, 02:44 PM
Larry P...

Settle down fella and re-read my posts. You'll never hear anything about "civil war" or "revolution" from PR. I prefer to just go around the system of yokes, collars, and chains at this point. I carry a pocket size copy of the "Declaration of Independence" and "Constitution of the United States of America", and reference it often. I don't see anything in there that says the federal government can infringe upon my (or your) RKBA.

When the time is right, we will all know what we have to do to keep our country from falling head long into tyranny. That will be the time we feed the hogs.

westex
April 13, 2000, 08:45 PM
Some time back we had a similar post and it seemed most folks here had either lost or sold all of their firearms they had ever purchased with 4473 papers on them.

I found this unbelieveable until just the other day. I had a chance to do a little fishing off the Texas coast and thought I would take along all my toys and give them a good cleaning if the fish weren't biting. Well my boat got swamped by a large freighter and I lost EVERYTHING. Can you believe it! I am so depressed I don't think I will ever purchase another firearm. And to make matters worse my safe had been stolen when I got back home. But it an old one and since I had nothing to put in it I figured it wasn't even worth the trouble to report the theft. I couldn't believe the safe was the only thing taken. I hope my disaster does not cancel my TFL membership as I would still like to discuss my departed old friends as if they were still around. Sniff! Sniff!

Paul - One item I've always enjoyed carrying with me is a quote from a gentleman long deceased that goes as follows, " This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can excerise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it."

RKBA! (even if they've been taken to their final resting place) more Sniffs!

EQUALIZER
April 13, 2000, 08:59 PM
Paul Revere,

You said, "No State can (legally) enact a law that violates an American citizen's unalienable Right. Of which the 2nd Amendment is a part thereof."

I agree whole heartedly. One BIG problem comes when there are those too ignorant of our constitution, too spineless, or just doesn't care that goes out and enforces those laws. The justice system, under same pretense or personal agenda, rules upon those unconstitutional laws, and the poor decent law abiding citizen is ripped from his family and placed in a small room with Bubba and his girls for a very long time. I'm not disagreeing with you.....just making an observation. I don't know of any simple solutions at this point, however I believe that many of us here are doing more than simply complaining, as some might assume. I am grateful that we can have this discussion as without becomming well informed, no good decisions can be made. I for one would be happy to have you guys on my side when the chips are down.

robert


------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ

Blue Jays
April 13, 2000, 11:06 PM
Good Evening Everyone-

Paul Revere, this is an outstanding essay and the follow-up points are just as well thought-out and interesting.

It heartens me to see that we (as TFL participants) can speak in terms of "futures" without people complaining of "paranoia" or "black helicopter watchers" in their midst.

Thanks,

~ Blue Jays ~

Paul Revere
April 14, 2000, 10:23 AM
Blue Jay...

I appreciate your compliment. Thanks.

I'll assume what you meant by "futures", was that this topic deals with OUR future. It does, however, actions outlined herein need to begin IMMEDIATELY!

Take a look around. Eventhough gun crimes are at an all time LOW, we are being attacked from all angles. The current pending legislation in Washington, D.C. and many states is indicative of a need to call for immediate action. The most threatening piece of these pending laws is the closing of the "gun show loophole". What that effectively does, is eliminates the ability of private individuals to have a market place to buy/sell/trade their private property without first submitting to the NICS registration tyranny. In addition, it even covers the connections made at such shows to prevent transactions being completed outside the show grounds at some later date between private parties. It is clear that all measures to prevent such illegal legislation is failing dramaticly. We need to take action that lines with "non-compliance".

This is NOT a topic about "paranoia" as you said. And eventhough I've read alot about claims of "black helicopter" sightings, train loads of UN vehicles being brought into our country's interior, and detainment camps being constructed, I am merely swallowing hard and digesting that information into my overall assessment of our current situation. Whether these claims have any shred of validity is not the issue here. Although I believe it would be both naive and careless to completely discount such claims, given our current situation that has clearly put us in "code yellow".

I can promise that your continued loyal compliance to the many un-constitutional gun control laws today, will be viewed with great regret in the years to come. And you may or may not remember the advice I've outlined herein at that time of great regret, but you CAN take action today. The process begins by forcing yourself onto a line of strict "non-compliance". Set yourself free from the chains of the paper trails that lead to your private property.

Remember that those in political offices have taken an oath to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution (so help them God). This includes a solemn promise to NOT infringe upon your RKBA. This is your permission slip to ignore ALL un-Constitutional legislation and mandates.

What is Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness if we are wearing chains? Throw them off...be a free man.

Blue Jays
April 18, 2000, 11:27 PM
Good Evening Everyone-

Paul Revere, my words are sincerely meant to be a compliment! http://204.235.96.21/NonCGI/smile.gif

It is your excellent ability to raise awareness towards controversial topics without the undercurrent of "paranoia" or "black helicopters" that makes you an interesting and inspirational poster to TFL.

