P7 psp vs. sig 239

[Timtheenchanted]

I have the opportunity to trade my used 229 DAK .40, which I don't really like to shoot (I'm just not a huge .40 fan or DAK fan for that matter, got the gun for cheap) for either a LNIB HK P7 PSP german police trade in or trade plus $50 for a new 239 9mm. Either way this will become my summer carry piece as I am currently carrying a P220 beavertail while I can reasonably hide it under heavy clothing.

Now I know the sig operation/manual of arms, and I like the way they shoot, but I just find the P7 desirable because of its unique operation and simplicity of use. With the intended pupose to be a concealable, acurrate, and fast shooting carry gun which would you pick? (and I don't want to hear glock because I've had them I just don't like them as much as sigs/hk's, no offense) I am leaning toward the P7, it fits my hand well and the novelty is appealing to me. Also the 239 grip feels a little too narrow for me and square in the front.

Any thoughts would be appreciated, especially from folks who have/carry one or both of these great pistols.

[Officer's Match]

I voted P7, strictly because I really want one badly.

[blume357]

what is unusual about the P7's operating system?

[goodspeed(TPF)]

The P7s I have are more accurate, reliable and kick less than comparable Sigs. P7 baby. :)

[David the Gnome]

You know, I like the Sig better but they aren't making anymore of the P7's, you should get one now while you can. You can always get another P239 later, and if you got the SAS version you could even get one that wasn't as blocky as the one you have right now.

[Wiskey_33]

I love my P7. VERY accurate and reliable. They're pretty darn cool too.

[Officer's Match]

what is unusual about the P7's operating system?

Squeeze cocking action (and manual of arms), gas retarded lockup with fixed barrel, one of the first polygonal barrels on a duty sidearm (IIRC), ultra low barrel bore axis.

[oneounceload]

I own a P7, but I voted the other way - for one reason - easier to get magazines and other accessories, and the potential to get it fixed easier as well. If it was just going tpo be a range/collector gun, then get the P-7; but, IMO, for CCW, go with something new and readily available

[Nytelyte]

I carry a P7. My bud carries a 239..

He loves his. I love mine. They are both safe, high quality firearms.. Get what fits you.

Parts and repair for the P7 is declining, as they are not made any more. Holsters are harder to find, this guy : http://www.haugenhandgunleather.com/
builds really sweet stuff. (no affil, happy customer)

But the P7 is just that much cooler.

[PSP]

The Sig is a gun I looked at seriously a few years ago when hunting for a new CCW. While it has some excellent features, it never "sang" to me. :rolleyes: It just felt awkward in my hand, so I passed on it in favor of another similar pistol.

I also tested and tried the P7 at that time, and came to the conclusion it was not the gun for me. The P7 also has some outstanding features, but the trigger is too light for my liking in a CCW. :o

Both are reliable, accurate, well made pistols. Pick the one that "sings" to you. I did and I haven't looked back. :D

[AK103K]

A lots going to depend on you and how well you deal with the P7's manual of arms, and how much time you put in with it.

I had a P7M13 when they first came out and carried it for a couple of years. Great gun, but you almost have to pick it, or everything else when it comes to using it. Its not a hard transition, but not one your going to want to be switching back and forth with.

If you have to think about what your doing when you draw the gun, then thats not the gun you want. If your not dedicated to the P7, your going to be thinking about it. The only way to do this is, to make sure that EVERY time the gun is in your hand, its cocked and held. EVERY time. If you dont train your brain to do it without thought, you'll be thinking about it. Its not hard to do with a little practice, but you have to make sure you understand that it needs to be done.

You also have to make sure your finger is out of the trigger when you cock the gun, or the gun may very well, and more likely will, go bang.

My only complaint with the P7( this really isnt an issue with the PSP, due to its heel release) was its tendency to leave the mag in the gun on the front seat when I got out. This was more a holster issue than anything else, but at the time, I only had the choice of two decent holsters, and both did not cover the mag releases. My seat belt took full advantage at every opportunity.

