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Miss Demeanors
April 9, 2000, 04:47 PM
UGH! I just got back from the Kane county gun show. I met Gwinnydapooh, his fiancee Melissa, and Christopher from here at TFL. It was great meeting fellow TFL'rs and we had a good time checking out all the guns and knives. We all went out to eat after the show and talked about some of the threads here LOL. Anyway coming home from a great day, I called my Mom to let her know Id be there soon to pick up my girl. She knew I was going to the Kane county fairgrounds, but didn't really ask what was there so I sure didn't mention it. Well it turns out they drove past the fairgrounds and saw the sign "Gun show" LMAO. I guess they were saying "No, Sandy would never go to something like that" SURPRISE MOM! :D My mom was shocked! I told her that I have aquired an interest in firearms (better term than gun nut :D) and have been learning about them. She freaked! She didn't yell or anything but I felt like I was talking to Sarah Brady before reality struck. She thinks guns are evil and that no one in our family has guns "Your grandfather hated guns!!". Another surprise mom....Dad bought a .38 special when you two first got married :D. She walked around it and said that someone gave it to him and he didn't want it blah blah blah. She went on that guns are not a 'nice' thing to learn about and that I should spend my time helping people. :D So, I said I have helped a few people, I have taught them what little I know about firearms and helped them see that guns aren't as bad as you think. She just couldn't believe it, her daughter into guns and why would I want to do that. She says that the "NBA RIFLE CLUB" (LMAO she was trying to say NRA) is a bunch of nuts wanting all their guns. SHOCK NUMBER 3...ya mom I joined the NRA I am a memeber. I think I gave the poor woman an anxiety attack. I tried to just give her very little info but she kept setting herself up and I couldn't pass. I told her about the second amendment and that I have a 'passion' to help make sure no one takes that away from us. She said just said Ok we aren't going to agree so lets just end the topic. So that was the end. I am going to pick my girl up there and I am betting my life they are going to sit me down for a lecture LOL. I just went through this with my friend a few weeks ago, so I am up for it. I am remembering all the advice that was given to me here and am going to stick to my guns (pun intended). Does ANYONE else have an entire family that is anti? Am the only one? I know everyone has a few anti's in the family but the WHOLE family? That is like 12 against 1 :(. What would any of you do in this situation? Give up or just keep at it and don't mention it? I feel like an outsider because they all really don't like guns especially the women. They think I am brainwashed. They also can't understand why I, of all people, who saw first hand what a gun, improperly used ,can do. I told her that I met some friends from the internet up there that are into guns as well, and they were very normal, why does it make me abnormal?

PHEW, I am a yapper! :) Just had to vent I'm off to anti world for a little bit! [/rant]

To Don, Melissa, and Christopher it was great meeting you all! Glad you found out what an Oasis is ;) LMAO

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Sandys' Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/il2/imconverted/il2/imconverted/Default.htm)
RKBA forums (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fpsychotalkfirearmsandrkba)
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica

frogman6
April 9, 2000, 04:52 PM
Well.......it sounds like you have a real bad case of the anti's........try reason.......attempt persuasion.........and if all else fails.......do what I did.......just wear 'em down ;).

Good luck.

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Star Trek nerd and proud of it

Hard Ball
April 9, 2000, 05:41 PM
Miss D;
I had one or two relatives like that. An argument I found effective was to say that guns are not inherently good or evil. They are tools that cn be put to either good uses or evil ones. I don't think that converted them but it gave them some serios thoughts.

Fortuneatly my Mother was not one of them. She was too fond of her Walther PPK to be anti-gun.
I'm glad you enjoyed the gun show. Hang in there and stick to your guns!

Regards, Hard Ball

Nukem
April 9, 2000, 05:42 PM
Tell her that a gun is no more evil than her toaster. It's just waiting there for her to drop her gaurd and stick her butter knife in to unstick that english muffin. ;)

7.62X39
April 9, 2000, 05:50 PM
Miss D.
It took me four years to get my sister to shoot a gun, i cant say she is totaly pro gun, but its a start.
With dad's help i also got my stepmother around too, she will not own or fire a gun but understands the need to protect our rights.
It helps to have that one perfect question asked by one of the antis...what if the government did....thats why we have a RKBA.
Keep working at it some will come around!
7

terridarri
April 9, 2000, 06:00 PM
Miss Demeanors,
I kind of understand where your coming from except my mother is wondering what happened to me because prior to meeting Gunslinger I my self was not anti but I was very gun shy and they scared me to death, but after meeting Gunslinger I found out they are quite interesting and I'm now at the point I want to learn more and more. The gunshow is very educational, I learned alot at the Tulsa show last weekend, it was very worth the trip.

