End of 9mm v 45 debate: 10mm perhaps?

[Firepower!]

For me there is an end to 9mm v 45 debate.

The debate ends, because I find that both of these rounds are equally good for self defense purpose. One can leave bigger wound channel, yet the other provides myriad of choices in type of ammo.

The debate really can to a halt after comparing energy level =s out of muzzle for both calibers:

According to The Complete Encyclopedia of Pistols and Revolvers by Hartink (pp. 41, 45) following are the results:
9x19mm with 124 grains bullet produces velocity of 340 m/s and energy of 462 joules
45A.C.P with 230 grains bullet produces velocity of 260 m/s and energy of 504 joules
There is no significant difference in the energy levels at all. How much more dead a person can be with one than the other is a silly question. They are both capable of killing in first shot. One does get a slightly more energy out of 45, but at the same time there is compromise on number bullets in the magazine. For some the number of bullet is not important notion, but it remains an integral feature of choosing pistol over revolvers. If the capacity issue is to be ignored then a revolver with 357 or yet a 44 Magnum clearly yields more energy levels than 9mm or 45.

10mm, perhaps is a better choice after all?
10mm Automatic with 175 grains bullet produces velocity of 370 m/s yet the energy of 775 joules, (id at 42) considerably more than 9x19mm or 45ACP. 10mm also eliminates the room on capacity debate. The size of bullets allows the pistol magazines to be loaded with all most the same number of bullets as 9mm, perhaps 1 or 2 bullets less at most.

Thus, I would recommend sticking to your 9s and 45s, until you are ready to make the move up to 10mm [or heavier caliber], which actually makes a difference in terms of penetration and power. In Pakistan, 10mm is not available at large. I will wait until it is, at which point I will be making a shift to it since its the best I could do in semi auto. Remember we are not talking about revolvers.

[Firepower!]

Here is a copy of 10mm FBI report.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

[IanS]

1. All handguns are underpowered, yes even 10mm.:eek:

2. I'll take repeatable and more consistent hits with a 9mm, .40 or .45 under various conditions with two hands, one hand, weak hand, or while injured over harder control full power 10mm loads any day.

3. 10mm may be theoretically more "powerful" than 9mm, .40, or even .45 but by how much? Enough to make a difference? Enough for the trade off between power and controllability?

4. With good modern hollowpoint defense loads the line has blurred between 9mm, .40, .357 SIG, .45 ACP, and yes 10mm in terms of penetration and even expansion.

So FOR ME the answer is NO for self defense. For me the debate is over. Pick a reasonable caliber you can shoot best with and stop deluding yourself.

I like 10mm. I even like the .45 GAP, 9X23, .357 SIG and everything else. I like variety. I'm not an elitist. I hope to get a G20SF one day. But, its not my choice for two legged threats. I've come to accept the fact the handgun is limited in its power and the human animal can be incredibly hard to stop if its determined to kill you. Even armed with a 7.62 rifle or 12 gauge shotgun.

See also this thread
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439

then make up your mind yourself.

[Huey Long]

3. 10mm may be theoretically more "powerful" than 9mm, .40, or even .45 but by how much? Enough to make a difference? Enough for the trade off between power and controllability?

Acording to Marshall and Sanow's data, .40 S&W has a one-shot stop rate of 95%, which is the same as .45 ACP or .357 Magnum, and probably as good as you're going to get in a handgun. This being the case, I see no real reason why anyone would select the 10mm as a personal defense round.

[IanS]

I try not to think of any round in term of "one shot stop" statistics. 70% 85% 95% Its all meaningless. There are too many variables in real shootings and real life perps. Real life is not like a video game where certain weapons/calibers have consistent hit point ratings and damage. Its comforting to think in those terms but it sets us up for unrealistic expectations. I encourage you to read the very informed discussion here http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=25439 and the other discussions about ballistics and real life shootings in that forum.

[HiBC]

I understand in Pakistan you live a different life than I do.Any moment can change the fact,but life is pretty peaceful here.

I do subscribe (mostly) to the following ideas.

Even with a torso hit,no handgun caliber is a guarantee that you will not be fired upon unless you hit the central nervous system.

If you do hit central nervous system,it can be a .22 or .25 ACP,it is over.

For other forms of trauma,it is mostly about sufficient penetration and frontal area,maybe with some cutting thrown in (vs roundnose hardball).

It can be argued ,given adequate penetration,the only real advantage to more velocity is more expansion.Velocity can come at the price of controllability.

More caliber is more frontal area.

However,I do argue with myself ,a 21 round double stack 38 Super,or a 17 (or so) round double stack 10 MM might work out pretty well.

[Socrates]

There are handguns that do the rifle job. They probably start at 41 mag, 44 mag, 45 heavy colt, and go up. 10 MM is NOT it... 45 Rowland maybe...

[FLJim]

Firepower! wrote::
10mm, perhaps is a better choice after all?Define "better choice." Do you know the history of the 10mm handgun round? I do. Have you ever fired a pistol, particularly a compact or sub-compact pistol chambered for the 10mm? I have. (It's certainly do-able, but it's a handful.)

Despite the hopes of 10mm aficionados, I don't think you're ever going to see the 10mm become widely-popular, either with sporting and self-defense shooters, law enforcement or the military. The main problem is muzzle blast and recoil. It's right up there with the .357 Magnum in that respect. Then there's the cost. Sure, it'd come down with increasing popularity, eventually, but it'd still be at least as expensive as .45 ACP--probably more.

LE is finding the .40 S&W adequate for its needs. For the military: The jury's still out on what it thinks, but if it makes any move, I suspect it'd be back to the .45 ACP or possibly to the .40 S&W. Most sporting shooters would find no advantage, and plenty of disadvantages, to the 10mm - other than hunters. I imagine most self-defense users are not going to be much interested in the size/capactity tradeoff and recoil management.

It's a terrific round, but I don't see it ever going very far.

[Skans]

Here's my non-technical assessment of the 10mm round.

I put a rather thick (3/4") piece of plexiglass (painted some targets on it) out about 75 feet on my plinking range. I shot it using my Glock 17 9mm and EAA 10mm. I was using factory target loads in both guns - not high power stuff.

The 9mm basically punched holes in piece of plexiglass, and would occasionally crack a piece into two or even several pieces.

Then I shot some larger pieces with the 10mm. That was a blast!! Every hit made it look like the plexiglass was exploding - pieces flying in all directions. Much more fun to shoot thick plexiglass with my 10mm.

Well, I warned you that this range report was very "non technical".

As soon as I find some good night sights for my EAA Stock, it's going to become my primary Home Defensive Weapon.

[Win62a]

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j227/shaneme28/joke.jpg

[Webleymkv]

Personally, I rather like the 10mm. The arguments about punishing recoil and decreased controlability have not rung true in my pistol (a S&W 1076) as shooting full-power 180grn Double Taps is more pleasant than standard 230grn Hardball out of my 1911. Likewise, the recoil is nowhere near that of my .357 Magnums. Perhaps other platforms are different, but I've found Third Generation S&W autos to be very controllable when chambered for this cartridge.

[Skans]

Win62 - I love that stick cartoon!!!. :D I might have to steal it someday

[cavediver27]

I'm so happy this has ended the entire 9mm vs .40SW vs .45ACP vs 10mm vs .22 LR debate :rolleyes:

Now we can all rest in peace.

[FLJim]

cavediver27 wrote:
I'm so happy this has ended the entire 9mm vs .40SW vs .45ACP vs 10mm vs .22 LR debate.22 LR is included? This changes everything!

cavediver27 wrote:Now we can all rest in peace.We could have if you hadn't brought-up .22 LR.

.22 LR is most effective of the four because, once they penetrate the target, they kinda bounce around inside like a ball in a pinball machine, incapacitating your opponent.

[Stevie-Ray]

I like 10mm. I even like the .45 GAP, 9X23, .357 SIG and everything else. I like variety. I'm not an elitist. I hope to get a G20SF one day. But, its not my choice for two legged threats. I've come to accept the fact the handgun is limited in its power and the human animal can be incredibly hard to stop if its determined to kill you. Even armed with a 7.62 rifle or 12 gauge shotgun.I have to agree with Ian. I carry a 10mm, but only on vacation in the wilds, as this is my choice of caliber as a compromise between possible black bear, large dog, or human target. As a rule I prefer and carry .45 ACP for the concrete jungle.

And Win's cartoon is great!:D

[overkill556x45]

It'll never be over. Ever. A thousand years from now, our great-great-great-great (etc) grandkids will sit and type on their computers how the 4 megawatt pulse laser is so much better than the 3 megawatt pulse laser.

[goodspeed(TPF)]

*bangs head against wall. :confused:

[Apone]

+1 Win62a

[Apone]

Well, I warned you that this range report was very "non technical".

Awesome! None of the ranges near my place will let you do stuff like this. You're a lucky man.

[Chris_B]

I had a great solution for the 9mm vs .45 ACP question

I bought a P.38 and then I bought a 1911A1

[LFOD1776]

.357 Sig! Clearly!

[NJgunowner]

Eh, I'd rather have the .357 over a 10mm. And since I bought .40 I'd rather have that over a 10mm also. :p

[vox rationis]

Here is a copy of 10mm FBI report.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Yes, that is a classic read, but the conclusions in that paper are contrary to your assertions and central argument.

Furthermore, the FBI's 10mm load that entails a 180grain .40 caliber projectile at 980 fps, is essentially, drum roll please, a .40 S&W :D

[IanS]

:D:D:D Classic

[Firepower!]

I have not made an argument, yet.

I simply presented TFL with a perhaps question, and 10mm solution.

The FBI report clearly praises 10mm for its power and no compromise on capacity.

[Alert]

yay let's all rescue a soon to be forgotten chambering that only appealed to a very few people for a brief period of time, granted it is a cult classic, the modern day equivalent of the old .41 magnum

[Skans]

10mm is making a big comeback. I wouldn't be surprised if S&W doesn't start producing 10mm pistols again.

[LFOD1776]

Hey, I didn't buy a Delta Elite because it was a throw-back! I see a brave new rebirth of the caliber in the near future, to much fanfare.

[Boncrayon]

A good compromise would be what most police forces are using now...the 40Cal. I keep Hornady Taps in my home protection firearm...PX4 Storm!

[MTS840]

The FBI report clearly praises 10mm for its power and no compromise on capacity.

As has been posted, the FBI report essentially praises the performance of the .40 S&W.

The 10mm was never tested, approved or issued in full power form. A 180 gr. bullet at about 950 fps was developed for testing and still outperformed both the 9mm and .45 ACP bullets of the day.

[Webleymkv]

I think the 10mm could actually be an excellent police cartridge, but not for the reasons that the FBI concluded (it has nothing to do with the terminal performance). I think that it's performance against automobiles makes the strongest case for police use. 180-200 grn is heavy enough to provide better penetration of auto glass than the lighter 9mm while the increased velocity would make for better penetration of steel than .45 or .40 S&W.

[gb_in_ga]

Yes, it is just exactly what we have all been looking for -- on paper, at least.

In practice, in the real world where real people are shooting real handguns, it isn't quite so great.

On paper, what you have is a round that fits pretty well in the .357 Mag to 41Mag gap. On paper, what you have is what people wanted when they had to leave their beloved .357 Mag revolvers behind, but in an autoloader. And for that it works pretty well. Then again, the same argument could be made for .38 Super.

But in practice, what you had to take into account is that the longer round made for grips that weren't suitable for those with smaller hands. Since you can't discriminate against those with smaller hands, that pretty well killed the deal as a service class sidearm. Not that those who can shoot it won't benefit, but that it isn't suitable for general issue due to the increased depth of the mag well. Note that the cartridge length isn't an issue with revolvers, hence this wasn't an issue with the .357 Mag.

You can train to accommodate the increased recoil. You can't train to overcome hand size issues.

[SPUSCG]

doesnt it have less stopping power than .40 and 45 due to overpenetration? to me it seems like a woods-carry-autoloader, not a service weapon

[gb_in_ga]

I think the 10mm could actually be an excellent police cartridge, but not for the reasons that the FBI concluded (it has nothing to do with the terminal performance). I think that it's performance against automobiles makes the strongest case for police use. 180-200 grn is heavy enough to provide better penetration of auto glass than the lighter 9mm while the increased velocity would make for better penetration of steel than .45 or .40 S&W.
Agreed. Again, what I find myself doing is looking at it as a way to get, in an autoloader, what we had with the .357 Mag revolver in a law enforcement service arm. If it wasn't for that pesky mag well all would be great.

doesnt it have less stopping power than .40 and 45 due to overpenetration?
Overpenetration doesn't necessarily mean less stopping power. In this case, it doesn't. What overpenetration does do is increase the likelihood of someone behind the shootee being injured. Other than that, in a service arm, penetration is a good thing. It not only allows the bullet to go through inanimate barriers (doors, walls, auto glass, auto bodies, etc) in order to hit the BG, but it also means that it will be more effective against large BGs, intervening limbs and less than optimal angles.

[Huey Long]

It'll never be over. Ever. A thousand years from now, our great-great-great-great (etc) grandkids will sit and type on their computers how the 4 megawatt pulse laser is so much better than the 3 megawatt pulse laser.

I'm guessing there are probably clay tablets somewhere where Ur-Nammu and Enki excoriate each other for their choices of blade length on their bronze swords.

[IanS]

I think the 10mm could actually be an excellent police cartridge, but not for the reasons that the FBI concluded (it has nothing to do with the terminal performance). I think that it's performance against automobiles makes the strongest case for police use. 180-200 grn is heavy enough to provide better penetration of auto glass than the lighter 9mm while the increased velocity would make for better penetration of steel than .45 or .40 S&W.


