View Full Version : Glock 21 or Hk USP 45
Firepower!
August 14, 2008, 03:56 PM
Hi
I have decided on buying a 45 and had narrowed down my choices to G21 and Hk USP45.
I am really torn between the the two but I will have to decide on one. The both cost the same to me since I am not in US. I have been very impressed with my 9s in G19, G26 and HK P2000.
Can you guys share your experience?
Thanks
ElectricHellfire
August 14, 2008, 04:08 PM
That is a very hard choice. I dont own an HK mostly due to the price but they are great weapons without question. I DO own a Glock 21 and I love it. It is my favorite .45acp to shoot as I find that it is accurate and recoil is easy. I like it enough to station it at my bedside. I also have a Glock 19 that I carry and a Glock 22 just because I wanted one :D and a Glock 26 soon! I know Im addicted and if I was addicted to HK Id be broke as well.
Perhaps the only drawbacks for the HK would be aftermarket parts and customer service. Ive heard (only heard) that they are not real good about taking care of the individual comsumer. Glock on the other hand has a stellar reputation for its customer service. I know this first hand.
If they are the same price where you are then that makes the choice even harder. You have some experience with both it sounds like so either will serve you very well in whatever capacity you need it. Thats my speel.
Good luck.
Van55
August 14, 2008, 04:13 PM
I'm very pleased with my HK USP45c. It feels solid in my hand, shoots accurately and looks good (to me).
I've held plenty of Glocks in my hands for shopping purposes and have fired one. They just feel "tinny", look ungainly and don't fit my hand well. YMMV
HK123
August 14, 2008, 04:26 PM
If the USP is ok for your hand get that one. It's much higher quality IMO.
While a Glock may function fine, it is my opinion that an HK is a much more refined and better designed gun. The grip on a USP is pretty large though.
If you can find an HK45 (not the USP) check that out. IMO it's a better choice. Don't know pricing outside the US.
HKFan9
August 14, 2008, 04:34 PM
I agree with HK123 and he even owns a Glock I do not. But a lot of people say the grip of the USP is big and I don't find it to be. TO ME I'd say a Glock has a bigger grip, the HK feels fine for me. I mean its big compared to my Kahr or revolvers I guess. I've never heard anything bad about either Glock or HK's customer service, probably because the reliability on both is so high they don't get sent back as often as say Taurus firearms. Both will do the job, but IMO the HK looks, feels, and shoots superior. Worth the extra cash in my book. I got my brand new USP for $700, and it was right next to a used USP 45 that was $550.
P.S. - You probably just started another war between HK fan boys and Glockophiles, LET THE FLAMING & GLOCK BASHING COMMENCE!
For real though why cant we all just be friends.
The Terminator
August 14, 2008, 04:35 PM
OK, I'll chime in. What are you going to do with it? How much real abuse will it take? Will it be kept very clean, a range gun, a car gun, a ccw? A daily carry gun? Will your life depend on it?
If I wanted a very nice range gun, I'd pick the H&K.
If I was going to have to let it be abused, I'd take the Glock.
I'd think that the H&K is more accurate, though I've no proof of that.
I've owned a G21. It had the usual Glock reliability.
How many rounds does the H&K hold? Does that matter?
Will you later be re-selling, or do you think that you will keep it for a long time?
Will children be around the gun? H&K gets my vote here.
Best -
HKFan9
August 14, 2008, 04:40 PM
Quote
"Will children be around the gun? H&K gets my vote here. "
That's a good point and probably the only good reason for the H&K internal lock.
Rampant_Colt
August 14, 2008, 04:40 PM
I have both.
The HK is unmatched in performance.
The HK is accurate with anything you put in it
Feeds any ammunition [Glock too]
Silghtly smaller grip than the Glock
The option of changing the safety 7 different ways. From DAO to SA
My main gripe with the HK USP is the price of mags for it
Both have polygonal barrels
*Glock 21SF is a sweet piece*
The HK is worth the extra coin IMO
Firepower!
