Unknown 20mm Cannon shell

[FlexiBull]

Hi folks

I'm new here, so this is an introduction aswell as a question.

I have an unknown cannon shell and I was wondering if any one might recognise the type, there is not much to go one, only two small "L" "L" under the fuse.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/DiggerDan/P2230113.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/DiggerDan/P2230114.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/DiggerDan/P2240117-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/DiggerDan/P2230115.jpg


Also I need to know the state of the fuse, it looks solid metal, is it?


Thanks in advance

FlexiBull

[SDC]

The thickened forward part of the shell is a "bore-rider" type, and the overall length is fairly long , so my first impression is that it would likely be European (probably an Oerlikon or licenced copy). Both sides used these during WW2, with the Germans using them in 20mm cannon on the ME-109 and FW-190, the Japanese using them in some of their Zeros and other designs, and the British using a longer version in some of their Spitfires. There are a couple of cartridge collectors at http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm who specialize in these sorts of things who can probably give you a definitive answer.

[Storm27m]

Any stamped markings on or slightly above the copper rotating band? Look very closely. Sometimes if you wet the area, worn stampings will be slightly more visible.

[FlexiBull]

No I can't see any markings. There is extensive corrosion of the shell which makes it difficult. The inside of the shell looks like it has never been filled. There is a residue of grease inside.

The fuse seems solid is it likely to contain any explosive material, the word fuse worries me a bit :eek:

[Harley Nolden]

FLEXIBULL
Take a #2 graphite pencil and mark over the stampings. This may bring bring them to a readable state.

HJN

[James K]

It looks like a dummy shell with a solid metal fuse.

Jim

[Gbro]

I have a 20MM round my Father brought back from "The War".
http://www.nashwauk.net/20MM.html

Markings on the projectile,

W P
20 MM.MK3.MOD 2
3.42

Markings on the case (head stamp),

NOEN 145 1942 20MM-MK.2

The fuse and primer (berdan) have been removed.

I have never researched this Cartridge. I just have an idea it was a round they fired when guarding the merchant ship he was assigned to.

[Rampant_Colt]

Very cool!

Ok, my turn:
http://i42.tinypic.com/wjxphs.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2h4di0w.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/2eupzs5.jpg

on 20mm HE shell: MK3 9 J 352

base of casing: E.K. 1944 20MM MK4


I polished the 20mm when i was a kid using Brasso :rolleyes:

Got the 20mm shell from my Grandfather who received it as a gift from my Great-Uncle who served in North Africa, Italy and Normandy with the "Big Red One" 1st Division, 16th Infantry.
Hoorah!

[Mike Irwin]

The shell marked NOEN stands for Naval Ordnance Engineering Laboratory, which was located at the Dahlgren Weapons Center in Maryland.

Both Gbro's and Rampant Colt's shells are for the American version of the Oerlikon 20mm gun, which was used extensively by the Navy as last-ditch defense against aircraft and small boats.


Flexibull, I believe that your shell is also a shell for the American version of the Oerlikon gun.

What is a bit confusing, though, is that while it appears never to have been fired as the driving band is not engraved, the shell appears to have been either under ground or under water where it rusted and pitted.

My guess is that it may have been discarded and pulled out of a trash heap on a military base.

I'm also pretty certain that your projectile was never designed to be loaded; it is, in essence, a dummy used for training purposes.

[Gbro]

Thanks Mike,

I googled this for an hour (dial up):o and didn't find much technical info on the cartridge. I am interested in the driving ring, and there was some mention of electric firing. This case has the berdan design, although there appears to be a band inside the primer pocket. It to me looks like the primer was cut out. ???
Then there was mention on another link about these cartridges, or similar ones needing to be greased???

[Mike Irwin]

Can you take a clear picture of the primer pocket?

E.K. is Eastman Kodak company, which made 20mm Oerlikon cases during the war. I believe that is all that they made, 20mm brass cases; no projectiles or anything like that.

I'll have to do a little digging around, but I THINK that the American Oerlikon shells could be used in either electrically or impact fired weapons.

[grymster2007]

A while back, I posted on the spent 20mm cases I came across. Funny that this thread pops up now, because just last week I finished making my dummy projectiles to mount in my spent cases. Mine seem to be 20mmX110s manufactured by Eastman Kodak. Anyway, I made the dummies out of ABS plastic and will paint them to (hopefully) look kinda real. Maybe Gbro can explain how the markings on his projectile are laid out?

Here's my thread:

grymster's 20mm thread (http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308331&highlight=20mm)

[grymster2007]

I actually painted one of my dummies, just to fool around. I'd like the other three to look as original as I can get them.

I used the red for the rotating band, but need to find a copper color paint. That's a machined blank next to it.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43852&stc=1&d=1236792569

[Gbro]

My camera and I are not fully in harmony when it comes to macro pictures. It my be old enough to not be capable of good ones.
This picture of gymsters case kind of answers my primer question.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3016165&postcount=13
But this is the best I could do,
Gmyster the markings are,
I will put asterisk in to space the markings as they appear. The W P is 1 7/8 inches from shell tip,
*****W P
20 MM.MK3.MOD 2
*****3.42
the letters are .160 in height
the periods belong, discard the asterisk's.

[grymster2007]

Thanks Gbro! I take it the carriage returns belong also?

[Rampant_Colt]

http://i41.tinypic.com/33erde9.jpg

[Gbro]

Gymster,
That is correct I put the asterisks in to keep alignment.
I tried another dozen closeups with my camera and gave up.
Ramp, that sure is a nice clear picture. Now I know what to get the Mrs. for Christmas, It could come early;);)

[Mike Irwin]

Gbro,

The insert ring in your case appears to be brass with a split at the bottom.