That is one area where a good heavy full power 10mm load would have an edge against 9mm, .40, and .45. For law enforcement that frequently do traffic stops definately a consideration. But needless to say, for civilians, its not a scenario that occurs very often. Also, today's bonded .40 and .45 defense loads seem to perform well against intermediate barriers like windshields. And again, one still has to contend with slower recovery times with full power 10mm loads vs. 9mm, .40, and .45.

Nothing's free. (shrug)

[Webleymkv]

And again, one still has to contend with slower recovery times with full power 10mm loads vs. 9mm, .40, and .45.


Depends on the gun. As I said before, I've found my 1076 with 180grn Double Taps to be easier to shoot than my 1911 with standard pressure 230grn hardball .45's. Matter of fact, it's not much more than 127grn +P+ Winchester Ranger 9mm's out of my CZ-75.

[Socrates]

The recoil of the 10mm, even with full house Double Tap loads, is pretty much a myth. If you run the figures, it recoils around 11-12 ft lbs in a normal sized gun, right about the same as 45 230 grain ball ammo. The ONLY way it can recoil much is if the powder used is high recoil. It's lighter bullets make up for the higher pressure, compared to 45 ACP.

[Catfishman]

Pros

Plenty of power
Plenty of shots


Cons

Fairly expensive ammo
More recoil


I'll pay $3's more per box of ammo
I'll deal with a little more recoil

I don't know why the 10 mm isn't THE round.
Please educate me.

[roman3]

The 10mm had its chance to be the manstopper we all hoped it would be and it failed. The early 1990's was the window for the 10mm when almost every gun maker made one. The watered down ammo and the capacity and the size of the guns and currently the cost of the ammo will preclude it from ever making a comeback. The arrival of the 40 Slow and Weak stopped the 10 in its tracks and a 1911 platform is most likely done in law enforcement.

Only one major gun company makes more than a trickle of the guns. 10mm fans can thank Glock. If Glock ever drops the 20 and 29 an already niche round will really be on life support.

At one time I was a big fan of the 10mm, still am, loved the Smith 10 series. But the gun no longer has the allure that the cost to use ratio as it once had. $ is to tight.

If you reload you can get the 10mm to do what it was designed to do. It is still a great hunting round and double tap can give you great ammo but the cost of that ammo is a factor.

The 10mm's days are behind it. It didn't even make a slight comeback duing the 10 round Clinton ban days.

[Peter M. Eick]

Roman,

If what you say is true, then how do you explain the vast number of 10mm guns on the market right now. Heck even Wilson is making a 10mm now as I have been told.

The 40 short and weak will always be just that. It has little bearing on the 10mm other then it causes bullets to be cheaper for us reloaders.

The 10mm round is for folks that want the power, accuracy and capabilities of the round. Those folks that can handle it seem to really like them and those that don't seem to like the 40's.

As a long time 10mm fan, I am very pleased at the diversity of guns being made for the 10mm. My opinion is the 40 short and weak has lost its luster as the newest thing on the block and now has moved to just another comfortable cartridge that most folks like. Sort of like the 9mm and 45acp. Good rounds, lots of followers. Now folks are starting to see the limits of the 40 and realizing the beauty of the 10mm. Thus the interests and the number of new guns out in 10mm.

[SPUSCG]

i wonder how many people would buy it if we renamed it a .40 magnum

[roman3]

If what you say is true, then how do you explain the vast number of 10mm guns on the market right now. Heck even Wilson is making a 10mm now as I have been told.

What company's currently make 10mm's? What major companies? Smith, Ruger, Hk, Sig, Walther, does Colt still make any?

A vast number of guns on the market? Are these new guns or are these the guns made back in the day? If there are so many on the market then I guess no one's buying them.

Are these 10mm's trying to get part of the 1911 platform market? Other than Glock and I guess Witness who makes a non 1911 10mm platform?

Diversity?

The good old days;

Bren 10
Colt Delta Elite
Ruger
Smith & Wesson
LAR Grizzley
Springfield Omega
Springfield Custom
Peters Stahl
Lew Horton
Colt Double Eagle
Glock 20 / 29
AMT Javelina
Star Megastar
Glock 29
Tanfoglio Witness
Auto Ordnance 1911
STI Hunter,
Wyoming/Parker Arms
Kimber


http://marina.fortunecity.com/harbour/347/10mm.html

http://www.guitarsalon.biz/10mm/

[roman3]

Oh I guess the new copy of the Bren Ten the Vltor Fortis, will be coming out too.

One more

http://www.bren-ten.com/website/

[Chui]

2. I'll take repeatable and more consistent hits with a 9mm, .40 or .45 under various conditions with two hands, one hand, weak hand, or while injured over harder to control full power 10mm loads any day.

Thus endeth the argument... at the very first reply. :D

Hey, brother, if you can shoot full power 10mm as well as you can shoot 9mm then go for it. But I'll bet you dimes to dollars that you can't. :p

The 10mm has been relegated to "back country" existence used for hunting or hiking. It's a good alternative to a heavy .357 revolver. As to personal defense the time off of target is too great for most. In other words one cannot control the recoil well enough to utilize it for gun fighting - or several challenging IDPA stages. Well, maybe a few can and if they can then they should strongly consider it.

[Yankee Traveler]

Where does the .400 Corbon fit, as far as penetration, velocity, and energy? If it is a .45acp casing necked down to throw a .40 lead, does it replicate the lighter 10mm FBI loads? Does it offer 10mm performance and smaller hand/shorter grip characteristics?

[Peter M. Eick]

Bren 10 - never really made it with no magazines.
Colt Delta Elite - good gun but early frames cracked
Ruger - good gun
Smith & Wesson - still available
LAR Grizzley - no opinion
Springfield Omega - no personal experience, but heard that it had issues.
Springfield Custom - still available.
Peters Stahl - no personal experience but heard it had issues.
Lew Horton -see S&W
Colt Double Eagle - what can I say.
Glock 20 / 29 - still available.
AMT Javelina - Is AMT still in existance?
Star Megastar - no opinion.
Glock 29 - already mentioned above.
Tanfoglio Witness - still available.
Auto Ordnance 1911 - no opinion
STI Hunter, no opinion.
Wyoming/Parker Arms - out of business.
Kimber - still available.


Now lets add:
Dan Wesson - still available
Fusion - Still available
Les Baer - somewhat available
Tanfolgio match, elite match and silver match - still available
Wilson combat - still available.
Colt Delta - Newly available.

I am sure I missed some, but all in all I see that most of the higher quality companies are offering 10mm's today. I would personally take a Les Baer 10mm over an Auto Ordance.

So lets look at it today. If we exchange the new makes for the old makes, then we are about the same as the good old days. With that said, how can the 10mm be declining? It seems to at least be "holding its own".

[roman3]

Well there are less manufacturers and today they all seem to be boutique 1911 makers, except Kimber. No major maufacturers except Colt (and in the civilan handgun market how big are they really?) and I bet they don't make very many. Glock is the only saving grace to the 10mm.

Some of those "still available" you made note of are no longer produced.

Holding its own? Barely treading water unless you want a 1911 platform. And cops are mostly done with single action guns in any platform.

I guess I should direct that the idea that its going to have some sort of great comeback or is going to suddenly be the next big cop gun is crazy. The 10mm may have its niche but the idea that its on a serious comeback? Come on.

If and when smith and Wesson begins to build production runs of the M&P in 10mm then I will believe it.

[Webleymkv]

Glock 20 and 29, S&W 610 Revolver, EAA/Tangfolio Witness, Dan Wesson Bobtail Commander and Razorback, Kimber Eclipse II, Fusion Firearms Custom 1911 Longslide, Wilson Combat 1911's, and STI Perfect 10

Also, besides the Vltor Fortis, Colt is supposed to be re-introducing the Delta Elite.

[roman3]

Glock 20 and 29, S&W 610 Revolver, EAA/Tangfolio Witness, Dan Wesson Bobtail Commander and Razorback, Kimber Eclipse II, Fusion Firearms Custom 1911 Longslide, Wilson Combat 1911's, and STI Perfect 10

Also, besides the Vltor Fortis, Colt is supposed to be re-introducing the Delta Elite

Yep, 7 1911 platforms, 1 single action platform, 1 revolver, and 1 to be released DA/SA platform.

How many LEO departments are going to buy 1911 platforms? Or going to suddenly go for the Vltor Fortis? If they have not already embraced the Glock 10mm's then they aren't going to do so now.

When HST or Ranger comes out with a 10mm line then I will believe its going to make a cop comeback.

BTW: 1 military issues the Glock 20, Denmark issues it to its troops on Greenland for polar bear protection. But when they are back in Europe its back to the Glock 9mm.

[roman3]

Dan Wessons are at or over $1000 each
Kimbers are over $1000
Fushion are over $1000
Wilson Combat is how much??? $2000 grandish :eek:
STI Perfect 10 is how much ??? $2000 grandish :eek:

Yep I can see police forces lining up to sign these guns up. And I am sure everyone got a deal and got their's for $450 OTD but everyone's fantastic, remarkable deals notwithstanding, the quality 10mm's seem to go for a qulity price.

Well at least the Revolver is somewhere between upper $700's to upper $900's

Thanks goodness for Glock and Witness.

[jgcoastie]

I don't own a 9mm, .40 S&W, nor do I own a .45ACP. I do, however, own a Glock 20 in 10mm Auto. I've shot many a round through the old Beretta M9 9mm, then I fired many many rounds through the SIG P229 DAK .40S&W when the CG decided to "upgrade" to a new Personal Defense Weapon for our Boarding Teams, CGI Agents, and other LEO's. I've spent many hours at the range shooting 1911's of all types and while I like the .45ACP, it doesn't suit my needs. I'm dreaming of a Para LDA 1911, but the price is out of the question right now. I'm not a fan of the 9mm or the .40S&W. I've owned both, and sold both.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've put ungodly amounts of ammo downrange in all four of the calibers in question. The difference is negligible. I can put rounds on paper just as fast with my G20 as I could with my Taurus PT140-PRO (.40). I can put them on paper faster and more accurately than I can with a full-size 1911.

Yeah 10mm ammo is more expensive, but you gotta pay to play and no ammo is cheap these days. I mean, unless we're all going to start carrying Walther P22's for CC, we can pretty much forget about saving money on any ammo. (And I'm not saying it's a bad choice, my wife carries her P22 because that's what she can shoot accurately and comfortably.) I carry my G20 year round, both for CC and for bear protection. (165gr Speer Gold Dot for CC - DoubleTap 200 and 230gr WFNGC Beartooth for bears).

I can shoot my 10mm with full-house loads better than I can shoot any 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP that I have tried to date. People say that "Oh, well the 10mm recoil is SOOOO BAD!!! I don't want one!!!" But most have never even picked one up, much less actually fired one. Every person I've taken to the range has shot my G20 and loved it. Even die-hard 1911 and sub-compact 9mm lovers.

I would stay away from saying that "Well the major con of the 10mm is that you can't put as many rounds on paper as fast as you can with a such and such gun because the recoil is too bad."
Did you ever think that you might not need as many rounds on target with a 10mm?
Did you also ever think that if you can't put enough rounds on paper in a short enough amount of time that YOU might be the problem? I don't care what type of gun you're shooting; IF YOU DON'T BURN ENOUGH POWDER AT THE RANGE, YOU WILL NEVER REACH THE LIMIT OF THE GUN'S POTENTIAL.

[Peter M. Eick]

Why do I care if police are lining up to buy 10mms? I don't see who buys it having any bearing on the resurging popularity of the 10mm.

What you see is the market developing around a 1911 format 10mm for those who want one. I see that folks seem to be recognizing that the 10mm is more of what they want and less of what they don't need. Thus the 10mm can be a hunting round, a target round or even a SD round if needed. It can do it all better then the other common calibers.

I know I paid premium prices for my DW RZ which was part of the original group of 150. I also paid premium prices for my one of a kind Les Baer Heavy Weight Monolith custom in 10mm. And yes by Baer was much north of two grandish. Why does that seem to bother you?

This all comes back to the basic ballistics of the 10mm and the launching platform. I like most 10mm fanciers, like the 1911 and am very happy with my two.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Dan Wessons are at or over $1000 each
Kimbers are over $1000
Fushion are over $1000
Wilson Combat is how much??? $2000 grandish
STI Perfect 10 is how much ??? $2000 grandish

Thanks goodness for Glock and Witness


Since the police would be buying 99% of their guns from Glock, I fail to see how the cost of the high-end 10mm guns holds any relevance.:confused:

[cavediver27]

I'm so glad that the debate is over :cool:

The 5 people in the entire world who love the 10mm are all here waving the flag :rolleyes:

[roman3]

Since the police would be buying 99% of their guns from Glock, I fail to see how the cost of the high-end 10mm guns holds any relevance.


I have no idea what you are asking. But since police forces are not lining up to buy the Glock 20 and 29, they aren't going to go for a niche cartridge in an $$$ designer 1911 package.

The 10mm has had its day and its resurgence is only in the minds of those who forked out mega $$$ for the designer boutique 1911's. Should have saved your cash, gotten a Smith 1006 and been done with it. BTW Peter M. Eich you seem to care a great deal.

And in this economy and those prices I bet its a very small market. ;)

[roman3]

It can do it all better then the other common calibers.


Well there you have it. :rolleyes: ;)

[Firepower!]

As soon as I get my hands on ones, I am upgrading all my pistols to 10mm and possibly get a couple of Mp5s in 10mm as well.

It is the answer for better round. Cost is irrelevant.

[Nnobby45]

Gee, I wonder if there could be a practical reason why, after much testing, the 10mm is dead as a LE issue, and why it isn't much more popular with re: to cvilian ccw.

