?Smokesacking problems with the Sig P-239?

[sneaky pete]

old Sneaky Pete here: My wife has a Sig P-239 and has problems with it "Smokestacking". I watched her shooing it over a long time and at 1st I told her that she was "Limp Wristing" it but after I shot it several times it "Smokestacked" on me also BUT not as frequetly. I DON'T Limp Wrist. I kind of vaguely remember reading/hearing something about the P-239 having some problems with "Smoklestacking" but I can't remember if it was gun or magazine related. I called Sig-Saur in N.J. but all I could get from them was the "No Problems with our gun--But send it in for a "Check-up" " answer. If this problem ha been gone over extensively in the past I appologise for the reduncancy. So do I send it in along with the magazines for their "Check-up" or do I "****-Can " it and get an H&K instead for her??? I appreciate any and all commentary/links for a solution. THANX--SNEAKY

[FLJim]

sneaky pete wrote:
My wife has a Sig P-239 and has problems with it "Smokestacking". I watched her shooing it over a long time and at 1st I told her that she was "Limp Wristing" it but after I shot it several times it "Smokestacked" on me also BUT not as frequetly.Insufficient lube. Sigs like to run "wet." Particularly new Sigs. (It seems Nitron, the blackened finish Sig uses, absorbs lube at first? Dunno. That's what a friend who owns lots of Sigs told me, and it seemed to have happened to me.)

My brand-spankin'-new Sig P239 SAS did the same thing to me on its 2nd or 3rd outing. Didn't suspect lube at first because I knew I'd lubed it thoroughly at the previous cleaning, two weeks before. Lo and behold: Rails were dry as a bone. (In Sig terms, anyway.) Dabbed a bit of TW-25B on the rails, spread it around, put the pistol back together and the problem went away, never to return.

Btw: I think the term you were seeking is "stove-pipe"ing :)

[sneaky pete]

OLD S/P back: Boy--It's Hell to get OLD. C R S and can't spell either. I don't know where that term came from???? I guess that I'll blame it on my wife- that's what she's there for, Ain't she???That sounds like something to try. Would you care to recommend a Lube?? I've got that "White" lithium grease that I use on my Garand, and some MOLY paste that I use on the bore and moving parts on my AR or Just some regular Gun Oil like REM-Oil or Hoppes "Elite" gun oil. In any case THANX for that tip. SNEAKY

[chris in va]

FWIW, my friend's brand-new 229 did the same thing for a couple hundred rounds. As you can imagine he was royally upset having spent about $800 on the gun.

Eventually the issue went away. Seems the spring needs breaking in, not sure why.

[AK103K]

Boy--It's Hell to get OLD. C R S and can't spell either.
Dont feel bad, you aint the only one! :)

I never had any issues with my P239 (357SIG). I do clean after every outing. The whole gun gets Eezox and and I "lightly" lube the rails with mil-comm TW-25b right before reassembly. Do the same with all my other SIG's and never had any issues with them either.



If you do give her a good cleaning and a little lube and its still going on for both of you, then I'd send it back to SIG. I'm sure they'll make it right.

[Creature]

Sigs like to run "wet."

:confused:

[chris in va]

I think he means extra lube, more than usual. Haven't found that to be true with my old 220, it runs regardless.

[Creature]

I know what he meant. But it is absolutely wrong that Sigs need to run "wet".

[Tom2]

My 239 has run without a bobble, but I do check the lube before shooting. I use something like FP-10 on it or even Breakfree would work. Lot of that oil stuff evaporates or runs out over time in storage though. Lot of folks have said that Sigs like to be wet. Makes me wonder why they don't put an oil pump in them, then. Perhaps grease on the rails and regular lubes on the barrel hood and top of the hammer? Mine was used so it must have been "broken in" before I got it.

[varoadking]

I know what he meant. But it is absolutely wrong that Sigs need to run "wet".

Tell that to the folks at the SiG Academy and they'll ley you know that you are the one that is wrong. It's part of their presentation...