August 14, 2008, 04:52 PM
I will be using my 45 as follows:
1. Daily carry
2. Clean it when dirty but not after firing each time
3. Need reliability since I carry hot round
4. No children access
5. Number of rounds in mag matter
6. Rain and dirt abuse as well as various cheap to expensive ammo abuse.
7. I am medium built so cant have a very large grip or odd pistol like vp70
I really like what I read so far.
For those of you who carry hot round: does a decocker on USP matter in your preference or not?
Thanks
HK123
August 14, 2008, 06:20 PM
For those of you who carry hot round: does a decocker on USP matter in your preference or not?
Nope. I carry federal HST147gr +p in my Hk P30 (9mm) and my HK45 gets federal HST 230gr +p, but I am switching to the standard load.
I've also used DPX in both guns (+p ammo). Also, I have fired Double Tap loads through both which is loaded above +p (even though he claims it isn't).
If I was going to have to let it be abused, I'd take the Glock.
The HK can take any abuse the Glock can.
Here's a site that details all the testing the USP went through before moving to retail. http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html
The Terminator
August 14, 2008, 07:04 PM
Yeah, the HK can take any abuse the Glock can take, but at a substantially higher dollar cost. That was the point.
HK123
August 14, 2008, 07:25 PM
Yeah, the HK can take any abuse the Glock can take, but at a substantially higher dollar cost. That was the point.
As I said before, I believe the HK to be superior in fit, finish, appeal, function, and overall quality. So the price difference is for that.
9x19
August 14, 2008, 07:27 PM
The USP's magazine release alone, makes me vote Glock... the 21SF is even better than the original, IMO. :D
Y'all be careful dry-firing your USPs, and if you need service, I'll keep you in my thoughts! :p
The Terminator
August 14, 2008, 07:31 PM
I don't understand why someone would buy a much more expensive pistol, knowing that it was to be abused. I doubt that anyone who has responded to this thread is living in field or battle conditions on a daily basis. Enlighten me if you can.
The purpose of the questions were to establish primary use. Since the OP did not state that the gun was to live a very rough and harsh service iife, it did not seem to matter if he spent more money on it, for the HK.
HK123
August 14, 2008, 07:31 PM
The USP's magazine release alone, makes me vote Glock... the 21SF is even better than the original, IMO.
Y'all be careful dry-firing your USPs, and if you need service, I'll keep you in my thoughts!
The mag release is FAR FAR superior to Glock's POS doohicky...you need an extended release just to be able to hit it properly. :rolleyes:
Yes I own a Glock...I do not like the mag release. the USP is easier to hit, just use your trigger finger keeping the gun pointed on target.
The USP Firing pin was replaced with a new design. They will NOT break anymore. Anything made after around 1998 will have the new one.
awpk03s
August 14, 2008, 07:36 PM
I've owned an HK USP Compact 45, shot a USP in 45, and presently own all Glock 45s (21SF, 30SF, 36). I think the HK is a better gun. However, the higher price of entry, extremely higher cost of mags and accessories (as well as availability) means my safe is filled with Glocks, not HKs. The Glock is a great gun, and will perform wonderfully everything you noted that you're looking for.
vox rationis
August 14, 2008, 07:44 PM
First of all, you can't go wrong with either. They are both excellent guns.
I've got both a Glock and two HK's, but I also vote for the USP for the same reasons as listed above, if of course it fits your hand well and you like the method of operation, with the safety/decocker lever (I am a big fan of this set up).
I would also say that the HK45 is better yet.
jmr40
August 14, 2008, 08:03 PM
The HK 45 I owned for a while was the biggest dissapointment I have ever had in a handgun. I really liked everything about it better than any other gun I have ever owned, until I started shooting it. Mine would shoot several very small groups all over the target. The first 2-3 would be clustered into a tiny group 3" to the right of POA. The next 2-3 would be in a tiny group 3" low and so on to the point that 12 shots would be all over the target.
It was probably a fluke, but it left a bad taste in my mouth, especially at that price. Since I bought mine used I did not try to send it back. I traded for something else and have not looked back. My Glock 21 does not feel or look as good but it just plain works every time. It is also pretty darn accurate. Only my 1911's are better, and only by a small margin.