I suspect the answer might be yes.:cool:

[roman3]

As soon as I get my hands on ones, I am upgrading all my pistols to 10mm and possibly get a couple of Mp5s in 10mm as well.

It is the answer for better round. Cost is irrelevant.

It had better be ;)
Money must be more disposable in Pakistan.

And you say the 10mm is not available at large in Pakistan. Will it ever be? It's not here in the US.

[Socrates]

All of these tests were done using 10% ballistic gelatin provided by Vyse gelatin using all FBI protocols and 4 layers of denim and two layers of light cotton T-shirt in front of the gelatin.
DoubleTap 9mm+P
115gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1415fps - 12.00" / .70"
124gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1310fps - 13.25" / .70"
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"


DoubleTap .357 Sig
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 12.25" / .71"
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps - 14.5" / .66"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1250fps - 14.75" / .73"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
125gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1600fps - 12.75" / .69"
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

The above are Mike McNett(Double Tap's owner) gello results with his ammunition.

I think what you find is the overpenetration stuff is a myth. If you read closely, you see that the 10mm stuff doesn't penetrate much more, at all. What it does do is open up more, and, that energy is being translated into a faster opening bullet, and larger wound channel, but not into penetration. If you look closely at the different weights in 10mm, it appears the bullet design is what determines penetration, not the velocity.

Besides bullet design, bullet weight seems to be vital to penetration.

[thirdeagle]

I entertained this same question recently. I carried a CZ RAMI 9mm for years and had no misgivings about the 9mm. However, I'm making a move from north Georgia to southwest Montana in just under 2 months. While my RAMI was perfect for "social situations" I felt that it would not serve me well in the wilds of MT; I wanted something for carry around town, while traveling, as well as in the woods. Unfortunately, I don't have the budget to keep firearms in every caliber so I sold the RAMI and bought a Glock 29. Without entering the discussion on ballistics, stopping power, etc, I'll say that my G29 is the perfect "compromise" for my situation. In fact, I wish I had stumbled on to the 10mm a little earlier.

[Firepower!]

it has nothing to do with money being more or less disposable. Its about getting whats best best.

[B.N.Real]

The answer is a short barrel,semi auto,detachable mag rifle in 308 caliber.

Your holster is a shoulder sling.

Have a nice day. :D

[Skans]

The 10mm round is the best round. Everyone should trade their 45's, 9mm's 40's etc. up to a 10mm. Just my opinion.

[roman3]

Its about getting whats best best.

I have not made an argument, yet

You have now. ;)

[Tommy Vercetti]

I have .45 and 9mm pistols, I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a 10mm unless it was too good a price to pass up, the ammunition is getting harder to find and more expensive when you do find it

[roman3]

The 10mm round is the best round.

Well there you have it part II ;)

[Firepower!]

There is difference between making an argument and merely stating a prefernce. I hope you appreciate the difference.

[Tommy Vercetti]

The .22lr round is the best round

corrected for accuracy, after all most of my targets are paper :D

[NJgunowner]

Ya... I see this debate to continue...

[alistaire]

The answer is...38 Super.

[gb_in_ga]

The 10mm round is the best round. Everyone should trade their 45's, 9mm's 40's etc. up to a 10mm. Just my opinion.
The best round for what? The best round to emulate the performance of a .357 Mag in an autoloader? If that is the real question, then the opinion you express is pretty close to being accurate. Then again, there are other contenders for that niche that do a pretty fair job as well -- like .38 Super and .357 SIG. But what about all other autoloader applications? Not everybody wants nor needs .357 Mag performance in their autoloader. I, for one, would not want to carry a featherweight 10mm analogue to my 9mm KelTec PF-9 even if such a monster were available. I'm not so sure that I'd want to carry a 10mm as a service class sidearm even though I am quite capable of doing so -- I happen to value extra capacity and faster recovery over the extra punch that I don't feel that I really need at all. At least, not in a service class autoloader sidearm. If I really felt like I needed the extra performance (and there's times when that is the case), I'd carry my .357 Mag 686. I mean, why emulate a .357 Mag when I can carry the real thing?

Most of the time, for the vast majority of SD applications that us civilian types are likely to encounter, the performance of a properly fed 9mm or .38 Spl is all that is required. Us civilian types have no real business shooting through cars (we are NOT the highway patrol, we are NOT the FBI) and would be hard pressed to defend ourselves in court if we did so. Where the extra punch really is justified is out in the field, in hunting and/or defense against 4 legged threat applications. And how many of the 10mm "Mall Ninja" types actually go out into the field where that extra punch is really needed? Precious few, I suspect.

Where the 10mm finds a secondary niche is in shooting sports where the power of the round is a factor in which class you compete, or in such sports as bowling pin shoots where the extra oomph can come in handy. Or, perhaps, in silhouette shoots where higher velocity and flatter trajectory are genuine pluses.

[roman3]

There is difference between making an argument and merely stating a prefernce. I hope you appreciate the difference.

Which one is this?

Thus, I would recommend sticking to your 9s and 45s, until you are ready to make the move up to 10mm [or heavier caliber], which actually makes a difference in terms of penetration and power.

Your recommendation has been noted.

[Tommy Vercetti]

you recommendation has been noted

and ignored by the vast majority of gun owners :D and not without good reason I might add

[Para Bellum]

9x19 or .45 is like Porsche 911 vs Corvette (C6). It's a matter of personal taste. Both do the job pretty well. I am weird because I'd go for a Corvette C6 and a 9x19mm everytime. If it were to be an older Corvette, I'd always take the Porsche (and still the 9x19mm).
:D

[73-Captain]

Another thread by the self-proclaimed armchair forum experts on the 10mm!!!

"roman3", After 30 years of carrying a Colt Gold Cup on duty I suddenly find that it is "dead in law enforcement". Everyone else carrying 1911s and Hi-Powers should trade them in on the advise of a armchair forum experts? Yeah, sure we will!

"Chui", said, "if you can shoot full power 10mm as well as you can shoot 9mm then go for it. But I'll bet you dimes to dollars that you can't." I'll consistantly shoot my 10mm Colts better than ANY of the 9x19mm guns I own. You better bet dimes to my dollars or else you will be loosing a lot of dollars against me!


For the narrow-minded elitists, the gun/cartridge you have is not always the best. Just because it is best for you does not mean it is any good at all for anyone else.

Which cartridge and gun is best is so simple... It is the one you have with you when you need it!!! The .22 in your hand is always better than the .44 Mag you left at home as long as you can put the bullets into a critical area of your target.

C.

[Tommy Vercetti]

anybody who claims to shoot a 10mm better than they shoot a 9mm doesn't seem to be very concerned about their credibility, or lack thereof from here on out

[roman3]

After 30 years of carrying a Colt Gold Cup on duty I suddenly find that it is "dead in law enforcement". Everyone else carrying 1911s and Hi-Powers should trade them in on the advise of a armchair forum experts? Yeah, sure we will!

What LEO's except some swat guys or special units carry 1911's department wide?

And yes it is time for you and the other old timers to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. What is your backup a police positive?

Another thread by the self-proclaimed armchair forum experts on the 10mm

And added to by another self-proclaimed armchair forum expert on the 10mm. Classic :barf:

[Webleymkv]

9x19 or .45 is like Porsche 911 vs Corvette (C6).

Yeah, but the 10mm is like an Aston Martin DBS. I, on the other hand, would choose a .357 Magnum revolver and a 1935 Duesenberg:D

[Apone]

Another thread by the self-proclaimed armchair forum experts on the 10mm!!!

Do I need to delineate the difference between a self-proclaimed armchair forum expert and a self-proclaimed actual forum expert? :D

Seriously, doesn't HK make a 10mm variant of their MP5? I think they do and they call it the MP10 or MP5/10 or something. I've never fired a 10mm, but I've always been told the recoil is "snappier" than .45, but no worse. That is, of course, in a handgun platform, but I would think a SMG chambered in 10mm would allow you to control the recoil and give you significant more punch than a 9mm. Again, I don't know, as I have never fired an SMG in any caliber and this is only a guess. But the fact that HK bothered to make SMG's in calibers other than, read: larger than, 9mm leads one to ask a few questions:

Why bother making a larger caliber SMG if everyone is happy with the 9mm variants of the MP5?

Why bother engineering an entirely new platform (the UMP), if all of your customers (largely military and police agencies) are satisfied with the 9mm SMGs?

This is all conjecture, and I do not claim it to be anything other than my personal curiosity. It is my opinion, however, that HK wanted SMG's with more velocity/energy/penetration than the MP5 9mm and the 10mm versions of their SMG's would certainly accomplish that.

So, while I would not want a 10mm pistol as a replacement for my .40's, .45's, or 9mm's for daily carry, home defense, or plinking, because of scarcity and cost of ammunition as well as greater recoil, I think if I earned my living as a professional shooter, then I would want SMG's chambered in a cartridge that provided the greatest capability. 10mm > 9mm. Personal opinion. Good luck with the rest of this thread.

[IanS]

I got the answer for you guys. Get the most powerful, loudest, most punishing caliber/gun you can find. That will tell you how much "stopping power" it'll have. So there you have it..........you Neanderthals.;)

[G-man 26]

Well, I'm no leo or military, or anything like that. I'm a mechanic. I can tell you that my tool box is not full of crescent wrenches. I have hammers, screw drivers, and all kinds of tools. This does not mean that I can't use my crescent wrench as a hammer, because when I'm too lazy to get the hammer out, the wrench is there in my hand, and will do the job (sometimes).

10mm is just one tool. IMHO, the thing is too powerful for police use, home defense , or ANYTHING in an urban environment. I say this for the same reason we like that it goes through cars and windshields and such. Not knocking the cops or anything, but in my town, they tend to miss more than they hit, and the added penetration of the 10mm would have me a little worried. I don't use it for SD/HD, and I'm glad the folks next door don't either.

That said, here is another "IMHO". If you go into the woods with a 9mm, well, that's just dumb. I may use my crescent wrench as a hammer once in a while, but the hammer never pulls double duty for the wrench.

OHBOYOHBOYOHBOY, I can't wait to try the new 6" barrel I just put in the G-20. Maybe I'll do the milk jug thing like a couple of others on here.

[Stevie-Ray]

The 10mm has had its day and its resurgence is only in the minds of those who forked out mega $$$ for the designer boutique 1911's.Well, add to those the people that have been there from the beginning. I bought a Delta Elite in the 80s. For a good price, I might add. The ammo then was a choice of about 2. The gun was no choice. Unless you insisted on a Bren you couldn't get a magazine for. Now there are many choices of gun and ammo. In fact the vendors at our gun show are talking ordering more of the 10mm ammo because it completely sells out on Friday nights. Anybody that pays money to get into the show the rest of the weekend is disappointed, like I was last week. And when I bought my Glock 29, the dealer told me that when he gets one it sells right away. Most are simply ordered sight unseen.

This doesn't sound like it's just in the minds of mega-buck 1911 owners.

I think the 10mm is just starting to have it's day. And that reminds me, I have to contact Double-Tap.

[Huey Long]

In fact the vendors at our gun show are talking ordering more of the 10mm ammo because it completely sells out on Friday nights.

That may not mean much. Everything is selling out right now because of the political situation.

[Stevie-Ray]

That may not mean much. Everything is selling out right now because of the political situation.Wrong. I can always get all the HSTs or HydraShoks for my .45 ACP and 9mm I want, as well as the cheap stuff for plinking. In fact I generally do buy it all there, as it's just as cheap as the net.

[Huey Long]

Wrong. I can always get all the HSTs or HydraShoks for my .45 ACP and 9mm I want, as well as the cheap stuff for plinking. In fact I generally do buy it all there, as it's just as cheap as the net.

I'd like to know where you're shopping, because most of the places I've gone are even sold out of the common stuff.

[jgcoastie]

Where the extra punch really is justified is out in the field, in hunting and/or defense against 4 legged threat applications. And how many of the 10mm "Mall Ninja" types actually go out into the field where that extra punch is really needed? Precious few, I suspect.

Where the 10mm finds a secondary niche is in shooting sports where the power of the round is a factor in which class you compete, or in such sports as bowling pin shoots where the extra oomph can come in handy. Or, perhaps, in silhouette shoots where higher velocity and flatter trajectory are genuine pluses.

I live in Alaska, the 10mm might not be the best for protection against all the four-legged predators, but it has proven itself (at least to me) to be a decent "all-around" round.

To me, the 10mm is a compromise. I'm at the lower-middle level of the enlisted pay scale, I can't afford to buy 5 or 6 pistols for myself with each one having a specific purpose. However, I can afford to buy one pistol that may not be the best for everything I need it for (backup gun when Yogi bear is pissy, CCW, SD, HD) but it is adequate for all these applications.

I can carry my stock G20 concealed everywhere I go using nothing more than a Blackhawk CQC SERPA paddle holster and a light jacket. When hunting, it stays right where it does for CC everyday, just behind my hip with a slight forward cant. I can also slide it in my chest holster which pairs nicely with my chest waders when salmon fishing. It suits my needs. Do I think it's one of the most versatile rounds ever made? Yes. Do I think it does most jobs better than any other pistol round? Yes. But that is irrelevant.

The only four questions that matter to me are these:
1. Can you carry and shoot it comfortably? Yes.
2. Can you consistently shoot it accurately? More so than any other pistol I've owned.
3. Will it perform reliably? Yes.
4. Can it effectively eliminate the expected threats? Yes.

My $.02...

[roman3]

I think the 10mm is just starting to have it's day. And that reminds me, I have to contact Double-Tap.

I grant you there is a solid core of 10mm supporters and given how little new 10mm ammo and gun choices there are, I am sure they buy up what they can, when they can.