[guypowell]

NO, it's not wrong, SIGs like to run wet. The quickest way to damage SIG parts, especially their rails, is lack of lube. Personally, I use Eezox and Slide Glide, but whatever a person prefers, use it generously. Also, new SIGs, at least some of them, need a break-in period. Another thing that COULD cause stove piping is under powered ammo.
If one doesn't believe that SIGs need to be well lubed just check with SIG.

[alloy]

they ship with a small tube of mil-comm, or at least they used to back in 06 and 07.

[FLJim]

sneaky pete wrote:
That sounds like something to try. Would you care to recommend a Lube??I use TW-25B on parts that slide against one another and Wilson's Combat Oil on pivoting parts. On the slide and rails I put three or four small dabs spaced along the length and spread it out more-or-less evenly with a small, inexpensive artist's paintbrush.

[Creature]

The quickest way to damage SIG parts, especially their rails, is lack of lube.

Any semi-auto will be damaged because of a lack of lube. But to run a sig "wet" implies to many that the gun is dripping wet. That is false. Every manual from Sig that I have only ever specifies:

External metal surfaces:
After each use, wipe all metal surfaces with a cloth lightly soaked with a
lubricant preservative. This will remove any foreign material and preserve the
finish of the pistol. Lightly lubricate the recoil spring (3), recoil spring guide (2)
and frame rails before reassembling the pistol.

Go figure. Not one single mention of "wet" anywhere in the manual.

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsContent/documents/OwnerManual/CLASSICPISTOLOM.pdf

[FLJim]

Creature wrote:
I know what he meant. But it is absolutely wrong that Sigs need to run "wet".You're more than welcome to argue that one with a Sig armorer or the folks over on Sigforum, if you like.

[Creature]

No need. Its there in black and white. I am pretty sure that the writers of the manual at least ran it by the armorers before they published it. Every Sig that I have ever owned (or have seen shoot) ran 100% reliable with just a light lubing...as per the manual. Go figure.

[guypowell]

many that the gun is dripping wet.

Just so anyone beyond the 5th grade in school doesn't misunderstand what I mean by the term, "wet," I mean WELL LUBED. I never said anything about dripping wet. How do you know what "many" think? Maybe you think that "wet" means dripping with oil, if so, you're quite wrong.

[Creature]

Okay, then please differentiate the differences between "wet" (as defined by the Sig Academy instructors) and what is written by Sig in their manual, specifically: "lightly lube". Is that one drop, two drops...ten drops? Please be specific. We 5th graders really want to know.

[guypowell]

Argue with someone else. I'm tired of playing. Better yet, go over to SIGforum and try your games there.

[Creature]

Yet another "expert" who cant support his claim with written documentation.

Here's the link again to the owners manual for the P239:
http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/CmsC...ICPISTOLOM.pdf

[greyeyezz]

So if my Sig isn't well lubed i can expect it to be unreliable? Ridicules.

[fastbolt]

When I attended the Sig Sauer pistol armorer class the instructor was rather emphatic throughout the 2-day class about sufficiently lubricating Sig Sauer pistols. He also referred to them as being 'wet guns'. The guideline he used to identify sufficient lubrication was that the presence of lubricant must be able to be verified visually and by touch.

One of the questions on the written test at the end of the class was even a fill-in-the-blank question regarding identifying proper lubrication, and the answers had to be along the lines of by "sight" & "touch", or "visually" & "physically".

We were repeatedly warned that shooting a Sig Sauer pistol without lubrication was risking damage to the gun. Shooting one with insufficient lubrication was risking functioning problems and accelerated wear.