While I did like my P7 very much, and it is one of the most accurate pistols I've ever owned and shot, I sold it a couple of years later, for more than one reason. The main reason was cost. In the few years I owned it, its price had more than doubled (I only paid $450 for it new). Everything HK back then went nuts. Mags went up to $125/ea. Good holsters for it were still (has this gotten any better?) non existent, and the mag thing was driving me crazy. I also want something a little hotter than the 9mm. I dont really regret getting rid of it (I doubled my money when I sold it), but I would like to pick up another.


I also have a P239. Its a plain Jane, DA, in 357SIG. It too is a great gun, accurate and reliable. I dont carry it much either these days, since the difference in size between it and my P229 is negligible, and I get 5 more rounds of 357SIG out of my P229.

If it was going to be a choice of only one, I'd go with the P239 over the P7. If your thinking P239, I'd look at the P229 and the same time, side by side, and think about those extra 5 rounds.

I have the same issue as you with the P239 grips being to "skinny". I also hate the Houge rubber grips, especially the ones with the finger grooves. I ended up with Houge checkered Coco bolo(would prefer Nill's, but I bitched about the cost of the Houge's :) ), which feel real good. I just wish SIG would offer their standard plastic stocks with more swell. I like them the best.

One other thing. When I first went to SIG's, I went to the P220 (from my 1911's). Great gun, but I was soon hooked on 357SIG when I shot my first one. You get a gun that performs as well or better than the .45, and again, almost double the ammo in a gun the same size (P226/P229). Keeps the ammo issue simple too. Whats not to like? :)

[Turbocharged]

I have both and vote P7 hands down. It is dead nuts accurate, has an amazing trigger, and is 100% reliable. I hate the trigger on my P239, it isn't nearly as comfortable in your hand, the sight acquisition isn't nearly as natural feeling or fast, and it has more noticeable muzzle jump after each shot. It is still a good gun and is also 100% reliable (if it wasn't I would have sold it by now), but it just isn't in the same league as the P7 for my tastes. My P7 is the gun I carry 95% of the time.

AK103K....The P7M13's sell for roughly $2000+ today.

[bufordtjustice]

I have a P7M8 I carry a lot. It is truly an awesome little firearm. I would suggest as others have to go with the PSP as they are no longer being made.

[Laserlips]

JMOfartO:

I had a Sig P239 for years. I replaced the factory grips with rubber Hogues, (a great improvement), then the Hogues with Crimson Trace Lasergrips. (Further improvement.).

The Sig P239 NEVER failed in any way, shape, or form, and was very accurate, and IMO one of the best single stack 9's ever made. My only complaint with my Sig P239 is that the trigger never felt "perfect" for me. There is a "short trigger" available but I just never thought to change it out. I think for the average person considering a cc weapon in single stack the Sig P239 would probably be a better choice than an HK P7.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6350.jpg

Now, having said that.

I SOLD my Sig P239 to finance my second "A" grade CDNN Lower Saxony Police surplus HK P7.

At the time the Sig was not my 9mm cc weapon (it was a Walther P99c/AS), so I just wasn't using it much.

After I received my first HK P7 I was so impressed that I sold the Sig, (and a few other pistols/revolvers I was no longer actively using) to buy two more.

Absolutely nothing wrong with a Sig P239... But it's never gonna be an HK P7. (In the same manner that I sold a NAA Guardian after buying a Seecamp LWS32. The NAA Guardian was an excellent pistol, but it wasn't ever going to be a Seecamp.* )

The "squeeze-cocker" HK P7 is simply a unique firearm. It is generally acknowledged to be one of the finest 9mm pistols ever designed.. It is absolutely top quality, and the most accurate 9mm pistol I've ever owned. Period.. In fact I thought my Walther P99c/AS was accurate, because it was certainly more accurate than any other 9mm pistol I had ever shot, until I fired my first magazine of 8 rounds through my first HK P7.. P7 is more accurate, hands down. I later found out that my second and third P7's were equally accurate.

