Tactical Advantages of the Karambit Combat Knife

[Anthony]

Hello Everyone,

I have studied Modern Arnis for a couple of years and am now moving over to Inosanto Kali with a new instructor. When it comes to a daily carry knife I have settled on the Emerson Commander in it original size.

While visiting with Mr. Emerson at a knife show I handled their various Karambit models and began to wonder about the design. When it first became popular I mostly wrote it off as a passing fad, but it has proven to be more than that.

Can anyone give me a better idea of the tactical advantage(s) of carrying a Karambit in place or in lieu of a more conventional fighting knife?

Thank you for your input.

- Anthony

[okiebuckout]

this clip shows a few moves with this particular knife.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHmieya9GO0

[Anthony]

Thank you for the link. It does illustrate some of the advantages of the design. It appears that it would be best for extremely close engagements. Much closes than typical so called "knife range" with its short, curved blade.

- Anthony

[feudalson]

it depends opun your particualer striking pattern or instict.. if you inherintly have a stabbing based offense than the karambit is not the most suited blade you could carry ... on the other hand if you inherintly have a slashing offense(particurly a underhand style) than its hard to beat the effects and overall design of the karambit.. now from a tactical standpoint beyond the pure fighting aspects of the blade... i think a more traditional blade such as a drop point or tanto... something with a straite edge line would apply itself more easily to common cutting and penetrating task...

[alberich]

okiebuckout thats very nice, but does it work in speed? I mean, can you really parry a knife attack at a full speed like that?

BTW did you gentlemen ever considered trying a pushdagger or that new kabar pistol grip knife? I think these are really very dangerous.

[Mello2u]

After watching that video, I conclude that I would only survive a knife wielding assailant with that level of knife skill if I put him down with well placed shots before he got to me.

I wonder whether the 21 foot rule is valid, or has it been extended?

[buzz_knox]

After watching that video, I conclude that I would only survive a knife wielding assailant with that level of knife skill if I put him down with well placed shots before he got to me.

I wonder whether the 21 foot rule is valid, or has it been extended?


The 21 foot rule has always been more guidance/rule of thumb than anything.

As for knife fighting, I had an opportunity to train with Steve Tarani one time. As a class, we all agreed that our first move in a fight with him was 1) run away, 2) shoot him repeatedly, or 3) shoot ourselves if 1 or 2 was not viable. Option 3 would probably hurt less than what he could do.

When you are dealing with someone whose signature phrase is "3 and a half inches of steel through the eye socket is a great distraction tool," choosing the "I'm going to die anyway, might as well hurt less" seems like an option worth contemplating.

[alberich]

The 21 foot rule has always been more guidance/rule of thumb than anything.

It's about 10 meters (cca 30 ft) if you have a holstered pistol and the assailant starts at you with a knife in hands, and you are not surprised. IMHO the worst thing one can do when attacked by a knifer is to stand and reach for a gun. You will be likely bleeding before you draw. What I'd do (and practiced) would be to evade the initial attack somehow using bare hands or anything at hand at the moment (he will very likely cut your weak hand forearm but you should survive that), pass him and run away and while running try to pull the firearm, then eventualy turn and shoot if you can't outrun him.
I'd never try anything complicated or static (meaning: the fighters, namely the assailant stands on one spot) technique.

[thor3599]

"What I'd do (and practiced) would be to evade the initial attack somehow using bare hands or anything at hand at the moment (he will very likely cut your weak hand forearm but you should survive that), pass him and run away..."

In my opinion, turning one's back to an assailant armed with a deadly weapon, one that can kill with a single strike, is a bad idea. I do, however; agree with the line of thinking if you're not surprised. In the event that some foresight is available i.e., you see it coming, get control of the knife!! This can be accomplished by simply grabbing the persons wrist (ideally) or forearm of the armed hand (in a single knife only scenario, which is the most common). Once you have control of the limb, getting a knife away from an assailant is a relatively simple (not easy... simple) task if you have had any training. If you have not had any self defense training, running is probably your best option.

This opinion is based on the statistic that the majority of knife attacks that occur during the commision of a crime usually happen within the 21 foot perimeter to start and the victim is usually not surprised e.g., "Give me your wallet/money/whatever!!!" or "I'm gonna kill/hurt/cut you!!"

[AcridSaint]

The 21 foot rule is just the minimum distance someone needs to get to you before you can draw and shoot. The idea here is that if you have an aggressive attacker, you should be getting your weapon out before they are within 21 feet.