The 10mm has its place but it will never be what its supporters hope it will be. In Alaska it would be a good compromise but the idea it would be a good compromise everywhere and to everyone as the OP suggests is nonsense.

But when another major manufacturer (not the high end 1911 makers) but someone like Smith, HK, CZ, Walther, Ruger, Browning, FN, Kahr begins line production of a 10MM pistol (and not a short run of 610 Revolvers or high end Delta Elites) and a new line of ammo from a major ammo company (not Double Tap) then I will believe it.

[roman3]

Well, add to those the people that have been there from the beginning. I bought a Delta Elite in the 80s. For a good price, I might add. The ammo then was a choice of about 2. The gun was no choice. Unless you insisted on a Bren you couldn't get a magazine for.

I too was an early supporter of the 10mm, heck at one time I had the 1006, 1066, 1076, Glock 20, glock 29 (which was my carry gun), Star Megastar, and a Colt Double Eagle and a load of Norma ammo and some silvertips too.

So I am not anti-10mm but it is not going to be the end all be all cartridge that some suggest and the police are not suddenly going to go to the 10mm now.


Now there are many choices of gun and ammo.


And frankly I disagree with the gun choice options today. Unless its Glock and EAA Witness you have nothing but designer 1911's, not exactly catering to anyone except 1911 fans, and I know several diehard 1911 fans who want nothing to do with a 10mm 1911.

Unless you are talking about all the used older 10mm's made long ago that are on the market, the 10mm gun market is real thin.

The 45 GAP probably has more acceptence in LE then the 10mm. At least there are departments issuing it, department wide.

[Firepower!]

The 45 GAP probably has more acceptence in LE then the 10mm. At least there are departments issuing it, department wide.

aah no. I certainly doubt it.

[IanS]

aah no. I certainly doubt it.

New York State Police, Georgia State Patrol, Pennsylvania State Police are issued Glock pistols in .45 GAP. Whether the .45 GAP is more popular than the 10mm or whether it will last is up to debate. But does it really matter whether 10mm or .45 GAP has the edge? We're splitting hairs here. But I will say the 10mm is more entrenched within the shooting community at large and the 10mm has more applications beyond law enforcement/personal defense.

With the economy the way it is, government budgets the way they are, more "uncommon" cartridges like the .45 GAP, .357 SIG, and 10mm are gonna struggle gaining new converts, be it civilian or LEO. Unless they reload, current shooters of these cartridges are faced with above avg. cost for ammunition and supply problems. Standard chamberings like 9mm, .40, and .45 are simply more practical and economical for most people who do not reload. Even finding .380 ACP range ammo is tough these days. (If you say prices and availability isn't that bad then you simply don't shoot enough or often enough) It is not a good time for these niche cartridges.

The proliferation of new cartridges is a sign our economy and our shooting community is healthy and vibrant. (Let the free market decide which cartridges survive and which does not.) What's happening these days is the opposite. And it is not good.

[Chui]

jgcoastie, wildalaska and others who are in the US "outback" have good reason to consider 10mm. It makes sense when one considers potential threats from predators other than human. It's a good all around "outdoors" pistol and if I had to have one the Glock 20 SF (if there is an "SF" of the Model 20) would be THE one. It would make a great HUNTING COMPANION as well.

73-captian claims: "I'll consistantly shoot my 10mm Colts better than ANY of the 9x19mm guns I own. You better bet dimes to my dollars or else you will be loosing a lot of dollars against me!"

You're peddling the claim that you can shoot a CQB in 10mm better than a CQB chambered in 9mm... :barf: :rolleyes:

I must call "BS" on this one... :D

[IanS]

And there are others who'd argue trying to have one pistol that tries to a jack of all trades and master of none isn't the best option.

I'd prefer .44 Magnum revolver (loaded with hard cast loads) and up and a compact 9mm/.40/.45 auto for two legged threats. Even then don't be surprised if you get eaten or thrashed by the bear. I've heard trying to shoot and stop a charging bear with any handgun in any caliber is "challenging" to put it mildly. And I wouldn't want a hard recoiling handgun against two legged attackers. Its not my choice for urban areas so what makes the backwoods different?

Of course if all one can afford is one pistol well then I guess a Glock 20 will have to do. One mag loaded with the hottest heaviest 10mm loads I could find and another mag loaded with more reasonable defense loads.

[roman3]

New York State Police, Georgia State Patrol, Pennsylvania State Police are issued Glock pistols in .45 GAP.

And the South Carolina State Police, that is 4 state agencies. It seems that is 4 more than issue the 10mm.

The Fed's don't, no State does,

does any Big City? Small City? Town? County?

[gb_in_ga]

I live in Alaska, the 10mm might not be the best for protection against all the four-legged predators, but it has proven itself (at least to me) to be a decent "all-around" round.
On Kodiak Island too, no less. I'll concede that you actually do have reason to be packing that extra punch. The flip side of that is that when faced with coastal brownies, I'd be happier with more punch than what 10mm brings to the table. In your case, my impression is not that 10mm is too much, but too little. Given your stated constraints, 10mm is probably as good as you're going to get outside of a proper revolver.

[ElectricHellfire]

There seems to be a niche for the 10mm small as it may be. Why restrict our choices? No, I don't need one but perhaps if I was going into bear country or something, I might have a need. Rather than packing a heavy revolver I might just pack a 10mm Glock. Does the 10mm end the 9mm vs .45acp debate? Certainly not. A better question IMO is why we need the .40sw?

[Terry A]

Personally, my favorite threads are the ones like this. Call me nuts, but I can read ".45 vs .40 vs .9mm" threads all day. Or the "semi vs revolver" questions. They remind me of debates whether Joe Louis could have beaten Ali, or was Rocky Marciano tougher than Jack Dempsey. At the end of the day, we all have our opinion and we know why we believe like we do.

Same here. I love the .45, others swear by the .357, still others prefer the 10mm. They're all good calibers. Some have greater histories and have seen more action than some other calibers, but they're all pretty darn good or we wouldn't be debating them so often.

And I always enjoy learning how others present their sides and respective thoughts and opinions on these subjects. I have 9mm's, .38's, .357, .40's and of course, .45's. I don't own nor have I ever shot a 10mm. When they came out, I never thought they'de be around for long and I also thought that ammo for them would someday be discontinued. I was wrong, they're still around. And so is the debate.

Lot's of great points have been made and I'm anxious to read more of the caliber vs caliber or gun vs gun threads. They're informative and fun.

[IanS]

A better question IMO is why we need the .40sw?


Or .357 SIG or .45 GAP?

I do not understand the prejudice against other calibers.:confused: The lack of popularity of the 10mm is not because of the .40 S&W. Most .40 S&W shooters are people who were looking for alternatives to the 9mm and .45 NOT 10mm in full power flavor. In other words if these same people weren't shooting .40 they'd probably shoot other medium rounds like 9mm, .45, .357 SIG, or .45 GAP. And its not like we're gonna run out of 9mm and .45 shooters.

Live and let live.

[Stevie-Ray]

I'd like to know where you're shopping, because most of the places I've gone are even sold out of the common stuff.Here is where I shop. At their monthly gun shows. Never a problem with ammo, except of course, 10mm, if you don't get there early Friday night.:rolleyes: Also, on Friday, you don't have to pay for the show.:D

http://www.gibraltartrade.com/Taylor1.html

[tostada]

With modern ammo there is no clearly superior caliber. It's all about trade-offs. A lot of you heroes are totally unaffected by the increased recoil of larger higher pressure rounds which give most of us less accurate and/or slower follow-up shots. But I can't help but think of hearing damage when people bring up .357 Mag, .357 SIG and 10mm. Concealable guns get quite loud, and if you ever had to actually use it you're not going to have a chance to protect your hearing. Even if you don't care about permanent hearing damage, I would argue that having your ears ringing after the first shot would be a major downside to the big handgun calibers.

A standard 9mm shot out of a 3.5" barrel is quite loud, yes? All those lists people post about the decibels of different calibers (which often don't even list barrel length) are dubious to say the least, but just doing some math (which might be off a little) on the air pressure at the end of the barrel:

9mm +P in a 3.5" barrel is 13% louder than a standard pressure 9mm
.45 ACP in a 3.5" barrel is 18% louder
.38 Spl in a 1.125" snub is 22% louder
.40 S&W in a 3.5" barrel is 42% louder
10mm with a 5.0" barrel is 42% louder
.357 Mag in a 3.0" barrel is 79% louder
.357 SIG in a 3.5" barrel is 100% louder
10mm in a 3.5" barrel is 103% louder
.357 Mag in a 1.125" snub is 235% louder

I'm just saying shooting a 9mm or a .45 hurts my ears. I shot a .45 pretty close to the side of a shed a few weeks ago and it really left my ears ringing. I've never shot anything in an enclosed room without ear protection, but I'm sure it sucks. If a good 9mm JHP or a .45 can get the job done, I certainly don't want to be shooting something twice as loud for a marginal benefit at best.

I want to love 10mm, but I would never carry a 10mm, so it makes it largely useless for me.

[roman3]

A standard 9mm shot out of a 3.5" barrel is quite loud, yes? All those lists people post about the decibels of different calibers (which often don't even list barrel length) are dubious to say the least, but just doing some math (which might be off a little) on the air pressure at the end of the barrel:

9mm +P in a 3.5" barrel is 13% louder than a standard pressure 9mm
.45 ACP in a 3.5" barrel is 18% louder
.38 Spl in a 1.125" snub is 22% louder
.40 S&W in a 3.5" barrel is 42% louder
10mm with a 5.0" barrel is 42% louder
.357 Mag in a 3.0" barrel is 79% louder
.357 SIG in a 3.5" barrel is 100% louder
10mm in a 3.5" barrel is 103% louder
.357 Mag in a 1.125" snub is 235% louder

I'm just saying shooting a 9mm or a .45 hurts my ears. I shot a .45 pretty close to the side of a shed a few weeks ago and it really left my ears ringing. I've never shot anything in an enclosed room without ear protection, but I'm sure it sucks. If a good 9mm JHP or a .45 can get the job done, I certainly don't want to be shooting something twice as loud for a marginal benefit at best.


Now there's a different take on the whole vs. debate. An interesting post.

[BlondieStomp]

What LEO's except some swat guys or special units carry 1911's department wide?

Long Beach PD, CA

[Winchester_73]

I guess if your idea of self defense is shooting a guy from maybe 80 yds out because he is also shooting at you, perhaps a 10mm is a decent idea. In all the other situations, I think its too big and too much. I read that the ballistics of a 10mm are close to that of a 41 magnum, which is a huge SD round.

[Chui]

tostada, where did you get your data? Recall that sound pressure is logarithmic not linear. A 6 dB increase in sound pressure is a doubling of the sound pressure.

[roman3]

Long Beach PD, CA

Well there's always some behind the curve, bet there not 10mm's though.

BTW is this the same Long Beach Police who's shot guns and revolvers went missing a few years ago?

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/jan/13/local/me-shotguns13

[brucea4]

I wonder why the 10mm never caught on? I believe the cost if it's ammo didn't help it out. And most people don't reload so save that argument please.
I don't study ballistics nor do I give much weight to a bullet's effect on ballistic jelly. Another cartridge that never caught on is the Colt .38 super. I wonder how that stacks up against the 10mm? :)

[Sparks2112]

I like 10mm :shrug:

With the proper loads it doesn't penetrate any more than a .45 would, and expansion seems to be a tiny bit better. I think one of the problems is that a lot of the people who talk about 10mm have never A) Owned one or B) Shot one.

Here's some unscientific test results.

http://winterwolfstudios.com/10mmpics/10mmv1.jpg
http://winterwolfstudios.com/10mmpics/10mmv2.jpg

165g DoubleTapAmmo Gold Dot, 1400 FPS (give or take), and yes that's almost an inch and a half of expansion.

[Firepower!]

Sparks...this makes 45 look like a .22 in comparison.

[Sparks2112]

Firepower!
Sparks...this makes 45 look like a .22 in comparison.

It wouldn't do that in a person (unless they start making them out of milk jugs full of water), but, the potential is there for rapid expansion with good penetration. For reference using the same medium the most I've ever gotten a .45 to do is 1.05" and I considered that a fluke, with most of them ranging anywhere between .68"-.9". All the 165g 10mm I've shot has been at least 1" with most of the doubletap stuff going anywhere between 1.2"-1.46"

[tostada]

tostada, where did you get your data?

I calculated it myself in Excel.


Recall that sound pressure is logarithmic not linear. A 6 dB increase in sound pressure is a doubling of the sound pressure.

I simply used total lbs. of air pressure at the muzzle. At no point did I mention decibels.

The decibel scale is 10 log 10, meaning every 10 dB is a 10-fold increase in what you're measuring. 3 dB is a doubling of sound power (actually 3.16, I think), and 6 dB is a doubling of sound pressure (since pressure is square inches we have to double it again). But using decibels to compare things is soooo subjective because you can only measure it in one specific place. Even if all decibel measurements were taken directly where your eardrum would be in relation to the muzzle, that's still not valid because the environment makes so much difference. If you're near any walls it's going to be a lot louder. And if we want to standardize things, that'd be awfully difficult to fit a whole shooting range into an anechoic chamber.

[Firepower!]

tostada, where did you get your data?

I calculated it myself in Excel.

Yes you did, but the question where did you get the data not how you calculated it.

[cracked91]

http://www.lesjones.com/www/images/posts/U6L9667.jpg


This is not really an issue for me, Self defense is probably going to be in my home, and in that case I would want the police to be cleaning my assailant up after 1 shot. Go with as big as you can handle, don't worry about being able to hit a moving target at 50 yards. Remember many detectives and even the CIA just carry .357 magnum snubbys. Just make sure you get comfortable shooting and handling whatever you decide on

[Firepower!]

just 357??? Are we talking about 357 magnum...right?