I DON'T think the average cc person would be as happy with the HK P7 as he/she would with the more conventional Sig P239. But I think those "gun" folks who bought, or even shot, a P7 and LIKED it wouldn't settle for anything else. The Sig is fine, the HK P7 is fine, and unique.

I think a potential buyer should at least hold a P7 (and preferably shoot) before buying, UNLESS he/she has more than one cc firearm available. The P7 is "sorta" heavy, will heat up after 5-6 mags fired in rapid succession, and it's not as simple to clean as the Sig... Actually it's not hard to disassemble and clean, but the gas chamber is something that needs attention after 500 or so rounds. (As recommended by the mfg.)

For example, as much as I love my P7's, on those occasions I feel the need to carry a larger centerfire weapon (in ADDITION to my LWS380) I often chose the S&W CS9 (or CS45). Less drama, but a bit easier to carry, for me. And heck we all know the 3gS pistols get no respect, but my CS9 will put all rounds in the X ring at 7 yards.. Not as tight a group as the P7, but still in the X ring..

The HKP7 is a "nitch" weapon. It's just unusual enough to be unique, and gives the owner a feeling of pride and quality that is hard to find in another pistol.. The HK P7 is rarely a cc choice, but for those persons who appreciate them I think they are an excellent carry choice. The nature of the design of the HK P7 makes it absolutely reliable, and the squeezecocker is as inherently safe as you'll find in a loaded firearm.

Someone mentioned squeezing the cocker and pulling the trigger at the same time will fire the weapon? HELLO? Of course it does, because that's the way it's designed AND because if you are stupid enough to both SQUEEZE the cocker, AND pull the trigger UNLESS you intend to fire the weapon you are too dumb to be out in public with a loaded gun.

The squeezecocker aspect makes the pistol MORE safe than most pistols, not less.

I don't think most folks with P7's actually carry them on a daily basis... Too many other fine choices in todays firearm market.. For instance even being a single stack will "turn off" some folks who think they need more capacity, and other's with no experience with a squeezecocker will simply never feel "comfortable" with it's unique cocking/firing setup.

But IF you get one and like it, you won't ever get rid of it. And the first time you take it to the range and out shoot your buddies Glock/Sig/Walther/XD/etc. the performance of the HK P7 WILL bring a smile to your face that is hard to wipe off...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8649.jpg

I liked my first HK P7 so much that I wanted a spare, or two.. That oughta' tell you something.

Just personal opinion, no offense to those who disagree.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

* Just personal opinion again, as the Seecamp is similarly a "nitch" weapon.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_8789.jpg

[Pilot]

The P7 is a superior firearm. The accuracy, softer recoil and less muzzle rise will make you a believer. Nothing wrong with the Sig, but the P7 is just better, at least for me.

[Timtheenchanted]

Thanks for the respondse guys. It looks like the majority of you lean toward the P7. Got a chance to handle one this morning feels good in the hand and points as well as my p220. Also I guess I don't understand the hang up with the squeeze-cocker/light trigger. When I take a strong firing grip it cocks the gun and you keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on target. Oh and also the P7's my shop has in (pre-sold before they arrived)look brand new, just some slight rub marks from the plastic HK box's.

So unless something happens I am gunna go with the P7. It just feels like a gun in my hand, while the 239 just feels abbreviated and I don't like the low profile controls on it. Plus if I end up not liking it, which i guess is fairly uncommon by the respondses, I could simply trade it for a 239 as the value on these P7's keeps going up.

As far as other points brought up, I want to stick with a 9mm as I would have a lot of options in SD bullets and inexpensive practice ammo. On capacity I carry a single stack .45 now so "only" having 9 shots in the gun doesn't bother me, plus I carry extra mags/ a bug(airweight snubby) depending on where I'm going. And for the 229 suggestion, I have one and I just find it a bit too thick in the slide for summer carry under a t-shirt.

Now hopefully my shop got more P7's today (they were ordered yesterday morning)as I am 1st on the list for one and the next one is mine, plus I get my pick of the 3 coming in. Thanks again for the input, again I know the 239 is a great pistol and would make a great carry gun, but I guess it just doesn't "sing" to me like the P7. And don't get me wrong I like sigs, I have a 220, 226, and at the moment a 229 that all have functioned 100% for me and are outstanding shooters.