The kerambit is fine as an extension of hand to hand combat and could be used if you were escalating force from open-hand to a weapon. You are forced to get within contact distance to use it effectively. Personally, I never want to get that close to an assailant, even if we're in a knife fight. I don't have a force ladder to follow and I don't have to put myself into violent situations, so I stick to weapons that allow me distance. Run some force on force drills with someone that has no knife experience and then make your decision, it's not for everyone. It's not for me.

[KenpoTex]

When the Karambit "fad" hit several years ago, I bought one to train with just to familiarize myself with it. After experimenting with one for a while I just didn't feel that it offered any advantages over a conventional blade design.

The kerambit is fine as an extension of hand to hand combat and could be used if you were escalating force from open-hand to a weapon.
Make no mistake, a knife falls into the same category as a firearm. It is a deadly force tool and will be viewed as such.

[DT Guy]

Something I did about knife vs. gun at short range: Gun Zone Link (http://www.thegunzone.com/edged_weapons_defense.html)

Larry

[AcridSaint]

Make no mistake, a knife falls into the same category as a firearm. It is a deadly force tool and will be viewed as such.


I only mean that if you are transitioning from open hand then you are already in contact distance, so it becomes an area where a close-range only weapon is not as disadvantaged.

[rburch]

I carry a boker folding karambit sometimes. I prefer straight blade like my Cold Steel ti light, but I can't legally carry a 4" blade in some of the places I visit. I got the Boker to carry when I'm there. If I'm limited to a short blade, I prefer the Karambit.

I find them really suited for hooking parries or attacks to the arms. And yes, they do seem really dangerous at close range.

That said, I really prefer fighting at longer ranges with knives, so I have to alter my tactics a bit if I'm carrying the Karambit.

[Cremon]

mello2u, I am with you there. I am not a knife fighter. I am of decent size and weight (over 200 lbs and strong) but I am not taking on a knife fighter hand to hand. If someone comes at me with a knife, they are bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[The Great Mahoo]

If I'm limited to a short blade, I prefer the Karambit.

That's a great point. Karambits generally have a short blade while still being effective, making them legal where other knives may not be. I'd much rather have a 2" blade on a karambit than a 2" on a drop-point.

[KenpoTex]

I only mean that if you are transitioning from open hand then you are already in contact distance, so it becomes an area where a close-range only weapon is not as disadvantaged.
Gotcha.

If I'm limited to a short blade, I prefer the Karambit.

I find them really suited for hooking parries or attacks to the arms. And yes, they do seem really dangerous at close range.

That's a great point. Karambits generally have a short blade while still being effective, making them legal where other knives may not be. I'd much rather have a 2" blade on a karambit than a 2" on a drop-point.

In what specific way(s) do you (those that say you prefer a karambit) feel that it is superior to a conventional design of the same length? In other words, what can you accomplish (in terms of inflicting damage) with a karambit that you can't accomplish with a conventional blade?

[DT Guy]

The K seems best suited to moves where the opponent is trying to move AWAY-the hooking/grabbing blade in reverse grip makes it a natural for cuts pulling 'in' towards you.

Although I have no experience in actual use, that's my impression from handling one.

Larry

[The Great Mahoo]

In what specific way(s) do you (those that say you prefer a karambit) feel that it is superior to a conventional design of the same length? In other words, what can you accomplish (in terms of inflicting damage) with a karambit that you can't accomplish with a conventional blade?

The fighting techniques for a karambit are for extremely close range, where a smaller blade can be more helpful than a larger one, which could be turned aside a bit easier (although not without damage inflicted.) In other fighting styles, a larger 5+ blade on a drop/clip-point used for penetration thrusts would be hindered more by having a blade restriction.

So, I guess my point is, if you fight a style that the karambit lends itself, you may be less effected by a smaller blade requirement than other fighting styles that tend to rely on larger knives for depth of penetration (although you certainly can inflict harm stabbing with a 2-3" blade as well) If you are not trained on the karambit in the close slashing style, they probably aren't as much of a boon compared to other style knives.

[rburch]

In what specific way(s) do you (those that say you prefer a karambit) feel that it is superior to a conventional design of the same length? In other words, what can you accomplish (in terms of inflicting damage) with a karambit that you can't accomplish with a conventional blade?

The curve of the blade is better suited to cutting with raking or slashing attacks. If you look at a karambit, the blade design is a lot like a cat's claw.

A shorter clip point blade lacks leverage to cut deep into something, it angles in your hand, slides across the surface, and you get a shallow cut.

The Karambit angles in your hand as well, but with it's blade design, it wants to dig in as it runs across the surface.