I'm certainly on the "same sheet of music" with you to carefully evaluate all sides of the story....and certainly not to discount anyone's viewpoints without exhaustive analysis.

Yes, in terms of "futures," I was speaking in terms of what we as gunowners and patriots have to look forward to in the years ahead.

Thanks again....

~ Blue Jays ~

[This message has been edited by Blue Jays (edited April 19, 2000).]

jnix
April 19, 2000, 05:23 PM
Three words: Straw Man Purchase

------------------
"Guns don't kill people the government does" (http://www.favewavs.com/cartoonwavs/gvmt.wav), Rusty Shackleford.
http://www.fair.org

AllanHampton
April 19, 2000, 06:51 PM
I read through this entire thread and wonder if I missed something or are or the posters missing something? I saw only two suggested remedies, non-compliance and an implied use of the vote.

Dennis implied using the vote and told the truth why. I second his suggestion and state it more plainly, vote third party. Yeah, I hear all the screams of fear and politico induced parrot echos, but you ain't gonna change democrats and/or republicans by continuing to vote for them and begging them to honor their oath of office. And yeah I know you have a very good representative. Paul is the only Representative I know of who is worth his salt.We have until November to try to get the word out. So tell everyone you know to vote third party. It could save your Life, Liberty and pursuit of Happiness and your children's too.

My Congressman, Asa Hutchinson, has a discussion board (the only elected in WDC that does) and I invite you to post there. Be forewarned there a few regular socialist posting there. They believe the Constitution is a old outdated worthless rag. http://plato1.aristotle.net/asa/ubb/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro

Also, I have a very good copy of the Constitution with interpretation prepared by Joanne Campbell that I will email to anyone who wants it. I have found nothing with Joanne's work that I disagree with. [email protected]

I wish you all Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Allan

BAB
April 19, 2000, 10:55 PM
Maybe I missed it somewhere in all the above posts as I only have time to skim them, so forgive me if I am asking something that was already addressed.

It was mentioned that FFLs hold onto the 4473s 'til they go out of business. My question is: what happens (or at least is supposed to happen by law) to the 4473s when a given FFL goes out of business? Are the forms forwarded to ATF or someone like that, or are the forms destroyed?

Thanks.

Paul Revere
April 20, 2000, 08:53 AM
Bab...

The 4473's go to F-Troop!

CassidyGT
April 20, 2000, 11:31 AM
Paul Revere - You are the man.

I am with you all the way on almost everything you post.

Viva La Resistance!!!!

------------------
Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
[email protected]
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm (http://www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm)
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

dZ
April 20, 2000, 11:52 AM
They other side of a cash purchase is now you have committed the felony of possesion of an unregistered handgun in MD.

If you get discovered, both the seller & the buyer get disarmed permanently.

The only cash gun is a cache only gun.

dZ

Hawkman
April 20, 2000, 12:21 PM
In my state (Georgia) private sales are legal - just make sure buyer is a resident and that you have no reason to believe he is not qualified to purchase.

So hypothetically, my buddy and I each buy a Glock 23, fill out the FFL, then sell to each other. Paper trail ends?

Paul Revere
April 20, 2000, 03:27 PM
CassidyGT...

Like fine wine, they'll get much better with age, just stay tuned. Thank you sir.

dz...

Again...what's up with MD? I'll bet that none of that crap would stand up in court!

Hawkman...

The process my friend, is avoiding the FFL 4473/NICS tyranny from the get go. Theoretically, the 4473/NICS registration would first identify "gun owner(s)". That would include your address and what they could expect to find at the place you claimed was your residence (ie, 3 handguns, 2 rifles, 4 shotguns). The nicey nice approach would be two uniformed officers coming to your door with a detailed list, "requesting" either; particular "registered" firearm(s), or some sort of documentation showing transfer of said firearms. The not so nicey nice approach (and most likely) would be a no-knock storm trooper thug squad in the middle of the night DEMANDING every firearm you supposedly registered. By the way, the so-called SOP for this drill would be if they found nothing, you'd be arrested and detained as a suspect anyway.

For tactical defense, may I suggest renting a movie called, "Safe House" starring Patrick Stewart. Note how he prepares for no-knock entries...and be prepared to do the same. Also note his gun closet. Now that's hardware!

Hawkman
April 20, 2000, 03:34 PM
For tactical defense, may I suggest renting a movie called, "Safe House" starring Patrick Stewart. Note how he prepares for no-knock entries...and be prepared to do the same. Also note his gun closet. Now that's hardware!

[/B][/QUOTE]

That is one of my favorite movies! I'm trying to duplicate his hardware http://204.235.96.21/NonCGI/smile.gif

Hawkman

Jordan
April 20, 2000, 03:45 PM
Hawkman: good to see you thinking-- *BUT*--

If they show up to confiscate Glock serial # xxx5, I don't think they will walk away empty handed just because you are in possesion of Glock serial # xxx6.