Thanks again for the input.

[alienbogey]

Sounds like you've decided and for the best reason - you're picking the one that feels best to you.

I bought my first P7 one week ago. I went to my local shop to again handle a Walther PPS and a Kahr PM9 as I had narrowed my choice for a new pistol to those two. The shop owner and I got to talking and I mentioned recently reading about P7's - a pistol I knew nothing about before running across an internet discussion of them - and he said, "I have one here in the case."

I picked it up, sighted down it, did that a few more times and knew I was going to buy it. To borrow the term from an earlier poster, it immediately 'sang' to me, and an hour later it was following me home.

Beside the innate satisfaction of owning an extremely high quality pistol that fits you you're going to attract some attention with it at ranges and such. Last night I went to a steel plate shoot, my first, and naturally the friendly bunch that introduced themselves wanted to know what I was going to shoot. I became a mild celebrity because of the P7.

Typical comments were, "Hey, I'm going up against the squeeze-cocker", "Hey, I beat the P7" ( :mad: ), and "I think that's just the coolest pistol ever made." Those who didn't know about P7's were then coming up to me and asking about it.

It takes maybe 10% more effort/time to clean than a standard pistol - it field strips easily, clean everything like you would any other pistol, then make sure the piston gets wiped down and run patches through the gas chamber. There is a more involved cleaning that the book recommends at longer intervals that I haven't done yet.

As you said, if you ever grow dissatisfied with it (unlikely) you'll always get what you paid for it, if not more.

[AK103K]

The P7M13's sell for roughly $2000+ today.
HK's are really the only firearms I've bought, that I actually made good money on when I sold them. I bought all of mine back when they were still realistic, and not subject to bans and HK's attitude towards the public. (you could still call them direct then and order parts and accessories direct) I paid $450 for my HK94 (and $350 for the conversion) and sold it for $15,000. Both my HK91's were right around $550, and I got a little over $2000 for each of them, and that was ten years ago. The P7M13, I sold for $975. I made a chunk of change on all the accessories too.

Every one of my HK's was 110% reliable, and more accurate than you'd ever think that a gun of their type would be.

Someone mentioned squeezing the cocker and pulling the trigger at the same time will fire the weapon? HELLO? Of course it does, because that's the way it's designed AND because if you are stupid enough to both SQUEEZE the cocker, AND pull the trigger UNLESS you intend to fire the weapon you are too dumb to be out in public with a loaded gun.
If your familiar with the gun and how it works, its a no brainer, if your not, its not quite that simple. I've had people who where shooting mine, do just that, and they were not "untrained" individuals. Back when they first came out, the NJ state police were one of the first to use them as an issue weapon, and they had problems, not unlike those agancys that first issued Glocks. More than a few troopers shot themselves handling or holstering their guns.

Personally, I believe its a design flaw, not something to be desired. Discussing just this with those who had it go off, and others, it was almost always thought there would have been a disconnector on the trigger if it wasnt cocked before it was pulled. Not that I dont agree with you about your finger being in the trigger, but it is also an issue for someone who has just fired the gun, unintentionally released the cocker, and then quickly recocks without removing the finger first. (This was usually the problem when it happened.)

One other thing I didnt notice mentioned about the P7, was their speed of reload.

I dont think there is anther pistol out there that is as fast to get back into action (especially the M13, with its gaping mag well and narrow topped mag.) Once the replaced mag is in place, you simply "squeeze", and your back in action. Then again though, you'd better be paying attention to that trigger finger. :)


The squeezecocker aspect makes the pistol MORE safe than most pistols, not less.
In some respects, yes, if the person handling it understands it and is competent. No, if your not familiar with it.

From the standpoint of someone getting it away from you, or if its dropped, yes, it offers an advantage.

