How Many Spare Mags?

[scgunrunner]

On a given day, how many spare magazines do you carry for your CCW? Do you vary the ammunition types in the back-up mags (i.e. one FMJ/JSP, one JHP)?

[Jeff B.]

One, filled with the same JHP as the one in the pistol. Two empty spares that get rotated about every other month (ideally) when I fire off the filled mags. I use all four mags at the range and switch from nickel/silver to blued. Keeps it simple for me, which is good.

Jeff B.

[Creature]

Now that's an interesting question I hadnt considered until you asked.

When I carried a single spare mag, I only filled the mag with JHP. Now that I have a double mag pouch which I recently purchased, I just might keep the first mag loaded with JHP and the second mag loaded with FMJ...

I must ponder this.

[scorpion_tyr]

I keep two spare mags. Both loaded with the same JHP's as the primary.

[hecate]

I carry two spares with an 8-round 1911, or one with 15-round Mec-Gars in a Hi-Power. Although I can't remember the last time I carried my BHP.

I've been considering going to 10-round spare mags for my bobtail Commander. That would give me 29 total, almost as many as 31 in the 9mm, and with a lot more clout.

[VHinch]

I only carry one spare, loaded the same as what's in the weapon, but I also carry a backup weapon.

[Firepower!]

I used to carry a bunch but now it depends on the type of holster. If it allows 3 fine, and if it does not allow any....fine that is as well.

Usually, no spare mags until special circumstances.

[Creature]

Usually, no spare mags until special circumstances.

Like when confronted with mall or school shootings?

[hoytinak]

Don't carry a spare mag, just the one that's in the gun.

[sserdlihc]

Don't carry a spare mag, just the one that's in the gun.

Spoken by a member who has carried a concealed firearm for a while:D

[Deet]

My bulldog holster has a pouch on it for an extra mag, I load it with the same rounds that are in the gun 124gr JHP.

[Wildalaska]

Don't carry a spare mag, just the one that's in the gun.

Ditto...6 rounds of the potent 32acp:D

Like when confronted with mall or school shootings?

Since I'm not a student or a NetRambo or a cop, I will use my civilian piece to fight my way to the M1A in the truck. By that time, the Anchorage PD will be there and I can finish my mallburger

WildpacifistAlaska TM

[JohnH1963]

What if someone challenges you to a shooting contest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

[Creature]

I will use my civilian piece to fight my way to the M1A in the truck. By that time, the Anchorage PD will be there and I can finish my mallburger

Pacifist...or optimist? Ever been to church?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,316322,00.html

[Brian Pfleuger]

Ever been to church?

Hundreds of times. Peacefully. Along with hundreds of millions of other Americans who have collectively been to church 100's of BILLIONS of times, even in the most violent prone areas of the country with nary a problem among them. I mean really. People have been killed by meteorites crashing through their house. Do you build your house for that eventuality? You'll also note that the event you referenced was resolved without need of an arsenal. The line for events we prepare for has to be drawn somewhere.

The odds of my needing the first bullet in my CCW are probably .001%, the odds of needing the last one in the magazine are probably .000001%. Now what are the odds of not just needing but emptying a spare mag? Unless you're in a literal war zone (I know a few of us actually are) it's a bit over the top to be considering the need for that much firepower.

[Sam06]

Just the Rounds in the Weapon, 13 rds JHP.

[Creature]

Unless you're in a literal war zone (I know a few of us actually are) it's a bit over the top to be considering the need for that much firepower.

"Arsenal"..."war zone"...over the top"..."that much firepower"....an "anti" couldn't have said it better!

[Brian Pfleuger]

An "anti" couldn't have said it better!

So just in case there's a Hollywood shootout type situation, you are prepared with several high powered rifles in your vehicle? You wear body armor full-time, 24/7? You never know if you'll be the first casualty. You have to be ready. You can't wait for the shooting to start to don your gear. You'll need at least a high-cap primary with a minimum of 2 spares mags. Better bring an identical spare gun just in case. Don't forget your bug in case things really get ugly. Oh, and better carry a ballistic shield on your back in case there's no convenient cover while you retreat to your armored vehicle to retrieve the real firepower.

Seriously. Saying there has to be a logical limit to your preparations makes me an "anti"? I'd say it's more likely that I just have things that are FAR more probable to worry about. If you REALLY REALLY want to be that paranoid, I'll let you. That's why I'm different than an anti. I don't want to take away your right to be as paranoid as you want to be. I just choose logic over fanaticism. You do what you want.

[BikerRN]

Having had need of a gun, notice I typed NEED, not want, three times in my life and that one of them was a BUG, I carry at least one spare magazine but I prefer two. I also carry at least one spare gun, but I prefer two. I also carry reloads for the spare guns too.

I practice "Confrontational Avoidance" when I am off the clock. For me, the use of a deadly weapon is an act of last resort. I have no doubt that I was capable of using a deadly weapon three times in the past. How I do the next time will be determined when it happens, but I will do my best to be prepared for it.

Biker

[Wildalaska]

I'm prepped, I wear a tinfoil hat :)

WildasameteorhelmetAlaska ™

[Creature]

So just in case there's a Hollywood shootout type situation, you are prepared with several high powered rifles in your vehicle?

Apparently some of us do...for starters, wildalaska, by his own admission, keeps a rifle in his truck.

Saying there has to be a logical limit to your preparations makes me an "anti"?

Nope, just pointing out how your verbiage is quite similar to what antis use in their arguments for gun control.


That's why I'm different than an anti. I don't want to take away your right to be as paranoid as you want to be. I just choose logic over fanaticism. You do what you want.

Are you saying that not preparing for the illogical is logical?

Many here on TFL choose to carry a pistol "to be prepared". How is carrying a gun, loaded with a limited number of rounds, considered being prepared for certain situations that may require a reload? Why is carrying a pistol not considered "paranoia" but carrying a reload is considered fanaticism?

[hoytinak]

So just in case there's a Hollywood shootout type situation, you are prepared with several high powered rifles in your vehicle?

I wouldn't call a .223 "high powered" but I keep a Mini-14 loaded with 5 spare mags for it in my truck at all times.

Currently wearing my tinfoil hat. :D

[Creature]

Currently wearing my tinfoil hat.

(Fact is, I dont even keep a rifle or SWAT-ninja gear in my car...:p)

[Wildalaska]

wildalaska, by his own admission, keeps a rifle in his truck.


Wildalaska lives in Alaska. Wildalaska travels outside of Anchorage, sometimes in the winter, where there isnt even a flush toilet for 75 miles or a phone for 50. Alaska is subject to severe weather and earthquakes, so he keeps some survival stuff in his truck too. His rifle is part of that survival gear.

Wildalaska doesnt keep his rifle in his truck because he is going to netrambo terrs in the shopping mall.

WildtheresyerexplanationAlaska ™

[Wildalaska]

Fact is, I dont even keep a rifle or SWAT-ninja gear in my car.

If I lived in Virginny, I wouldnt either :)

WildmanymickeydsAlaska ™

[Brian Pfleuger]

So, everyone agrees then that there is a logical limit to preparing for a SD situation.


The next question becomes "Where is that logical line drawn?"
The exact line will be different for each of us, that difference is based almost entirely on the likelihood and type of trouble in the areas we frequent. I'll go back to the odds. None of us knows exactly what those odds are, but I'll give it a shot.

Needing to draw CCW in a lifetime- 1:1000
Needing to fire the weapon- 1:10,000
Needing to fire more than 1 or 2 roounds- 1:100,000
Needing to fire more rounds than are in the smallest of typical weapons (I'll say 5)- 1:1,000,000
Needing to fire more rounds than are afforded by a single reload- 1:10,000,000

Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that these numbers are close to right. How far down that list to YOU logically need to be? I'm gonna say 3rd on the list covers my entire life span and then some. Like I said before, you all do what you want.

[JohnH1963]

I think you guys should stop focusing on carrying rifles in your cars and spare mags and simply focus on your speed and accuracy.

Look at this guy with the six shot 38 special. Wildalaska can carry as many assault rifles in his truck as he wants. The point is that he wont get within a foot of his truck if he is gunned down. All it takes is a fast draw and an accurate shot.

1 Ole Guy from Mississippi able to hit 4 targets reload and hit the 4 targets again in 3 seconds with a wheelgun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

10-15 Sheriff officers with assault weapons firing off multiple rounds and could only hit the suspect's arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ummnOoSfd54


I think we just need the ole guy from Mississippi. Thats why they always made that guy the Sheriff in all those western movies.

[Wildalaska]

Wildalaska can carry as many assault rifles in his truck as he wants.

Wildalaska doesnt want to be stuck someplace in the middle of winter after a devastating 9.0 earthquake without one :D

WilditsstashedAlaska ™

[Creature]

So, everyone agrees then that there is a logical limit to preparing for a SD situation.

No..not really. I dont.

There is no logic when it comes to a SD situation, so how can one logically prepare for that entirely singular and unique occurance? You would know this if you had ever been in one.

My point is that I am not willing to gamble my life on your one in ten million chance occurrence and have prepared for the occurrence as if it will happen today by carrying a reload.

[CWO4USCGRET]

today my off-duty carry is a RIA 1911A1 .38 Super. 9+1 in the gun and two 9 round magazines. If I'm carrying my Colt Cobra I'll carry one speed loader and one Bianchi strip for two reloads. If its the Glock 29 one spare magazine. I don't feel "right" without at least one reload.

I read a fast food shoot out report a few years ago that involved an off-duty officer who had his young daughter with him. They walked into a fast food restaurant and yes, into the middle of an armed robbery; 2 perps. He had a semi-auto with one 12 round magazine and 1 in the chamber and no reloads. In the ensuing gun battle the officer emptied his gun - without knowing if both bad actors were down. Fortunately it worked out ok - one bad guy down, a worker shot (not fatally and by a bad guy not the cop), and the 2nd perp out the door and caught a block or two away...with a loaded gun.

The off-duty officer's biggest fear was that without any more ammo there was not a thing he could do to protect his daughter (and himself) if the other bad guy came at him with a gun....

My off-duty plan is a defensive posture; shoot my way out of trouble; but if for some reason I have to defend myself and not be able to get to safety I want to make sure I have enought ammo to hold out until help arrives.

[Brian Pfleuger]

No..not really. I dont.

There is no logic when it comes to a SD situation

I didn't say the situation was logical. It is not. It can't be. Logical people don't attack other people for money or drugs or anger or fun.

I said our preparation for it has to be logical. It HAS TO BE. If it's not we'll have the scenario I outlined above with armored cars and body armor.

[gyp_c2]

...if I have to think about whether I'm armed enough to go somewhere, I just don't go...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

[Creature]

I said our preparation for it has to be logical. It HAS TO BE. If it's not we'll have the scenario I outlined above with armored cars and body armor.

Okay, then why do you say that my reasoning for choosing to carry a reload is illogical and fanatical? Have there NOT been church, mall and school shootings in the US in recent memory?

[Brian Pfleuger]

.if I have to think about whether I'm armed enough to go somewhere, I just don't go...

Yeah, that's kind of my point.

[alloy]

i got the pistol. mags at the house, mags on the desk at work, and mags in the console if i need to score on crack street.;)...otherwise i usually leave the mags in the car when i want moon pies and dog biscuits.

if i was an off duty police...maybe id have a different way of looking at percentages.

[Creature]

.if I have to think about whether I'm armed enough to go somewhere, I just don't go...
Yeah, that's kind of my point.

I'll bet that isn't what those church-goers in Colorado or the teachers at Columbine were thinking...

;)

[Brian Pfleuger]

I'll bet that isn't what those church-goers in Colorado or the teachers at Columbine were thinking...


The church situation was resolved by 1 guy who fired less than a full mag of rounds. Columbine could have easily been the same. I'm not advocating NO guns. I've advocating logic.

[Creature]

Do you keep a spare tire in your car?

[gyp_c2]

...actually, it was one woman...let's just say one shooter...
And OBTW...you can't carry anything on most school grounds here...No,
They weren't thinking OMG I shoulda' had a spare mag...
I think the point is that you have to decide for yourself what you need...
I don't need anymore weight than one mag for the places I go...YMMV...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

[Creature]

And OBTW...you can't carry anything on most school grounds here

And is that logical?

They weren't thinking OMG I shoulda' had a spare mag...

My guess is that some were. I bet that at least some VT students where wondering that very thought as well as why they aren't allowed to carry a legal CCW on campus.

But getting back to that spare tire issue...

[gyp_c2]

...and your point is?
You equate your spare tire with your carry ammo?
Look dude, do what you want...there were no guns available at Columbine. The one person that had a weapon handy at the church stopped it...No shooters cried and died because of lack of ammo...
If you wanna' climb the box about why...go for it...
We were talking about spare ammo and now you're off into disasters that it didn't apply ...have fun...
http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

[Brian Pfleuger]

And is that logical?

No. It's also irrelevant. The logic of satellite arguments does not affect the logic of the central question.

Here's what you're saying, in essence:

"Criminals are illogical, guns laws are illogical, therefore I must carry an extra magazine."

It's like saying "Dogs don't like cats therefore I must go fishing."

The logic of the situation doesn't dictate the NEEDS within that situation. The guy in those church shootings was clearly an illogical psychopath yet he was stopped with less than 1 mag worth of bullets, as are most situations.

[SilentHitz]

for carrying 2 spare mags. I don't expect to need them, but mags get dented, ect. I like having a couple extra, and if you wind up being that 1 in 1 billion that happens to need it...well better to have it already. Just part of being prepared IMO. :cool:

[Creature]

yet he was stopped with less than 1 mag worth of bullets, as are most situations.

By your statement, are you are saying that you actively and consciously choose not to be more fully prepared...because you didnt write "ALL situations"?

What I am saying, for the umpteenth time, is that when one plans for a situation, which we are doing when we choose to arm ourselves, we should plan for any as many situations as possible...and needing a reload, while more remote than actually needing a gun in the first place, is STILL a very real possibility. Do the benefits of carrying a spare mag outweigh the risks of not carrying one?