HK123
August 14, 2008, 08:07 PM
The HK 45 I owned for a while was the biggest dissapointment I have ever had in a handgun. I really liked everything about it better than any other gun I have ever owned, until I started shooting it. Mine would shoot several very small groups all over the target. The first 2-3 would be clustered into a tiny group 3" to the right of POA. The next 2-3 would be in a tiny group 3" low and so on to the point that 12 shots would be all over the target.
Don't blame the gun for poor trigger control. It is WELL documented that an HK trigger is very hard to get used to and you have to practice a ton. It isn't a 1911 with a tuned trigger. It does take some getting used to. There's at least 100 threads on HKPro stating this exact same thing and every single one of them was the shooter not having proper control of the new weapon. Practice, Practice, Practice!
1911s and Glocks are very easy to shoot well, you can basically go out and shoot well if you know how to get proper grip and sight alignment. an HK or SIG? Not the same. You have to shoot and dry fire a lot.
jmr40
August 14, 2008, 08:19 PM
HK123,
Don't get me wrong, I did not intend to slam HK guns. I said it may have been a fluke in my first post. But I did not shoot the one I had well at all. Maybe the problem was me, maybe not. But for $200 less money I shoot the Glock much better and I can get 3 Glock magazines for the price of 1 HK magazine.
I do like the way the HK feels in my hand. The position of the safety and other controls are very well thought out. If I had shot mine well at all it would have become my favorite gun.
While I never intended to slam the HK as a bad gun, I feel that someone asking advice should know that at least someone had a bad experience with one of the guns in question.
vox rationis
August 14, 2008, 08:22 PM
While I never intended to slam the HK as a bad gun, I feel that someone asking advice should know that at least someone had a bad experience with one of the guns in question.
Hey don't feel bad, the thing didn't work for you, plain and simple. And in a sense you are lucky that a less expensive gun, with much less expensive magazines, fits you and makes you shoot better.
9x19
August 14, 2008, 10:40 PM
The mag release is FAR FAR superior to Glock's POS doohicky...you need an extended release just to be able to hit it properly.
Yes I own a Glock...I do not like the mag release. the USP is easier to hit, just use your trigger finger keeping the gun pointed on target.
HK123,
Stubby thumbs making you cranky? :D I don't have any problems with reaching the Glock magazine release, but perhaps my thumb is a bit more articulated than yours.
As for the USP mag release, it spans the trigger guard at the rear, and must move down along it's length. My issue with that is my middle finger always seems to be snugged up against the trigger guard, right where the mag release is. I found I had to shift my grip to allow the mag release to pivot down-ward.... Needless to say, we didn't get along very well. ;)
It's good to hear H&K upgraded the firing pins to eliminate the breakage issue... do you know, did they find their photog' a helper who can load mags properly? :p
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/pb9x19/HKbackwards.jpg
vox rationis
August 14, 2008, 10:53 PM
It's good to hear H&K upgraded the firing pins to eliminate the breakage issue... do you know, did they find their photog' a helper who can load mags properly?
Dude, don't know? HK's are so good they can shoot the ammo even if its loaded in backwards! :p
By the way, I like to activate my USP mag release by using both thumb and trigger finger, at the same time, works fer me wacky fingers quite good!
Firepower!
August 15, 2008, 01:33 AM
Guys thanks for your input so far. There are two things I have noticed that concern me now from reading posts.
1. The breaking of firing pin issue is worrying me. Although the USP I am buying is new, I am not sure if its pre or post 1998 issue. No way to find that out since its in remote place and I can only get my hands on it if I buy it.
2. The HK trigger issue. As pointed in posts that HK trigger needs getting used to. I do not like the sound of that. I dont want to sell the gun on myself and then force myself to learn how to shoot it well. No not at all. I want the gun to service me, and work right out of the box.
These are 2 issues that now are nudging me towards Glock and thinking Glock is superior. To me a superior weapon is what affectively serves you right out of the box rather than training myself to it.