[brucea4]

Detectives do not carry .357 mag snubbys! Fire a .357 mag 2 inch barrel inside a house & you will be sorry. You might hit your subject with the first round but you will also probably start his clothes on fire if not your house. :p

[cracked91]

Some smaller town depts do but thats off the subject. The biggest cartridge is still (to me) the best option. When defending your home with deadly force you are in most states protected by the castle exception, but at the same time you have got to think about what it might look like to the police.

Situation 1:
An intruder broke into your home, you grabbed your beretta 9mm and walked out into the hallway, he sees you, charges you to stop you from yelling. You shoot 7 times and he dies.

Situation 2: Same as situation 1, except this time you grab your alaskan .454 casull. You shoot him once and he dies.

Though you will 90 percent be excused in both situations, any jury is going to think better of 1 shot defense then half a clip defense.

P.S. I always carry a S&W 66-5 .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel when I am camping, roadtripping, etc. But if you really have concern that you might run into something or someone that cannot be stopped with more than a .45 or 9mm I would just skip the handgun and grab a mossberg 500 with 00 buck. If you get far enough away that it won't be effective, the best option would be to run.

Just my 2 cents worth

[Terry A]

[QUOTE][/QUDetectives do not carry .357 mag snubbys! Fire a .357 mag 2 inch barrel inside a house & you will be sorry. You might hit your subject with the first round but you will also probably start his clothes on fire if not your house.
Yesterday 07:39 PM
QUOTE]


That was funny!

[brucea4]

Thank you...thank you.....I'll be passing around the hat after the show.......:p

[Firepower!]

10mm addresses the capacity issues as well, which no other caliber does so effective without compromising on the caliber.

[roman3]

10mm addresses the capacity issues as well, which no other caliber does so effective without compromising on the caliber.


How? I remember way back when you first began this thread you mentioned this point.

Only in a Glock 20 do you have anywhere near the capacity of a 9mm. And then of course the gun is huge!

And since many here don't accept you basic premise that the 10mm is the answer or that the 9mm is a compromise, how do we reconcile your views on the 10mm is the end all be all. Something that millions of shooters have missed for all these years?

I guess if you stand in the street screaming long enough you will get someone to join you.

Cavediver27 got it right,

The 5 people in the entire world who love the 10mm are all here waving the flag

[Firepower!]

Roman3...how??? IT HAS MORE THAN 45 and IT IS MORE POWERFULL!

That is how...:rolleyes:

I guess if you stand in the street screaming long enough you will get someone to join you.


And you can hide in a cornor and cry your little heart out.:barf::barf::barf::barf:

[IanS]

Roman3...how??? IT HAS MORE THAN 45 and IT IS MORE POWERFULL!

That is how...


How many times do people in this thread have to repeat themselves? A round that is simply "more powerful" isn't necessarily what people want in a defensive round against human threats. People including myself have expressed not only our preference but referenced ballistic and statistical data to back it up. The effectiveness of a fighting caliber is NOT simply brute power and capacity but a combination of shootability, power, capacity, platform, and realistic expectations from a handgun round. Again, the effectiveness of a fighting caliber is NOT simply brute power and capacity but a combination of shootability, power, capacity, platform, and realistic expectations from a handgun round. Is this concept too difficult to grasp?

If you want to carry a 10mm or even a 500 S&W knock yourself out. That's your choice. But you're not gonna get people to say 10mm is the "answer". Give us the benefit of the doubt. We are thinking rational people and we have considered the options.:rolleyes:

[roman3]

IT HAS MORE THAN 45 and IT IS MORE POWERFULL!

Well there you have it Part III. ;)

[brucea4]

Well, since we have the 10mm thrown in, what about the .38 super? I just bought one & am curious. Seems it is a round that never caught on like the 10mm......

[IanS]

Well, since we have the 10mm thrown in, what about the .38 super? I just bought one & am curious. Seems it is a round that never caught on like the 10mm......

I think the only reason its still around are competition shooters who like the round (its flat shooting like .357 SIG and 10mm) and people from Mexico who like 1911's (Colt) but can't have it in "Cuarento-Cinco", a military round. I doubt we'll see .38 Super gaining more acceptance with the advent of .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 GAP. Modern hollowpoints and loads are available for these newer rounds and they have the backing of big companies.

For semi-auto shooters pretty much any round that isn't 9mm, .40 , and .45 is a luxury. (Shooting .45 ACP feels like a luxury these days. :rolleyes:) That is, unless they have a specific purpose for the round, like 10mm for hunting. With the economy the way it is, New Administration fears, ammo prices rising, and sporadic supply; people are either hording/consolidating what they have or putting themselves on a budget. IMHO, the days when people bought .45 GAP or .38 Super pistols on a whim is over, at least for the forseeable future.

[Socrates]

Stealing my material:
:mad:

The original:
"Officer, I can describe him for you. Just look for the guy that's deaf, blind, and his hairs on fire.";)

Seriously, embrace the madness. A .357 snub, at night IS likely to blind, burn, deafen the bad guy. It's also going to do a bit of this to the shooter.

Many folks more closely connected then I have suggested part of the unbelievable stats given to the .357 at night are due to it's popularity as a LEO backup. The combination of pretty much a flashbang grenade going off in your face would be enough to get most bad guys to go down, since they can't see, hear, and might be singed real well. This in particular with the 125 grain loads, out of a short barrel.

10MM appears to have pretty much the same energy, or less, then the 357, and, it penetrates less, given the same bullet weight.

So, I'd argue the issue here is not 9, 45 ACP, or 10MM.
It's what do you consider more effective? A heavy fast bullet that expands, and maintains it's speed through the target, or, do you want a lighter, faster bullet that slows down in the target, expands, and doesn't exit?

If you discuss those issues, all three calibers come up short, unless you use some very tough, slow expansion heavy HPS, like the Hornady's XTP.

Truth is, to get penetration, and velocity through the target, you either need heavier then 230 grain bullets, or, you need to push them faster, a LOT faster, like 460 Rowland.

For a real good example of how light bullets, expanding light bullets, soak up added velocity on impact, look at this:
DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"

At 1725 fps, the 125's STILL aen't penetration that well. They open up more, however.

If you believe in two holes, you need to look elsewhere for your answer:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/Igman 150gr JSP.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/148gr%20Czech%20FMJ%20(silver%20painted%20tip).html
http://mcb-homis.com/nagant_m44/nagant_m44.jpg

[Catfishman]

I can think of 2 drawbacks the 10mm has, a little more recoil and a little more expensive ammo. If you can get past this it is the best round.

If its faster, heavier and expands more than most other rounds, then it must be better.

The .45 is a little heavier but much slower. The .357 Sig is a hair faster but is lighter and smaller. The 10mm delivers more ft lbs of energy on impact than any quality semi-auto round. There are several very good rounds out there but the 10mm is better, significantly better.

Sure there aren't as many guns to chose from. But, you only need one. The Glock 20 SF provides 15 shots and extreme reliability.

If it were called what it is-a .40 cal Magnum-it would sell like cold beer on a hot Saturday night.

[Huey Long]

Well, since we have the 10mm thrown in, what about the .38 super? I just bought one & am curious. Seems it is a round that never caught on like the 10mm......

.38 Super was quite popular in the U.S. for a while many years ago, but then faded in popularity. I'm surprised it didn't make a big comeback during the federal magazine ban.


I think the only reason its still around are competition shooters who like the round (its flat shooting like .357 SIG and 10mm) and people from Mexico who like 1911's (Colt) but can't have it in "Cuarento-Cinco", a military round.

Mexico recently banned the .38 Super but for a long time it was the most powerful handgun caliber you could have there. As I understand it, it still is in a lot of Latin American countries.


A round that is simply "more powerful" isn't necessarily what people want in a defensive round against human threats.

If Marshal and Sanow's data are to be believed, 95% one shot stop rate is about as good as you're going to get in a handgun and 10mm actually has slightly less stopping power than .40 S&W (which is 95%). I would imagine that this is because it's likely to punch clean through, whereas .40 S&W is more likely to deposit all its energy in the target.

[Chui]

tostada,

Sound Pressure is measured in decibels - usually dB(A) for human hearing.

Loudness is measured in Zwicker Sones.

[Catfishman]

Huey Long
"If Marshal and Sanow's data are to be believed, 95% one shot stop rate is about as good as you're going to get in a handgun and 10mm actually has slightly less stopping power than .40 S&W (which is 95%). I would imagine that this is because it's likely to punch clean through, whereas .40 S&W is more likely to deposit all its energy in the target."

95%? One shot stop rate? Based on What? By this logic is a .380 a better one shot manstopper than a 9mm, a .38 Special better than .357 Magnum. I often find a .308 inside a deer I've shot. If a softpoint .308 doesn't always go through a 150 pound deer I doubt a hollowpoint 10mm would ever go through the center of a 200 pound man.

[Webleymkv]

95%? One shot stop rate? Based on What? By this logic is a .380 a better one shot manstopper than a 9mm, a .38 Special better than .357 Magnum. I often find a .308 inside a deer I've shot. If a softpoint .308 doesn't always go through a 150 pound deer I doubt a hollowpoint 10mm would ever go through the center of a 200 pound man.

Under the right conditions, a 10mm JHP can indeed penetrate more than enough to go completely through a 200lb man as can many other handguns. What you forget about your .308 is Newtonian physics. For every action, there is an equal but opposite reaction, therefore the harder your .308 bullet hits the deer, the more the deer's flesh pushes back against it. The most determining factor in penetration against soft targets is the ratio of momentum to energy. Basically, the more momentum a bullet has as compared to it's energy, the better it will penetrate as the law of momentum states that objects in motion will try to stay in motion. This is evidenced by the Linebaugh Penetration Seminar in which cartridges such as the .45-70 could often outpenetrate much faster, more powerful cartridges like .458 Winchester Magnum.

For example, a 500grn .458 bullet driven at 2260fps has muzzle energy of 5669 and momentum of 161. Therefore the ratio of energy to momentum is roughly 35 to 1. A 530grn .458 bullet driven at only 1550fps, on the other hand, has muzzle energy of 2826 and momentum of 117 for a ratio of only roughly 24 to 1. When we compare your .308 to a 10mm we find that a .308 with a 150grn bullet at 2820fps has a muzzle energy-to-momentum ratio of roughly 44 to 1 while a 180grn 10mm at 1350fps has a muzzle energy-to-momentum ratio of only roughly 21 to 1.

[Catfishman]

I didn't forget Newtonian Physics. I never knew that guy in the first place.:)
I would expect that the laws of physics would apply to the .40 also. Charts, graphs and tables are great so long as the data put into them is good and the person reading them completely understands their meaning backwards and forwards. I don't. Next deer season I'll kill a deer with my 10mm and if the bullet blows through a deer I'll know I have a problem with overpenetration.

[Socrates]

Catfishman:
You aren't far off.;) The M&S 'results' are so full of holes, it's funny. Did you know
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331352
.357 Magnum is BETTER in stopping power then .308 rifle?:rolleyes:

In fact, Remington's 357 Magnum load is a 96% one shot stop, and, the Federal .308 is only 95%. DARN. I'm just giving up on all my rifles. Why did they fight all those wars with 7.62's when in fact, the .357 magnum handgun was all they needed? I guess someone should tell Carlos Hathcock that he just needed a handgun, and, he would have had more one shot stops...

As for penetration, it's about bullet weight, and bullet design. If you want an exit wound on your deer, use a heavier bullet, tougher construction. Barnes X comes to mind, and, you still get the explosive expansion.

As for pistol, and 10 MM: You can push a 185 grain HP at 1600 fps in .44 magnum, and still only get 14" of gello penetration. Bullet parachutes quickly, and just isn't heavy enough to get through the target. Light .308 bullets do the same, if really soft.

10mm mag can't go much over 200 grains, and, with fast expanding bullets, is going to be penetration limited. However, take that same bullet, and turn it into a solid, or non-expanding bullet, and you'll get a bullet that goes through a deer.

Same with .308. Go heavy, two holes...

Bottom line is and was, the 45 Colt. Get a bullet that expands, soft lead, and, it needs to weigh 250-260 grains, going 1000 fps to get both impact and penetration...

[Firepower!]

Can someone take the liberty to summize this thread and thoughts of the people who posted their opinion, without any bias of his own?


Thank you

[IanS]

Summarize this thread and the thoughts of the people who posted opinions?:confused::p

Here's mine. Again.

All handgun rounds suck. Get your hits. Pray to God the bad guy doesn't.

read this
http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-articles/articles/lom/0412/the_peter_soulis_incident.html

You're welcome.

[roman3]

Can someone take the liberty to summize this thread and thoughts of the people who posted their opinion, without any bias of his own?


:confused: You have got to be kidding!

[Sparks2112]

Can someone take the liberty to summize this thread and thoughts of the people who posted their opinion, without any bias of his own?


Thank you

Heck, I'll push that boulder up a hill...

So, anyway. All things being equal it seems MOST people agree that studying only the effect of a properly designed 10mm on living targets gets you the conclusion that 10mm is better than 9mm, .40, and .45. When we throw in the actual ballistics of the round, it's accuracy/trajectory, you also get, a superior round.

I think we can, for the most part, agree on that.

There are however some problems with the 10mm that most people, if they're being honest, can agree on.

Most of the guns that chamber 10mm are large in the grip area. This doesn't bother me, seeing as I have large hands but I do recognize that it is a problem for some shooters. For some reason some people don't/can't/won't recognize this as an issue.