And yes, I do equate carrying a spare magazine the same as keeping a spare tire in the car. I just might need it. Not having it could potentially make a annoying situation a life threatening one.

[Brian Pfleuger]

What I am saying, for the umpteenth time,...


What I'm saying is that there has to be a limit to that preparation. Otherwise, we're all driving armored cars and wearing kevlar. Since we're not, pretty much everyone agrees with me, including you, unless you ARE driving an armored car.


On the spare tire issue? Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. I have a car that I use for drag racing that I don't keep a spare tire in, even when I drive on the street. Am I concerned that I don't have enough tires with me when I drive? No.

[Creature]

What I'm saying is that there has to be a limit to that preparation.

We got that the first time. I am waiting on why you consider carrying a spare mag beyond the limits of what you consider proper preparation.

I have a car that I use for drag racing that I don't keep a spare tire in, even when I drive on the street. Am I concerned that I don't have enough tires with me when I drive? No.

That proves nothing because you still run the risk of being stranded by the side of the road with a flat tire whether you're concerned or not.

[doh_312]

Carry one spare mag, with FMJ. Gun is loaded with JHP. Don't have a BUG, yet. Don't have anymore mags, yet. Prepare how you want, I know if I draw my weapon and fire I want as many rounds as possible with me. As soon as I get more mags I'll load another and carry it. I'll be getting a back up revolver as soon as I can afford it. Ideal carry would be my 870 with plenty of amo, but that's hard to conceal, and impractical to open carry everywhere-I don't like cops pointing guns at me, the guy with the shotgun buying groceries at the city market. Bad guys and cops prepare for how much amo they think they'll need, usually a lot is better than a little. I feel it's prudent to do the same myself. If my neighbor carries one six shooter with no reloads that doesn't bother me, I'm bothered if I don't have my spare mag on me.

[Deet]

Peetzkilla its a little hard to follow your logic, if the SHTF I would rather have Creature with his extra mags near me. That is my logic.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Peetzkilla its a little hard to follow your logic, if the SHTF...


Yep, so would I. However, I'm willing to bet that the S will not hit the F to that degree. I'm not saying that you shouldn't carry spare mags. In fact, I've said do whatever you want. What I'm also saying is that the odds of ever needing them are vanishing small. So ridiculously vanishingly small that it makes me think people that are uncomfortable not having a spare mag are a bit paranoid. It's really simple. Carry your spare mags. Really, I don't care but if you go to dinner with your wife and find yourself thinking "Damn, I forgot my extra mag...damn, damn, damn I hope I don't need it." Well, then you might be a little paranoid.

I'm also trying to explain that we are all drawing a line in the sand somewhere. Some people think that simply carrying a gun is crazy. Some people think carrying a spare mag is unnecessary. Some people want to wear kevlar to go to the grocery store. SOMEWHERE before the kevlar vest (in America anyway) logic ends and paranoia begins. Now, I don't necessarily think a spare mag is paranoid but it crosses cleanly into the "I'll likely never ever need it in 3 lifetimes" category.

[golfnutrlv]

I carry one extra 17 round mag for my Glock 26. I also have 10+1 in the weapon.

I carry Federal Tactical HST HP.

[orionengnr]

The odds of my needing the first bullet in my CCW are probably .001%, the odds of needing the last one in the magazine are probably .000001%.
You need some more math. To wit: Statiscal Probability
While only one in one million may need that last round, that does not mean it won't be you.

As someone once said, it's not the odds, it's the stakes.

And yeah, it's your choice. Please choose wisely. :rolleyes:

[rantingredneck]

Typically one reload for whatever I'm carrying.

In my truck there is a P97 in a floor safe. There's often also an 870 in a locked case.

My truck door pockets are full of shotgun shells leftover from various hunts in the last year or so. I could hunt anything from doves to deer with whatever I find in there.

My truck console also tends to catch the spare mags and or speedstrips/speedloaders that I cast off in my daily travels.

My truck is well armed typically......:D.

[Wagonman]

My .02:

If you carry a gun you should carry a reload for the same reason as you should carry magazines topped off-----Why wouldn't you? I agree you can take this to the nth degree and my perspective is skewed by being a cop and having a different outlook than a CCW holder. I "look" for trouble always and if I should find it I will handle it, even off-duty, although the ROE change.

Carry what you want. YMMV

[mavracer]

for the record I usually carry 1 reload and my truck has a spare tire but the Bronco dosen't.

[Croz]

Sorry, temporary thread diversion but...

1 Ole Guy from Mississippi able to hit 4 targets reload and hit the 4 targets again in 3 seconds with a wheelgun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og9ccsb1v6o

HOLY CRAP! It's like he's using a machine gun pistol. 6 rounds on target in 1 second.

[troy_mclure]

i dont carry a spare mag on me, but theres a 12rd of jhp in the truck.

[Creature]

it's not the odds, it's the stakes.

That right there sums up the whole argument about carrying a gun....and carrying a reload.

[Superhouse 15]

I carry Hydra Shok or Gold Saber in my primary CCWs and carry a spare magazine of Gold Dots. If it comes to the reload, I want a bonded bullet to penetrate more in case I need it. I typically carry a BUG, Kel Tec P32, with Cor Bon and no spares unless it's my primary for some reason. In that case I'll add a 10 Round KT mag of Cor Bon.

[David Armstrong]

For CCW I'll usually just carry whatever is in the gun, and use all the same ammo, no mix. I don't worry too much about getting attacked by a tiger, so I don't carry around a .416 Rigby. The chance of needing the spare mag is less than getting attacked by a tiger, so I don't carry around one of those either. It is not a big deal either way, IMO. Carry one if it makes you feel good, don't worry about it if it is a hassle. Either way works out.

[tshadow6]

The Police Officer that stopped the Utah mall shooter was carrying a .45 pistol downloaded to six rounds. I believe he fired at least 2 rounds at the bad guy. Since he did not have any spare magazines, he started to worry about stopping the bad guy. During a post incident interview with "Law Enforcement" magazine, he stated every one should carry spare ammo. I carry one spare magazine. When I'm on an overnight trip, several spare mags along with an extra weapon. Call me paranoid, but when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

[Creature]

It is not a big deal either way, IMO.

Then you too are missing the whole point of the discussion.

[litework]

I carry as many spare magazines as I can, loaded with the same ammunition. What I wear to the local grocery store is vastly different than what I wear when I'm walking or hiking inside and outside of my small town.

[Ruthless4christ]

two mags. i feel it should get me to my truck to my long gun.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I don't worry too much about getting attacked by a tiger

Dave, long before that tiger jumped out of the cage and ate up those jerks who taunted it, a friend of mine was (is) a comparative psychologist and zoo consultant - expert on big cats. She was examining a zoo pit and it had a moat of X feet. She looked at it and said tigers can leap x + y feat and said out of there!

Thus, tiger attacks happen. She also consulted on a cheetah in a game park that leaped through a partially opened back window grabbed a toddler and zapped off. Remember the gorilla that got out?

So big cat attacks happen!! I would be prepared for such. Of course, having the rifle in the truck - so what. :D

Anyway - The probability/stat game is misunderstood. The naive use of stats indicated that most of us will never needa loaded gun on an 'average' day. So let's fold up our tents.

Most model their actions on the 'single BG/mugger incident'. No shots fired or just a few and the BG is removed as a threat thru fleeing or being hurt. If Kleck is correct (debated in the literature) then there are lots of DGUs - most with no shots fired.

However, there are a few extremes of high intense gun fights where a CCW type might be involved. A "Black Swan" incident so to speak - so do you prepare for them? A mall, a school rampage, etc.

The Tyler courthouse and Tacoma mall didn't go well for the good samaritarians - unfortunately due to them having a gun and not being tactically sensible (so is training more important than the gun capacity?). The Colorado church ended well but the shooter was a trained ex-LEO and the BG actually killed himself when wounded - probably his plan all along.

Thus, this is a never ending argument. Most DGUs can end with the capacity of the gun - the vast majority of property crimes or sexual assaults. If you do hit a rampage (there have been only 14 college rampages) - then you might need more ammo. It's not hard to carry an extra mag - so it is little cost for a rare event.

To opine - if you are worrying about the gun equipment issue and you haven't had a modicum of trainig - then your priorities are a touch off, if you are worried about the rampage. For the single mugger - taking out the gun and waving around seems to work for most.

PS - I forgot to opine about this alternating of FMJ and JHP or carrying a mag of each. I do not know of an incident where a civilian had to worry about failure of penetration by JHP and then would have been saved by FMJ. If the BG had body armor - FMJ doesn't do it. The known risk of overpenetration is more than that of having to shoot the rampager through something that JHP wouldn't work for.

[David Armstrong]

Then you too are missing the whole point of the discussion.
If the discussion is if there is a real need to carry a spare mag, it seems I'm right on track. Again, it is not a big deal either way. If one wants to carry a spare, fine, it makes you feel good and that is a good thing. If one does not want to carry a spare mag, fine, you're probably not going to need it and that is a good thing.

[David Armstrong]

Thus, tiger attacks happen. She also consulted on a cheetah in a game park that leaped through a partially opened back window grabbed a toddler and zapped off. Remember the gorilla that got out?
So big cat attacks happen!! I would be prepared for such.
That's my point, Glenn. There are actual things that happen, but we don't even consider them and most people would think it rather unusual if one did worry about and plan for a tiger attack. Yet AFAIK more people have been killed/injured by big cat attacks in the U.S. than have been killed/injured because they did not have a spare magazine with them.
Anyway - The probability/stat game is misunderstood.
I don't think anyone argues that more than I do!:D
It's not hard to carry an extra mag - so it is little cost for a rare event.
Agreed. Little cost, but also little benefit. Of course, then there is the issue of who is better equipped, the CCW with a 7-round gun and a spare mag or the CCW with a 17-round gun and no spare mag.:confused:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Hey, I didn't know that a gun carrier had to know addition.

To be mildly serious, one argument for the extra mag is that your primary mag can go belly up. Esp. - if you carry the ultimate man stopping 1911! But I did have a Glock 27 mag fail in a match once. :(

And my cheap AR-15 mag has bellied up! Oh, wait - I didn't carry that to the mall.

I think I will go survey my dried food for the meteor strike.

[skeeter1]

"Usually, no spare mags until special circumstances."

Same here. I've got 6 mags for one, and 4 for another, but for the most part, I carry a revolver for HD. Don't get me wrong, I really like semi-auto pistols, but I'd rather put my faith in revolvers. I'm old-school, I guess.

[Brian Pfleuger]

it's not the odds, it's the stakes.

It's both. We all make provision for smaller and smaller odds as the stakes go higher and higher. You're still playing the odds. Otherwise, you'd be working to meteor proof your house because it's the stakes not the odds.

To borrow a phrase;), I'll say it for the umpteenth time, you have to draw the line somewhere or you'll be driving around in armor cars and wearing kevlar. If you want to draw the line at an extra mag, go ahead. If your line is an extra mag and a bug, fine. My line is a single gun loaded with 10 Gold Dot .357 Sig, no reload. There hasn't been an armed robbery within 30 miles of my house this year. Maybe that's why my line is "lower", although I still think I'd be more than adequately equipped anywhere that a law abiding citizen has need to be.

[curt.45]

I carry 2 spare mags for my Ruger P90, it helps balance my weight.

[luvsasmith]

just one spare. sometimes a 2nd with FMJ. The other 2 have Federal Hydrashoks.

[Nnobby45]

The odds of my needing the first bullet in my CCW are probably .001%, the odds of needing the last one in the magazine are probably .000001%.



Odds according to who? You?

For ordinary people who get murdered everyday, the odds were very much in favor of it not happening to them.

Clint Smith points out that some times Wolves travel in packs. Not that he needs to.

What ever the odds, it's a 100% certainly that I'll have better piece of mind carrying two spare mags for my P220.
Too bad Reginald Denny didn't have a pistol with a couple spare mags.:cool:

[dabigguns357]

I started carrying not only the hi-cap mag in my .40 but also 2 extra mags in a mag holster.I didn't do this till my city went to heck and there were 5 shooting in less than 4 days with 5 blocks of where i live.
Yep i have found a house farther up the river and will be moved in by the middle of feb.Untill then i'm packin all i can,even my wife is packin now.So between the 2 of us we now have 46 rounds of max firepower,34 .40 cal rounds for me and 12 .357 rounds for her.:eek:

[Kline605]

I never use to carry a spare magazine until I sat through the a briefing on the Von Maur and Trolley Square Mall shootings. Now I carry at least one, two if I'm wearing a jacket.

[marine0341]

I have skunks and sardines in my truck, it keeps the BG away

[3 gun]

Just one unless I'll be in the middle of nowhere then I'll add a couple to the belt.

[BuckHammer]

Do you keep a spare tire in your car?
How many spare tires do you keep in your car?

I will use my civilian piece to fight my way to the M1A in the truck.
If I can get to my truck, I'm probably just going to leave if the situation is so bad as to require an M1A. Unless I can't get out, in which case the M1A is a good idea. I only don't carry a rifle in my truck at all times because I would constantly worry about theft and concealing it within the truck.

Needing to draw CCW in a lifetime- 1:1000
Needing to fire the weapon- 1:10,000
Needing to fire more than 1 or 2 roounds- 1:100,000
Needing to fire more rounds than are in the smallest of typical weapons (I'll say 5)- 1:1,000,000
Needing to fire more rounds than are afforded by a single reload- 1:10,000,000
Those numbers are going to be different for every single member of this forum. Therefore, I consider your estimate irrelevant to everyone but yourself.

Back to the OP, when my paperwork finally goes through, I plan to only carry what the gun's magazine will hold. That's because I can't imagine a shootout going down in Evansville, Indiana. Therefore, I don't feel the need to prepare for one. The only scenarios I have ever come across (the ones that almost happened, I mean) where I would have needed a spare mag, I wouldn't have had time to reload, anyway.