I was raised up around guns but very few, just a few rifles that was used for rabbit hunting and I had a 4-10 shotgun as a small child and did use it for hunting, but when I got older I got scared of guns, just to see a gun would make me shake, so my mother thinks I have lost my rocker, but one of these days she will understand you never get too old to change. :)

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WHEN IT COMES TO FRIENDS THE SKY IS NOT THE LIMIT

crobrun
April 9, 2000, 06:09 PM
Just a suggestion ... Next time you see a LEO with a gun, ask your mother if that gun is evil. WWII picture of a soldier with a rifle - evil or good ( recommend allies soldier - Nazis SS guy may not help you make your point ;)

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

Jeff OTMG
April 9, 2000, 06:32 PM
terridarri, Miss D actually made the Tulsa show last Oct. She was amazed that people were walking around the parking lot with guns slung over their shoulders in town. She claims that you just don't see that in Chicago. She is probably right, if people were legally walking around Chicago with guns I would suspect the crime rate would be lower.

Hey Sandy, was it as big as Tulsa? ;) How long did it take to walk?

Bud Helms
April 9, 2000, 06:36 PM
MissD,

Has any member of your family ever had an accident, say, with a power tool or some other hand tool? It may be an example to use against the "guns are evil" argument. Just bring up the "evil drill press" that drilled a hole in cousin Bob's finger. 'Not trying to be gross, but if there is an example in the family, I'd use it.

They will deny it's the same thing. That's when you put on one of those big goofy green smiley grins (God save me!) :D, 'cause you know you got 'em!

Now, go get 'em!

foxfire
April 9, 2000, 06:48 PM
Miss D,

"...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference..."

Good luck...

------------------
...defend the 2nd., it protects us all.
No fate but what we make...

Miss Demeanors
April 9, 2000, 06:52 PM
Well I made it back in one piece sanity and all :D. My dad asked me how it was and how much it cost to get in and that was it! :D I think my dad is hiding something ;). So I can take a break on this today.

Glad to hear others hear the same things as I do.

Unfortunatley the only accident we have had in our family was when I saw my bf shoot himself. So I have no ammo on that line :D.

Jeff.....not even close to Tulsa! I saw that gun you were looking for again though :D. Took about hour and a half I think. It was really small in there. I did see one guy with a rifle slung over his back and asked Don about it. I guess the guy was there to sell it LOL. Other than that it was like a 72 hour waiting period for handguns and 24 for rifles (I think that was it). So no one with guns on their backs. :) Although Don, Melissa, and Chris were all carrying knives. I felt left out. Maybe I'll have to get me one of those :D.

Gunslinger
April 9, 2000, 06:57 PM
Sandy, you've got mail. :)

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.

yorec
April 9, 2000, 06:57 PM
How about this one:

I have an uncle who lost a couple fingers to a snow blower. It got clogged with slush and he hit it on the side of the blower with a chunk of wood to rattle the slush out. It was in neutral, blades and wheels motionless, but he engine was running. A peice of wire that he didn't see got into the blades. When he hit it, the transmission kicked in and the wire in turn caught on the wood and then his hand. It took his right first two fingers off at the first knuckle. He was lucky that was all it got! :eek:

Guess you could say that evil snow blower was fishing! Now of course my uncle follows the common safety rule to turn a snow blower off if you have to clear the blade area.

Gunslinger
April 9, 2000, 07:07 PM
I posted this (among other things) in an e-mail to Sandy but so others may benefit from my eloquent pros I'll post it here as well. ;)
Another arguement in our favor:
Ask if the automobile used by a drunk driver to kill an innocent family is evil. It is no more evil or responsible for evil than an automobile used to drive a family to church is responsible for their religious faith. Both are simply tools.......nothing more. Tools that may be used for either good or evil. However the gun may also be used to protect one from evil.