I will admit I don't really prefer a karambit. The majority of my training comes from Fencing, so I'm much more comfortable with a long straight blade. Really if I had to get in a fight with blades, I'd want a rapier.

Since that's not practical, and neither is concealing a fixed blade fighting knife. I've chosen to carry a 4" blade folder.

If I'm where the 4" isn't kosher, then the karambit is my choice.

[shafter]

Where is it legal to carry such a knife for self defense and what advantages would it offer over a gun? Sounds sketchy to me

[AcridSaint]

I don't know about other states, but it's legal in NC and any knife is advantageous over a gun left in the car or at home, which is where you have to leave them often, seeing as how it's not legal to carry a firearm at a restaurant that serves alcohol, a parade, funeral procession, movie theater or any other place that charges for admission... etc.

[KenpoTex]

great mahoo & rburch,

fair enough...As I said, I really don't see the advantage. I think it is more likely that you will inflict meaningful damage with a thrust rather than a cut/slash (and you can always thrust in and rip out for more damage).
Since karambits are all but worthless for thrusting, I feel that they give up too much.
Of course, I also don't really buy into the "bio-mechanical cutting" a.k.a. "defanging the snake" thing that is so often touted by many blade practitioners.

To each their own though...

[Scattergun Bob]

As this is a firearms related forum, I state rule # 1 "have a gun, almost any gun will do." Though I carry a knife most every day, I subscribe to the thought of NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT!

Go9od Luck & Be safe

[rburch]

fair enough...As I said, I really don't see the advantage. I think it is more likely that you will inflict meaningful damage with a thrust rather than a cut/slash (and you can always thrust in and rip out for more damage).
Since karambits are all but worthless for thrusting, I feel that they give up too much.
Of course, I also don't really buy into the "bio-mechanical cutting" a.k.a. "defanging the snake" thing that is so often touted by many blade practitioners.

I wouldn't call them worthless, yes they aren't as suited to the thrust, but I can still thrust effectively with a karambit. It's a matter of angling the blade in your hand to present the point first, and then adding a hard flip with your wrist to rotate the blade in.

Really I think the Karambit works really well with the thrust and rip idea.

I am confused by the "bio-mechanical cutting" a.k.a. "defanging the snake" since I haven't heard those terms before. I'm thinking it's attacking the weapon hand?

If that's the case, its a valid target, and really a smart target. I know my first attacks always tend toward the weapon hands, since it's the easiest to attack with the least danger to yourself.

[DT Guy]

As this is a firearms related forum, I state rule # 1 "have a gun, almost any gun will do." Though I carry a knife most every day, I subscribe to the thought of NEVER BRING A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT!


Do some close range force-on-force with a good knifer and you'll see why they usually say, 'don't take a gun to a knife fight.'

Larry

[KenpoTex]

Do some close range force-on-force with a good knifer and you'll see why they usually say, 'don't take a gun to a knife fight.'

Thank you.

[Cremon]

Do some close range force-on-force with a good knifer and you'll see why they usually say, 'don't take a gun to a knife fight.

I agree if the person with the knife is close to you (and they WILL have to get close to you to have that advantage). In order for that to work they have to either know or suspect that you have a gun (if they KNOW you have one, it's likely they'd avoid the confrontation because most people with a knife won't go after someone who they know has a gun unless they are 100% sure about the outcome - I don't care how good you think you are with one).

I personally would not try to draw my gun if I was being mugged by someone right on top of me with a knife but I WILL if he is not right on top of me - and I will shoot immediately without a word. I am too old for any more arse kickings and a knife is a deadly weapon - that one is easy.

[The Great Mahoo]

great mahoo & rburch,

fair enough...As I said, I really don't see the advantage. I think it is more likely that you will inflict meaningful damage with a thrust rather than a cut/slash (and you can always thrust in and rip out for more damage).
Since karambits are all but worthless for thrusting, I feel that they give up too much.
Of course, I also don't really buy into the "bio-mechanical cutting" a.k.a. "defanging the snake" thing that is so often touted by many blade practitioners.

To each their own though...

Again, it really depends on one's fighting style. Thrusting is typically considered to be the fastest way to stop an opponent, since with slashing you have to wait for them to bleed out, during which time they might continue to fight; with a pierce to a major organ or nerve conduit, they are quickly incapacitated. However, it can be much easier to land slashes than a precision pierce, not to mention having the appropriate force to penetrate the body's protection of such vital areas.