In summary, to me, the primary logic in limiting your preparedness for anything is what you are willing to tolerate. "Am I willing to tolerate the extra weight and bulk of those spare mags?" "Do I want to take up all that bed space for four spare tires?" "Should I wear a jacket? It might get cold." Logic applies to all preparations. Logic is leading you to prepare, and the same logic leads you to the limitations on the preparations. Not only does this apply to carrying a concealed weapon, it applies to almost everything you do. The logic for each person is different, and that's fine. What you do and how you rationalize it is your business. Like many people often say about many things, "There is no wrong answer." Every person is different, and you must find what is right for yourself.

[jughead2]

i am with Curt.45. p12-45 2 mags balances the weight with shoulder holster.

[Nnobby45]

Just one unless I'll be in the middle of nowhere then I'll add a couple to the belt.


Why would being "in the middle of nowhere" make you less safe than in a people rich environment? Seems like adding "a couple to the belt" makes good sense either way.

Of course, the definition of "nowhere" can vary a lot from one from one person to the next. I travel alone in the wide open spaces of Nevada, and am well armed. Not sure I'm any safer in town.

[22lr]

I just carry my gun loaded with the one mag in the well. Way I see it is that if I cant take out at least 4 guys with 15 rounds of JHP 9mm then I have no business carrying a gun. And the chances that im going to face anything over 1 or 2 is just astronomical. But I keep an extra mag in the glove box, just in case.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Those numbers are going to be different for every single member of this forum. Therefore, I consider your estimate irrelevant to everyone but yourself.

So then, what ARE the odds? For how small a probability do we prepare?
I do have some numbers provided by a person who teaches and examines these things for a living. They were provided to me in a private conversation, as such I'll not post them here without permission. That person is more than capable of providing that information to this thread if he so desires. The point being that there ARE facts and figures indicating how many rounds are needed in REAL SD situations. Some people either choose not to look, choose to ignore people who actually know or choose to believe and do what they want regardless.

[chrisbarcelo]

One extra mag in your pocket is enough my friend if that gives you a peace of mind but i doubt if you can use it though. In gun plays with one adversary to neutralize three rounds to six at most is all you need. Besides, it will be over in thirty seconds at most, unless your fond of watching this Hollywood movies (no offense, im just sharing my experience with you in the Philippine Marines).

[ckd]

One spare magazine, mostly in the rare case of magazine failure, since the probability of a civilian needing more rounds is unlikely. Some advocate ball ammo for penetration through cover if things get that far. Some carry a spare magazine or two in the car if far away from help.

[gyp_c2]

...I can't believe this is still going...
Of course you can carry as many mags as you want...I can tell you in courses I carry as many as possible...If I was going into a fight for sure, same thing...On the way to work...nope...
I do have more mags in my vehicles......I do have more mags around the house...and by far and away, if I could get away with it, I'd carry an AR...everywhere...
I don't go where I once did...
I do practice reloads, failure drills, and try to maintain some sort of practice schedule...
I do have everything I can think of on my side, as often as is humanly possible...and ok...
I do like the balance of one extra mag on the off-side!
What I like even better is a flashlight...If you don't, and don't have any means of indexing your firearm in low-light, well that...is silly... and extra ammo won't help because holes are what stops fights...accurate, well-placed, blood-gushing, h-o-l-e-s...So yes...take the kitchen sink if it makes you better!
There is nothing wrong with carrying everything if you practice with it...
If you don't, well that's pretty silly too...IMHO and YMMV...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif

[quinn2187]

if a guy wants to carry just whats in his gun then let him, i bet good money he will never use any of them in his lifetime let alone one.

if a guy wants to carry 17 extra mags then let him. its his comfort level.

i just want to know how many of you WELL armed people are counting on self defense as in defending your life, and how many of you seen to many john wayne movies and are looking to be a hero, looking to get involved just because you are armed.

[Creature]

Originally Posted by Creature
Do you keep a spare tire in your car?
How many spare tires do you keep in your car?

I keep a spare tire in all of my vehicles. Just in case I might need it. Much like I carry a spare magazine....just in case.

Thanks for asking.

i just want to know how many of you WELL armed people are counting on self defense as in defending your life, and how many of you seen to many john wayne movies and are looking to be a hero, looking to get involved just because you are armed.

Just because I carry a spare mag doesnt mean I want to be a John Wayne. I carry a spare mag because I believe it to be prudent to do so. Nor does carrying a spare mag make one "WELL armed" as you put it. "Well armed" is sitting behind a tomahawk console in a CIC on a ship 800 nautical miles out to sea.

[orionengnr]

One.

[Crankylove]

Sometimes I carry one spare, sometimes just the mag in the gun. I haven't felt the need for a back up gun, or another weapon in the vehicle, yet. But, times, they are a changin.

[exprt9]

Most of the time, I carry a spare for my EDC and the BUG. If going to a bad part of town, I carry two spares for my EDC and a spare for the bug. Paranoia? Not really...just being prepared for the just in case. :)

[Creature]

So then, what ARE the odds? For how small a probability do we prepare?

Again, its not the probability that we are preparing for, its for what is at stake that we choose to carry a gun. Yes, the chance is small that a gun is needed in the first place, but the consequences for not carrying a gun are HUGE. Far more than what I am willing to gamble on. I carry gun as insurance. I carry a spare mag as extra insurance.

I do have some numbers provided by a person who teaches and examines these things for a living. They were provided to me in a private conversation, as such I'll not post them here without permission. That person is more than capable of providing that information to this thread if he so desires.

Well the bring that person in to the loop. I am sure it will be enlightening.

Have you considered though that perhaps that person, with his or her intimate knowledge of "the facts" may not agree with your position? This person probably gets that while lightning rarely strikes, it still take lives every year. And that many times, the death it inflicts could have been easily prevented with a modicum of forethought?

The point being that there ARE facts and figures indicating how many rounds are needed in REAL SD situations.

Those facts are moot when you planned for something and then you come up short when ol' Murphy strikes.

[strat81]

Generally, I'll carry one extra magazine or one speedloader with me.

Extra ammo is nice to have, but the extra magazine is primarily due to the chance of malfunction.

[Kreyzhorse]

I usually carry one spare mag with my semi-autos. I usually stager the spare mag with hollow points and FMJs.

If I carry my snubnose, I usually carry a speed strip or dump pouch with one reload. The reloads are FMJs.

[buzz_knox]

If you have the need to draw your firearm in self-defense, you are in what is clearly an exceedingly rare statistical event. If you have to actually discharge the firearm, you are in an even rarer situation. Plan accordingly.

If you want to plan based solely on statistics, there is no reason to have ammunition or a firearm.

[Creature]

Your whole statement hit the nail right on the head, buzz knox...

[buzz_knox]

Your whole statement hit the nail right on the head, buzz knox...


I've refined it over the 101 threads that have occured this year alone on this issue.

Carry what you want. If it works out for you, great. If it doesn't, we can learn from your mistakes (assuming that either you survive to recount your tale or the authorities locate the body and can reconstruct the situation).

Before you ridicule or otherwise denigrate someone for carrying something that you don't, take a minute and figure out why they are doing so. In the last couple days, I drove by the likely location of one of the most notorious carjackings in recent memory just this weekend. I'm currently a brisk walk away from the scene where it ended in the torture and murder of two innocent people. The five two-legged fungi who perpertrated that crime were prison hardened and large than me. Events like that are rare, but the consequences are absolutely disastrous. Should I follow the statistics and not carry a weapon? Should I "prepare" for the unlikely event and carry a 5 shot revolver, knowing that the unlikely could involve multiple armed attackers and the 5 shots will likely not do that well in the stress of the situation? Should I carry matching Glock 17s with 26 backups? Or should I find a happy medium between unarmed and "excessivley" armed? That's up to me. I know from experience that asking the question on the internet will lead to about 10% real discussion and 90% derision from both sides, including those with agendas.

[The Great Mahoo]

One of the best reasons to carry a reload, atleast for an auto, is to clear jams or malfunctions. I see this as a better reason than for the extra ammo, but I am confident I can depend on the 5 or 6 rounds in my carry guns.

I do sometimes carry a reload, but its rare. What dictates whethere I do? Generally how I am dressed, not where I am going. I do have more ammo in my car, but that is only because I see no harm in it, and an extremely-unlikely chance it could help. It just stays there, getting swapped with fresh rounds every now and then, if I ever need it. Its not any inconvenience.

As far as preparing for the unexpected, which we've touched on here, I keep it simple. I have my hiking pack stored in my closet, still stuffed with anything I may want to have. All I have to do is grab it, fill some fresh water, prefferably some food, and head out with anything I may need to get by. Well, with the bag and my trusty side-arm, of course.:D

[David Armstrong]

Should I follow the statistics and not carry a weapon?
There is the problem, IMO. Should one try to find out what the facts are and then make a decision, or try to make a decision based on no facts? There actually is a fairly good lifetime likelihood of being in a DGU situation, just how good depending on which set of numbers you want to trust and how you want to define a DGU. Using Kleck, for example, the lifetime probability is about 1 in 200. Then it starts getting into wilder numbers. Actually needing to shoot the gun is about 2% of 1 in 200. That not working and the BG presses on his attack and you need to shoot him goes to about a 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Multiple shots being needed tosses it down to maybe 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Needing to reload then is about 2% of the 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. So while the need for a firearm is not to unreasonable, most everything after that basic concept gets to be really rare or it can get more common based on you and your lifestyle. Understanding that, and how the odds affect YOUR lifestyle specifically, can help one accurately determine what they need and how much they need it.
Or should I find a happy medium between unarmed and "excessivley" armed? That's up to me.
Exactly, and there is nothing wrong with being excessively armed if that is what you want. As you so aptly put it, "That's up to me." But finding the happy medium is best done by knowing what the facts are as they relate to you instead of just guessing based on nothing other than the 6:00 news. The problem comes, as in so many other internet discussions, when it becomes "if you don't do like I do obviously you can't survive/win/whatever and you you might as well not even consider defending yourself because you are not serious about it" or similar nonsense. My $.02.

[buzz_knox]

The problem comes, as in so many other internet discussions, when it becomes "if you don't do like I do obviously you can't survive/win/whatever and you you might as well not even consider defending yourself because you are not serious about it" or similar nonsense. My $.02.

Every such statement is matched by one on the other side along the lines of "if you can't do it in 5 you shouldn't be armed," "you are a rambo wannabe," "you're not a cop so carrying a spare mag is foolish," or "the odds of that happening are so rare that you are being ridiculous."

The happy middle ground is lost on both sides of this debate.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Needing to reload then is about 2% of the 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200.


I'll save every one else the math... if I do it right.;)

That means a reload is necessary in 36 out of every 10,000,000,000 cases.

I believe I saw an estimate that there are 700,000 instances of firearms used in SD annually (fired or not). If both those numbers are correct, it would be an average of 396 years before ANY of those 700,000 individuals would need a reload in a SD situation. In other words, the odds that YOU will need a reload in your own personal case are 700,000 times less likely than 1:396 years.

The happy middle ground is lost on both sides of this debate.

You're right about the ridiculous put-downs but the "middle ground" issue is different. That is partly the nature of debate. Middle ground is for compromises, not debates. If we all came into this thread with out a position to defend, where would this thread go?

Most of us have stated, more than once, that those we disagree with should do what they want to do.

[Brian Pfleuger]

delete

[buzz_knox]

I believe I saw an estimate that there are 700,000 instances of firearms used in SD annually (fired or not). If both those numbers are correct, it would be an average of 396 years before any individual would need a reload in a SD situation.


Basing decisions on such statistical conclusions is what leads people to build homes in 100 year flood zones. They rely on the fact that such a flood has already happened to establish that there home is safe for the foreseeable future. They get shocked when they get flooded out, and even more shocked when it happens again.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I've been hit by lightning. That's a rare event. A friend of mine lived through a DC-8 crash that killed quite a few. So when we went to a lecture where the dude said, it's as rare as being hit by lightning or being in a plane crash - we both laughed to ourselves.

Carry a gun and one reload. That's the reasonable middle ground. Now go drink Eggnog (Nod to Capt. Charlie). :D

[buzz_knox]

I've been hit by lightning. That's a rare event. A friend of mine lived through a DC-8 crash that killed quite a few. So when we went to a lecture where the dude said, it's as rare as being hit by lightning or being in a plane crash - we both laughed to ourselves.


I'm going to have to call BS on that one. The odds of two individuals not only having gone through such rare events, but being friends and being in a lecture where such a comment was made are so statistically low as to be impossible. Thus, the event could never have occurred. ;)

[Brian Pfleuger]

I've been hit by lightning. That's a rare event. A friend of mine lived through a DC-8 crash that killed quite a few.

Both are far more likely than needing a reload. Now, if you were surfing and got hit by lightning, then bit by a shark before you were rescued, then the ambulance that picked you up was involved in an accident causing you to be air-lifted, resulting in a fatal helicopter crash, you'd probably be in the same statistical neighborhood.

Point being, there's a BIG difference between rare and virtually unheard of.

Someone will say, again, that it's not the odds, it's the stakes. So, I'll head that of by saying, again, that it is BOTH the odds and the stakes. The odds of a meteor landing on your house are 182,138,880,000,000 to 1. Since that number is only 180 times less likely than needing a reload, you'd better be ready. A meteor strike is an almost certain fatal event. You'd better live a couple miles under ground, unless of course you're willing to play the odds instead of the stakes.

[TuppyFinn]

By David Armstrong:
There actually is a fairly good lifetime likelihood of being in a DGU situation, just how good depending on which set of numbers you want to trust and how you want to define a DGU. Using Kleck, for example, the lifetime probability is about 1 in 200.

What does DGU mean? I thought Dr Kleck estimates that handguns are presented, but not actually fired, about 2,000,000 times a year to prevent crime. If you figure the adult population of the US is about 250,000,000 (just a guess) then the odds of needing a handgun to prevent a crime are about 1 in 125. And that's just one year. Over a lifetime it would seem that the odds of needing a handgun would be fairly substantial. What am I missing here?