If it is metal, it's not an electrically primed case. Those cases have an insulator sleeve of rubber, bakelite plastic, or some other non conducting compound in the primer pocket.

I don't know why the primer pocket might have been sleeved

[Rampant_Colt]

It's my uneducated guess that Gbro's 20mm is electric-primed and is merely missing the gasket, or insulator sleeve that Mike Irwin mentioned above. Note how much larger the primer pocket on his case is compared to mine. My 1944 20mm appears to be a standard impact-primed casing.

Good article on AN/M3 and M24 20mm deck gun HERE (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_20mm_mk16.htm). And even more information HERE (http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_2cm-70_mk234.htm)

The AN/M3 gun used lubricated, percussion-primed ammunition. The M24 aircraft gun was a further modification that fired electric-primed ammunition, which the Air Force considered to be more reliable than percussion ammunition. All of these guns operated with an open breech and had a gas-assisted, blowback operation, with the recoil motion being used to feed the next round of ammunition.

[Gbro]

My niece came by for a fish fry and has a $1200 Canon that worked a might better.
One shot from each end:)
I would guess the nick in the insert was from decapping the spent primer?
In the chart you linked us to the propellant is listed as "NC tube", is that Cordite?
On the projectile the letters WP, I don't see anything in the link about that. Why am I thinking
White Phosphorous? (willy Pete)

[grymster2007]

Your niece took some nice photos!

[Mike Irwin]

OK, yes, the nick in the liner could easily be from the primer being dug out. I never even thought of that.

NC Tube very likely means nitrocellulose tube (shaped) powder.

No American ammunition was ever loaded with cordite. That was a British thing, developed there and used almost exclusively in the Empire.

In the United States we used our own forms of nitrocellulose powders.

[James K]

In the face of all that knowledge, I feel humbled but will contribute my bit.

Cordite "powder" is a double based powder, containing both nitrocellulose and nitroglycerin; it is the latter that makes it highly erosive. It is produced in the form of longish strings (hence the name). In the .303 British, it was loaded before the case was necked down.

In the U.S., DuPont produced both nitrocellulose and double base powder. When the government forced a breakup of the DuPont monopoly, DuPont kept the nitrocellulose powders and black powder. Hercules was created out of the double base powder section, and all its powders were double base. Atlas, another creature of the breakup, got the industrial explosives part, and made dynamite and blasting powder.

Jim

[Gbro]

Thanks Gentlemen for the info,

Question 1.
When you say erosive, do you mean the powder in storage, unfired?
Question 2.
What kind of powder is currently used in a 16" gun. I have heard former sailors state the guns still use Black powder. I know there is a B/P booster used but is the powder used a single base NC or some kind of double base? And, Is the powder still called Black as a slang name?

There was a story about the powder becoming unstable in a ships magazine when it was in for repairs some years back and the term B/P was used. I questioned that because I had read in a gun rag years back that referred to powder used was Cordite, or like Cordite.

Again, Thanks:)

[radom]

The 16 inch 50 cal used a single base powder called SPD for Smokless Powder-Diphenylamine. It was adopted in somthing like 1910 or so. Full charge would have been 660 pounds of SPD with around 4.5 pounds of BP as a igniter. They also used some what was called Cordite N that was imported from canada but mainly used in reduced charges. Cordite is "erosive" in nature as in it burns bores out faster than other powders and why the USN considered cordite not satisfactory for use and only for reduced loads for war emergency.

[FlexiBull]

Thanks for the info guys and it's good to see that my thread has created additional interest.

I have been posting these images an other forums and have been told that the round is most probably 20mm Hispano or Oerlikon. it is likely to be an example of the Semi-Armour Piercing Incendiary (SAPI) projectile for the 20mm Hispano aircraft gun or the 20mm Oerlikon AA gun. This used a standard HE shell (filled with incendiary material) and a solid nose cap of hardened steel instead of a fuse. The incendiary was ignited by the force of impact, with the aid of a detonator under the nose piece.

Now I need to do the reverse of Grymster and find a cartridge case. Any help to find one in the UK :D

[FlexiBull]

Thanks for the info guys and it's good to see that my thead has created additional interest.

I have been posting these images an other forums and have been told that the round is most probably 20mm Hispano or Oerlikon. it is likely to be an example of the Semi-Armour Piercing Incendiary (SAPI) projectile for the 20mm Hispano aircraft gun or the 20mm Oerlikon AA gun. This used a standard HE shell (filled with incendiary material) and a solid nose cap of hardened steel instead of a fuse. The incendiary was ignited by the force of impact, with the aid of a detonator under the nose piece.

Now I need to do the reverse of Grymster and find a cartridge case. Any help to find one in the UK :D

[grymster2007]

Now I need to do the reverse of Grymster and find a cartridge case. Grymster cheated. :) I originally thought I'd machine my projectiles from steel or even aluminum. But my lathe is pretty wimpy and I didn't want to take the time, hence the ABS plastic. I'm planning to paint a more realistic one after I make a stencil for the lettering that Gbro provided.

Funny what I'll come up with to avoid the honey-do list. :)

[TEDDY]

Its an oerlikon.the hispan is shorter.I have a like new one with explosive still in it.and the shell.I will have to go in shop and check it out.those WW2 picks you see with the small guns with the drums are the 20s.I used to handle them
as we had three as guards at our air base, protection from subs and there was a browning 37 mm next to us the army had. :rolleyes::eek::D