You can view some of the short videos located on the Sig Sauer Customer Service website in the Maintenance Guides section, as well as download a .pdf format Preventive Maintenance Guide.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/MaintenanceGuides.aspx

Some of the language used in the written Preventive Maintenance guide regarding lubrication is:
"A weapon is not considered properly lubricated unless the lubricant’s presence can be visually and physically verified by the operator."

and

"Lubricant/preservative products are available in a number of different
consistencies that range from grease, to liquid, to dry, all of which have application. Be sure you read the manufacturer's directions for use and evaluate your own needs pertaining to the actual application of the pistol."

and

"It is the weapon operator’s responsibility to maintain the weapon in a state of maximum operational readiness. This requires cleaning and lubrication at regular intervals. Frequent checks by visually and physically verifying the operational state of the weapon should be performed between maintenance intervals."

and

"The definition for preventative maintenance may be applied to any piece of equipment. Most manufacturers will indicate, however, that a majority of pistol problems occur primarily to improperly cleaned or improperly lubricated pistols. The most prevalent secondary problem is unsatisfactory ammunition. Each of these problems can be eliminated by educating the field user and enforcing preventative maintenance policies."

and

NOTE: The pistol is not considered clean "unless the magazine is clean also".

It makes for interesting reading, especially for owners/users of Sig Sauer pistols.

FWIW, during my time as an armorer I've had the opportunity to observe problems caused by both insufficient and excessive lubrication.

Just my thoughts. I'm nobody's expert. Neither am I a licensed gunsmith or a technician employed by Sig Sauer. I'm just a retired LE armorer. Obviously, nobody can tell via the internet what's happening with someone's gun. You can certainly have it inspected by the manufacturer.

Luck to you.

Best regards.

[Creature]

We were repeatedly warned that shooting a Sig Sauer pistol without lubrication was risking damage to the gun. Shooting one with insufficient lubrication was risking functioning problems and accelerated wear.

This is a far cry from the claim that all Sigs require being run "wet". The manual's call for lightly lubricating the rails is also a far cry from "insufficient lubrication".

[fastbolt]

Creature, I'm sending you a PM which might interest you. ;)

fb

[tjhands]

Jesus, Creature, do you really have this little to do today? :confused:

If your only source of information on a given firearm is the owner's manual, then you are going to miss out on quite a bit.

Most knowledgable people would call a SIG a "wet" gun and a GLOCK a "dry" gun, just as most would call an AR15/M16 a "wet" gun and an AK47 a "dry" gun.

[holypaper]

Creature: But to run a sig "wet" implies to many that the gun is dripping wet.

Here's the problem with this discussion. Creature seems to be taking this term as an absolute, rather than a relative term. I don't think anyone is recommending keeping a Sig dripping wet, since the Sig site expressly warns against lubricating to the point of dripping. In this case, wet simply means more than average. At least that's how I see it.

[FLJim]

holypaper wrote:
In this case, wet simply means more than average. At least that's how I see it.And that would be correct. Problem is: Some people don't know how to see things in other than black and white, and some people don't know how to admit they were wrong--even after they've clearly been proven so.

[fastbolt]

Yeah, semantics sometimes get the better of us, even when we're speaking the same language. ;)

The way folks talk about 'wet' or 'dry' guns can be counter-productive to a degree if everyone isn't understanding the intended meaning of the terms being used at the time of the conversation or discussion.

In my last Glock recert armorer class, for example, it was mentioned that Glocks are not intended to be fired when 'dry', or not lubricated, despite internet experts to the contrary. ;)

Sometimes words mean different things to different folks.

I like the description I was once given where 'wet' basically meant that the metal surfaces which moved against each other, and exhibited wear markings indicative of friction contact, were supposed to be lubricated so that they were 'wet', but that the amount of lubrication present wasn't supposed to be such that it would 'run' off when subjected to gravity.

If you tip the slide, frame or barrel and gravity causes the oil to run and drip off the metal, you might've gotten a little over zealous in application of lubricant ...

Lubrication has a couple of purposes described in the Sig Sauer armorer manual. The first is to provide a molecular barrier between metal parts to reduce friction and prevent solidification of firing residue. The other purpose is to maintain the integrity of the pistol's finish through a similar molecular barrier between the pistol's surface area and the environment. It goes on to say that semiautomatic pistols require lubrication in order to ensure consistent, reliable functioning.

Sig does specifically warn against over-lubricating ... as well as warn the user against insufficiently lubricating.