Thanks,
TF

[mavracer]

not sure about this odds thing.But I know for sure I carry a extra mag to a ripe old age and never need it cool.If I need a extra mag and don't have one I'm not gonna make a ripe old age.
besides I might need to shoot something tomorrow,if I do I'll still have a full gun on the way home.

[Nnobby45]

Hope I'm not being too philosophical, but it seems some are willing to prepare themselves to a degree equal to the likelyhood it will happen. A deadly force situation, that is.

Doesn't sound like a wise practice since the odds are that the severity of the attack we face will be the same regardless of those odds.:cool:

Would you prepare for an earthquake or flood using that philosophy?

[Recon7]

What does DGU mean?

If you have to ask you are not prepared.

When the Delta Golf Uniform happens You will all come crying to me for help :D

[Whirlwind06]

DGU = Defensive Gun Use

[rampage841512]

Two, same stuff in them as in the gun.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Would you prepare for an earthquake or flood using that philosophy?

Yes. The house where I grew up was 100 feet or more higher than flood stage so we did not have flood insurance. There hasn't been a major earthquake in my area in recorded history, hence, I have not earthquake plan.

Let's say it again. It's not the stakes OR the odds. It's both. Do you get on airplanes? Do you go surfing? Hunting? Ride in a car? All these things are more likely to kill you than not having a reload for your CCW. Odds are if anything kills you, besides natural death, it will be a car accident. We still ride around in cars. If it was "the stakes not the odds" we'd never sit in a car.


Doesn't sound like a wise practice since the odds are that the severity of the attack we face will be the same regardless of those odds.

Actually, the odds we're talking about are the odds of an attack severe enough to require a reload, not just any attack. If you happen to be the victim of such an attack the odds are obviously irrelevant but if you are involved in a SD incident the odds are VERY, VERY high that you will not need that reload.

[mavracer]

If you happen to be the victim of such an attack the odds are obviously irrelevant but if you are involved in a SD incident the odds are VERY, VERY high that you will not need that reload.
since you seam to strictly play the odds. once the SD situation happens the odds are better that you'll need a reload than the odds needing the gun for SD were.
By your reasoning I should just carry a reload and no gun.

[Brian Pfleuger]

since you seam to strictly play the odds. once the SD situation happens the odds are better that you'll need a reload than the odds needing the gun for SD were.

No, they're not.


Ok, one more time It's not just the odds or the stakes. IT'S BOTH!

The stakes are very high. The odds are high ENOUGH to justify my CCW. The odds of needing a reload are NOWHERE NEAR high enough to justify my carrying a reload.


By your reasoning I should just carry a reload and no gun.

That's just, well, I don't know what that is....:rolleyes:

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ok, Buzz - you made me laugh. I got touch by the divine walking across a parking lot in Buffalo carrying a box of IBM cards to the computer center across a large flat parking lot during a thunderstorm and carrying an umbrella high (good plan). Big flash and simultaneous boom and the electrons came from the umbrella into my noggin. Hit me in the nose piece of my hippy granny glasses (this was the 60's). Ouch.

My buddy was in a DC-8 that ran out of gas on the way to the Portland Airport and crashed. The front of the plane had its passengers killed. The scary thing was that the stewardesses wanted to move all the kids to the front. My friend kept his baby with him and his wife in the back and they made it.

The coincidence of being together was that we were both psych folks. Then, it was a statistics seminar and that's why the speaker was talking about odds.

Years later, I took my daughter to Buffalo and showed her the site of the hit. Then a few years after that, our Buffalo relatives came to TX to visit. We took them out for BBQ and guess what a hellacious thunderstorm broke out while we were having ribs. We got to the parking lot and saw a long flat run to car as the lightning flashed. My kid and I looked at each other and said - NO, sir! and we waited for it to pass.

So I carry an extra mag. :D

[mavracer]

The stakes are very high. The odds are high ENOUGH to justify my CCW. The odds of needing a reload are NOWHERE NEAR high enough to justify my carrying a reload.
the problem is this is your opinion, your trying to prove it's a fact.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN

[Nnobby45]

Actually, the odds we're talking about are the odds of an attack severe enough to require a reload, not just any attack...

Well, thanks, but I know what the subject matter is.

Carrying a gun when the odds are against using it, but not having a quick reload because the odds are even more against needing one, is a tactical philosophy born of a mind wired up differently than mine, as well as being against most training philosophy.

However, I fully acknowledge the right of any one to stand there with an empty (or at least, not fully charged) pistol after the shooting stops while waiting for the police, who could, depending on circumstances, be a while in coming---while you're wondering where Bubba's buddy is at (if you even knew he had one).

[Sixer]

I think the correct answer for this question is - There is no CORRECT answer.

It's hard to argue that 1 mag is better than 2, 2 better than 3, 3 better than 4, etc.

I think it all depends on what YOU feel comfortable with.

Should I only carry the gun with the highest mag capacity possible?
Am I at more risk when carrying my 8rd Sig than I am with a 15rd G19?
If so, then why would ANYONE carry an 8rd Sig to begin with?
Why dont we all carry hi cap pistols?

I dont have the answer, but I personally feel just fine with one mag for everyday carry...

[David Armstrong]

What does DGU mean?
DGU means Defensive Gun Use and it means whatever the person using the term wants it to mean, as there is no formal or technical definition. Kleck (and I'm paraphrasing very broadly here) uses it to indicate any time a person believes the reference to, display of, acual shooting of, or threat to use a firearm helped them in a threatening situation.

[David Armstrong]

Would you prepare for an earthquake or flood using that philosophy?
Yes. There are different levels of severity (threat) to worry about. I do not prepare for an earthquake where I live. The odds of it happening are so remote that it just does not enter my thoughts. When I lived in California, on the other hand, preparations for an earthquake made sense even though the chance of needing the preparations was pretty slim.
When I was in Oklahoma I did not prepare for or worry about a flood. We lived on a very high elevation. Where I am now a flood is a rare but distinct possibility, so I took out a small flood insurance policy to help me repair should the rare event occur. Proper understanding of risks allows me to prepare properly. Again, that doesn't mean you shouldn't have an earthquake kit if yo want one, or tha tyou shouldn't buy flood insurance if you live on the top of a mountain if that is what you want.

[Nnobby45]

Quote:
Would you prepare for an earthquake or flood using that philosophy?

Yes. There are different levels of severity (threat) to worry about. I do not prepare for an earthquake where I live. The odds of it happening are so remote that it just does not enter my thoughts.......

Well, it would enter your thoughts if the chance of an earthquake were has high as needing a gun. You carry a gun don't you?

Most of us have some supplies at home that would help us survive some sort of traumatic event over a period of time-- and that includes ammo. In the event an event happens when we aren't at home (or even in our vehicle), it could be instrumental to our survival that we have extra ammo on our persons, also.

The wisdom in having extra ammo isn't limited to needing a reload in one gunfight. Some people we've heard from on this thread don't carry enough ammo to reload their pistol afterwards.

I guess now we can hear about the overwhelming odds that the police will be there forthwith and make reloading unnecessary.

[David Armstrong]

Well, it would enter your thoughts if the chance of an earthquake were has high as needing a gun. You carry a gun don't you?
But it is not as high as needing a gun. Again, needing a gun is not an improbable event over a lifetime. But the improbability goes up rapidly after that. Even if you use big numbers, like a 10% factor, it gets pretty rare pretty fast. 10% chance you will need a gun, 10% chance you will need to shoot the BG, 10% chance you will need to use multiple rounds, and 10% you will then actually need the spare ammo for something. We're at one-ten thousandths already. That is what same don't seem to see, how quickly a percentage of a percentage of a percentage creates astronomical odds. One can prepare for astronomical odds if they wish, it is not that big a deal, but to try to suggest it is very important is pretty questionable.
In the event an event happens when we aren't at home (or even in our vehicle), it could be instrumental to our survival that we have extra ammo on our persons, also.
Could be. First we have to have an event like that, then we have to have another event that requires shooting the gun, then we need another event to require needing to have the gun reloaded. And that is fine if that worries you.
The wisdom in having extra ammo isn't limited to needing a reload in one gunfight. Some people we've heard from on this thread don't carry enough ammo to reload their pistol afterwards.
Again, what is the likelihood of that mattering? Equally important, is the issue having a reload or having enough ammo? In other words, who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?

[Brian Pfleuger]

the problem is this is your opinion, your trying to prove it's a fact.
NOT GONNA HAPPEN


The decision to carry a reload is also opinion and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.

Now, having said that, all opinions are not created equal. My opinion is not fact but it most certainly is based on historical fact and statistical data. The opinion to carry a reload is based either on just plain wanting to or intentionally ignoring the facts and believing it is justifiable statistically. If you just plain want to, fine go ahead. If you want to ignore the facts or pretend they're not real or believe that you might be that 1 in 80 billion, then that's fine to, go ahead and carry that reload. As for convincing me:

NOT GONNA HAPPEN

[au1776]

No spare. I'm more prepared than most by carrying a pistol and being proficient with it. I'm less prepared than people who carry an extra mag. I'm much less prepared than people who carry an extra mag, a backup, an HK416, 4 flashlights and 60m of rope.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...

[csmsss]

I carry with four magazines. One reason is that the weight of the magazines helps offset the weight of the pistol. The other reason is....why not? I don't understand the necessity of all of this statistical analysis to rationalize how many (if any) spare magazines one should carry. Bottom line is that if I'm in a situation where I need to draw and fire my carry pistol, I want as many rounds on tap as I can comfortably carry around with me. For me, that is four mags.

[mavracer]

The decision to carry a reload is also opinion and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.
yes, you stated your opinion in post 15.since then you have made 15 post trying to prove your right.
the one thing you can't change is the fact that the possibility exists sombody may need a reload or a BUG.If you have it and don't need it no big deal but, if you need it and don't have it your screwed.
I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your life but how will you feel if you get sombody killed because they listen to your opinion.

[Nnobby45]

Again, what is the likelihood of that mattering?

Same likelyhood as for the people for whom it has already mattered, and for those it will in the future.:cool:.

You know, David, I really wonder if you're telling us with a straight face, that after a SD shooting, not being able to reload your pistol is an acceptable tactical philosophy just because it's unlikely you'll need to.

With that kind of odds making, one would load their revolver with 3 rds. and figure to have 1.5 rds. more than they need.

[Brian Pfleuger]

since then you have made 15 post trying to prove your right.

Um, and a fair number of others have done the same trying to prove I'm wrong, including yourself. Isn't that what a discussion is? That's why this thread is 6 pages long, yes? I'm not talking to myself. Geesh.:rolleyes:


how will you feel if you get sombody killed because they listen to your opinion.

Ok, can you (anyone) provide an example of a civilian killed in a SD situation specifically because they didn't have a reload?

[Whirlwind06]

retracted :)

[David Armstrong]

Same likelyhood as for the people for whom it has already mattered, and for those it will in the future.
OK, I'm always open to some facts. If you have any indicating the need for a reload making a difference in the outcome of a non-LE or military SD CCW encounter I'm open to looking at them. Again, you have not answered the question of if the issue is one of having a reload or having plenty of ammo. Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?
You know, David, I really wonder if you're telling us with a straight face, that after a SD shooting, not being able to reload your pistol is an acceptable tactical philosophy just because it's unlikely you'll need to.

I wasn't and haven't been discussing any type of tactical philosophy, I've been discussing actual necessity and likelihood of events. Very different animals there. Perhaps you could share with us an actual example of a non-LE or military SD shooting where, after the shooting was done, you then needed to have your gun reloaded to engage another BG? I've researched over 10,000 shootings to one degree or another and I have never run across a single incident like that.
With that kind of odds making, one would load their revolver with 3 rds. and figure to have 1.5 rds. more than they need.
If I load anything other than a single-shot I figure it will have more rounds than I will need. But the cost of having those rounds available is minimal so it is not a big deal, just as having a reload isn't a big deal.

I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...
Yep, pretty obvious, isn't it.

[protectedbyglock]

I have not had to fire in defense (thank god). Unless you count that ****** off groundhog that one time....
Oh, and that deer I snuck up on. That wasn't too funny. I didn't know deer would run at you like that! I didn't even have a gun on me...just snuck up on her from behind a building and jumped out and yelled "Boo!" Bet she got a good laugh out of that one.
Oh, back on subject.....
I like to carry 7 reloads. Two in a double mag pouch. One on each calf, one in each back pocket (those ones hurt sometimes), and one taped just under my private parts where no bad guy will ever find it.
Grand total of 105 rounds of .45ACP with one in the hole. Without one chambered, though, that's only 104 rounds. Too light for me. Just don't feel comfortable... :rolleyes:

[Creature]

Peetzakiller wrote: My opinion is not fact but it most certainly is based on .

I am still waiting to hear your historical fact and statistical data. And not just those made up numbers you keep trying to advance as fact. And what about your so called expert...where is this person? At least share what this person has shared with you...I am sure he/she wont mind.

[Brian Pfleuger]

I am still waiting to hear your historical fact and statistical data.


I am awaiting the data supporting your opinion. The data supporting my opinion was, largely, supplied by Mr. Armstrong a couple of pages ago. No one questioned those numbers at the time. So far, the only reason any one has given for carrying a reload is essentially "I think I might need it." Where is the data to support that assertion? The closest any reload proponent has come to data is using the data provided by Mr. Armstrong to basically say "See, there's a chance, so I carry."

Here's some evidence from above (page 6):
Perhaps you could share with us an actual example of a non-LE or military SD shooting where, after the shooting was done, you then needed to have your gun reloaded to engage another BG? I've researched over 10,000 shootings to one degree or another and I have never run across a single incident like that.



Here's some more (page 4):
Using Kleck, for example, the lifetime probability is about 1 in 200. Then it starts getting into wilder numbers. Actually needing to shoot the gun is about 2% of 1 in 200. That not working and the BG presses on his attack and you need to shoot him goes to about a 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Multiple shots being needed tosses it down to maybe 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200. Needing to reload then is about 2% of the 3% of the 6% of the 2% of the 1 in 200.

and my analysis of those numbers from page 4:
That means a reload is necessary in 36 out of every 10,000,000,000 cases.

