Proof Mark Explanations please

[Baba Louie]

Can someone decipher a few of these stamps... or lead me to a linked site? Please?
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/Babalou55/firesticks012.jpg

[Scorch]

BNP under crown= British Nitro Proof (smokeless powder proof)
.455":.760"= 455 Webley Revolver cartridge (chambering)
5 TONS= Pressure of the proofing
Others are Inspector's marks and arsenal marks.

I am sure we have some British proofmark experts on here that will probably chime in reasonably soon.

[Baba Louie]

Excellant beginning and I thank you Scorch. The Brits certainly did have fun with their stamping, eh?

[johnwilliamson062]

I knew someone who bought a stamp that said awesome and left it on the counter. Their husband came home and stamped pretty much every piece of paper in sight multiple times. He had ADHD or some such. This reminded me of that.

[Baba Louie]

Found this at least
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/archives/Proofmarks.pdf
He had ADHD or some such. This reminded me of that. Made me laugh out loud, literally. I agree.

I'll keep looking.

ETA found some more info here (fascinating reading at 1st blush) http://www.scribd.com/doc/9986849/Firearms-and-Ballistics
scroll down to page 49ish or so where I find "Provisional proof, Definitive proof and Reproof, company proof, dating proofs, yada yada oh my god proofs".

And it appears that the Mark VI might be "shaved"? (and that mine needs a good cleaning after looking at others photos). OK, carry on, my learning new stuff knows no bounds today, but if you can add info, please do.

[Tamara]

The ".455" proof means I am crazy jealous of your gun. :o

[James K]

I'll give it a try. The .760 is the chamber length (case length) in inches. The .455 is the caliber. The 5 tons is the cartridge mean working pressure (not the proof pressure). It works out to 13,200 psi (the standard .38 Special is 18,000 psi, the .45 ACP is (IIRC) 19,000 which is why those revolvers reworked for .45 ACP should not be fired. The BNP and crown is the Birmingham nitro proof, the commercial proof put on when the gun was sold out of government stores. (All those markings are considered part of the proof as they are required by the proof law.)


At the top, the GP is the London proof (Gunmakers company proof) applied at some time for reasons unknown. The crossed pennants are the military proof marking, applied when the gun was accepted by the British Army. The Broad Arrow on various parts is the British government property mark, equivalent to the "US Property" on American guns. The other crown and number is the British Army inspector's mark. The Mark VI is the (Government) Model number. Technically, the gun is the "Pistol, Revolver, No. 1, Mk VI."

There are repetitions of the BNP on the cylinder and frame. The mark above the trigger is another military inspection and acceptance mark. The "ENGLAND" is a marking applied in the U.S. in compliance with the Pre-1968 law that required the gun be marked with the country of origin. (Goods other than guns still require a COO marking, but the requirement for guns was changed in 1968 to the present "import mark.")

As to present caliber, the gun appears to still be in .455 Webley and not converted to use .45 ACP in half moon clips (see above regarding safety). Those guns in the original caliber are today worth considerably more than converted guns, but in the late 1950's U.S. importers had them converted since .455 Webley ammunition was nearly impossible to find.

Jim

[Wildalaska]

As to present caliber, the gun appears to still be in .455 Webley and not converted to use .45 ACP in half moon clips

I disagree, but we need a pic of the back of the cylinder to tell for sure

WildlovethosegunsAlaska TM

[Baba Louie]

Back of the cylinder you say? Hmmm. Does look a mite shiny bright compared to the balance of the cylinder doesn't it? Cylinder fore to aft measures out a tad less than 1-7/16".

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/Babalou55/MarkVI001.jpg

Here's one "mooned" as it were. Methinks it were 'mericanized sometimes in its past. Well dang it anyway

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u308/Babalou55/MkVI003.jpg

Still and all it is a wonder to behold knowing it hit the armoury in 1919.

[Wildalaska]

Shaved

WildwhatabummerAlaska ™

[James K]

Yep. An original cylinder measures 1.5", and the half moon clips fit, which they won't with an unmodified cylinder.