Sensop, glad to see you have finaly embraced the green smileys. :D :D :D

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.

C.R.Sam
April 9, 2000, 07:10 PM
MissD;
You are getting some very good input. I would like to add............since you are grossly outnumbered; learn the weaknesses of your individual relatives. Strike with knowledge and humor on your side and withdraw, allow time for each volly to sink in. Paraphrased from Mao Tse Tung's little red book on guerilla warefare. Good luck

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev!." We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have communism."

Bud Helms
April 9, 2000, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Strike with knowledge and humor on your side and withdraw, allow time for each volly to sink in.[/quote] C.R.Sam's got a point there!

Gunslinger: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Sensop, glad to see you have finaly embraced the green smileys.[/quote]
I have not! I'll have you know it was a sacrifice for a good cause! I am always at the service of a purty lady in need of help, even at my own discomfort. So don't go spreadin' no rumors!

CassidyGT
April 9, 2000, 07:51 PM
My Father, Mother and Brother are anti-gun. It is like talking to a brick wall. I don't even bother anymore. Just don't mention it to them and things should be OK.

Fortunately my wife is progun and we are raising pro-gun kids - much to the consternaiton of my folks - hahahahahahahaha

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Thane (NRA GOA JPFO SAF CAN)
MD C.A.N.OP
[email protected]
http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/digital/237/cansite/can.html
www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm (http://www.members.home.net/tbellomo/tbellomo/index.htm)
"As nightfall does not come at once, neither does oppression.
In both instances there is a twilight when everything remains
seemingly unchanged. And it is in such twilight that we all
must be most aware of change in the air - however slight -
lest we become unwitting victims of the darkness."
--Supreme Court Justice William O. Douglas

pack_rat
April 9, 2000, 08:59 PM
MissD,
You could just about write your own ticket in Nashville:
"...nobody likes a gun but me-
I'm the black sheep of the family"

Seriously though, stand by what you believe in. People can be sincere about something- but they can be sincerely wrong.

============
Hold your fire-
Keep it burning bright
Hold the flame
'til the dream ignites-
a spirit with a vision
Is a dream with a mission
-Music by Lee and Lifeson/Lyrics by Peart

Shin-Tao
April 9, 2000, 09:23 PM
Imagine how upset they'd be if you actually had a gun.

Oh, yes...LOL.

Mikul
April 9, 2000, 10:46 PM
Your mother sounds as though she hasn't thought about the topic too much and is probably running under the "guns only exist to kill people" logic. That's not a bad position to work from.

Almost everyone agrees that the police should carry guns. A simple argument is that the police carry guns WHY? To protect us. There aren't a whole heck of a lot of criminals stupid enough to attack the police directly. The police are acting on our hehalf to protect us. Your belief is that you can act on your own behalf and are "cutting out the middle man" especially because the police usually aren't there when a violent crime occurs, they're just there to clean up the mess. There is plenty of information and classes available so that you can safely own, use and carry a gun a safely as any police officer.

Always follow up with the core idea that a gun assures our protection against a corrupt government. We may not have one now, ahem, but if we get rid of this right now, and the government gets out of hand in 10, 20 or 30 years, we surely won't get it back.

Miss Demeanors
April 9, 2000, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Always follow up with the core idea that a gun assures our protection against a
corrupt government.[/quote]

I dare not mention that aspect of it, I will be labeled a cult member! :D Then she will really think I am brainwashed. I think I'll stay away from that part. The protection part of it is what I am working on. She's going to be a tough one. But she needs to be educated, obviously she is getting her information just from the media. Gee I wonder where I got it from? :D

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Fortunately my wife is progun and we are raising pro-gun kids - much to the
consternaiton of my folks - hahahahahahahaha[/quote]

:D I am going to raise mine as well. We need to start a new generation off on the right foot! :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Imagine how upset they'd be if you actually had a gun.[/quote]

Yeah, that's why I am 'breaking' them in now :D.

I read over some of the ideas you all have mentioned and I will keep them all in mind. :)

------------------
Sandys' Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/il2/imconverted/il2/imconverted/Default.htm)
RKBA forums (http://pub2.ezboard.com/fpsychotalkfirearmsandrkba)
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica

Jeff Thomas
April 9, 2000, 11:20 PM
I would agree with staying away from the 'militia' and 'corrupt government' arguments with most folks. Too far out for them.