I believe I saw an estimate that there are 700,000 instances of firearms used in SD annually (fired or not). If both those numbers are correct, it would be an average of 396 years before ANY of those 700,000 individuals would need a reload in a SD situation. In other words, the odds that YOU will need a reload in your own personal case are 700,000 times less likely than 1:396 years.

I'll ask again. Can ANYONE provide an example of a civilian in a SD situation that was killed because they did not have a reload? The odds supporting my position have been provided. If you question those odds, why? Please provide the correct numbers if you do not believe those are correct.

[Hondo11]

I carry two spare 8rd mags MOST of the time. Why? To be honest, it's not because I think I'll need them. I probably won't need ANY from the gun itself, much less all 9 and then some.

I carry them because, MOST of the time, it's just as easy to carry them as it is to NOT carry them. Whatever I'm wearing that will conceal a pistol will conceal 2 magazines. They aren't heavy, they aren't in the way of anything, they go on the same belt as my pistol, etc. There isn't anything extra I have to do to carry them, so why NOT?

Now, if I had to do anything extra to carry them, then and ONLY then, would I go to the next level and ask if I NEEDED to. Unless that's the case, then I just do. Because, absent anything negative from carrying them, why NOT?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

my private parts where no bad guy will ever find it.


Depends if the BG is glad to see you and what he has in mind. Ever see Deliverance?

:eek:

I think we are going in circles. Most DGUs are very low fire intensity situations. One can conceive of being in an intensive situation as in a terrorist or rampage. But they are rare. Despite all the uproar about Virginia Tech - there have been only about 14 college shootings.

Non-leo interventions in rampages have usually been low fire situations.

1. Tyler courthouse - civilian screwed up
2. Tacoma mall - civilian screwed up
3. Colorado church - ex-cop but civilian saved the day - BG suicided.
4. UT Austin Tower - then you get lots of civilian rounds but they were long arms.

I know lots of professionals who feel ok with the J frame for most situations in real life. As I said before, a gun and a reload is reasonable and doable without discomfort.

I do admit that sometimes I will Bat Belt up but that's like dressing-up.

[Wagonman]

Hondo that was a very reasoned and logical post.--------------Knock it off :D

[Creature]

I am awaiting the data supporting your opinion.

Oh for Pete's sake...what part of "opinion" requires supporting data? It's an opinion!

You, on the other hand, have been citing historical facts and statistical data non-stop...without actually providing any. So let's see them. As they say in the facts business: put up or shut up.

[Wildalaska]

I carry them because, MOST of the time, it's just as easy to carry them as it is to NOT carry them.

No its not. You have made a consious decision to carry spare mags, despite the extra work and unecessariness (hey is that a word:eek:). You can't justify it by saying it's "just as easy". You have extra stuff on your belt or in your pocket or whatever. Extra stuff ya got to put on and take off. Extra stuff ya got to worry about dropping, showing, cleaning, snagging on seatbelt or whatever.

Easy: Put on pants. Seecamp in pocket holster back pocket, wallet and money in pocket. Go
Not so easy: Begin to put on belt. Run through holster loops, adjust. run through mag pouch loops, adjust. Put gun in, adjust. Put mags in, adjust. Put on cover garment, adjust. Go. Modify for carry method of your choice.

Me...lifes too short to be adjusting guns, draggin my pants down etc. I'm a grab my pants and go guy. I'll save the firepower for times my hinkymeter picks up penumbras and emanations in the fabric of space/time

WildialreadyhavemycoffeewhileyouarestillgettingdressedAlaska TM

[Creature]

What about those of us that dont own a seecamp which slips oh so easily into the back pocket?

Of course its an effort...but it is an extra 4 or 5 seconds worth of extra effort. I still have to holster my weapon and then slip it onto the waistband of the pants that I happen to be wearing that day. So I disagree with the premise that it is far too much effort to carry an extra mag...simply because the effort required to slip my magazine holster with it belt clip onto my waistband is virtually nil.

[Wildalaska]

What about those of us that dont own a seecamp which slips oh so easily into the back pocket?

Get a kelTec. An NAA mini. Call me I'll get ya one.:D

Of course its an effort

There ya go....so the logic is the same as wearing a lightning rod on your head.:D

WildyourtimeyoureffortyourchoiceAlaska TM

[Hondo11]

From WildAlaska:
No its not. You have made a consious decision to carry spare mags, despite the extra work and unecessariness (hey is that a word). You can't justify it by saying it's "just as easy". You have extra stuff on your belt or in your pocket or whatever. Extra stuff ya got to put on and take off. Extra stuff ya got to worry about dropping, showing, cleaning, snagging on seatbelt or whatever.
Easy: Put on pants. Seecamp in pocket holster back pocket, wallet and money in pocket. Go
Not so easy: Begin to put on belt. Run through holster loops, adjust. run through mag pouch loops, adjust. Put gun in, adjust. Put mags in, adjust. Put on cover garment, adjust. Go. Modify for carry method of your choice.

Me...lifes too short to be adjusting guns, draggin my pants down etc. I'm a grab my pants and go guy. I'll save the firepower for times my hinkymeter picks up penumbras and emanations in the fabric of space/time

WildialreadyhavemycoffeewhileyouarestillgettingdressedAlaska TM

Nothing in my post said anything about YOU. It didn't say what YOU should do, but rather what I personally do and the reason why. I decide what is "extra work and unnecessariness" for ME. You decide that for YOU.

When I am in track pants or something, the 642 goes in my pocket. Rigging up a 1911 and spare mags in that case WOULD be extra effort. When I am putting on my jeans, belt, and belt holster, throwing on a mag carrier is not extra effort. Maybe 2 seconds worth...round that down to ZERO.

I'm not arguing FOR carrying extra mags. I'm making an argument why you can't argue against carrying it. I could also make an argument why you can't argue FOR carrying. Because it's personal choice. You do what you want. I'll do what I want.

These threads get stupid real quick...right about the time it goes from "This is what I do and why...why do you do what you do and why?" to "This is what I do and you should do it to because it's the only way and you're an idiot if you don't."

Hondoiprobablygetdressedfasterthanyouanywaywhichmeansicanwearextramagsandstillhavemycoffeebeforeyou11 TM

[Deet]

I hate the fact that so far everyone seems to be ganging up on creature. He has a valid point, the rest of you are attacking him needlessly. I will offer some facts to help support creatures argument. (he doesn't need my help, nor did he ask for it) It is seven times more likely that you will get hit by lightning in your lifetime than winning the state lottery, yet I still see people winning the lottery all the time. See figures don't lie, but liars can figure. Data won't save me when I reach for my spare magazine and I realize I took all your sound advice and left it at home. If you don't want to carry a spare magazine fine, just don't call the rest of use paranoid because we like to be prepared. Please don't cut and paste parts of my post, these are purely my opinion, and a little support for a fellow member who makes sense to me.
+1 for creature.

[Creature]

Call me I'll get ya one.

If its not for free, its not worth the effort.:D

There ya go....so the logic is the same as wearing a lightning rod on your head.

I expend more effort rolling out of bed in the morning than putting on the mag holder. Should I not get up in the morning either?

[dabigguns357]

Say we all live in florida and all of a sudden the national weather service came on the tv and said that a hurricane was nearing the florida coast and there was a 20% chance that it will hit your town/city.Would you start sealing things up and making plans or would you just sit back with a beer and sandwhich.Me,i'de start planning and be prepared,others wouldn't.

It's a personal choice that we all have to make.I don't know who said it but i like it,"it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it".

As i have said before i keep extra with me when i'm on the go.When i carry in the summer i carry a snubbie .357 and an extra speed loader in my pocket.

[Nnobby45]

I wasn't and haven't been discussing any type of tactical philosophy, I've been discussing actual necessity and likelihood of events. Very different animals there.

Anyone so silver tongued as to even attempt to seperate real events from the tactics created to deal with them, in order to win an argu...er, debate, is a man to be admired. That in itself is a bold tactical philosophy.

David, you need neither a gun nor a reload. You could talk 'em out of it. You'll never lose a debate or a gunfight.:D


Quote:
I agree with what Buzz said about carrying what you want, but from the looks of this thread, it isn't the no-extra-mag folks who are disparaging the others...



How could it be. Why would you disparage those who make sure they have the capacity to better deal with come what may. Whether it's to merely recharge their pistol or keep fighting. :p

Reginald Denny didn't go to work one day figuring to be dragged out of his truck and brain damaged to the point of (much later when he could speak again) say he had nothing against the folks that did it to him. I guess what counts is that the odds were in his favor that day.

Don't confuse disparaging someone personally with criticizing their tactical philosophy. All philosophies are a target to criticism because all are in opposition to someone elses.:cool:

[Wildalaska]

I expend more effort rolling out of bed in the morning than putting on the mag holder.

You could say the same about a head mounted lightning rod :)

WildandbotharestillawasteoftimeAlaska TM

[Wildalaska]

would you just sit back with a beer and sandwhich

Depends...if it was PB&J with a Bud I'd start duct tapin!

But perhaps if I was offered a rare roastbeef, russian dressing, jalapeno pepper jack cheese on dark rye with a schmeer of chopped liver pate and a kosher dill, together with a belgian lager I'd be cloud watching :)

WildjustlikeitakeasparemagwhenthereareaspateofgangshootingsonceayearAlaska TM

[Brian Pfleuger]

You, on the other hand, have been citing historical facts and statistical data non-stop...without actually providing any. So let's see them. As they say in the facts business: put up or shut up.

Actually, I outlined the data in my last post. I guess you're saying you don't believe that data, so I'll do two things:

First, where is the data that provides the reasoning for your not believing what has already been provided? If you say you have none, that's fine, but it establishes the point that I have been trying to make. Namely, my opinion is based on data, yours is not. You can choose to not BELIEVE that data or say that you frankly don't care what the data says but it doesn't make it NOT data or wrong data because someone chooses not to believe it.

Second, I'll provide you with some more data from a neighboring thread (Armed Citizen Analysis):

There were 482 incidents available for inclusion in the analysis....Overall, shots were fired by the defender in 72% of incidents. The average and median number of shots fired was 2....Reloading was required in only 3 incidents. One of those involved killing an escaped lion... When more than 2 shots were fired, it generally appeared that the defender's initial response was to fire until empty.


Let me point out the significance of this data:
482 incidents, an average of 2 shots were fired and when it was more than 2, the defender appeared to be simply emptying their gun and STILL only 2 (discounting the lion incident) needed reloads. That tells us that the VAST majority of incidents MUST have, by the rules of statistics, included no more than 2 shots fired. Also meaning that by those same rules, a large number of incidents must have been 1 shot fired or the average would be considerably higher than 2. It also seems likely to me that the two incidents needing reloads would correspond to the "firing until empty.", meaning that, in actuality, NO reloads were needed had the defender not decided to fire until empty. I admit that is conjecture but it seems logically consistent with the data.

How much more data must be provided?

Bottom line: Carry your extra mag, really, I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need. All the data shows that fact over and over.

[David Armstrong]

Anyone so silver tongued as to even attempt to seperate real events from the tactics created to deal with them, in order to win an argu...er, debate, is a man to be admired. That in itself is a bold tactical philosophy.
Again, philosophy is cool. However, philosophy is not always reality. It is just a simple concept---what are we talking about, reloads or ammo? You keep dodging that question--Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders? No reload, one reload, or two reloads? And can somebody provide any instance where the reality reflected the philosophy? To me it is much like the dreaded "tactical reload." Sounds great as a tactical philosophy, but in reality it turns out not to matter.
David, you need neither a gun nor a reload. You could talk 'em out of it. You'll never lose a debate or a gunfight.
Never say never, but so far you are half right. I've lost debates. I've never lost a gunfight.:)
Reginald Denny didn't go to work one day figuring to be dragged out of his truck and brain damaged to the point of (much later when he could speak again) say he had nothing against the folks that did it to him. I guess what counts is that the odds were in his favor that day.
No, the odds were not in his favor that day. He did not have all the information he needed to make an informed decision. If he had the information he might have decided to drive another route. That is the point, IMO. Use the best information to determine what you are going to do. If one wants to do a cost versus benefit, it helps to know what the cost actually is and what the benefit actually is.

[mavracer]

I admit that is conjecture but it seems logically consistent with the data.
not really it seams quite bias to me.
if three incidents required reloads. it's logical that shots were fired after the reload.If they shot to slide lock and threat was gone it wouldn't require a reload.
I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need.
first it would seam you do care otherwise you would quit telling me what I need to do.
second 3 out of 482 that required a reload might disagree.

[David Armstrong]

if three incidents required reloads. it's logical that shots were fired after the reload
But that ignores WHY the reloads were needed. I've got cases where people reloaded, but they were not in a normal SD mode any more. They shot at somebody and then chased them down the street, for example. Again, nobody is saying don't do it, some are saying don't try to tell us how important it is to do it.

[mavracer]

But that ignores WHY the reloads were needed.
because the gun was empty.now go ahead and try to tell me how many people are doing tactical reloads.
Again, nobody is saying don't do it, some are saying don't try to tell us how important it is to do it.
Again 3 out of 482 poeple might disagree how important an extra magazine is when a reload is required

[David Armstrong]

because the gun was empty.
And as noted, at least one of those incidents the gun was empty because the shooter was trying to go after an escaped lion. Thus the "why" can be an important factor if one is trying to figure out if it was needed for SD or if it was done for some other purpose.
Again 3 out of 482 poeple might disagree how important an extra magazine is when a reload is required
Or they might not. Hard to tell with the info provided. Of course, you are also assuming they were using an autoloader, and/or that the weapon was fully loaded at the time of the incident, and all sorts of other things. Whether those are reasonable assumptions or not is something we could discuss, but we should not ignore them. If Joe Cool grabs his empty revolver from the drawer, loads one round into it and fires, scaring the badguys away, then reloads and goes out on his porch and shoots at their car 3 times as they drive away it is quite a reach to say that indicates that carrying an extra magazine with you is very important.