I don't think most folks with P7's actually carry them on a daily basis... Too many other fine choices in todays firearm market.. For instance even being a single stack will "turn off" some folks who think they need more capacity, and other's with no experience with a squeezecocker will simply never feel "comfortable" with it's unique cocking/firing setup.
I carried mine every waking moment for about two years. Like I said before, you basically need to dedicate yourself to the gun if your going to carry it if you dont want that nagging doubt in the back of your mind.

If I were to get another, it too would be a M13. The M8 does fit my hand better, but these days, I want as many rounds as I can get in the gun, especially if its a smaller caliber. I want more in the ones that are the larger caliber. Single stacks are backups.

Laserlips, I see with one of your holsters, the brown one, that they addressed covering the mag release. The ones I had didnt.

Another issue with the P7's, especially the M13's was, if you wore the gun IWB "appendix" fashion, and bent forward, the gun and holster would usually flip out of my pants and end up hanging upside down in front of my pants. One time it came out of the holster completely and fell to the floor. Luckily, it happened at the house, and not out in public. I stopped using that holster (a modified "Pistol Pocket") carrying it that way. The problem there is, the short barrel and most of the weight being in the butt, makes the gun top heavy with nothing (like a barrel)to hold in. The weight over rides the short barrel and out it comes.

You definitely need a proper holster for them, but especially if your carrying it in a way other than most normally do.



* Just personal opinion again, as the Seecamp is similarly a "nitch" weapon.
If your definition of "niche" is "on your person everywhere but the shower" (they are shower friendly too, they do fit nicely in the soap dish. :) ) every minute of every day, then yea, thats its niche. Its the one gun I'm absolutely never without.

[Timtheenchanted]

Good point on the holster, I carry in a MTAC (IWB) now and I just checked they do make a kydex shell for the P7 (psp). So that should work as I find the MTAC very comfortable with my p220, the P7 should feel even better.

[BanditSRT8]

The Sig is good, the HK is better.

Simply put, get the P7. I'm not a PSP fan per se, I carry a P7M8, you can't get better as long as the grip suits you.

Holsters are easy to come by.

Mags are easy to come by.

No worries.

[Sixer]

Dang it! You are really going to make me pick one over the other :eek:

I have both and while there is NO other gun like the P7 (I love mine dearly) I am gonna have to go with the P239. As stated before... mags are cheaper, holsters are easier to find, and cleaning it is not too difficult. Even though the P7 is amazingly accurate, the P239 is no slouch. It too is a very accurate gun in my experience. Either way you cant go wrong. But when push come to shove, I gotta give my vote to the Sig P239 :)

[Ace_Breaker]

The P7 is the most reliable, accurate, concealable 9mm I own. I loved the first one so much I got two more. It isn't a fluke that when I take people shooting they want to purchase a P7 afterwards. Not a CZ, Glock, or Sig that I took along.

[Sgt Pepper]

My experience is nearly identical to laserlips. I owned a P239 for about 8 years for the sole purpose of CCW, sold it last year, and don't miss it. I bought my P7 a little less than two years ago and haven't looked back.

While mags and holsters may be less expensive and/or more readily available for the P239 than the P7, we are talking about CCW and self defense here.

[Turbocharged]

Timtheenchanted: I carry my P7 in the MTAC as well. Extremely thin profile and very comfortable.

[Sgt Pepper]

BTW, I carry my P7 in a Mitch Rosen ARG and love it.

[Trebor]

I've owned both and I sold all my P7's and now I'm looking for a second 239.

I was really enamored of the P7 for awhile. It is a *nifty* design.

But, after one about four or five different examples over the course of a year and a half, I decided it wasn't the pistol for me.

It always pointed low in my hand and was actually slower to get on target with for the first shot then pretty much any other pistol I own.

I found it to be dead nuts accurate out to about 10 yards or so for me, but past that my practical accuracy dropped off rapidly. I struggled keeping the shots on a paper plate at 25 yards which I something I could easily do with my other carry guns.

I did try carrying a P7 for awhile, first a M8 and later a PSP. I had a couple accidental mag releases with the M8, which is why I later bought a PSP.