Btw, by hot round I meant a roundin chamber not loaded +P.
Also the Glock in question is not SF.
ragwd
August 15, 2008, 02:30 AM
I have the HK USP 45 C and the Glock 21sf. Both are great pistols, don't think you could go wrong with either. I voted HK but I sure do like both. I do like the trigger and the 13 rds capacity on the Glock. But the HK compact carries alot better and it feels so much better in hand. Good luck on your choice.
HKFan9
August 15, 2008, 02:38 AM
HK trigger doesn't take that much getting used to. I shoot it along side my DA revolver and DA Kahr PM-9 and there's no issue. I've shot groups with it DAO by decocking it every shot and the groups really did not suffer much at all from the SAO groupings. As for the firing pin, its a non issue anymore, just a Glockophile trying to make you drink some Kool-Aid.:) If the gun is new it has the new firing pin. Personally a Glock's trigger, grip, and grip angle take a lot more getting used to than a USP. I would go as far as saying my USP feels and shoots much like a fat 1911. Personally DA/SA is far superior than any other set up, if people complain about it, they don't know what trigger control really is.:) I go from shooting my varminter that has a 1lbs trigger pull to DA pull on my USP and still hit precisely what I'm aiming at. Not to mention all the SA pulls that are dialed in after it thanks to H&K's recoil reduction system. Glocks are good, but if you can afford it, buy something great.... buy an H&K.:D
I also reload the USP the fastest, the mag release is better than any other firearm IMO. It can be used easily with my trigger finger to drop the mag w/o changing my firing grip.
LanceOregon
August 15, 2008, 02:46 AM
5. Number of rounds in mag matter
Then get a HK USP Combat Competition in .40 S&W. It holds 16 rounds in its mags.
It is about the same size and weight as the Glock 21 SF.
.
MTMilitiaman
August 15, 2008, 03:07 AM
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l308/MTMilitiaman/Guns/becauseyousuck.jpg
Ralph2
August 15, 2008, 07:33 AM
The Grip on the HK is a bit large for my hands. The old G21 is a better fit for me. The G21SF even better.
I have a 9mm HK and had a 40. I find the grip is a slight bit uncomfortable for me. Otherwise I rate both at about the same level. The Glock is easier to strip for cleaning and to reassemble in my opinion.
The Terminator
August 15, 2008, 03:35 PM
So, whats it going to be? Fanatics have gone to name calling, and not sticking to the issue. I hope tha that does not affect your decision. It is a shame that some have to overly criticize, and some also have to defend at all costs. What a way to ruin a good thread. I get tired of seeing it. You can't really tell if somone is tongue in cheek, or serious, most of the time when reading posts.
I think that one should enjoy all fine firearms, and it sounds like a decision that many would agonize over. My final word, I'd stick with what I know. I've had half a dozen glocks, and one hk. That, I think, shows what I'd do. However, I'd love to have an hk usp 45 compact. I'd even trade my favorite G23 for one. best -
Van55
August 15, 2008, 03:48 PM
I hadn't heard that the H&K trigger is an issue.
I have USPs in both 9 and .45 and have had no trouble whatever "learning" the triggers on these. Maybe that's a product of my inexperience with other guns, but I do shoot more accurately with the H&K than I do with my Springfield semi-autos.
JAXX
August 15, 2008, 03:58 PM
I personally love my HK USP .40c. It is much more comfortable in my hand than any Glock ever has been. I also love the fact that I can carry it cocked & locked. That light trigger pull on the first round in SA mode is way more comfortable than the long heavy pull of a Glock. If you think about, chances are that the first round that you fire in a crisis situation could be the most important round you ever fire, so I like knowing that the first round out of my USP is coming light and fast (if that makes sense). I also like the fact that the German engineers who designed the USP required a machined part for every specific job in the gun. There are not pieces required to do multiple jobs within the weapon like the Glock does, 1 part, 1 job.....period. While the Austrians are not slouches when it comes to machine work, anyone who knows anything about metal fabrication & machining knows that the Germans are top notch, it is literally bred into them. While anything that is man made can and will fail, I truly believe you get what you pay for when it comes to HK.
c4v3man
August 15, 2008, 04:00 PM
If they are the same price, definitely go for the USP 45. If the trigger is a problem, get a USP tactical (if available) which comes with the cleaner match trigger, or get the HK45 model, which comes with most of the match trigger components anyways. Honestly though, either pistol will suit your needs.