[BuckHammer]

Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?
You have narrowed the options to create a bias for your point. What about the guy with the glock 17 with the 17 round magazine and two spares? Sorry, I didn't hear anything about him. I wonder why. Anyway, the guy with the glock and two spares is the most prepared out of those, assuming those are the only variables. So please stop posting that same scenario, we got it the first time, and I assure you that I am not the only one who is tired of reading it.

It's like a condom, I'd rather have one and not need one, then need one and not have one. I don't see how that opinion ignores facts.

1. If you don't carry spares, congratulations, there is better than a 99% chance that you will NOT die in a DGU scenario.

2. If you carry spares, congratulations, there is a better than 99% chance that you will NOT die in a DGU scenario. Furthermore, your extra mags will almost certainly have made no difference in a potential DGU scenario.

Basically, if carrying extra magazines is easy for you, and/or you want to do it, by all means do it. Even though your chances of survival in general have BARELY improved, they have improved nonetheless. If carrying magazines is trouble for you, or you just don't want to, that's FINE, your survivability increase of carrying an extra mag would have been negligible anyway.

Neither side is right, neither side is wrong. So please, stop arguing about it, unless you are just arguing for fun, in which case, go ahead.:D

[mavracer]

Of course, you are also assuming they were using an autoloader,
no I figured you were smart enough to substitute speed loader or even loose rounds in the case it was a revolver.
If Joe Cool grabs his empty revolver from the drawer, loads one round into it and fires, scaring the badguys away, then reloads and goes out on his porch and shoots at their car 3 times as they drive away it is quite a reach to say that indicates that carrying an extra magazine with you is very important.
I'm sure thats exactly what happened, what a way to loose credibility grasping at straws.

[Brian Pfleuger]

first it would seam you do care otherwise you would quit telling me what I need to do.

Actually, here's what I've told you and others to do:

...and I've said, more than once, that any one who feels it is necessary should go ahead and do it.

If you want to draw the line at an extra mag, go ahead. If your line is an extra mag and a bug, fine.


Bottom line: Carry your extra mag, really, I don't care...

It's really simple. Carry your spare mags. Really, I don't care

Why do you confuse my expressing my rationale with telling you what to do? I don't think you're telling me what to do by saying that you think carrying a spare is a good idea. I don't understand why this is being taken so personally.

Data is provided. We're asked "Where is the data?"

I (and others) provide the data again.... Answer: We don't care about your data.

I (and others) ask "Where is your data?" What's the reply? We don't need no data, it's opinion!

I (and others) say "Go ahead and carry if you want." We're accused of telling people what to do and potentially putting them in danger... "How would you feel..."

I don't think we even need to discuss how many times we went over the "Odds vs. Stakes" debate.

Shall we go around the circle again or are we done here?

[mavracer]

Why do you confuse my expressing my rationale with telling you what to do?
I don't care but carrying that extra mag is a decision based on want, not need.
IE you don't NEED to carry an extra reload.
I (and others) say "Go ahead and carry if you want." We're accused of telling people what to do and potentially putting them in danger... "How would you feel..."
then answer this one simple question.
How many times will somebody survive the DGU that REQUIRED a reload without one?

[David Armstrong]

You have narrowed the options to create a bias for your point.
No. I've pointed out a flaw in the reasoning that is being tossed around here. Hard to claim there is a bias when my point is that it doesn't matter either way. The problem becomes one of figuring out what some are talking about, reloads or ammunition.
So please stop posting that same scenario, we got it the first time, and I assure you that I am not the only one who is tired of reading it.

Then don't read it. I tend to post items like that because they serve a purpose. And I think you have helped that purpose by being unable or unwilling to answer the question posed.

[David Armstrong]

no I figured you were smart enough to substitute speed loader or even loose rounds in the case it was a revolver.
Oh, OK, I see. What you said was not what you meant. Nice to know that.
I'm sure thats exactly what happened, what a way to loose credibility grasping at straws.
You might note nobody said that's exactly what happened, or even that it was close to what happened.
How many times will somebody survive the DGU that REQUIRED a reload without one?

How many times will somebody survive a tiger attack in their living room that required a high-power rifle without one? How many times will somebody survive a meteor falling on them that required a meteor shield without one?

[mskdgunman]

For CCW, I carry one extra mag. Truthfully, I carry that more in case of a malfunction which would require me to strip the old mag and replace it with a fresh one then any anticipation that I'll need 10 or 15 extra rounds. Malfunctions happen at bad times (Murphy is a B#*ch). If, while in the capacity as an armed citizen, I run into a situation where I need more then two mags, they probably won't help me much anyway as it's apparently a REALLY bad day.

As a LEO, thats a different story. Basic load for me is one in the weapon (Glock 21) and three spares. My SHTF rig ads three more plus long gun ammo

[mavracer]

How many times will somebody survive a tiger attack in their living room that required a high-power rifle without one? How many times will somebody survive a meteor falling on them that required a meteor shield without one?
I'm gonna go with NONE.
Having extra ammo=never a bad thing
not enough ammo=dead
I'd recomend carrying one more round than you need.
so if you'll tell me exactly what that number is I'd love to know.
Heck since you and peet know exactly how my next gunfight will go down,tell me when and where and I'll stay away.

Thanks in advance.

[Creature]

One thing I did learn in Statistics 101...if you plan around the odds, Murphy will send a meteor shower your way. No matter what the dice have been rolling, there is ALWAYS a chance that you will roll all snake eyes for the rest of the day. Previous DGU's have absolutely nothing to do with the DGU that is waiting just around the corner with your name on it.

[David Armstrong]

I'd recomend carrying one more round than you need.
so if you'll tell me exactly what that number is I'd love to know.

You can't know, and that is the point. You have to make a decision to play the odds at some point. But you will always be playing the odds. Suggesting your odds are much better at 99.99999% as opposed to 99.9999% is sort of silly.

No matter what the dice have been rolling, there is ALWAYS a chance that you will roll all snake eyes for the rest of the day.
Yep, just like there is ALWAYS a chance a man-eating tiger will jump through your window and eat you today, and there is ALWAYS a chance a shark will attack you while you are swimming in a farm pond in Kansas. However, that doesn't mean one should devote much energy or effort to preparing to survive those incidents.

[starshooter231]

I carry 1 spare loaded with the same JHP as my firearm, and I have an extra spare in my car with FMJ.

starshooter231

[Brian Pfleuger]

How many times will somebody survive the DGU that REQUIRED a reload without one?

Many people have survived situations that "required" a fire arm but they didn't have one.


How many times will you survive a meteor strike? Do you prepare for one? An attack by a pack of wolves? Airplanes crashing into your house? Nuclear Holocaust? They probably all have higher odds than needing a reload.

Let's make a new song! (To the beat of "The Farmer in the Dell")

It's the stakes and the odds, the stakes and the odds, high ho the dairy-o the stakes AND the odds!


I'll ask again, since the question has been ignored at least twice. Can you name a SINGLE incident that the defender in a SD situation was killed or even injured because they did not carry a reload? One single incident? 700,000 DGU per year. Can you name one incident that resulted in a fatality or even injury to the defender due to not having a reload? Surely there would be SOME documentation of such a thing. There are tens of thousands of incidents documented where a reload was NOT necessary.

[mavracer]

Many people have survived situations that "required" a fire arm but they didn't have one.
obviously you don't understand the definition of "required"
Can you name a SINGLE incident that the defender in a SD situation was killed or even injured because they did not carry a reload?
why do you have some kind of sick need for somebody to die before you'll admit that having too much ammo is better than not enough?
why don't the 3 out of 482 that "required" a reload count?
how about a case where several guns were emptied
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_163_27/ai_99130342?tag=content;col1
or do you really need sombody to die

[Brian Pfleuger]

obviously you don't understand the definition of "required"

So, you would say that a situation where an innocent was beaten and raped in an alley didn't require a firearm? I'd say it did require one and yet people survive those incidents on a daily basis.

If you honesty believe that only situations that resulted in the death of an unarmed person actually count as "required" firearms situations then it is you who does not understand the word. I'm allowing for injuries in my question. If there was not at least an injury, what was the requirement for a reload? So, once again, do you know of a situation where a reload was required, resulting in the death or injury of the defender due to not having a reload? Even in the data provided on the 3 reloads (let's face it, 2 reloads, the lion shot with a .32 doesn't count) there is no evidence that the reloads were actually "required". If you fired until empty and the BG was nowhere to be seen, would you reload? Well, yeah. Is it a "required" reload? NOt unless you have to pull the trigger again. Fact is, if you fired until empty what is needed, 99.99% of the time, is a little trigger control, not a reload.


Back on topic, I'm actually comfortable telling people that they don't need to carry a firearm at all if they don't want to do so. Oh my God! What if they get killed!! I'm also comfortable explaining the reasons that they should consider carrying, if they want to hear it. Either way, it's their decision, not mine.

I've spent 32 years of my life without a firearm on my person and never needed one. I have one now because I want one. I seriously doubt I'll ever need one, much less a reload. So, if somebody says "Hey, I carry a XYZ handgun. Do you think I need a reload?" I'll say no, I don't think you do because..." If they choose to carry one anyway, great. If they choose not to carry one, that's great too. I'm pretty comfortable knowing that the odds are very high they'll never need the gun at all and if they do need it, they'll probably not need to fire a shot and if they do fire a shot, it will probably be 1 or 2 and if they fire more than 2, they will probably not need a reload. Also, if they do fire a single shot in SD it will be all over the news. See, things like that are EXTREME rarity (read, has never happened here except between small time drug dealers which doesn't count in my book) where I live. If they weren't, I wouldn't live here, but that's a topic from another thread.

As for your example above, I'm talking about reloads carried on your person. I have reloads available at home and work because there's no reason to not have them. I'm talking about taking reloads out on the street.

[Nnobby45]

No, the odds were not in his favor that day. He did not have all the information he needed to make an informed decision. If he had the information he might have decided to drive another route. That is the point, IMO. Use the best information to determine what you are going to do........

Ok, I get it. If all the people who were in gunfights had altered their behavior prior to the fight, they wouldn't have been in the gunfight they ended up in.
Chances are, some of us have avoided gunfights by deciding on one course as opposed to another and never new we avoided the gunfight, car accident, etc.

And if Reggy had had the information that he didn't have access to, he could have taken another route.

David, someone who ignores other peoples' questions and launches into piece by piece rebuttle of every point, shouldn't be demanding that people answer their questions.

However, I'll answer your question anyway. He/she who has the means to recharge one's pistol, without respect to it's initial capacity, is better armed than one armed with the same pistol, who wasn't forethoughtful enough to carry a reload.

Is one better armed with a G17 and no reload than one with a J-frame and two speedloaders? Yes, as long as a malfunction isn't encoutered that requires jettising the magazine on the ground and replacing it from the mag pouch. But not as well armed as with carrying a reload.

What makes for interesting analysis, is that the reasons some have given for not carrying a reload is time saving convenience. I know people who will toss their J-frame in their coat pocket to head for the store, and never think to carry a reload. Better than nothing, but a couple of speedloaders in the opposite pocket, or a mag. for the Keltec, etc. would be my choice.

After I've climbed into my IWB and holstered my pistol, nothing is easier than clipping on my Bladetech mag-flashlight combo (I use the Teklock rather than paddle) and being on my way.

[mavracer]

I'm talking about reloads carried on your person. I have reloads available at home and work because there's no reason to not have them. I'm talking about taking reloads out on the street.
and yet the only reason to not have them on the street is you don't want to.
It's not about need, til you need it.
So, you would say that a situation where an innocent was beaten and raped in an alley didn't require a firearm?
no it did't necessarly require a firearm.maybe just better situatoinal awareness,pepper spray or a stun gun.having a gun is not a magic "talisman"
also I don't concider the criminal fullfiling his act an acceptable outcome even if they let you live.
Even in the data provided on the 3 reloads (let's face it, 2 reloads, the lion shot with a .32 doesn't count) there is no evidence that the reloads were actually "required".
other than they clearly stated 3 incidences "required" reloads.

[azredhawk44]

In the summer, I carry a 5 shot revolver. I might or might not have a speed strip of .38's with me.

Closer to winter, I carry an autoloader. I have more clothing to conceal it. I also notice folks' tensions are higher in winter.

April historically has been a time of mad clown insanity. VT, Columbine, the American Revolution, many other events. Always in April. I'll carry an extra magazine in April.

Then May comes and I get to carry my little 16 ounce snub again. :-)

[horatioo]

Couldn't you say that you might need 4 extra magazines so why not have them just in case? But why stop at 4 you could be in a situation where you required 5 extra magazines. Why not carry them? But what about if you are attacked in some type of extended situation that lasts for days, say a hostage situation like "Die Hard" mightn't you need more than 5 extra magaizines of ammunition? Better carry 6 extra.

[David Armstrong]

Ok, I get it. If all the people who were in gunfights had altered their behavior prior to the fight, they wouldn't have been in the gunfight they ended up in.
While that is a distinct possibility, it has nothing to do with the Denny situation. Let's try it this way...if you were driving the truck, and heard on the radio there was a riot in progress and the rioters were throwing bricks at vehicles and beating people up, would you have driven into the riot or found a different route?
David, someone who ignores other peoples' questions and launches into piece by piece rebuttle of every point, shouldn't be demanding that people answer their questions.
If I have missed a non-rhetorical question of yours and did not answer, if you will point it out I will be glad to respond.
However, I'll answer your question anyway. He/she who has the means to recharge one's pistol, without respect to it's initial capacity, is better armed than one armed with the same pistol, who wasn't forethoughtful enough to carry a reload.
That is a nice answer, but it doesn't answer the question asked.
Is one better armed with a G17 and no reload than one with a J-frame and two speedloaders? Yes, as long as a malfunction isn't encoutered that requires jettising the magazine on the ground and replacing it from the mag pouch.
Seems such a simple question, yet so hard to get a straight answer to it. Again, the question does not include any "as long" consideration.
What makes for interesting analysis, is that the reasons some have given for not carrying a reload is time saving convenience. I know people who will toss their J-frame in their coat pocket to head for the store, and never think to carry a reload. Better than nothing,....
Far more than "better than nothing" it is actually sufficient for virtually any realistic SD DGU incident.