Also, ammo is not common. You can find it if you know where to look, but it's not like looking for 9mm or .40. Also, when you do find it, it's expensive.

Recoil I don't see as much of an issue, since it can be trained away. I think we can all agree that a 9mm shoots softer though. It's not any worse than a .45 however, it just has a nastier reputation (furthered by people who have never actually shot one).

So we have,

Pros-

Better performing round when loaded properly
Better trajectory/potential accuracy at distance
Potential capacity advantage when compared to other large rounds


Cons-

Expensive/Difficult to find
Not all 10mm loads = 10mm maximum performance
Larger weapons
Increased recoil compared to 9mm (no one complains about .45's though for some reason)


Bottom line: if it works for you, go for it. It's a great cartridge. Just understand it doesn't work for everyone because of some valid concerns and some not so valid ones.

[brucea4]

OK Firepower....the 45 is better than the 9mm & cheaper than the 10mm.....:p

[Terry A]

[QUOTE][/QCan someone take the liberty to summize this thread and thoughts of the people who posted their opinion, without any bias of his own?

UOTE]


I weigh about 260lbs right now and have been one of these guys who have always tried to be the toughest, don't show pain, never complain about not feeling good, etc. I was raised to be tough, had 39 fights as an amateur boxer and even though I'm a Christian, I still have the attitude that you NEVER show pain or weakness. What does all that have to do with this thread????

I donated a pint of blood the other day, didn't eat or drink anything first and squeezed that ball like a death grip so I could get out of there fast. When the nurse came over to unhook the needle and bandage me, while we were still talking with me laying in the chair, I "feel asleep". The nurses said I "fainted" (Fainted! :eek:..shhhhhhh, don't tell nobody ;)). I could HEAR them all clamoring around, yelling for cold towels, etc., but I couldn't answer. Too sleepy and weak. After about 5 minutes, I started coming back around and man, was I ashamed!

THAT was just from bleeding too fast thru a needle! Now, after thinking about what it feels like to bleed out till you pass out, I have a newfound respect (fear) of ever being shot or cut.

If bleeding thru a needle hole can put a man down, I'm willing to bet that the 9mm, the .40, the .357, etc holes can as well. (All except for the .25 that is. :D) Some faster than others, of course, thus this thread.


PS- I still vote .45acp is #1! :)

[roman3]

Can someone take the liberty to summize this thread and thoughts of the people who posted their opinion, without any bias of his own?

Nope apparently not.

[Socrates]

After a guy takes 22 .40 caliber holes, one must start thinking that maybe two holes are better then one. I can't help but think that if the guy had 44 holes, he might have expired twice as fast.

So, in conclusion, find a round that penetrates MORE then standard service rounds, or, carry a submachine gun with 30 round magazines. From the ballistic reports, the 10mm is NOT one of those...Or, use a large caliber, with non-expanding bullets...

[IanS]

So, in conclusion, find a round that penetrates MORE then standard service rounds, or, carry a submachine gun with 30 round magazines. From the ballistic reports, the 10mm is NOT one of those...Or, use a large caliber, with non-expanding bullets...


Lack of penetration seemed to be an issue for this particular event. But I'm not sure how a harder to control handgun or submachine gun would have been advantageous especially after the officer was shot several times. Also, these are not practical weapons that LEO's and civilians can carry and use for most other situations. In fact they can be a hindrance and most likely a liability. You might feel fine lugging a HK MP5 or a Freedom Arms .454 Casull everyday but most people do not.:rolleyes:

[Socrates]

Solids, in 9mm up, will give you two holes. .45 ACP will, as well, and, it's famous for working, for 100 years.

A sub is EASY to shoot: Heavy, no recoil, accurate...
Try it sometime. Mac's in particular are a great easy to carry, accurate enough gun.

FA 97: small POTENT in heavy 45 Colt...
Irony is, most service 9mm autos are both big, and heavy, and you need all those rounds, if you don't get full penetration...

[IanS]

A sub is EASY to shoot: Heavy, no recoil, accurate...
Try it sometime. Mac's in particular are a great easy to carry, accurate enough gun.

FA 97: small POTENT in heavy 45 Colt...
Irony is, most service 9mm autos are both big, and heavy, and you need all those rounds, if you don't get full penetration...


Well if you can't get full or minimum penetration like the incident above then yes. But most of the time most of today's modern JHP tend to work "as advertised" as long as they don't have to punch through intermediate barriers. FMJ's in 9mm and above tend to punch all the way through most humans hence one of the reasons people use JHP's to avoid collateral injury or death.

And if all things being equal which would most people prefer to carry every day?

Mac-10 or Steyr TMP with a 30 round mag vs. Glock 19 or 23?

FA in .45 Colt vs. Glock 19 or 30?

And most of today's service 9mm autos have polymer or aluminum frames (Glock 17, S&W M&P, HK P30, SIG P226, XD9, CZ SP01) and are well below 30 oz empty. An FA revolver weighs about as much as a 1911 or steel L frame Smith. And if you need to do a tactical and emergency reload with an FA? Well, lets just say you better make sure every single shot counts or prepare to use that FA as a club.

[a7mmnut]

Being new back to the forum, I've just been silently reading along on many of these posts. When the 10mm came into the conversation, I just had to step in! Some of you have obviously never even fired a 10mm semi, much less tested penetration with it. I've owned my S&W 1006 for almost 20 years. My teeth were cut on an old Titan .38 snubbie and a Colt 1911. I now carry either a Walther P22, 3" Taurus in .44 Spec., or my Kel-Tec 9mm--depending upon where I'm going. I own others, but of all, that big 5" Smith 10mm is most definitely my favorite. I've shot the older Hornady 155 load (1410 fps) with great results, but more often the 175 Silvertips are what I take to the field with. In the house, two mags are full of Starfire 180's, and one has the Magsafe load. I shoot Gold Dot 200's regularly, or when I can afford to.

Nothing is better than shooting at an indoor range beside a 1911 shooter, and having him run his head around the partition and ask, "What the hell are you shooting?" I really was unaware of most of the muzzle blast until I switched this gun with my friend's 1911 at a range last year. This opened my eyes to the old "FBI Test" of the early 90's, when female shooters complained of their new 1086's. As I shot his sweet Smith 1911, I could feel the muzzle blast of my own big 10 come around the partition every time he fired. You just can't get that with the 9mm, nor with my weak little .44 Special. Only the big 230 +P load in the .45 comes close.

As far as penetration goes, do any of you remember the Strasbourg (Germany) tests of the early 1990's? After all the backlash of Marshall and Sanow's pathetic "tests", the Germans took out the goats with a variety of defensive loads. Some considered an industry standard, like those 175 Silvertips, showed to be miserably failing in the quick stop category. Overpenetrating 9mm's didn't fair any better due to poor frontal diameter and bullet design. Some of the .45's weren't great, either. The magnums were actually pathetic--all but the Magsafe, Glaser, and Quick-Shok loads, and in every other caliber tested.

Each goat was fired at from an unknown distance with bullet placement aiming for the chest/vital organ area. The total incapacitation time was recorded for a single shot in each load for that caliber. The goat has similar tissue type and mass as compared to humans, and the chest thickness is also similar to our torso. I'll try to post a chart from another forum that was copied from the original. Some of these times will surprise you--and Magsafe didn't know a thing about it!? Anyway, I'd still want to use my Contender or Ruger .41 mag. for my goat killing, but if a .380 beats that, then what? The bottom line is that most all of our ideas of penetration equalling killing power are all wrong. Energy DUMP is what we need, and it needs to be done fast. Judge for yourself:

Index Home About
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: [email protected] (Geoff Kotzar)
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Starasbourg Data from MagSafe
Date: 25 Oct 1994 22:35:34 -0400

Mr Moderator, with your indulgence, enclosed are the actual results from the
bootleg copy of the Strasbourg Tests. Thanks to one of the contributors I
called MagSafe and obtained a copy. The only differences between the data
below and those in the paper are the inclusion of the Standard Deviations
for the Incapacitation Times at the right and the elimination of the two
.38 Special loads from the 2" barrelled snubby. It just did not seem worth
the trouble to include them. You could argue, very strongly, that since I
went to all the trouble to type in all of the rest of the data, what would
three more lines have cost me in time. Mea culpa.

Those entries wth an "R" immediately after them indicate that a rib was
hit. Those loads marked "(cont.)" indicate the control loads, whatever
that means in the context of these "tests".

Now those of you who want to determine if any of the differences in the
times are significant can do so.



Strasbourg Results

LOAD MV AIT IT-1 IT-2 IT-3 IT-4 IT-5 SD

.45 AUTO 5" BARREL

MagSafe 96gr +P 1622 4.68 4.4 4.2 4.8R 6.8R 3.2R 1.32
Glaser 140gr Blue 1355 4.72 2.1 3.5 6.6R 8.3R 3.1R 2.61
R-P 185gr JHP +P 1124 7.98 9.6R 10.8R 3.9 4.6 11.0R 3.46
Fed 230 Hydra-Shok 847 8.40 5.5 7.5R 11.7R 12.9R 4.4 3.75
CorBon 185 JHP +P 1156 8.56 6.6R 11.4R 8.0R 13.2R 3.6 3.82
W-W 185 Silver Tip 1004 8.82 12.9R 9.6R 6.1 4.1 11.4R 3.66
ECC 185 Starfire 924 8.88 6.2 5.4 10.9R 12.1R 9.8R 2.94
CCI 200gr JHP Lawman 936 8.90 8.9R 12.6R 4.9 9.3R 8.9R 2.73
W-W 230 BlackTalon 829 9.14 7.6 10.7R 9.8R 11.8R 5.8 2.42
CorBon 200 JHP +P 1043 9.22 10.4R 11.6R 11.5R 4.9 7.7 2.88
Fed 185 JHP 1011 9.24 7.3 12.0R 12.4R 8.6R 5.9 2.87
Hornady 185gr XTP-HP 939 10.66 6.8R 11.2 9.9R 12.3R 13.1R 2.47
Fed 230 FMJ (cont.) 839 13.84 14.1R 17.3R 12.9 10.2 14.7R 2.59

.40 S&W 4" BARREL

MagSafe 84gr Defender 1753 4.52 2.4 7.7R 3.3R 4.0R 5.2R 2.05
Glaser 105gr Blue 1449 5.34 8.9R 3.9R 4.2 7.5R 2.2 2.76
W-W 155 Silver Tip 1210 7.86 9.7 9.9R 8.6R 6.3R 4.8 2.23
Fed 155gr JHP 1142 7.90 10.1R 8.6R 8.9 4.5 7.4R 2.13
Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 991 8.32 7.7 4.6 9.6R 9.2R 10.5R 2.31
R-P 255gr JHP 1136 8.40 4.8 8.8R 10.3R 8.2 9.9R 2.18
CorBon 150gr JHP 1183 8.42 11.1R 7.8R 9.1 9.5R 4.6 2.44
CorBon 180gr JHP 1044 8.66 9.6R 5.6 10.2R 9.0R 8.9 1.79
W-W 180gr BlackTalon 989 8.86 9.4 8.7R 7.8R 8.4 10.0R 0.86
R-P 180 JHP 988 8.90 8.5R 8.4 6.6R 10.1R 10.9R 1.67
CCI 155gr JHP Blaser 992 8.92 7.2 11.0R 10.3R 6.5 9.6R 1.97
Hornady 155gr XTP-HP 1157 10.38 11.2R 10.9R 13.1R 8.5 8.2 2.04
W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1118 13.76 13.9 16.3R 10.9 16.6R 11.1 2.73

10mm Auto 4.25" Bbl.

MagSafe 96gr Defender 1729 4.48 3.8 4.9R 5.3R 1.8 6.6R 1.80
Fed 155gr JHP 1311 7.56 8.8R 9.9R 11R 3.4 4.7 3.33
Glaser 105gr Blue 1624 7.60 10.5R 6.8R 9.8R 4.8 6.1 2.45
Corbon 150 JHP +P 1286 7.66 4.1 8.9R 8.6R 6.5R 10.2R 2.39
W-W 175 SilverTip 1267 7.92 7.7R 4.4 9.2 8.4R 9.9R 2.13
Corbon 180gr JHP +P 1155 7.94 2.9 3.3 10.6R 9.8R 13.1R 4.59
Fed 180gr Hydra-Shok 995 8.22 5.3 10.7R 4.3 11.6R 9.2 3.26
R-P 180 JHP 1202 8.26 8.7R 7.3 10.2R 8.5 6.6R 1.39
ECC 180 Starfire 955 8.38 6.1 9.4R 10.4R 11.1R 4.9 2.73
Fed 180 JHP 1018 8.46 10.4R 8.8R 7.8R 3.2 12.1R 3.36
W-W 200 Black Talon 986 8.76 11.6R 5.6 8 6.1 12.5R 3.15
R-P 180 JHP * 996 8.88 5.5 10.8R 7.6R 11.9R 8.6 2.55
CCI 180 JHP 1133 8.96 10.6R 9.7R 8.4R 6 10.1 1.84
Hornady 200 XTP-HP 1121 10.22 8.7 7.5 13.5R 9.7R 11.7R 2.39
W-W 155gr FMJ (cont.) 1103 13.98 17.4R 13.3R 11.6 16R 11.6R 2.63

