Preferred Carbine Caliber

[300magman]

I'm looking at getting a carbine length gun (almost certainly a Rem 7600 pump) and I'm wonding which caliber will be the superiour performer.

I believer there are only two options, .308 and 30.06. I love my 30.06 bolt with its 26" barrel BUT I've been told that the 30.06 round burns its powder very slow and therefor a short barrel will cost me approximately 75fps for every inch lost. Well at 18.5" thats 600fps !!!! and that would seem to make the rounds Much less effective.
I guess I'm wondering if this is true, and if it is, will the .308 perform better ballistically (flatter trajectory, more impact energy out to 300 yards) with these carbine length barrels.

The only experience I have with carbines is with a .308 semi that a friend of mine has....and it seems to shoot flat and hard out to 250 yards and beyond with no signs of such extreme loss due to its short barrel. (But then, I don't own it, so I haven't really been able to test exactly what its ballistics are like, they just seem pretty flat from the shooting I have seen him do.)

Sorry for the long post....basically I'm asking 30.06 or .308 which performs better and what will the ballistics look like from an 18.5" barrel (An actual ballistics chart would be Great! if there is a way to get one for anything but a 26" barrel, which is all I ever find)

[300magman]

Just a though, assuming what I was told about slow powder burn leading to massive velocity loss in short barrels is true...and if I were to learn to handload...could I just use a faster burning powder or would that not be possible (safe).

[j.chappell]

It really depends on the load and the barrel. All barrels even of the same length and even make differ in achieved velocity.

It’s my experience that depending on bullet weight and caliber you can expect to see a difference of 25-75fps/inch. I have rifles with 20" barrels that attain higher velocities than some of my rifles with 22" barrels in the same caliber with the same load. I also have rifles that wear the same barrel length that differ as much as 40-65fps with the same load.

Just for a little information, the following load is one that I have worked up for my M77 in .308WIN. It is safe and shows no sign of excessive pressures in my rifle.

Firearm: Ruger M77 20" barrel
Case: Hornady
Primer: WLR
Powder: 46gr. IMR 4064
Bullet: 165gr. Hornady SPFB

Average Velocity: 2713fps.

[Smaug]

If you're shooting at 200+ yds, it seems like a carbine is the wrong choice of rifle.

Carbines are for the intermediate ranges. Beyond 25 yds. it is harder to hit with a handgun, but still easy for a carbine. Carbines should be able to still hit easily at slug shotgun ranges and beyond.

You could load your carbine ammo with slightly faster powder to minimize the losses from the shorter barrel...

I'm thinking of a carbine for my next gun too; probably a Marlin 1894 in 44 Magnum. That should be about a 150 yd. gun.

[300magman]

Both valid points...but does anyone want to stake their reputation on actually picking a caliber that they think would be the better performer? 3.08 or .30-06 which is going to be flatter and hit harder in a carbine.

[SR420]

I have two 7.62x51/.308 MK14s with 18.0" barrels that are awesome performers.
Both have an effective range of about 700 yards. One shoots sub MOA, the other shoots MOA.

[Ricky]

If you look at the ballistics of both you will see that the .308 gives up very little to the 06. Being a shorter cartridge it allows a smaller reciever, a slightly more compact rifle. The .308 is usually loaded with faster burning powders so theoreticly it should perform better in a shorter barrel rifle.
I have a Ruger bolt action lightweight rifle in .308 and if I'm going to be covering some territory it is my go to gun. If i'm going to be stand hunting I prefer my Weatherby 30.06 because it's a tack driver.

Ricky

[300magman]

True enough about the possibility of a shorter receiver...but in this case (rem 7600) the rifles are both the exact same size and weight despite the differences in caliber.

Interesting about the faster powders though...perhaps that would make up for the advantage in velocity and energy that the 06 has when used in longer barrels (at least with factory ammo, I'm still not sure what I can do with the 06 and handloads)

[j.chappell]

I am assuming that you are thinking of getting one of the limited edition 308 carbines offered through Grices or are having one cut down as Remington does not offer a 308 version in their normal line up.

All things being equal it boils down to personal preference as you will only gain a few fps from the 06, you also will only burn a few more grains of powder to attain those few fps. I see no advantage in getting the 06. If however you already have dies and brass well then there is the added advantage of already being set up to reaload for your new rifle.

If it were me I'd go with the 308 as I see no need for the 06 in a carbine. If you feel you need the heavier bullets and more power then you need to really look at your decision to buy a carbine in the first place.

308 Winchester gets my vote!

[Scorch]

Given the two caliber choices you've stated, my vote would be for the 308, since it is typically loaded from the factory with faster powders than the 30-06, so it will achieve more of its potential maximun in the shorter barrel. That said, I would recommend a longer barrel length for either one, since both will be handicapped by the short barrel.

[Buzzcook]

.308 hands down. Why try to turn the .30-06 into a .308 when it's already right there. The .30-06 has excess case capacity for a short barrel.

[fisherman66]

In a blind taste test 9 out of 10 shooters would never perceive a difference. 10 out of 10 deer couldn't differentiate either.

[Nnobby45]

There was a fellow in a course I took who had an M1 rifle converted to .308. It was a short barreled tankers' version.

Muzzzle blast was rather excessive. Even short barreled .223's have too much muzzle blast for me, but I'm and old geezer with only one good ear left. Not necessarily an issue for everyone.:cool:

If I need to grab a carbine when I leave the house, It'll be a Mini 14 or AO M1 .30 Carbine with DPX.

[publius]

I don't know if they still make them but the remington pump in 35 whelen is sweet. If not the 308 gets my vote.

[SR420]

Nnobby45 There was a fellow in a course I took who had an M1 rifle converted to .308. It was a short barreled tankers' version.

Muzzzle blast was rather excessive.

Yeah, a short barreled Garand is kinda like a Mosin-Nagant when it comes to muzzle blast and fire balls.

A well made .308 is a different animal :cool:

[Art Eatman]

The '06 loses some 75 ft/sec/inch when you go to cutting a barrel back toward carbine length. The .308, having a more efficient set of case dimensions, loses somewhere in the 25 to 40 ft/sec/inch range.

All in all, it's reasonable odds that from a carbine, the .308 will have a bit higher muzzle velocity than the '06.

[fisherman66]

Art, are you using the same bullet weights in the comparison? If so, does that concept work as the necks are shrunk; ie 280 vs 7-08?

[Crosshair]

Um, Smaug, did you read the OP. We are talking about carbine length 308 and 30-06 rifles. Not pistol caliber carbines.

As for me, with the shorter barrel, I'd go for the 308.

[MacGille]

While a mathematician might find some differences, there is no practical difference between the .308 and the 30-06. Powder burn, muzzle velocity, range, bullet drop, accuracy are, to all extents and purposes, the same.

The 7.62 NATO cartridge was developed to duplicate the 30-06 ballistics in a shorter case. And it does. If you put a rifle cartridge in a short barreled carbine, you are going to have a larger muzzle blast, velocity drop, and reduced ballistics. Any large cartridge will lose in a short barrel. If you want efficiency in a shorter barrel go with a smaller and more efficient cartridge. Like the 30-30, or the .30 carbine. Or, you can use a large pistol cartridge to better effect in a carbine barrel.

This as all just common physics guys, a given cartridge is designed to best effect at a given barrel length. The farther you get from the design length, the farther you deviate from the design ballistics. I know that shooters love to tinker with guns to see if they can beat the professionals, but they very seldom do. Most wildcats remain wildcats because it doesn't make sense to change a proven design.:)