[Creature]

Far more than "better than nothing" it is actually sufficient for virtually any realistic SD DGU incident.

So how come you don't arm yourself with a single-shot Derringer...or even a double-shot Derringer (for those really dangerous situations) and call it day? Realistically, its all you're ever going to need, right?

[David Armstrong]

how about a case where several guns were emptied
Looks to me like you gave us a case where nobody carried a reload on them yet it worked out fine. Hard to see how that supports the idea of carrying spare mags on you.

[David Armstrong]

So how come you don't arm yourself with a single-shot Derringer...or even a double-shot Derringer (for those really dangerous situations) and call it day? Realistically, its all you're ever going to need, right?
I would suggest there is a big difference between a 1 or 2 shot derringer and a 5 or 6 shot revolver. First, note that the normal numbers in a shooting tend to hover around the 2-3 mark for average and mean, thus there is good evidence that you would need 2 rounds or more. Second, the derringer is far less ergonomic (for me) to shoot well. Third, I did carry a Hi-Standard .22 derringer (2-shot) quite often in the past and did not feel particularly endangered.

[Brian Pfleuger]

no it did't necessarly require a firearm.maybe just better situatoinal awareness,pepper spray or a stun gun.having a gun is not a magic "talisman"
also I don't concider the criminal fullfiling his act an acceptable outcome even if they let you live.

I didn't say it was "acceptable." In fact, I implied quite the opposite, using it as an example of a "gun required" situation. So, from your perspective, the mythical person who DOES need a reload, actually might NOT really need a reload because they may not have needed the gun in the first place if they'd been more aware or had pepper spray or a stun gun? So what you should be advocating is better situational awareness and then you wouldn't have to worry about a reload OR a gun. NOW we're talking about playing the odds! If you're REALLY aware, you probably won't need a gun at all. Hm, I don't like those odds.


and yet the only reason to not have them on the street is you don't want to.

I think that's been established multiple times. The opposite is also true. The only reason to have a reload is because you want one. The statistics do not bear out a reality that makes reloads a "requirement". You either have one because you want to or don't because you don't want to.

[BuckHammer]

Who is better equipped, the guy with a Glock 17 and one 17-round magazine or the guy with a 1911 and two 7-round magazines? Or is it the guy with the J-frame and 2 speedloaders?
The question of this whole thread was "How Many Spare Mags?" I don't see how your question is related in the slightest. Really think about it.

1. Guy with 17 round G17 would be better prepared with one or two spares.
2. Guy with 1911 and two mags is better off than the guy who has only one.
3. Guy with J-frame and speedloaders is better off than the guy without speedloaders.

The question in the thread wasn't about guns, it was about magazines. You can't ask, "Is the guy with one 10,000 round magazine better off than the guy with a J-frame and a couple speedloaders?" Well, you can, but it's ultimately irrelevant to the thread. Yes, more mags/speedloaders will make you more prepared than carrying the same gun without more mags/speedloaders. If I'm missing the point you are trying to prove with your question, please elaborate.

Bottom line is:
Basically, if carrying extra magazines is easy for you, and/or you want to do it, by all means do it. Even though your chances of survival in general have BARELY improved, they have improved nonetheless. If carrying magazines is trouble for you, or you just don't want to, that's FINE, your survivability increase of carrying an extra mag would have been negligible anyway.

[Nnobby45]

I have no doubt, David, that you could for days on end, sit there and casually dismiss any opinion different from yours as irrelevant (you already have). Just as you're about to dismiss this comment with yet another rebuttle.:cool:

All in the name of being right that one is not better armed when carrying a reload because the odds of needing it are insufficient.

[mavracer]

it is actually sufficient for virtually any realistic SD DGU incident
except the ones it's not.
So, from your perspective, the mythical person who DOES need a reload, actually might NOT really need a reload because they may not have needed the gun in the first place if they'd been more aware or had pepper spray or a stun gun?
no from my perspective "required" a reload means exactly that.the person needed a reload, and yes my hindsight is 20/20 also.
Again, the question does not include any "as long" consideration.
that's the problem with your side of the argument. life does not follow your rules.
hey if you don't want to carry a reload fine.just quit trying to tell everybody your just as well armed without a reload.

[Para Bellum]

see above
(and a backup knife on the weak hand side in case you get locked by a bigger guy on your weapon...)

[Dash]

i would rather carry an 8 round gun with a spare mag than a 17 round mag with no extra mag.

what if your primary mag fails?

[R_CRUZ]

I carry two spare mags loaded with Golden Sabers. My main carry gun is a 1911 and sometimes I carry FMJs in the spare magazines. The PM9 is always carried with HP bullets.

[Creature]

i would rather carry an 8 round gun with a spare mag than a 17 round mag with no extra mag.

what if your primary mag fails?

That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.

[Brian Pfleuger]

just quit trying to tell everybody your just as well armed without a reload.

Where did I say that? I said the odds are so ridiculously remote that you will never need it in a hundred lifetimes. That is what the data indicates. Does it help to carry 500 rounds if you need 2? Does it help to carry 20 if you need 2? It is logical to load a gun to capacity. That's why it has that capacity. If a reload was "required" we're back to the question of "What about the guy whose gun holds 18 rounds?" Does HE need a reload? If I carry a revolver do I need 2 reloads? If you think 12 is enough, can't I just carry a gun that holds 12 without a reload? See, there's no logic in the "reloads are necessary, period." but you obviously think it's VERY important or you wouldn't have asked me how I'd feel if I got someone killed.

By your thinking, I have to ask someone "How many rounds does your gun hold?" Them: "10." Me: "Oh, boy that's right on the edge. Hm, you better carry a reload..." but if them says "18" Well, see it's been determined that your only safe if you carry 20 rounds (For example). You better bring an extra mag with 2 rounds in it. If their CRAZY enough to pack a revolver! "Well son... you'd better have 3 maybe 4 speed loaders or you're under gunned."

See? There's no logic in the argument. My argument makes so much more sense:

Them: "Do you think I need a reload?"
me: "Well, odds are you'll never need your gun at all, but I do recommend that you carry one if your comfortable doing so. As for reloads, it's a near 0, once in 3 lifetimes event but, if it makes you more comfortable, go ahead and carry a reload."

[David Armstrong]

The question of this whole thread was "How Many Spare Mags?" I don't see how your question is related in the slightest. Really think about it.

It is related because some are using arguments for "carry spare magazine" that are actually "carry plenty of ammo", and the two are very different concepts.
Well, you can, but it's ultimately irrelevant to the thread.
We'll disagree. The original post even asks "how many" to carry. Thus the question of ammo versus reloads is pertinent, IMO.
Bottom line is:....
Agreed. That is what I've been saying for quite a while now.

[David Armstrong]

I have no doubt, David, that you could for days on end, sit there and casually dismiss any opinion different from yours as irrevalent (you already have). Just as you're about to dismiss this comment with yet another rebuttle.
I fail to see how pointing out flaws in an argument constitutes dismissal of a view. And I rarely declare an opinion is irrelevant simply because it differs from mine. I point out it is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the issue. If you disagree, then point out why you think it is relevant, as BuckHammer and I are doing.
All in the name of being right that one is not better armed when carrying a reload because the odds of needing it are insufficient.
I don't believe I have ever said that. That is part of the problem, IMO. The "carry spares" group consistently misstates the position of those who don't see a need.

[David Armstrong]

That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.
Wasn't aware it was much of an issue. IMO, if the odds are so great of your equipment failing you are that high, I think I'd try to find better equipment. I'm not aware of anyone who walks around carrying a spare firing pin just in case the firing pin breaks, or a spare barrel just in case the barrel cracks, etc. Again, it is a matter of cost versus benefit. If you want to carry those things around, go ahead, but the chance of needing them is, well, slim. Personally, I think "equipment failure" is a better argument for a spare weapon than a reload.

[Brian Pfleuger]

what if your primary mag fails?

That's an argument that neither peetza or armstrong have addressed fully and sufficiently.


That's the only legitimate probability of needing a reload, IMO. If you carry one for that reason it's more justifiable than thinking you need more bullets. An equipment malfunction that can be most easily cleared by a mag replacement may be common enough to justify carrying a reload for some people. It's not common enough for me to carry one however, which has been my general point all along.

Like I said, you've got to draw the line somewhere. Nothing will cover every possibility. You've got to decide, for yourself, which events are unlikely enough to ignore and make your decisions accordingly. No matter what, you're ignoring SOME events that COULD happen, only you can decide how far you want to take your preparation. You might be prepared for 99.9% of all incidents, add a mag and be prepared for 99.99%, add a bug and be prepared for 99.999%. At some point, it becomes irrelevant. For me, that point is a 9+1 Glock 33.

[FyredUp]

To me it is simple. The old better to have a gun and not need it, than need it and not have it applies to the carry a spare magazine or not.

I would of course carry a spare magazine, IF, and it is a HUGE IF, here in Wisconsin, I were allowed to conceal carry. Look we are not talking about massive weight or size for the assurance of having a reload.

[quinn2187]

i am just trying to figure out why is everybody saying one way is right or one way is wrong? some want reloads and some don't. its just a matter of comfort. are you comfortable with just one load of ammo. since no one here is taking on any criminal organizations their only use of a firearm will be for imediate protection of their life or a loved one. and almost always it will be withing 5 feet and one load should be just fine. for those of you that are worst case scenario people then maybe someone will try to rob you from 25 feet, not likely but i will throw you that bone. and in that instance ok carry a reload. the point is what ever makes you comfortable. i personaly have done both.

[Bulldozer]

I've had to draw and discharge a sidearm more than once while in fear for my life over the last fifteen years out in the world.

That being said,...

(a) if I am carrying my preferred 3" K-frame, it's 2 Safariland Comp I or II speedloaders and a folding tanto-blade knife.

(a1) if it is a higher risk area, then a 2" Model 10 (nubbed hammer)goes in the coat pocket, in addition to option A.

(b) if it is a 1911 Commander, then it's 1 or 2 spare mags -- all are JHP, plus the knife. I find the 1911 is being used very rarely for me. Usually use it when I absolutely need an ultra-slim profile.

[Nnobby45]

see above
(and a backup knife on the weak hand side in case you get locked by a bigger guy on your weapon...


Backup knife or a 642 BUG.:D

[onthejon55]

Again, it is a matter of cost versus benefit. If you want to carry those things around, go ahead, but the chance of needing them is, well, slim.

You're right. The cost of carrying an extra mag that weighs a whole few ounces is way too costly to ever justify carrying it even. Oh and while yr at it you might as well leave yr gun at home too since yr chances of needing that are, well, slim

[T.Bear]

I always carry at a minimum one extra reload when I'm carrying concelled.

[David Armstrong]

You're right. The cost of carrying an extra mag that weighs a whole few ounces is way too costly to ever justify carrying it even.
Please find a post where I (or anybody in this thread for that matter) has said that. You can't.
Oh and while yr at it you might as well leave yr gun at home too since yr chances of needing that are, well, slim
There is a world of difference between "slim" and "virtually never."

[Glenn E. Meyer]

2008 Dec 23
Law Officer Magazine Volume 4 Issue 12
The Peter Soulis Incident
Brian McKenna

Officer Peter Soulis was monitoring traffic from a service station parking lot when he spotted a Toyota pull onto the lot with its lights off. The driver drove to a spot directly in Soulis' line of sight, turned the Toyota toward the street and stopped. Ignoring Soulis, he sat eyes straight ahead, focused on the small strip mall across the street. It was almost midnight, and the only business still open in the mall was a sandwich shop.

Soulis decided to investigate. The lot was dimly lit, so he left his headlights off as he pulled forward and stopped behind the Toyota. After angling his car to the left for cover, he logged out on his MDT, grabbed his heavy-duty flashlight, and stepped out into the cool night air. The driver never took his eyes off the strip mall.

Soulis, a safety-conscious, 38-year-old officer with 11 years on the job, worked for a large metropolitan police department in a city with more than its share of violent crime, but the driver didn't look like a trouble-maker and appeared only to be drunk. Still, Soulis knew better than to take anything for granted. Waiting to turn the flashlight on until he got closer, he cautiously moved to a spot about 10 feet behind the Toyota.

Suddenly, the driver lunged to his right and down. Without conscious thought, Soulis drew his gun—a .40 caliber Glock 22—as he moved to his left and shined the light into the car.
"Show me your hands!" he shouted.

Slowly and without looking at Soulis, the driver sat up and raised his hands. He didn't say a word as he kept his eyes riveted straight ahead.

At Soulis' command, the man slowly exited the car with both hands in full view. Soulis was now standing well off to the left of the Toyota with his flashlight aimed into its front seat.
Glancing past the driver, he spotted a beer lying on its side on the floorboard, its contents foaming out onto the carpet. He relaxed a little at the sight of the open beer, but kept his guard up.

Soulis kept his light on the driver as he reholstered and ordered him to come to him.
Obediently, the driver stepped forward and handed Soulis his driver's license. After frisking the man for weapons and finding none, Soulis checked the license and identified the driver as Tim Palmer, a 27-year-old from a small town located many miles from there.

"What are you doing on this lot?" Soulis asked.

Palmer started fidgeting as he replied that he was waiting for some friends and had stopped to use the station's pay phone. Soulis knew that was a lie. Palmer had never gone near the pay phone.

He decided to run him for warrants but suspected he might take off on foot. After ordering Palmer to return to his car, he walked backwards to his cruiser, sat down, and tried to run him on his MDT. But NCIC was down, so there wasn't much he could do. He decided to ask for permission to search the Toyota and take it from there.