.357 Mag 4" Barrel

Quik-Shok 1409 4.40 1.9 1.4 7.9R 2.2 8.6R 3.53
MagSafe 68gr SWAT 1757 4.62 9.9R 1.7 2.1 1.9R 7.5R 3.82
Glaser 80gr Blue 1687 4.82 3.3 9.1R 2.9R 6.7R 2.1 2.97
R-P 125 JHP 1458 7.34 10.4R 4.8 9.8R 8.6R 3.1 3.22
Fed 125gr JHP 1442 7.44 2.9 2.2 11.9R 11.5R 8.7R 4.64
CorBon 125gr JHP 1419 7.66 11.8R 3.3 11.6R 7.4 4.2 3.99
Fed 110gr JHP 1351 7.72 5.7 13.8R 2.9 5.7 10.5R 4.36
W-W 125gr JHP 1382 7.76 14.2R 6.4 3.6 3.8 10.8R 4.62
CCI 125gr JHP Lawman 1367 7.78 12.6R 10.8R 3.9 6.0 5.6 3.72
Fed 158gr Hydra-Shok 1213 7.84 8.6R 3.3 9.3R 7.3R 10.7R 2.82
W-W 145 SilverTip 1285 7.86 3.7 14.1R 9.5R 3.4 8.6R 4.45
R-P 110gr JHP 1334 7.90 9.4R 13.0R 4.1 8.7R 4.3 3.75
R-P 125gr JHP 1277 7.94 8.9R 4.2 13.3R 9.4R 3.9 3.94
W-W 110gr JHP 1281 7.98 4.5 11.2R 11.8R 3.8 8.6R 3.71
CCI 140gr JHP Lawman 1322 8.06 10.8R 4.5 12.0R 3.2 9.8R 3.95
Fed 158gr JHP 1205 8.28 11.6R 8.7R 8.5 9.1R 3.5 2.95
R-P 158gr JHP 1220 8.30 13.9R 4.3 9.4R 5.9 8.0 3.69
W-W 158gr JHP 1246 8.34 4.0 8.9 11.4R 7.2 10.2 2.88
Fed 158gr Nyclad HP 1188 8.42 8.9R 10.0R 4.5 9.0R 9.7R 2.24
CCI 158gr JHP Lawman 1221 8.48 8.7 4.9 10.6R 9.4R 8.8 2.14
Hornady 125 XTP-HP 1314 10.88 8.6 6.8 11.4R 14.0R 13.6R 3.13
R-P 158gr JSP (cont.) 1224 12.80 15.8R 12.8R 14.1R 7.6 13.7R 3.10

.38 Special 4" Barrel

Glaser 80gr +P Blue 1667 4.72 9.4R 6.3R 1.8 4.4R 1.7 3.25
MagSafe 65 +P+ MAX 1841 4.76 2.4 8.9R 1.7 2.5 8.3R 3.53
CorBon 115 JHP +P 1243 8.98 12.2R 9.8R 14.1R 5.4 3.4 4.51
W-W 158gr LHP +P 996 10.76 8.8 9.1 12.9R 10.0R 13.0R 2.05
Fed 158gr LHP +P 982 10.80 12.5R 9.6 9.7R 14.1R 8.1 2.44
Fed 129 Hydra-Shok +P 951 10.84 13.3R 12.7R 11.6R 8.4 8.2 2.40
Rem 158gr LHP +P 924 10.86 9.5 13.6R 9.0 11.3R 10.9R 1.80
ECC 125gr Starfire 946 10.88 11.4R 9.1 8.7 13.4R 11.8R 1.96
Fed 125gr JHP +P 998 10.92 9.9 13.7R 11.8R 9.9R 9.3 1.82
W-W 110gr JHP +P 1136 11.02 14.4R 8.8 9.6 9.8 12.5R 2.35
CCI 125 JHP +P Lawman 947 11.36 10.9R 11.8R 13.4R 10.6 10.1 1.30
R-P 95gr JHP +P 1138 11.38 10.5 10.7R 9.8 11.9R 14.0R 1.65
W-W 110gr JHP +P 999 11.66 9.4 11.5 13.1R 12.0R 12.3R 1.39
W-W 125gr JHP +P 938 11.70 13.1R 13.6R 10.7 9.8 11.3 1.61
Rem 125gr JHP +P 935 11.74 8.9 10.3 14.6R 12.6R 12.3 2.20
Hornady 125gr XTP-HP 936 14.82 14.8R 18.9R 13.7 11.6 15.1R 2.66
Fed 158gr RNL (cont.) 708 33.68 27.7 36.2 24.1R 41.7R 38.7R 7.47

9mm LugeR 4.25" Bbl.

MagSafe 68gr +P Police 1747 4.74 7.6R 1.8R 7.7R 2.3 4.3 2.82
Quik-Shok 115gr +P+ 1301 4.82 9.2R 3.2 2.0R 3.3 6.4R 2.94
Glaser 80gr Blue 1555 7.42 2.4 11.4R 9.5R 10.2R 3.6 4.11
Fed 115 JHP +P+ (BPLE) 1311 8.90 13.3R 13.0R 7.9 4.6 5.7 4.06
CorBon 115gr JHP +P 1333 8.92 10.9R 5.7 3.9 11.9R 12.2R 3.84
Fed 124 Hydra-Shok +P+ 1267 8.96 7.7R 13.1R 3.6 7.6R 12.8R 4.00
R-P 115gr JHP +P+ 1290 8.98 4.1 13.8R 9.2R 8.4R 9.4R 3.45
W-W 115gr JHP +P+ 1288 8.98 11.9R 3.5 11.5R 14.6R 3.4 5.19
ECC 115gr Starfire 1181 9.02 5.4 13.8R 4.1 13.2R 8.6R 4.41
Fed 124gr Hydra-Shok 1126 9.28 11.7R 4.4 11.9R 5.1 13.3R 4.19
Fed 124gr LHP Nyclad 1105 9.28 14.0R 9.9R 6.1 11.2R 5.2 3.64
Fed 115gr JHP 1175 9.30 4.8 8.6R 13.9R 5.4 13.8R 4.40
W-W 115gr SilverTip 1199 9.36 4.8 12.6R 13.4R 11.8R 4.2 4.48
R-P 115gr JHP 1166 9.36 11.0R 10.6R 11.0R 7.3 6.9 2.07
Fed 147gr Hydra-Shok 958 9.58 6.7 11.5R 5.3 12.0R 12.4R 3.32
Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 1286 9.62 14.2R 7.1 13.9R 6.4 6.5 4.05
CorBon 124gr XTP-HP +P 1258 9.66 6.9 13.7R 14.1R 7.9 5.7 3.95
W-W 147 Black Talon 962 9.68 12.3R 12.3R 6.6 6.4 10.8R 2.97
CCI 115gr JHP Lawman 1149 9.80 8.9 7.1 12.0R 9.9R 11.1R 1.91
Fed 147gr JHP 979 9.84 12.5R 11.3R 13.1R 6.1 6.2 3.43
CorBon 147gr XTP-HP +P 1093 9.86 9.0 9.6R 10.9R 7.1 12.7R 2.10
W-W 147gr JHP 890 9.90 14.1R 8.9R 5.2 9.7R 11.6R 3.30
Hornady 115 XTP-HP 1134 12.02 15.7R 13.3R 9.0 12.9R 9.2 2.87
W-W 115gr FMJ (cont.) 1163 14.40 9.7 16.6R 20.1R 15.6R 10.0 4.48

.380 ACP 3.625" Barrel

MagSafe 60 Defender +P 1338 7.12 9.1R 7.9R 8.7R 5.1 4.8 2.03
Glaser 70gr Blue 1313 7.94 6.6R 6.8 10.1R 8.8R 7.4 1.48
Fed 90gr Hydra-Shok 1008 10.94 10.4R 9.9 8.2 13.0R 13.7R 2.27
Fed 90gr JHP 1007 11.06 9.6 12.9R 11.7R 10.2 10.9R 1.29
CorBon 90gr +P 1041 11.12 8.8 13.3R 9.7R 12.8R 11.0 1.94
W-W 85gr SilverTip 980 12.88 11.9R 12.2R 13.8R 16.6R 9.9 2.50
CCI 88gr JHP Blaser 965 13.40 8.9 18.0R 13.5 9.8 16.8R 4.06
R-P 88gr JHP 996 13.46 14.5R 13.7 10.9R 14.6R 13.6 1.50
Hornady 90gr XTP-HP 984 15.58 12.7 17.1R 15.2 19.6R 13.3 2.83
Fed 95gr FMJ (cont.) 934 22.80 24.8R 20.7R 22.6 21.4 24.5R 1.82


geoff kotzar


-7mm-


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Index Home About

[IanS]

a7mmnut,

I think this is much better and more up to date with todays advancements in bullet design and testing protocol.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#Ammunition%20comparison%20tests%20by%20Doctor%20Roberts

Shooting a goat (probably tied to a post) is not the same as shooting a rapist/murderer who's broken into your home or some hardened criminal at a traffic stop about to shoot an officer. These perps usually have adrenaline pumping through them, are in fight or flight mode, and sometimes on drugs. Its been proven that humans who are determined enough can absorb massive amounts of damage (even having their heart blown out) to continue to be an imminent threat for a significant amount of time. The goat on the other hand thought he was just spending another miserable day with his human masters.


I don't think this can be stressed enough. Again, written by DocGKR.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.


Notice he said handguns. That means ALL handguns. I don't think he makes mention of any exceptions. He also says, "effective terminal performance". Notice he doesn't make any claims of 80% or 95% one shot stops.

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.


Amen.

[Ravenwolf]

I don't post much but have been following this debate with interest. I will say that I have a Para P16-40 converted to 10mm. I am a man of medium means and wanted a pistol to use for home defense and some target shooting. After spending a few years with this caliber, shooting around 2000 rounds of DT 200 gr XTPs, about 500 Win 175 gr Silvertips and another few thousand handloaded cast 200 grain Beartooth bullets plus various lighter weights, I've become very impressed with this cartridge.

Let me preface this with saying mostly I'm a revolver kind of guy and a handgun hunter for the last 23 years. What the 10mm has become to me is my home defense gun, carry gun during the winter months, hiking/backpacking gun in the summer and my open sighted handgun during deer/black bear season. Since I live in upstate NY I don't envision any close encounters with brown bear in my near future so not a debate for me. However with the 200 XTPs and cast bullets loads this is a very viable deer/black bear/hog cartridge and has taken more than a few for me out to 50 yards or so. I also shoot the 10mm in our local clubs winter and summer pistol leagues, and have shot a few self defense courses with it. It is a cartridge that gives ME the performance I want for the jobs I ask of it. It has the versatility I need without having to own a gun for each task I undertake. There are certainly other versatile cartridges out there as well and no one is better than the other if it fulfills what you ask of it.

Each person is an individual so recoil and muzzle blast effects everyone differently. I can shoot my 10mm fast and accurate for me and have won many matches doing so. This is not because the 10 recoils less or more than a 45 acp, 357 mag, 9mm, 357 sig or whatever. It is because I chose to practice, practice and then practice some more. Certainly if I didn't reload I couldn't afford to shoot as much as I do. A non-handloader might be better off with a 9mm or 357 (38 spc) because ammo is still "relatively" inexpensive when compared to other cartridges. I don't get hung up much on the my cartridge is better than your cartridge but I do believe the 10mm is a much under appreciated round, much like the 41 Mag. Each cartridge has its merits.
After having fired and competed in some informal CCW matches with a borrowed Glock 29 I might even be persuaded to change my summer carry SP101 to a 29. I have that much faith in it. Again, it is a tool and unless one practices with their choosen tool, it won't matter what you use as you have done yourself a disservice. Good shooting and be safe....RW

[Socrates]

LOAD MV AIT IT-1 IT-2 IT-3 IT-4 IT-5 SD :confused: What is this?

[MTS840]

The bottom line is that most all of our ideas of penetration equalling killing power are all wrong. Energy DUMP is what we need, and it needs to be done fast.


The 10mm is a great cartridge, no doubt.

But I'd take the 'energy transfer' stuff with a grain of salt. The idea sounds great, but it doesn't always work.

You need a bullet that has enough energy and momentum to disable the vital organs from any angle but still keep shooting until the threat is over, regardless of what handgun caliber you are carrying.

A determined attacker can absorb a lot of bullets, regardless of caliber or energy levels.

The psychological response of being shot cannot be predicted beforehand, so the only other means of incapacitation is physiological.

People have been shot through the torso with a .50 BMG and lived.

http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special34/articles/1106woundedvets-foster.html

A British soldier in Afghanistan was shot through the brain by a Taliban sniper and lived.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/onthefrontline/2136648/British-soldier-survives-bullet-through-brain.html

There have been guys on the battlefield who have suffered fatal wounds yet they kept advancing on their enemy until they either bled out or were unable to keep moving.

Lots of guys have taken multiple AK-47 rounds or M-16 rounds and lived.

Service caliber handguns are much less powerful.

Check this out:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs3.htm

In November 1992, South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates shot an attacker four times in the torso with his 4 inch Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum revolver. His attacker, an obese adult male who weighed almost 300 pounds, absorbed the hits and shortly thereafter returned fire with one shot from a single-action North American Arms .22 caliber mini-revolver. Coates was fatally wounded when the tiny bullet perforated his left upper arm and penetrated his chest through the armhole of his vest where the bullet cut a major artery. Coates, who was standing next to the passenger-side front fender of the assailant's car when he was hit by the fatal bullet, was very quickly incapacitated.

The slaying was recorded by the video camera mounted in Coates' cruiser. For our law enforcement readers, a copy of the video was obtained by Calibre Press a few months after the shooting, and is shown at their Street Survival seminar. Frames from the video are published on page 238 of the Calibre Press book, Tactics for Criminal Patrol. (The Coates shooting is also presented in detail on pages 239-240.)

After Coates was hit, he immediately ran several feet, scrambling around the front of the assailant's car while simultaneously radioing dispatch that he'd been shot. As he neared the driver's-side front fender he suddenly collapsed onto the pavement.