I dry fire my USP Expert 45 occasionally, and while I usually use snap caps (buy some for either gun... good for malfunction drills at the range) I've never had a problem when not using a snap cap. The firing pin is NOT a problem.
HK123
August 15, 2008, 05:14 PM
1. The breaking of firing pin issue is worrying me. Although the USP I am buying is new, I am not sure if its pre or post 1998 issue. No way to find that out since its in remote place and I can only get my hands on it if I buy it.
2. The HK trigger issue. As pointed in posts that HK trigger needs getting used to. I do not like the sound of that. I dont want to sell the gun on myself and then force myself to learn how to shoot it well. No not at all. I want the gun to service me, and work right out of the box.
1) ask for the date code. You can search it online and find the year it was built.
2) If you do not want to learn a gun then DON'T BUY A GUN! The trigger takes practice, as does mastering any weapon you plan to own and use. If you think you can grab any gun out of the box and shoot it POA every shot then you've another thing coming. I may sound like a real you know what here, but lets be reasonable.
Every Gun no matter what needs YOU to learn it.
vox rationis
August 15, 2008, 06:07 PM
1) ask for the date code. You can search it online and find the year it was built.
2) If you do not want to learn a gun then DON'T BUY A GUN! The trigger takes practice, as does mastering any weapon you plan to own and use. If you think you can grab any gun out of the box and shoot it POA every shot then you've another thing coming. I may sound like a real you know what here, but lets be reasonable.
Every Gun no matter what needs YOU to learn it.
I agree.
You can get a list of the date codes off the internet, do a search.
Also, either you'll have to get used to the Glock trigger, or the HK trigger, but either way, you'll need practice. I carry my USP's cocked and locked generally, and getting used to a single action trigger is quite easy, although you do have to train in order to develop the muscle memory for swiping the safety off, which shouldn't be a big deal if you practice shooting with it regularly. There are advantages to having a manual safety, but if you don't get properly drilled in its proper manipulation you are asking for trouble if you have to use it when under stress. Or you can just decide to use it DA/SA, but HK DA triggers on the USP are heavy.
Firepower!
August 16, 2008, 09:53 AM
Well I agree that if one wants to shoot well then practice practice and practice. However it is entirely a different issue when need to get used to a weapon. I dont want that. I want a reasonable fit for myself, which I will off course practice a lot, no matter Glock or Hk. Yet, I am reluctant in picking a handgun which has some odd trigger! Does it?
That said, I have P2000 in 9mm. How different it the USP trigger from it? I really don't find anything odd with it or anything that needs 'getting used to.' i shoot my G19, G26 and P2000 very well. In fact from 75 yards I can place the entire mag in a 4'' group.
I have 1911 Colt, but its old a worn out. Otherwise I think that was the best 45 there. Too bad I cant find a new one here in PK. My options are limited to G21, hk usp45 or maybe sig220.
vox rationis
August 16, 2008, 11:02 AM
Firepower, figure out what variant trigger you have on your P2000, and then you can see about getting the same set up in a USP.
P2000
* V0 - CDA trigger system (SA/DA). SA trigger pull of 20 +4/-2 N (4.5 lb), DA trigger pull 51 +5/-5 N (11.47 lb).
* V1 - CDA trigger system (LEM). The LEM trigger is a dual stage trigger that fires from a hammer down position in both SA and DA mode, but has an internal mechanism that is cocked with each cycle of the action. It provides a constant trigger pull of 20 +4/-2 N (4.5 lb).
* V2 - CDA trigger system (LEM). Like P2000 V1 but with an increased trigger weight. The trigger pull is 32.5 +2.5/-2.5 (7.3 lb).