Miss D, sounds like you're doing well. Remember that it is unlikely even in your family that everyone that appears anti-self defense is really looking at things the same way. Make your points few at a time, and with only one or two family members at a time. Stay logical, and you should be able to bring some of them along. Emphasize self defense - most people eventually understand at least that part.

Regarding the silly 'guns are only made to kill' argument, make sure you explain that 'guns terminate violence'. 99.8% of guns are never used in a crime, much less to kill anyone. Why would we describe their use as killing if it happens so rarely? And, we don't give firearms to LEO's so they can kill people, do we? Of course not. And, it is the same truth for honest civilians, like you and your family.

This is how the war is one. One person at a time. One family at a time. One debate, at a time.

We eventually ended our disastrous participation in the Vietnam War to a great extent because people talked to each other, and little by little changed their perspectives on that conflict. However, you feel about that war, we're involved in another 'war' right now, regarding the RKBA.

People, like you, will win this war by constantly and logically pointing out the truth to friends, neighbors, coworkers and ... family members.

Give it 12 months, and I'll bet you'll have a few converts. Make sure you take them to the range. Logic and truth are on your side.

Good luck, Miss D. Regards from AZ

alan
April 9, 2000, 11:25 PM
Re what you describe as your mothers opinion's, thinking or whatever you might call it, you sound like you are old enough to make your own decisions. She is certainly old enough to make hers.

You pay your money, and make your choices.

Juan Hunt Greer
April 10, 2000, 12:31 AM
Miss demeanors, you sound like my kind of
gal, except I'm probably too old for you.
crankshaft

4V50 Gary
April 10, 2000, 12:50 AM
My family is opposite. My father, mother, brother and sister and I would shoot together. When I learned to shoot DA revolver (in the DA mode), I learned on my sister's Python.

Sandy, stick to your guns. Easiest way to win a person over is to take them to the range. Do it only one relative at a time and make sure (s)he has fun. Good luck.

Dakotan
April 10, 2000, 01:32 AM
I just realized how lucky I am in this respect. My Mom knows I carry concealed virtually all the time, and about all she ever says (if anything) is, "Do you really think you need that here?" (usually with a smirk). I just say, "I HOPE not!", or "Mom....seat belts; yes or no?" and it ends there, usually with both of us laughing. Open carry is legal here in South Dakota also, and although I rarely carry that way, my Mom hardly even notices I'm carrying, and is either totally oblivious or just says, "When did you get that one?" Gotta love that lady! Take Care- Dakotan

FUD
April 10, 2000, 09:01 AM
I'm not going to give you any advise on this matter because I'm sure that you've already read a lot of good points and you might have even written some of them in other posts. Instead, I am going to share with you some of my experiences and maybe you'll find some comfort there.

My wife (before she was my wife) was open to the idea of firearms -- she wasn't pro but she wasn't anti either -- she was open (because one of her uncles literally had dozens of guns all over his house) and I even took her shooting with me a few times before we were married.

Then we moved from the backward state (with regard to firearms) of Jersey to the hot & humid Florida swamp where the firearm laws are more civilized compared to Jersey. Unfortunately, the home we were having built got delayed by several months and we had no place to stay so my in-laws agreed to put us up.

The majority of our stuff was placed in storage excepts for about 2 weeks worth of cloths (laundry every weekend), the baby stuff and my guns. One of my sister-in-laws was flat out against having any guns in the house and she's a doctor of psychology so rationally arguing with her was impossible because she knew all of the tricks to counter attack any point that I was trying to make.

So, I basicly said, "Look. It's your house & your rules. If you don't want the guns here than that's fine but these guns are registered in my name back in Jersey and I can't get rid of them because there is no registration process here in Florida and if I sell them, they'll still be associated with me back in Jersey and if they are used in a crime, they will come after me and your sister (my wife) will end of having to raise our daughter by herself because I'm going to end up getting locked up for a crime that was committed with my gun. So, if you don't want the guns in the house, then we're just going to have to make other living arrangements."