Trooper Coates fired four 145 grain Winchester Silvertip .357 Magnum bullets directly into his assailant's heavy abdomen, achieving solid hits with each. These particular bullets penetrate deeper than 125 grain JHPs, however none ruptured any vital cardiovascular structures. During the initial ground struggle, Coates was shot twice, but his vest protected him. After fighting off his attacker, Coates quickly climbed to his feet and emptied his revolver. At that particular moment the assailant was still lying on the ground. The combination of the assailant's obesity and the unusual angle at which the bullets entered his body worked to the disadvantage of Trooper Coates.

The Coates shooting exemplifies the fable of energy transfer, especially when encountering a determined attacker. The .357 Magnum cartridge is regarded by many as the ultimate manstopper; a true one-shot stop wonder. The Winchester 145 grain .357 Magnum cartridge is given a one-shot stopping power rating of 86 percent by Marshall and Sanow. According to this rating system, a single hit ANYWHERE in the torso is supposed to be highly effective in stopping an attacker, regardless of whether or not the bullet destroys vital tissue. But on this night, it failed FOUR TIMES! The assailant easily absorbed four bullets in his body, each delivering over 450 foot pounds of kinetic energy. This is equivalent to being hit four times by a baseball going approximately 210 miles per hour.

None of Coates' powerful .357 Magnum bullets were effective, but the bad guy's weak .22 caliber bullet was. The .357 Magnum bullets dumped all their energy into the attacker, whereas the single .22 caliber bullet disrupted vital tissue. The assailant survived the shooting, was convicted of murdering Coates and was sentenced to life in prison.

There are no magic bullets or calibers.

By all means, if the high energy load you are interested in does well in the now-standard FBI tests and you can control it, so much the better.

But it's still no guarantee of psychological incapacitation.

There are some people who don't even believe the so-called Strasbourg Tests even took place! How can you get any credible data from them? This is not the way scientific experiments are conducted.

The post by "IanS" has a lot of good information in it.

[Snake307]

I'm loath to jump in, but here goes.

There are probably a thousand stories where a 9mm stopped someone first shot, the "one shot stop" we hear so much about. There are also as many stories where a .45 did the same. The problem is that there are just as many stories where the round didn't, regardless of caliber.

I did work in Security many years ago, just after the stun guns came out. I got one, and had to use it once. It failed. The suspect was pumped up on enough chemicals to make anyone else high for a week. After the stun gun failed, the fight was on. I hit him with everything I could get my hands on. Not to mention my hands. I guess I should point out I was unarmed security so shooting him while certainly appropriate was not an option.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but the fight ended when I got hit by my own Maglite, twice. Yep, I got my own flashlight upside my own noggin. It had fallen out of my holder while we were fighting, and after I had shoved him against the wall, and hit him several times, he picked me up and threw me across the couch in the hotel lobby. Before I could get up, having bounced my noggin on the table, I was hit twice. I got a nice dose of tunnel vision, and couldn't get my arms moving much more than twitches. I admit readily I am alive because he choose that moment to run instead of finish me off.

After telling the cops what happened, and a couple hours at the ER, I arrived home alive, with a wicked headache, and much wiser. (I should point out I was all of 19 at the time.) He was caught, and pled guilty to some plea bargain or another.

The stun gun should have worked, but it didn't. Hitting him should have worked, it didn't. Shooting him might have worked.

I was lucky, and I know it. I was involved in other incidents, where training and skills did work. That one, they just didn't work like I was used to them working. I have never faced anyone who could take as many punches as I was throwing, and bounce his head off the wall, and still come back stronger than before. Not before him, and not since. I've been in bar-fights, the bear pit in the Army, and tons of combat training since. Never have seen anyone who was utterly immune to everything I could think of or try.

So the round may matter, but in the end, it's never give up, keep fighting for your life. The end of the article linked above, says that if your weapon doesn't stop him, be prepared to use your patrol knife, your bare hands, but keep fighting. Absolutely, and a little divine assistance would certainly be welcome.

[Catfishman]

Pros-
Better performing round when loaded properly
Better trajectory/potential accuracy at distance
Potential capacity advantage when compared to other large rounds

Cons-
Expensive/Difficult to find
Not all 10mm loads = 10mm maximum performance
Larger weapons
Increased recoil compared to 9mm (no one complains about .45's though for some reason)

In summary: The 10 mm is a better round if you are willing to pay more for your ammo, choose you ammo carefully, can handle the recoil of a .45 and can handle a full-sized pistol. So, why use anything else for self defense unless you are a poor man with tiny hands?

[a7mmnut]

Those are the titles for each of the columns:

Load

Muzzle Velocity

Average Incapacitation Time

Each Numbered Shot in the string, recorded in seconds of incapacitation time

Standard Deviation of the string time in seconds

-7-

[roman3]

In summary: The 10 mm is a better round if you are willing to pay more for your ammo, choose you ammo carefully, can handle the recoil of a .45 and can handle a full-sized pistol. So, why use anything else for self defense unless you are a poor man with tiny hands?


No No No .... he (the OP, one of the 7 people who support the 10mm) asked for a summary with no BIAS in it. Clearly you failed in this regard however, you were able to have a humerous response. So thanks for playing. ;)

[Catfishman]

Roman3 - What's your beef with the 10mm? Judging by the number and content of your posts on this thread you can't stand the thought of them. Stop antagonizing with overstatements and opinions and gives some facts. Why is my humerous statement untrue.

There is very little difference in the recoil of a hot loaded 10mm and a .45+P.
So, if you can handle a .45 you can handle a 10mm.

The Glock 20 holds 15 rounds only 2 less than a Glock 17.

The Glock 20SF is no larger than the Glock 21SF. Neither is "huge". And the Glock 29 is small.

I bought a box of 10mm practice rounds for less than $21 out the door. How much do .45s cost?

Most of all the 10mm is more powerful than a .357 Magnum and it leaves a bigger wound channel.

My point is the same old tired arguments against the 10mm don't hold water.

The 9mm is a good round
The .45 is a Great round
But the 10mm is an incredible round.

[jgcoastie]

The 9mm is a good round
The .45 is a Great round
But the 10mm is an incredible round.

+1 Catfishman


With the WFNGC 200gr bullets I keep loaded for bears up here, penetration and wound channel are not matched by any semi-auto pistol round I've ever seen.

(DISCLAIMER: This is not a 'technical' summary, only my observations while shooting.)

Case in point #1
I was rabbit hunting one day, not having any luck, so on my way back to the truck I decided to put my then-new Glock 20 and WFNGC bullets to the test. I found a stump that had been cut recently (I remember a full tree being there the previous month) it was about 40-45 inches in diameter. I dropped to one knee, put five rounds through the stump (mountain was about 25 yds behind the stump) and found five grapefruit-size holes on the other side of the stump. Two thumbs up.

Case in point #2
At the outdoor range, found a massive snow/ice heap where a member had plowed the trail to the lanes. WFNGC 200gr bullets penetrated 12 feet into the mound, it more 'smushed' than expanded, but it was a big hole. Speer Gold Dot 165gr penetrated 14", full expansion. 40 s&w Speer Gold Dot 165gr penetrated 12", about 50% expansion. (It took a very long time to recover those bullets, not sure it was worth it in hindsight.) Am I equating snow/ice mix with animal/human flesh? No. That's just what I did to satisfy my own curiosity. Am I satisfied with my Glock 22 as a SD/HD gun? Yes. Am I satisfied with my Glock 20 as a HD/SD gun? Yes, as well as it being a decent protection round against bears (when loaded with the right rounds) while I'm hunting/fishing/hiking/camping. Two thumbs up for both.

Is the 45acp a great SD/HD round? Yes, if the gun fits you. Is the 40s&w a great SD/HD round? Yes, if the gun fits you. Is the 9mm a great SD/HD round? Maybe not great, but good enough, if the gun fits you. Is the 10mm a great SD/HD gun, as well as a great companion when afield in predator country? YES, with the proper loads for the job, and if the gun fits you.

Important, end-all, be-all: IF THE GUN FITS YOU! If it doesn't, don't buy it. If you did buy it, sell it and get a proper gun that fits you and you can control.

The mighty 10, just like every other caliber in existence; with the right loads, does a great job. It's just a little more versatile than most handgun calibers if you can properly shoot with it. To deny such is pure bias, false information, and/or pure ignorance of the subject matter.

[roman3]

Stop antagonizing with overstatements and opinions and gives some facts

Have you read all my posts? I have no beef with the 10mm, I have a beef (and not really much of one) with guys who claim it is the best, the end all be all, the answer and other such stuff. You asked why is the 10mm not THE round and you got plenty of answers and you and the 10mm zealots choose to ignore them and continue on your 10mm is the best chant.

Which are these facts? or overstatements and opinions?

The Glock 20SF is no larger than the Glock 21SF. Neither is "huge". And the Glock 29 is small.

Most of all the 10mm is more powerful than a .357 Magnum and it leaves a bigger wound channel.

The 9mm is a good round
The .45 is a Great round
But the 10mm is an incredible round

And to JG Coastie:

The mighty 10, just like every other caliber in existence; with the right loads, does a great job. It's just a little more versatile than most handgun calibers if you can properly shoot with it. To deny such is pure bias, false information, and/or pure ignorance of the subject matter.

And they accuse Glock guys of drinking Kool-Aid!.

You guys and the other 10 people enjoy your wonder round that so many others have failed to appreciate for 20 years.

[IanS]

10mm is a versatile cartrdge. It can be a jack of all trades for someone who can only have one handgun to cover a variety of tasks. But in reality it is a master of none.

If I ever go hunting with a handgun I'd rather do it with a .44 Magnum or up for a cleaner kill. And for larger animals like elk 10mm is not really appropriate.

For self defense against dangerous animals (bears and moose) again .44 Magnum and up at the absolute minimum. Even then, pray for a quick merciful death.

For self defense against human threats there are plenty great loads in .45, .40, and 9mm that can perform about equally (see DocGKR's research referenced in this thread) at the same time being more controllable, available in more compact packages, and more proven platforms to choose from. Intermediate barrier is where a heavy full power 10mm can show its edge. But I don't envision myself shooting at people through car windshields. If you do okay go for the 10mm.

Again, I like the 10mm fine. I'd probably own a Glock 20 if ammo tended to be a bit more available and a little bit cheaper. I just dont' believe there is such a thing as "king" of all auto cartridges.

YMMV

[jgcoastie]

10mm is a versatile cartrdge. It can be a jack of all trades for someone who can only have one handgun to cover a variety of tasks. But in reality it is a master of none.

If I ever go hunting with a handgun I'd rather do it with a .44 Magnum or up for a cleaner kill. And for larger animals like elk 10mm is not really appropriate.

For self defense against dangerous animals (bears and moose) again .44 Magnum and up at the absolute minimum. Even then, pray for a quick merciful death.

For self defense against human threats there are plenty great loads in .45, .40, and 9mm that can perform about equally (see DocGKR's research referenced in this thread) at the same time being more controllable, available in more compact packages, and more proven platforms to choose from. Intermediate barrier is where a heavy full power 10mm can show its edge. But I don't envision myself shooting at people through car windshields. If you do okay go for the 10mm.

Again, I like the 10mm fine. I'd probably own a Glock 20 if ammo tended to be a bit more available and a little bit cheaper. I just dont' believe there is such a thing as "king" of all auto cartridges.


So the 10mm is not a great round because of the heavy recoil/shooter's inability to control it: So the answer is a .44 Magnum???

10mm may not be the best load for dealing with large, dangerous game, but the .380 isn't all that great for dealing with human threats either, but people carry it.

Just like I wouldn't stand in front of you while you were shooting at me with a .380, I haven't met an angry animal (brown bear, black bear, wolf, mountain lion, panther, hog) that stood in front of me while I was shooting at it with my 10mm.

I don't believe I said the 10mm was the end-all be-all, but I did say that if the gun fits you, it just about cannot be beaten by any other semi-auto round.

[IanS]

So the 10mm is not a great round because of the heavy recoil/shooter's inability to control it: So the answer is a .44 Magnum???



Where......did I say that?:confused::rolleyes:

Here, let me try to make it clearer for you.

I'm planning on going on a hunting trip this weekend with a handgun. I go to safe. I open safe. I take out Ruger Super Redhawk .44 Magnum revolver with a scope. I take Super Redhawk .44 Magnum revolver hunting.

I want to protect myself in the home or on the streets. I go to safe. I open safe. I take out Glock 19. I load and/or carry said pistol.

You see there are two different pistols that I believe are better suited for each specific task.

If, I was forced to only own ONE handgun and I need it for hunting AND (urban) personal defense I'd probably choose a Glock 20 10mm.

If you can shoot a 10mm pistol as effectively as a 9mm/.40/.45 (one hand, weak hand, with a flashlight etc) more power to you. I feel I'm more effective overall with a 9mm/.40/.45 in those situations.

The fact someone needs to crown a single caliber the "KING" or "BEST" was a faulty premise to begin with.

[jgcoastie]

Meant no offense IanS, it's just that people have been knocking the 10mm for it's heavy recoil, and then others suggest a .44 mag in it's place. I found it humorous. I know the two ideas were from different people, it's just kinda funny.

As a side-note; I don't hunt with my G20. Probably never will. However it does give me a little warm fuzzy feeling when I'm rabbit hunting with my .22lr in bear country. Or fishing in bear country. Or wolf/mountain lion/anything that sees me as an afternoon snack - country.


The fact someone needs to crown a single caliber the "KING" or "BEST" was a faulty premise to begin with.

Much like the versatile .30/06, IMVHO the 10mm is versatile enough for most applications, but there is usually a caliber out there that does that specific job better.