* V3 - SA/DA trigger with a decocking lever mounted at the posterior of the slide to the left of the spurred hammer. SA trigger pull of 20 +4/-2 N (4.5 lb), DA trigger pull 51 +5/-5 N (11.47 lb).
* V4 - CDA trigger system (LEM). Like P2000 V1 and V2 but with a mid-range trigger pull of 27.5 +2.5/-2.5 N (6.18 lb).
* V5 - Double Action Only (DAO) trigger system. Trigger pull of 36 +3/-3 N (8.09 lb).
USP Variants:
1. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety/decocking lever) on left side of frame
2. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever
Variants 1 and 2 allow the user to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode, with or without the manual safety engaged.
3. DA/SA without "safe" position with control lever (decocking lever) on the left side of frame
4. DA/SA without "safe" position with control lever (decocking lever) on the right side of frame
Variants 3 and 4 provides the user with a frame-mounted decocking lever that does not have the "safe" position. This combination only allows the hammer to be lowered from SA position to DA position. It does not provide the "safe" position to prevent the pistol from firing when the trigger is pulled.
5. DA-Only with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the left side of frame
6. DA-Only with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the right side of frame
7. DA-Only without control lever (no safety/decocking lever)
For the DA-Only user, variants 5, 6, and 7 of the USP operate as double action only pistol with a bobbed hammer always returning to the DA position (forward) after each shot is fired. To fire each shot the trigger must be pulled through the smooth DA trigger pull. Variants 5 and 6 have a manual safety lever.
No control lever is provided on variant 7.
9. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the left side of frame
10. DA/SA with "safe" position and control lever (manual safety) on the right side of frame
HK123
August 16, 2008, 01:42 PM
However it is entirely a different issue when need to get used to a weapon. I dont want that. I want a reasonable fit for myself, which I will off course practice a lot, no matter Glock or Hk. Yet, I am reluctant in picking a handgun which has some odd trigger! Does it?
Any weapon system needs you to get used to its function. It's not a matter of getting a gun you like the feel of. It's a matter of shooting said gun and being proficient and safe with what it offers you.
creyc
August 16, 2008, 02:06 PM
Yeah, the HK can take any abuse the Glock can take, but at a substantially higher dollar cost. That was the point.
After reading this real-life torture test it doesn't seem like that statement holds true:
http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90&Item
Read about halfway down, where he performs many of the same tests on the USP, and reports its failures in the same circumstances where the Glock performs fine.
HKFan9
August 16, 2008, 02:40 PM
I always laugh at that test that is so bias its unreliable. It's been debated here on TFL a bunch. If you don't have reliable research than the data is not valid. Glock and HK's are just as reliable as one another. They are both hunks of mechanical metal so eventually they all fail somewhere, someplace, sometime. I've seen Glocks jam and I've seen H&K's jam. I've seen more Glocks jam BUT WILL CONTRIBUTE THAT TO THE MERE VOLUME THERE ARE OF GLOCKS OVER HK AT THE LOCAL RANGE. Any trigger takes getting used to. Actually any gun takes getting used to. Like I said i have 3 guns I carry, a SA/DA USP full size, Kahr PM-9, and a S&W m-60 snub nose, none of which are similar. I practice with all three each time I go for the range, and the manual safety on the USP does not slow you down, its clicked off during mid draw.
To the OP: Both guns do the same job, and will do it the same. Get what you feel comfortable with. Many will agree the H&K is made nicer and looks better, which sadly is important to a lot of people including myself. I can't shoot a Glock, I'm sure I could with enough practice, but that's the only firearm I struggle with so I do not want to alter the way I've been shooting since I was young to compensate for a handgun that I particularly don't need. I prefer SA/DA, a manual safety so for awhile I fought between a Sig p226 and a HK USP. I opted for the USP because its lighter, tad slimmer, has a nice recoil reduction system, and well, I've always been a fan of HK, just something about em.
There's going to be fans on both sides. Find a place you can hold/shoot both, I recommend to shoot both first more than anything. They're both well made from good manufactures so get what YOU like, not what we like.