The fact that they were really crazy about my daughter (their neice) also helped a lot because they didn't want us moving out. So she agreed to have the guns in the house but without any bullets. At the time, all of my guns were pistols, so it was a simple matter to have spare, hidden magazines loaded up with ammo. Sneaking the ammo into the house was a bit of a problem but it was hidden in the car and I broughtit in with the baby supplies.

While living there, my wife pretty much stayed neutral but when push came to shove, she took the anti-gun position. When I got my Florida CCW license and began reading gun rags about which firearm to get for concealed carry (because of the hot & humid weather, the guns that I already owned were just slightly too big to carry completely concealed -- it wouldn't have been a problem up north but down here it just wasn't possible).

Again, I would hear "Why do you need more than ONE gun?" I came back with "Why do you have tons of earrings, watches, bracelets, etc.? You have thousands of dollars invested in that. Well, different ones go with different outfits. Well, one gun is a 'good stopper' but if I have to shoot against a lot of people (such as Y2K), then I might go for a slightly weaker gun but which holds a lot more ammo. Another gun is small for compact carry while another is large to use against animals (such as alligators)."

I think I made my point because they sort of dropped the subject. As I said, we lived there for several months and half that time I walked around the house with a Kahr MK9 in an inside the waist belly band and nobody knew that it was there with the exception of my wife who either saw me put it on in the morning or take it off at night. Eating supper with them, watching TV on the sofa, playing around on the floor with the baby, etc. -- they never knew that I was armed.

They knew they weren't going to change me (and I've pretty much accepted the fact that I'm not going to change them) and so to keep the peace (we're a pretty close family) we don't talk about it too much. When the subject does come up I usually bring up the following point: "Some teenager half my age breaks into our home looking for money to buy drugs. How am I going to defend my family? He's younger, stronger, bigger & faster than me and will be able to quickly overpower me and might do things that I don't even want to think about to my wife, (your sister) and my daughter. Yeah, we could call the police, but even the best response time is 3 or 4 minutes. Do you know what can happen in that time? Try counting slowly to 180 and see how LONG their FASTEST response time is.

When I put it this way, it usually makes them uncomfortable and they drop they subject. I also take comfort in the fact that their uncle is very pro-gun (you can't walk into any room of his house without seeing at least a couple of guns around the place) and he has even given me a few guns from his collection so that sort of helps me in my pro-gun position against my in-laws.

I don't know if this has helped you any but maybe it will offer some comfort that you are not alone and maybe something from my story might prove beneficial to you.

Regards,
FUD http://users.net-lynx.com/~fudal/TFL-flame.gif
Share what you know, learn what you don't.

Slowpoke_Rodrigo
April 10, 2000, 10:41 AM
Miss Demeanors, you have true grit. Best regards to you.

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Slowpoke Rodrigo...he pack a gon...

Vote for the Neal Knox 13

Erik
April 10, 2000, 10:58 AM
I like the "You love me and I am a gun owner so you must love gun owners" defense. While not a serious argument, it makes them stop and address that if you don't fit their stereotypes that others don't either.

Don Gwinn
April 10, 2000, 11:48 AM
Sandy, I hope we didn't get you in trouble with that husband of yours. We certainly didn't want to do that. Getting in trouble over such a lousy show would be twice as bad. :rolleyes:

If all else, fails, deny it was a gun show--tell her you were at an "Oasis" (and wink at her several times.) She'll get the picture.
:D

Erik has a good point--you want a gun, and she loves you, so people who want to own guns can't be all evil. Another good one is to ask if police guns are evil. (And if she says no, then offer to get a police trade-in! :D ) See what she says to that.

Of course, you're going to have to start out by getting her to honestly tell you whether she believes that people, and women in particular, really have any right to defend themselves if violence is required. Some people just don't. If she doesn't you'll have to start out on a very basic level and try to establish why your life should be more valuable than your mugger's life.

I'd also suggest that if you can get her in front of a computer, you should have her take Oleg's quiz: http://www.dd-b.net/RKBA

Oleg Volk
April 10, 2000, 11:57 AM
If you can't get her to a computer, print the relevant pages. Might also want to look up Tao or Gun which is excelent and written for liberals: http://www.starseedcreations.com/RKBA/tao_of_gun.html

Big Al
April 10, 2000, 01:55 PM
Jeff Cooper once said "Any rational adult who believes that inanimate objects have personalities/attitudes skewed towards evil or destruction should realize they're not making sense and should stay out of adult conversations."