In the Cleaning sections of the armorer manual devoted to the larger pistol models there's a section titled "Lubrication Specifications", and it runs for a long paragraph. The beginning and ending are in somewhat larger font and bold print. They state, "DO NOT FIRE THE PISTOL WITHOUT LUBRICATION" & "Do not over-lubricate the weapon". The capitalization emphasis in the beginning statement is as stated in the manual text, BTW. The rest of the paragraph lists the areas to be lubricated and the amounts of lubricant to be used on service weapons. The expressions "several small drops of oil" & "several drops of oil" are used in the instructions, as well as "lightly lubricate" when referring to the exterior of the barrel and some contact surfaces, and hand-cycling the slide in order to evenly disperse the lubricant is recommended.

This language used in the P239 section of the armorer manual is essentially a reprint of the Preventive Maintenance Guide.

Making sure the lubricant (of whatever type is selected) remains present in sufficient amounts can be an issue with some folks, though.

I can't count the number of times one of our folks who was experiencing a functioning issue related to an insufficiently lubricated weapon was adamant they had lubricated their weapons ... while I was standing there looking at an obviously dry-as-a-bone weapon ... but then looked a bit abashed when I asked how many months it had been since they had checked the lubrication (hint: checked it and reapplied as necessary).

Other times I walked by the cleaning station as they were cleaning and lubricating their weapon to return to duty and saw them "lubricate" their weapon by applying an itsy-bitsy fly-speck of oil to some arbitrary spot on their frame rails, one so small I needed a magnifying glass to see it, even while wearing my reading glasses. :rolleyes:

However, over-lubricating a weapon can cause its own share of functioning issues and grief, too. I've had to resolve even more maintenance related problems caused by an excessive amount of solvent, CLP, oil, grease, etc remaining in the weapon ... and ending up in places where it wasn't intended.

The video links to the Sig Sauer website in their Customer Service section and the maintenance guide ought to act in concert with their owner manual to answer most questions. I'd think asking to speak to someone in customer service might help clarify any concerns not addressed, or perhaps not clearly understood, within the printed and video materials.

Having them examine the gun and magazines might allow them to find something which might require repair with the gun itself, though. Letting them inspect the gun (and magazines) in the same condition as when the functioning issues occurred, as opposed to 'cleaning & lubricating' the empty gun before returning it, might let them form an opinion about your lubrication practices, too.

[fastbolt]

FWIW, I'd think it would be polite to lighten up a bit on the comments offered by Creature. He was asking a very reasonable question based upon his understanding of the provided owner manual.

Yes, he might change his perspective a little after viewing the linked video presentations and reading the Preventive Maintenance Guide. They have more opportunity to explain things than in the basic owner manual.

He might also have a different opinion if he were given the opportunity to sit through the 2-day armorer class and listen to the way maintenance guidelines are presented, too. In the classroom the students have the opportunity to ask questions, especially clarifying questions. I certainly had the chance to have some things cleared up by asking for it to be explained in a different manner.

It's not unreasonable to think that the standard owner manual may not go into the amount of detail offered in an armorer manual, or even the preventive maintenance guide info, when it comes to maintenance-specific information.

Participating in discussion is one of the ways we all learn things, right?

[Shadi Khalil]

Tell that to the folks at the SiG Academy and they'll ley you know that you are the one that is wrong. It's part of their presentation...

Your wrong.

"If you can see it and feel it, you've got sufficent lube"

Thats what Sig says, nothing about "running wet"

I think that goes for any semi auto.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/MaintenanceGuides.aspx