HK123
August 16, 2008, 10:52 PM
Read about halfway down, where he performs many of the same tests on the USP, and reports its failures in the same circumstances where the Glock performs fine.
With no proof whatsoever. This test is as good as me posting pics of my gun in a bucket of sand and saying "it worked fine, but the other one didn't"
Truth is, it's biased and very much unreliable as a source of info.
Smaug
August 17, 2008, 04:41 AM
I've shot them both, and here are my feelings.
HK:
-has an easier trigger to shoot accurately
-has $50 magazines, if you want to buy more
-has more moving parts, hence higher chance of failure, all else being equal. To me, it is the most refined, conventional action DA pistol.
-doesn't kick as much as the Glock, their recoil reduction system is no joke. Not that the Glock kicks hard, but the HK kicks less.
Glock:
-is lighter
-is simpler
-will work better when dirty or when some dumbass puts sand in it.
-is unexciting
-has the more consistent trigger pull (depending on the HK variant chosen)
-has a bit of a long reach to the trigger for me. (I'm 5'8" and have average size hands) It wasn't a problem, but I had to be aware of how I held it.
I had a Glock 34, (competition 9mm model) with the extended mag release, and didn't like it at all. It had that sharp corner that was always rubbing my thumb, even after I filed it a bit round. I prefer the standard location. I'm right-handed and prefer the more typical right thumb mag release location to the under-the-trigger location of the HK.
In the end, I don't like Glock triggers, I won't be filling it with sand, so I'd go with the HK.
forest15
August 17, 2008, 05:00 AM
Firepower, I have pretty average hand size I guess, and my G21 is one of my favorite guns to take to the range. I'm not saying it is better than the H&K you are looking at, I've never fired that model, but I do not think you will be disappointed at the quality or feel of the glock if you go that direction (also, mine is not a SF model).
HK123
August 17, 2008, 04:01 PM
will work better when dirty or when some dumbass puts sand in it.
Not according to Larry Vickers who did his own sand test a few years back. Things may have changed for the better regarding the G21, but the USP fared much better than the G21 in the testing he did. If you look it up through google you'll find it.
Smaug
August 17, 2008, 04:13 PM
HK123, are you sure you're not getting it backwards?
I was referring to the link creyc posted earlier. Sand stopped the HK cold. The Glock still worked.
HK123
August 17, 2008, 04:44 PM
No, do a search for "Larry Vickers Sand Test" and browse it. You'll see that even a rack grade 1911 (i.e not custom fitted) worked decently while the Glock did not. Every gun tested needed some special manipulation in order to fire and nothing worked right for the first pull out of the sand. However, the Glock did not fair as well as the other designs tested that day.
Again it doesn't matter, you're not going to bury your gun in the sand are you? The fact is a properly maintained and lubed weapon should and probably will always fire.
There's links to some videos on glock talk in an old thread that has been locked for some time, that show that the G21 used by that test linked to above needed special manipulation to fire and he had multiple FTF issues after dropping the gun from a plane. He even changed the magazine for a fresh one after the drop.
That tells me his test was and always remains 100% pure BS.
here http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9906620&postcount=118 the videos clearely show that the Glock did NOT fire flawlessly but needed special manipulation to fire reliably. Just as Larry Vicker's test showed here http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9873377&postcount=1
Again neither is real world, neither is repeatable 100% of the time, and neither and indicative of how your pistol may or may not function.
Firepower!
August 18, 2008, 01:10 AM
I am pretty confident I wont be pouring sand or other mixtures in my pistol. Nor will I be driving my Benz over the gun or knocking it around.
Thus these torture tests are meaningless to me.
I can see sand and mud going in the pistol if it was to be dragged in harsh combat conditions. But then I wont carry a pistol in to a combat let alone any other weapon the Ak47.
I need this pistol take abuse as far cleaning and ammo is concerned. That is it.
hknut
August 18, 2008, 01:32 AM
I would go with the USP over the Glock.