In the meantime, he noticed Palmer was nervously glancing around in every direction as he sat waiting in the Toyota. Although not particularly alarmed, Soulis didn't like what he saw.
Becoming increasingly convinced that Palmer intended to run, he lit up the car with his spotlight, headlights and takedown lights.

At first, Palmer turned away from the blazing light, but then he adjusted his inside mirror and fixed his eyes on Soulis. Now even more distrustful of Palmer, Soulis opened his door to start his approach, only to see Palmer's door also swinging open. Moving quickly to make contact before Palmer could run, Soulis stepped out of his car and started forward.

He'd gone barely 10 feet when the alarm bells went off. No fear or panic, but his senses were crying out for greater caution, and he changed his approach. He circled around the back of his cruiser and moved up to the passenger side of the Toyota.

As he stopped alongside the car's right-rear fender and looked inside, every instinct told him Palmer was armed and waiting for him. The man was sitting behind the wheel, hunched forward with both feet firmly planted on the floorboard, his eyes glued to the mirror and his right hand thrust between his legs. His left arm was locked straight down along his left side, pressed down onto the floor next to the open driver's door as he readied himself to spring into action.

Soulis' first thought was to go back to his car and call Palmer out, but he would have to retreat across open ground to do that. Confident his position gave him a solid tactical advantage, he drew his gun as he shouted, "Show me your hands, and get outta the car!"

Soulis had planned to shoot through the back window if Palmer drew a weapon, but for reasons he still doesn't fully understand, he moved forward and to his right, stopping alongside the passenger door, not more than two feet from the window. Instantly, he realized he'd made a grievous blunder. Grinning with blood lust, Palmer lunged across the seat and shoved a Smith & Wesson Sigma up into firing position. Before Soulis could react, the S&W barked flame, driving a 9mm solidly into the center of his chest. The impact knocked Soulis back slightly, but his vest stopped the bullet.

Palmer was out of the Toyota a split-second later, firing the gun at him over the roof.
There was no other cover nearby, so Soulis went down onto one knee behind the front fender to put the Toyota between them. But, at the same instant, two rounds crashed through his left arm, one just above the wrist and the other dead center on the forearm.
Another struck him in the left thigh, although he wouldn't become aware of it until later.

Soulis was shooting back now, pumping rounds through the windshield into his assailant.
Palmer went down immediately, and Soulis used the opportunity to seek better cover. The only decent cover nearby was his patrol car, so he started backpedaling in that direction, Glock at the ready and eyes scanning for Palmer's return as he moved. Then, spotting the cruiser out of the corner of one eye, he turned and started to sprint toward it. He had barely completed the turn when Palmer opened fire again. One round missed, but another tore through his left shoulder and exited his left bicep. He kept moving until he reached the back of the car, where he dropped to one knee and got back into the fight.

Palmer was scurrying back and forth down the driver's side of the Toyota, shrieking with rage and stopping sporadically to fire, but Soulis was more patient. He held his fire, waited for Palmer's head to pop into view, and then took a shot each time it appeared. Although Soulis knew he was getting hits, Palmer seemed impervious to his gunfire.

Soulis was also becoming apprehensive about his wounds. The bullet hole in his left wrist was an ugly, swollen mess that made him wonder if he would have enough dexterity to reload, and the one in his thigh was spewing blood all over the back of his cruiser.
Believing his femoral artery had been hit, he pressed his left hand down over the wound, but that only caused the blood to shoot out another, previously unseen bullet hole. He feared he would bleed out before he could stop Palmer.

Soulis also heard a woman screaming across the street, leading him to believe he may have hit a bystander. He later learned she'd only been screaming in fear, but at the time he could only think of having hurt one of his citizens, and the idea angered him. It also had an unexpected effect—it made him focus on the importance of stopping Palmer before someone else got hurt.

With these thoughts came an unexpected calm, followed by a new resolve. Up to this point, he'd been fighting a commendable, though primarily defensive battle. But now, infused with the realization that Palmer had to be stopped and that only he could do it, he went on the offensive. Now the predator, he resolved that Palmer would never leave the parking lot, even if he had to take more hits to stop him.

Soulis' gun wasn't empty yet, but he knew better than to take the offensive without reloading. As he ejected the partially empty magazine and slapped in a fresh one, he saw something he hadn't expected. Apparently, Palmer had seen the ejected magazine hit the ground and assumed Soulis had either collapsed or run out of ammo. He left the cover of the Toyota, and advanced toward Soulis. Unaware that he was approaching a conscious and fully armed police officer who knew how to capitalize on an opportunity like this, Palmer walked toward the cruiser. Soulis waited patiently, tracking the man's approach by watching his feet under the cruiser.

Palmer hesitated when he reached the cruiser's right-front fender, as if to consider moving over to the driver's side. Soulis knew he'd have trouble tracking Palmer if he came around that way, so he decided to make his move without delay. He lunged out from behind the car, thrust the Glock up into firing position, and opened fire. His first two rounds hit Palmer center chest, rocking him back on his heels. Palmer flinched as two more rounds hit center mass, and then started backpedaling toward the Toyota. He was still holding his gun, but never raised it to fire.

After reaching the car, Palmer dove over the trunk and dropped out of sight. Soulis paused, and then cautiously started forward again. As he moved closer, he spotted Palmer crawling up into the Toyota's front seat and starting the engine.

Soulis stopped and fired two rounds through the back window. The first missed, but the second hit Palmer in the upper back, driving his head forward into the steering wheel.
That seemed to have done the trick, but then Palmer sat up again, dropped the transmission into reverse, and started backing up. With no time to ponder how Palmer had absorbed so many hits, Soulis took aim and emptied the magazine into his assailant.

Palmer rolled over to his right and dropped the gear shift lever into drive, causing the car to lunge forward into a chainlink fence a few feet away, where it came to a stop. After watching Palmer long enough to make sure he didn't get up again, Soulis called for backup and waited for help to arrive.

The Aftermath
Remarkably, Palmer had taken 22 hits from Soulis' .40-caliber Glock, 17 of which had hit center mass. Despite the fact that the weapon had been loaded with Ranger SXTs— considered by many to be one of the best man-stoppers available—Palmer lived for more than four minutes after the last shot was fired. His autopsy revealed nothing more than a small amount of alcohol in his bloodstream. Although Soulis could not have known it, Palmer was wanted for murder in a neighboring state.

Soulis made a full recovery and returned to work less than a month later. He has since retired, and now works for a national railroad as its principle special agent for counterterrorism. He also serves as an adjunct instructor for KFD Training & Consultation and Policecombat.com, which provide cutting edge training for police officers in advanced close quarters combative tactics and officer survival skills.

Discussion & Analysis
Soulis is quick to point out that he made a grave error when he moved up next to Palmer's passenger door, but he courageously overcame that mistake. Motivated by an unshakable commitment to winning and a warrior spirit, he went on the offensive and turned an almost certain defeat into an impressive victory.

This incident included many other important learning points—life-saving lessons purchased with Soulis' blood. We owe it to him to learn as much as we can from them.

An in-depth analysis of this case reveals many other crucial lessons related to officer safety, including how to respond to danger signs, how to handle suspicious persons, the hazards of allowing a motorist to return to his vehicle, what to do when you suspect a subject may be armed, resilience to gunfire and how to win even in the most desperate situation.

------ For the IDPA crowd - note - not a tac reload - give him a procedural!

I admit a puckish sense of humor on posting this - it is a police scenario. But civilian carry is a different beast - so let's see how this interpreted by our two sides of the debate. ;)

[David Armstrong]

so let's see how this interpreted by our two sides of the debate.
You've already interpreted it, IMO..."civilian carry is a different beast ." Soulis was responding in an offensive mode, we don't have a SD situation.
BTW, what constitutes "grinning with blood lust"? Gotta love some of the imagery!:D

[popeyespappy]

I'm prepped, I wear a tinfoil hat.

We, the dedicated and well paid civilian contractors for big brother, figured out how to read your thoughts through the tinfoil hat back in the 70s. Then in the mid 80s we figured out how to use it as an antenna to put thoughts into your head….

[Dustin0]

Well hears my 2 cents, carry whatever you like. I carried Para Warthog with 1 Extra mag the likely hood of me needing all 21 rounds of 45ACP are slim to none. But I was a boy scout and always prepared.

[FyredUp]

Hm, a different beast? Maybe. Where would a civilian run to if the bad guy he needed to defend himself from took all the rounds of his one magazine and kept coming? Sorry no, to me, it is fool hardy not to have at least one reload for your concealed carry gun.

This guy wasn't even high and it took 22 hits, 17 center mass, to stop him from a .40 caliber handgun. Thank god this officer was ABLE to relaod or it would have more than likely been another LODD.

IF Wisconsin ever gets progressive enough to allow concvealed carry I will ALWAYS carry at least one reload. If for no other reason I can use it to cover my retreat.

[P99AS9]

1 in the gun and 2 spare

[mavracer]

Where did I say that? I said the odds are so ridiculously remote that you will never need it in a hundred lifetimes. That is what the data indicates.
I would point out that your data says 3 out of 482 DGUs required reloads.but we already established you don't think required means required.
and while I hope your right and I never even use my gun for defense I'd rather be prepaired.besides I actually leave town sometimes durring normal days and BGs are not the only things that need shot.

[onthejon55]

Again, it is a matter of cost versus benefit.

Your right this obviously doesnt mean that you think carrying an extra mag is too costly to justify any benefits.

There is a world of difference between "slim" and "virtually never."

That difference could mean losing your life so if you are willing to risk that than by all means go for it ;)

[David Armstrong]

Where would a civilian run to if the bad guy he needed to defend himself from took all the rounds of his one magazine and kept coming?
The same place he would run to if the BG he needed to defend himself from took all the rounds of his two magazines and kept coming? Of course, first we need to come up with a legitimate scenario where a BG kept on attacking in such a manner as described. Note that even in the Soulis incident the BG did not press an attack until Soulis confronted him, kept him from leaving, and gave the BG reason to believe he was going to be arrested, as I see it.

[David Armstrong]

Your right this obviously doesnt mean that you think carrying an extra mag is too costly to justify any benefits.
No, of course not. My point is that we all pick a point at which we compromise our defense. For some to try to argue that there is need to compromise at the 99.9999 mark as opposed to the 99.999 mark just strikes me as rather silly. The cost factor of the extra mag is minimal. The benefit factor is also minimal.
That difference could mean losing your life so if you are willing to risk that than by all means go for it.
Not keeping that .416 Rigby by your chair could mean losing your life when that tiger leaps through your window. Only having 2 magazines instead of 3 could mean losing your life. Only having 32 rounds with you instead of 58 rounds could mean losing your life. Having 2 magazines loaded with 7 rounds of .45 instead of 1 magazine with 17 rounds of 9mm could mean losing your life. Lots of things could mean the difference, but I don't think one should worry much about it.

[BuckHammer]

I actually leave town sometimes durring normal days and BGs are not the only things that need shot.
+1.

Not keeping that .416 Rigby by your chair could mean losing your life when that tiger leaps through your window. Only having 2 magazines instead of 3 could mean losing your life. Only having 32 rounds with you instead of 58 rounds could mean losing your life. Having 2 magazines loaded with 7 rounds of .45 instead of 1 magazine with 17 rounds of 9mm could mean losing your life. Lots of things could mean the difference, but I don't think one should worry much about it.
Much of your examples are not convenient for most. For many, the carrying of extra magazine(s) is easy and convenient. Also, we're drifting back to talking about different weapons, as opposed to reloads, which is what this thread is about, at least IMHO, although I have noted that you disagree.

Why don't we just get into another 9mm vs .40 vs .45 while we're at it?:rolleyes:

And it all still boils down to:
Basically, if carrying extra magazines is easy for you, and/or you want to do it, by all means do it. Even though your chances of survival in general have BARELY improved, they have improved nonetheless. If carrying magazines is trouble for you, or you just don't want to, that's FINE, your survivability increase of carrying an extra mag would have been negligible anyway.

[David Armstrong]

Much of your examples are not convenient for most.
Keeping a large caliber rifle by the chair seems convenient, at least as convenient as doing the spare mag routine. is carrying 2 spare mags really any more inconvenient than 1? And is it less necessary (since many seem to be arguing the necessity point) if it is more inconvenient?:confused:
For many, the carrying of extra magazine(s) is easy and convenient.
And for others it is not so easy or so convenient. Again, cost versus benefit.
And it all still boils down to:....
+1

[mavracer]

And for others it is not so easy or so convenient.
wow! how lazy or incompentent do you have to be that throwing an extra mag in your pocket is difficult or put you out enough to be inconvenient?

[right winger]

I carry two 15 round magazines with JHP:)

[SilentHitz]

wow! how lazy or incompentent do you have to be that throwing an extra mag in your pocket is difficult or put you out enough to be inconvenient? My thoughts exactly...can't believe this has gone on for 9 pages for such a simple question by the op.:rolleyes:

Guess a lot of folks just like to argue...excuse me...debate. :p

[David Armstrong]

wow! how lazy or incompentent do you have to be that throwing an extra mag in your pocket is difficult or put you out enough to be inconvenient?
You assume that one must be either lazy or incompetent to feel that carrying a spare mag most of the time is not worth it. How lazy or incompetent do you have to be not to carry a large rock around in your pocket? How lazy or incompetent do you have to be not put a red, a blue, and a green Sharpie in your pocket evey day before you go out?
Often it has nothing to do with lazy or incompetent, it has to do with realizing that there is no need. I guess the counterpoint could be how paranoid and delusional do you have to be to think you need a spare mag with you all the time. Of course that would be a gross mischaracterization of the "extra mag" position, just as "lazy and incompetent" is a gross mischaracterization of the "not needed" position. Strange how one side here keeps resorting to trying to insult the other personally rather than discussing the position on the factual merits and issues. Might make some wonder about how weak their position actually is.

[Capt. Charlie]

...can't believe this has gone on for 9 pages for such a simple question by the op.
Nor can I. It was harmless most of the time, but, as is the case with most long threads, it's going 'round and 'round, and tempers are starting to flare.

Probably time to put this one to bed.

Closed.