[sneaky pete]

old S/P Back for final thoughts: 1st THANX to all of you for your comments. some of the things I learned from the exchanges were Generally the Sig Sauer pistols are more maintenance/lubrication demanding then my other semi-auto handguns ( H&K USP 9mm, Springfield Arms 1911A-1 .45 acp, Bulgarian Makarov 9x18, Walther P-38/P1-9mm, Mauser C-96 Broomhandle-9mm, CZ Strakonice 6.35mm, Ruger Mk-II .22 Gov Target, and Raven .22LR) None of which have Stovepiped on me ever. Altho the Sig Sauer P-239 is considerd a "Premium" hi-end pistol it's possible that it wasn't the "Wiseist" choice for me or my wife who are "Casual" pistol shooters ( it generally sits on the bed headboard most of the time) or for Self Defense when we go up to the Mainland ( in a S/D situation the chambered round would fire D/A and then the next round possibly might Stovepipe leaving you with a hand full of ****--not Kool) We usually get up to a range about 2wice a year for Familiarity and handgun practice usually firing 100>150 rounds( the closest range is 150 miles from Big Pine and it's ILLEGAL to discharge a Firearm in the County). While the Sig P-239 may be a superior choice for LE and other Duty type applications I don't feel that it was the smartest choice for my/our situation due to the more stringent maint/lube requirements.
I have contacted Sig Sauer in N.H. and got an RA to send it in for a "Tune-Up", IF after I get it back and my wife still has the same stovepipe problem then I'll ****can it (take it to a Gun-Show and trade it in for an H&K ). Again THANX--SNEAKY :confused:

[P35]

Hi
I have a 239 in 9mm. It's my carry pistol and has been for 12 years. I have never had a malfunction of any kind. I clean it with Hoppes#9 and lube with Breakfree CLP. I would experiment with some different ammo, or magazine before I started looking at the pistol. That said,I guess you can get a lemon with anything.
Good luck

Good luck

[JDG]

I had a P239, and this may be the exception, and not the rule, but my slide to frame fit was terribly loose. Looser than any semiauto that I have owned. I can see how running one dry could lead to problems, as aluminum and stainless steel can gall easily. As loose as mine was, it was still a tackdriver, and barrel to slide lockup, was very tight. Weak ammo would cause the stovepiping, or over sprung recoil spring. Good luck with your issues, and keep us informed.:)

[supergas452M]

Guys, have you not realized that Creature is the resident firearms guru? He is all knowing, please don't question him. He has a comment on every thread and never found a theory he couldn't oppose.

[sneaky pete]

old Sneaky back: as said above got the P-239 back from Sig -Sent it in along with the 4 mags and a note for testing/repair/adjust. The repair order notes stated that they cleaned/lubed and test fied it and could NOT repeat the results(stovepiping)- 2 different shooters. Upon inspecting the pistol I did notice that the Lubercation present was quite a bit more apparent than what I'm used to use. This morning I called up Sig and talked to a C/S rep-the Gunsmiths aren't avlb- and commented about my observation about the lube quanity thing and the C/S rep did say that all Sigs like a lot (MY TERM NOT THEIRS) of lube. Lube advisement Break-Free CLP or Mil-Tec-1. It was suggested to use 124gr ammo BUT the 115ge shouldn't cause an problems. Seems that the Mag springs were a little tighter than I remember???? So the Wife and I are off to the range to try out her "Wet-Lubed" pistol. Hope it works CUZ @ the West Palm Gun Show on Valentines Day she saw a nice H&K USP compact 9 that she liked but it was about $1K. THANX--SNEAKY :)

[Shadi Khalil]

Sneaky,

I can understand your frustrations with having a pistol thats not working. I think because of this thread you got the wrong impressions about Sigs.

some of the things I learned from the exchanges were Generally the Sig Sauer pistols are more maintenance/lubrication demanding then my other semi-auto handguns

In experience it has been the exact opposite. My Sig is the most least maintance demanding pistol I have ever owned. Early on I did have a slide lock problem, it would not stay open on the last round. I found out later that I had a broken roll pin. It seems that it was broken for quite some time and it was not till it had worked its way out that I noticed it. Basically the pistol operated for quite some time with a broken roll pin, aside from the slide not locking back. I sent in to Sig and in under two weeks they had the pistol repaired and returned to me. They relaced the roll pin, magazine catch and springs, detailed stripped and cleaned the pistol, replaced my mag springs on all my mags (I sent 5 in with the gun) test fired and returned. With the pistol rapidly approching its 4,000'th round, I have not expereinced a single issue since.

Seems that the Mag springs were a little tighter than I remember????