BTW, Baba Louie, read what I wrote earlier about not firing factory .45 ACP ammunition in that gun. The pressure is too high and I know of a couple that had the chambers blown out firing the auto pistol round.

If you reload, cut the loads down BELOW the lowest listed in the manual for the .45 ACP. Those .45 ACP loads are intended to function the auto pistol and you don't need to worry about that.

Jim

[Baba Louie]

BTW, Baba Louie, read what I wrote earlier about not firing factory .45 ACP ammunition in that gun. The pressure is too high and I know of a couple that had the chambers blown out firing the auto pistol round.
Right you are Jim. Teddy just PM'd me on that as well. (Thanks Teddy). I've still got 4 coffee cans full of reloads my Dad worked up (or down as it were)... and I do not, have not and will not use store bought factory loads or reloads for newer designs in that old timer.

If my homework is correct, original loading pushed a 260 gr approx 650 fps. What a kitten of a load (but it worked I gather).

Now if I could just find some original "Dum Dum" and/or "Manstoppers". Sounds better than "cookie cutters"... maybe. :D

T'was suggested 200 gr SWC over what we'd nowadays consider a weak knee'd light load of Unique, but that'd best be discussed elsewhere on the board.

But I do thank you all. Great group of "smarter than I are" members here (which unfortunately isn't very hard to do or be in my case). Still learning new things every day. In Barnes, Cartridges of the World I find this concerning the .455...The .455 Revolver is not a very satisfactory field cartridge because of the low velocity and curved trajectory. On the other hand, it has excellent short-range stopping power, being on a par, or perhaps slightly better, than the .45 ACP. It can be improved by handloading and the use of semi-wadcutter hunting type bullets.

[James K]

Just FWIW, Webley also made an auto pistol in .455 Webley Auto caliber, a round on a par with the .45 ACP (Colt made some Government Model pistols in .455 Webley Auto during WWI). It was semi-rimmed, and would fire in the Mk VI and other .455 revolvers, so the British Army issued a warning NOT to fire the .455 Auto round in the Mk VI. Apparently they were aware of the weakness of the old revolver even in 1913.

Jim

[Tamara]

Just FWIW, Webley also made an auto pistol in .455 Webley Auto caliber, a round on a par with the .45 ACP (Colt made some Government Model pistols in .455 Webley Auto during WWI).

I have been told that .45ACP would actually function in the Webley "Pistol Self-Loading .455 Mk.I(N) (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2006/11/webley-scott-pistol-self-loading-455.html)", with the windage around the .451" bullet making up for any pressure differences, but I haven't cared to risk any old springs or extractors finding out...

As a matter of fact, here's (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=23753&stc=1&d=1175789601) what it took to get mine cycling reliably... :o

[britinaz]

The Webley pistol you have has many duplicate prroff marks. This is because the barrel, frame and cylinder are all tested in the proofing procedure and require separate marking. BNP stands for Birmingham Nitro Prrof. The cartridge calibre (Brit spelling) and length are also marked on the barrel (not frame). The crown and CP device indicates that the parts have passed proof test. The cross, in fact depicting crossed halberds (great big axes), is a date stamp either numerically or alpha-numerically stamped. The broad arrow is a Brith War Department stamp which indicates that the weapon was government property. Other stamps appear duplicated because they were not clearly stamped initially.
This pistol was very popular during WWI. In the early years officers were expected to provide their own sidearms which were privately purchased. This quickly became impractical and pistols were ordered for issue by the government although officers could, and did arm themselves as they saw fit.

[James K]

Hi, Tamara,

Yes, the .45 ACP will work in the Webley Auto, but the bullet has to be seated deeper because while the .455 Auto has a longer case, it has a shorter OAL. Because the .455 Auto is semi-rimmed, the chamber in the Webley Auto barrel (and the .455 Colt barrel) has no shoulder, and a .45 ACP fires in the Webley Auto only because it is held by the extractor. .455 Webley Auto cartridges are in the collector category and run about $7-10 a round.

(But you are right about the old guns; they are far too valuable today to take a chance and parts are made from unobtanium, especially that big V recoil spring.)

Jim