BTW: If it ever gets as far as door-step confiscation we are WRONG! But we'll let it.. trust me.

Paul Revere
April 20, 2000, 04:36 PM
Jordan...

There's a lovely event in a book I've been recommending (Patriots, Surviving the Coming Collapse, by James Wesley Rawles), where the UN allied forces are rolling into the town in Idaho where our main characters are held up in their hidey hole. Our guys zipped out ahead of the invasion into the surrounding mountains/national forest. The owner of the retreat stayed behind in the LP/OP with a set of binos and his favorite control panel "Mr. Destructo". As something like 36 UN berets blasted down his fortified front door and entered in search of goodies, Mr. Destructo came to life, sending a surge of current through 500 yards of field wire from a claymore klacker to several well placed blasting caps pushed into several sticks of TNT, pressed into several large gasoline containers...click, click, click....BOOOOOM! GooBye.

Now that's justice!

EQUALIZER
April 24, 2000, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Revere:
"gun show loophole". What that effectively does, is eliminates the ability of private individuals to have a market place to buy/sell/trade their private property without first submitting to the NICS registration tyranny. In addition, it even covers the connections made at such shows to prevent transactions being completed outside the show grounds at some later date between private parties. It is clear that all measures to prevent such illegal legislation is failing dramaticly. We need to take action that lines with "non-compliance".

Remember that those in political offices have taken an oath to protect, preserve, and defend the Constitution (so help them God). This includes a solemn promise to NOT infringe upon your RKBA. This is your permission slip to ignore ALL un-Constitutional legislation and mandates.

What is Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness if we are wearing chains? Throw them off...be a free man.[/B][/quote]

Paul Revere,

Maybe this Q is too sensitive for a public forum. Please email me if so. I have been wondering for years HOW in the world a gun purchase can be made without leaving a paper trail? I can see that one can buy a used one from a private individual cash and carry. But all of the places I've shoped at require ID, forms, NIC, etc. before even selling used guns. Is there any new gun or at least reciever "loop-hole" that would not leave the citizen confiscators with a person's name, address, SS #, etc?
Email: [email protected] (http://[email protected])


------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ

Paul Revere
April 24, 2000, 03:10 PM
EQUALIZER...

"All the places you shop"???? Boyo boy, you need to look a bit farther than your nose. Yes private to private only.

Allow your creative juices to flow, and you'll be amazed at what a clean, decently dressed person with a wad of cash in his/her pocket can buy these days without a trail. I'm not talking about breaking any laws either. Just use your noggin!

[This message has been edited by Paul Revere (edited April 24, 2000).]

indyspc
April 25, 2000, 04:10 PM
OK so I sell anything bought from them and buy everything else from us. Got it.
I can see clearly now ......

Monkeyleg
April 25, 2000, 04:17 PM
Well, here's another question. Since I don't own that many guns (compared to a lot of folks here), and most have been purchased from dealers, what's the downside of having "receipts" showing that I sold them when it became obvious what was going to happen?
I have no plans to just roll over, but am just trying to come up with solutions to a problem that hasn't _yet_ quite materialized.

Dick

Paul Revere
April 25, 2000, 04:57 PM
Monkeyleg and indyspc...

Reread my above post which outlines the difference between the "nicey nice" plan and the "more than likely" plan. A nicey nice plan would require an illegal as hell confiscation warrant that would have your "registered" (anything purchased through FFL/4473/NICS) hardware listed. That's what they want, that's all they could possibly ask for (the things they know you have). If you've sold these items, what could they possibly do, shoot you?

If anyone needs a starting gun to fire in order to wake up, the very first "seizure" would be just that.

EQUALIZER
April 26, 2000, 02:28 PM
Paul,

I wrongly assumed that you were talking about buying a new gun from an FFL holder.?.?... I guess it isn't illegal for the customer, just for him. That's what makes it a challenge buying new w/out a paper trail IMHO. I didn't make it clear, but person to person is what I should have said, albeit new gun. Glad you brought up the topic. Its one that goes unmentioned, (and unanswered), all too often.


------------------
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
---------------------------
"Reasonable gun law?............There's No such critter!" --EQ

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited April 26, 2000).]

Monkeyleg
April 26, 2000, 02:59 PM
Paul, if they do get around to registering, I wonder if the forms would be reproduceable by
Kinko's? ;)

Dick

Oleg Volk
April 26, 2000, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Revere:

A nicey nice plan would require an illegal as hell confiscation warrant that would have your "registered" (anything purchased through FFL/4473/NICS) hardware listed. That's what they want, that's all they could possibly ask for (the things they know you have). If you've sold these items, what could they possibly do, shoot you?[/quote]

That's right. Now that they are mostly certain that you can't shoot back...

Coinneach
April 26, 2000, 04:04 PM
Past this thread's bedtime.