But don't discount a good slashing attack. The Karambit in particular is designed to bite in, terring flesh with quick swipes to typically accessable areas in a close-fight. It is very easy to sever the femoral or brachial arteries with a quick attack, either of which will result in extreme blood loss and incapacitation or death in moments without immediate treatment. Keep in mind the tearing of muscles and tendons, which can disable limbs and one's ability to fight without inflicting death to the aggressor (though persisting legal troubles would be likely :rolleyes:).

Please note that I understand knife techniques and have some training with them, but by no means would I consider myself a knife fighter. I do, however, recognize that a knife is a better option in some cases than a gun, especially in crowded areas where a stray shot or over-pen could result in accidental killing of non-involved.

[DT Guy]

I agree if the person with the knife is close to you (and they WILL have to get close to you to have that advantage). In order for that to work they have to either know or suspect that you have a gun (if they KNOW you have one, it's likely they'd avoid the confrontation because most people with a knife won't go after someone who they know has a gun unless they are 100% sure about the outcome - I don't care how good you think you are with one).

I personally would not try to draw my gun if I was being mugged by someone right on top of me with a knife but I WILL if he is not right on top of me - and I will shoot immediately without a word. I am too old for any more arse kickings and a knife is a deadly weapon - that one is easy.

I understand your opinion-and I shared it until my first encounter with a really good knifer. Do a bit of research into things like the Tueller drill (sp?) and get a chance to watch 'Surviving Edged Weapon Attacks' by Caliber Press. You'll realize that you won't see the knife before you feel the knife, if there's any skill involved.

Again, force on force is where you can prove this to yourself. You could also take a look at this LINK (http://www.thegunzone.com/edged_weapons_defense.html)to see some of the problems with facing a knife with a gun.

Larry

[Cremon]

DT_Guy - I understand your position but I am as good at fighting with a knife as I am at building starships, hehe. So my opinion comes from the odds I face.

If I use a knife to fight a guy with a knife who knows how to use it there is a 99% chance I will end up face down on the concrete. I can tell you that the odds will be much better if I use my S&W 4516. That is why I carry a gun instead of a knife, and why I'll use a gun against a guy with a knife instead of a knife. For me the math is very easy.

[AcridSaint]

Sorry, that was the wrong thread.

[_Muad'dib_]

I've thought alot about both styles but don't have any experience training with either. I have spent a short amount of time learning some basics in Escrima and also a short bit of time in Krav Maga.

I want someone to critique my ideas about both styles. I guess that straight blade is much better if you have a chance to draw before you are attacked. You will then have a chance to keep your attacker at bay. Straight blades definitely have the advantage in thrusting. And thrusting provides the largest vital target areas. My thoughts though would be that even if you do get a stab into an attackers chest/stomach, etc, it won't actually stop their attack. And if they have a weapon themselves, stopping the attack has got to be one of the most critical aspects of our defense. In Krav Maga we were taught to disable the attacker as quickly as possible. By just thrusting with a straight blade I'm wondering how quickly you can actually stop the attack. With a karambit it would seem that your attacks have much more force and stopping power by severing the working muscles and tendons of an attacker. And I personally think that disabling him will lead to a quicker victory by ourselves than a stab that can take some time to bleed out. I've shot deer with a bow and even after a shot through a lung and into the liver the deer was able to run over a quarter of a mile. Though deer may have a bit more endurance after such a wound than we would, surely there is a lesson to be learned. And if you take into account that fact that with adrenaline/drugs/alcohol in someone's system numbing the pain, a thrust into their chest could still be a bit of a waiting game for them to bleed out.

Obviously you could use a straight blade to disable an attacker but I think you're ability to strike with force and power would be greatly diminished as compared to a karambit. In my mind it comes down to which style has more stopping power. If you compare it to handguns, you could say that a .22 through the vitals will stop someone just like a .45. But one of them will stop them much sooner. BUT, I've had no experience with knife training other than a bit of defense in Krav Maga so I'm just talking out my thoughts. Just mall ninjaing it up :) Feel free to correct me.

[AcridSaint]

If you keep your knife sharp, it will not require power for most cuts. A straight blade can cut tendons just as easily as a hooked blade. You can use all of the motions that a kerambit users except for a straight punching stab, which is not something I favor anyhow.

One might feel that the kerambit gives you an edge up close - perhaps it will. But, for me, the goal of every fight is to get away and that means keeping distance. Cut yourself free and start scanning the area, now if there's a second scumbag what do you have to keep him out of contact distance?

[Erik]

Tactical advantages? None. That is not to say that if one is versed in styles suited to the use of karambits that one could not get the job done.