Loose mags springs could have very well caused your issue. If they were replaced they may have not listed it on the repair invoice. I was able to talk to my smith and it was then he told me about other things being replaced and repaired that were not list on the work order.


It was suggested to use 124gr ammo BUT the 115ge shouldn't cause an problems

124gr is great, its my choice for SD ammo (HST to be exact) but I only use it because of the ballistic qualities of the roound, not because of function. 115 gr is the majority of what I shoot and I have never experience any problems. I shoot pretty much everything, even the 115 corbons, which casue alot of problems for alot of pistols, functions without incident in my 239.


While the Sig P-239 may be a superior choice for LE and other Duty type applications I don't feel that it was the smartest choice for my/our situation due to the more stringent maint/lube requirements.

The 239 is not exactly a great LE firearm because of its limited capacity and small grips. If anything its a plain clothes officers gun (dectectives and the like) but was mainly designed for civilian applications. A pistol that requires a high level of maintaince is not a good SD weapon for civilians and non-civilians alike.

I think the next time you and the wifey are at the range, try and run a couple hundred rounds through it. If the problems continue than by all means ditch it. I think that once you have it running, you will come to really apperciate the 239.


Good Luck!


Shadi

[fastbolt]

Hope it works well for you at the range now that it's back and nothing unusual was discovered by the Sig folks.


I wouldn't describe Sig Sauer pistols as being more 'demanding' in the way of lubrication and general maintenance. They do, however, like to be lubricated.

Now you've seen an example of how Sig lubricates their guns and had the chance to listen to one of their folks explain it.

The presence of the lubricant used does need to be checked periodically to make sure it remains where it's needed, in the amount necessary to provide optimum functioning. Carrying a gun in a holster can sometimes allow oil to run or wick away from where it was originally placed.

The heavier bullet weight loads can sometimes help when it comes to folks with less-than-ideal, or borderline firm & locked, shooting grip techniques.

New magazine springs (and clean magazine bodies) can help prevent something similar which might sometimes be caused by the rounds in the magazine not rising fast and firmly enough up under the lips during shooting.

Let us know how the gun shoots after it was cleaned and lubed by the Sig Sauer CS folks.

FWIW, the oil-type lubricants I commonly use include Break-Free CLP, Militec-1 and FP-10, all of which provide for normal functioning in my various guns. I also sometimes use a couple of the lightweight synthetic greases and the occasional other oil-type lube, depending on what's available at either my bench or the bench at the agency range where I used to work, or depending on what conditions I expect to be using a particular gun upon occasion.

Hope it works well for you.

BTW, just a thought about HK pistols ...

A couple fellows I know work for an agency which adopted HK USP .45's a few years ago. They both attended the HK armorer class.

Afterward, once they started having their people shoot the HK USP 45's for training and familiarization, their only complaint was how much oil the HK's needed in order to run normally. One of them jokingly said that the HK's should've come equipped with an oil dipstick so they could know when there was enough oil. They commented to me that the only time their people were experiencing functioning problems on the range was when the guns weren't lubricated enough.

Now, let's just say that both of these fellows had previously carried and used personally owned pistols of another make/model. It's possible their perspectives regarding how much 'additional' lubrication was apparently required for normal functioning with their new HK USP's might have been influenced a bit by how well their previous guns (of another make) had run with a lesser amount of lubrication. ;)

[varoadking]

Deleted...

Just not worth the energy...

[Shane Tuttle]

Tell that to the folks at the SiG Academy and they'll ley you know that you are the one that is wrong. It's part of their presentation...

Your wrong.
"If you can see it and feel it, you've got sufficent lube"
Thats what Sig says, nothing about "running wet"

Ummmm....if you can see water, and feel water....isn't your fingertip wet with water?:confused:

I'm not sayin'....I'm just sayin'....

[Shadi Khalil]

Its completly different with oil. If I take a bead of water and smear it over a rail I probably wont be able to see it or feel it after a couple seconds. A small bead of mil-tec goes a long way, you can see and feel it but its only a thin layer.