Not the nicest way to prove your point, but...



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"Oh yeah? Well I talk LOOOUDLY! And I carry a BIIIGGER stick! And I'll use it, too." -Yoesemite Sam

Shok
April 10, 2000, 02:57 PM
I have a mother-in-law thats anti-gun. She looses every debate. I've used anything from 2nd Amendment principles to the fact that criminals fear armed citizens.

Another good one I used is that I know anti-gunners who became pro-gun. Never in my life have I seen one law abiding gun owner go the other way. Has anyone seen a law abiding pro Second Amendment gun owner turn anti?

Shok

Nestor Rivera
April 10, 2000, 03:37 PM
Good Luck.
Reason and logic are our first tools in the debate, the problem is that most anti's dont want to use logic or are incapable of reason on the subject. If one must use emotion and feelings it is much harder, the only question I have found that has some resonance is to the effect What would you do to protect your kids or grandkids ? The normal answer is anything usaualy, then ask so your problem is not with doing somthing possibly violent to protect your kids / grandkids it is just being prepared right ?

Woodman
April 10, 2000, 07:30 PM
I remember hearing a song a while back that had a line in it like," a six gun is the devil's hand". Evil gun...sounds like idolatry to me. Woodman

Robert Foote
April 10, 2000, 11:02 PM
I started shooting a 1911 .45 when I was 17. My mother came along with us one day and demanded her turn at bat and blasted away as well (this, in the days before earmuffs). Of course, she was raised in Chicago in the 20s; not what you would call a shrinking violet, much less a soccer mom. I have an old photo of her walking down the street in the 1930s, and she was quite a looker in her day, too. America needs more of her kind!

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Juan Hunt Greer
April 10, 2000, 11:52 PM
An aside to woodman: another old song had a
refrain " You can't talk to a man with a
shotgun in his hand " which is wrong- you
can talk to him alright, but you may find
it difficult to intimidate him.
crankshaft

The Rock
April 11, 2000, 05:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by foxfire:
Miss D,

"...grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference..."

Good luck...

[/quote]


Hey! I thought that was 'and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people who pissed me off!'

TR

Smile. It's the 2nd best thing you can do with your lips.

papercut
April 12, 2000, 11:52 AM
Other people have said basically the same thing, but this is probably the simplest, concisest way to put it that I've ever seen:

"A gun is a tool, Marion, no better or no worse than any other tool, an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."
-- Shane, from the movie "Shane" (1953)


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"There's not much comfort in the fact that crime is down 6 percent. So instead of 100 criminals targeting you, now there are only 94. Whoop-dee-doo." -- Paxton Quigley

crobrun
April 12, 2000, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pack_rat:
snip

============
Hold your fire-
Keep it burning bright
Hold the flame
'til the dream ignites-
a spirit with a vision
Is a dream with a mission
-Music by Lee and Lifeson/Lyrics by Peart[/B][/quote]

Pack_rat
I'm a huge Rush fan, but I don't know how you always find the appropriate lyrics so well!!
I'm jealous, I guess I'll have to listen to the live album a few hundred more times :D

------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

TAZ
April 12, 2000, 04:22 PM
My mother-in-law is pretty liberal, but fortunately she is the classic liberal, willing to accept people as they are. I take care not to flaunt stuff before her as a sign of respect. My mom and cousin are pretty wierd. Mom was pretty upset about me carrying in "her" house, till I reminded her that her husband also owned a few guns and has yet to be kicked out. She hasnt batted an eye since. My cousin on the other hand, Mrs. Masters in Psychology and PhD in lead around by the nose by the TV seemed a bit upset that I had spent some money on guns. She constantly berated me on the fact that guns are the cause of all Evil in the world and that if more people started carrying them around there would be blood in the streets, just like the TV said. I really wanted to take my gun out and put it on the table next to the phone and then tell her to choose one cause she was about to die. Decided to just let things settle down and asked her to find out where the stats the TV gods were spewing came from and their definitions. I have not heard another peep out of her since. That could of course be cause I have not bothered to talk to her since, but that is besides the point.