I tried a Mitch Rosen ARG at first, but never liked how it felt. Later I got a Milt Sparks Versa Max II and that worked better, although the holstered pistol still felt very top heavy.

There were a couple things that finally made me decide that the P7 wasn't for me and sell all my examples. The first was that during one range trip I realized I shot my $150 Makarov better then my $1,000 P7. That was disconcerting.

The other was when we realized that while my wife could shoot the P7 just fine with two hands, she struggled to compress the squeeze cocker enough to cock the pistol with her strong hand only and couldn't do it at all with her weak hand only. Since this was to be a defensive pistol for both of us (we had "his and her" guns) that was the final straw.

For the 239, the grip is a little small for my hand, but after using the pistol for a four day instructor's class at the Sig Arms Academy I grew used to the grip and really started to learn how to shoot that little pistol very well.

My gun is the standard DA/SA and now I'm looking for either a second standard model or a DAK model.

[Shadi Khalil]

I picked the 239, but I was faced with the choice of the two. When I bought my 239 it was the first gun I had bought after losing a strong and growing collection. It came down to both those and I picked the 239. I really wanted the HK but I had shot the 239 before hand and really liked it. If I'd had the chance to shoot the HK I might have bought it. I have no regrets, its my favorite gun thus far.

[Timtheenchanted]

Well I am going with the P7 PSP, They do seem to point well for me, as well as my sigs and 1911. Plus it is a real bargain for me as I got my 229 for WAY under value (~475) and this will be a straight trade. And I will probably get a 239 later anyway, or if I don't like how the P7 shoots I can probably straight trade it to someone for a 239. Thanks for all the input guys.

[SigfanTN]

I have both, and have been trying to carry both. I still lean toward the 239 since that is what I have been carrying the most and before I got the P7.

I have put 3000-4000 rounds through the 239, and I am very comfortable with it.

I will have to say that I pined over getting a P7 for some time because they are so unique and I'd heard nothing but good things about them. Well everything about them is true. It points very naturally for me and is accurate as all get out. It also has a cool factor that most other guns just don't (including my Sig).

I guess it really boils down to what AK103K said:
you basically need to dedicate yourself to the gun if your going to carry it if you dont want that nagging doubt in the back of your mind.

I need a good bit more time at the range with this pistol before I can fully commit to carrying it.

My Sig has NEVER failed me, so it's still my main carry piece.

To answer your question, I think your decision to get the P7 is good since they are only going to go up in price, and it sounds like you were getting a better deal on it anyway. Like you say, the 239 will be available later and probably cheaper than what the P7's will be in the future.

[Dave85]

I voted P7. For me, the P7 represents one of those rare occasions when my expectations have been vindicated by reality. It pointed naturally, and shot more accurately for me than any handgun I have fired. So, I dug deep and picked up the the P7(M8), and I do carry it most every day in a Horseshoe Leather beltslide.

[Ace_Breaker]

I moved all of my Sigs to make room for these. Not that I dislike Sigs, it's just that these were a step above. Of the three, I've never had a misfire, malfunction, or flaw of any kind. They have fed all ammo I've put into them. The performance is impressive.


http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee359/Ace_Breaker/IMG_0211.jpg

[bob.a]

Nice thing about the P7, it more or less forces you to use good technique. A nice tight grip is mandatory if you want it to fire. Also the absence of switches, levers and extraneous hardware on the frame makes it nice for CC; nothing to hang up on, no worries about the safety carrying cocked and locked or having to push the lever up or down. And there's the trigger. Nicest you'll find in a semiauto. Also one of the most attractive pistols I've ever seen, but that's just my opinion.

I prefer the heel mag release, which is good because it's also cheaper, with all the surplus German pistols coming into the market.

[Pilot]

I have a P228. Nice gun, but I just don't like the high bore axis and blockiness of the pistol. Its just not for me. The P7, however, points like an extension of my arm, has little muzzle flip and is very accurate. I have a P7M8 and PSP. I carry the PSP and keep the M8 for the range.