9x19
August 18, 2008, 10:01 AM
HK123,
During their field-suitability tests, the FBI had no trouble with the Glock in their own "sand-box" test... Larry Vickers.... isn't he a gunsmith who earns his living fitting parts together? :rolleyes:
I've no idea how the HK USP would do in a similar test, as the FBI didn't report any tests on it... but they do issue Glock 22s and 23s now. :D
As reported by Walt Rauch:
"When the FBI tested the Glock models 22 and 23, they did abuse testing, a parts interchangeability test, exposure tests, an obstructed bore test, a Field Suitability Evaluation plus accuracy and endurance tests. In addition, all pistols had to have a service life of 10,000 rounds.
Glock’s 22 and 23 met or exceeded all requirements.
The Field Suitability Evaluation used agents of different size, height, weight, and sex who put 250 rounds thru three of each model pistol. This included a 30 round bullseye course, then 2 10 round strings from the holster at the FBI Q target from 10 yards, then fired two more 10 round strings from the ready position. They also fired five 10 round strings from ten yards as fast as they could fire and reload. Another two 10 round strings were fired from prone at Q targets 50 yards away, Finally, they shot two 50 round FBI qualification courses. FBI gunsmiths also fired the pistols from bench and Ransom rests for accuracy.
Abuse tests included: They field stripped three guns, and swapped parts among them, then fired 20 rounds from each without failure. Two of the pistols were put into a freezer to –20F for one hour, then immediately withdrawn and fired, next they went in an oven at 120F for one hour and immediately withdrawn and fired. With the pistols containing primed cartridges in their chamber, and dummy rounds in the mags, they were next dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet: muzzle down, muzzle up, on their right side, on their left side, sights down, and squarely on the butt. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning.
The guns, loaded again with primed cartridges in their chambers, and dummy rounds in the mags, were tossed from a height of four feet, to a distance of 15 feet onto concrete, landing twice each on their right and left sides. The guns could not fire and the magazines had to stay in place. Immediately following this, the cases were examined for primer indents then the pistols were fired with 20 rounds to ensure proper functioning. Two magazines, loaded with dummy ammo were also dropped, twice at each orientation, onto concrete from a height of four feet onto their base plates and onto their feed lips. They could not lose a round and were then tested by firing 10 rounds each without a malfunction.
They also dunked them in salt water for 5 minutes, pulled them out, shook them for 15 seconds, rinsed them with clear water and let them sit for 24 hours then fired 20 rounds without malfunction (shrug). One of the three guns was cleaned, lubed and loaded then put in a box containing half play sand and half road sand, and covered up. It was removed shaken out and fired until empty. The last abuse test had a bullet lodged in the barrel, one inch in front of the chamber. Then one round of service ammunition was fired with the obstruction in place. The pistol could not rupture or fragment the frame slide or barrel. As an added test five more rounds were fired after the first round cleared the barrel obstruction.
The endurance test meant firing 10,000 rounds thru each of the six pistols. No major parts replacements were allowed, including magazines, and the malfunction rate could not be greater than 1 in 2000 rounds. The pistols never missed a beat, with zero malfunctions in 60,000 rounds. They were then fired with another 10,000 rounds, for a total of 20,000 rounds each, and a grand total of 120,000 rounds (that’s 145 five gallon buckets of empty brass). One model 22 needed a new trigger bar after 17,131 rounds and another 22 needed a trigger bar after 19,494 rounds. The other model 22 and all three model 23s made it thru all 20,000 rounds without a failure. Following the endurance tests, the pistols were once again tested for accuracy and passed (4” at 25 yards with a variety of ammo from 155 to 180 grain bullet weights).
"
Old Timer
August 18, 2008, 11:56 AM
Smaug said:I'm right-handed and prefer the more typical right thumb mag release location to the under-the-trigger location of the HK.The only thing I didn't like about my HK was the mag release. It was just too far down for me. Then I learned to release it with my trigger finger. Now, with a little retraining, I have learned to love it. :)
HK123
August 18, 2008, 03:18 PM
Guess who pushed for Glocks to be introduced? Larry Vickers. He doesn't particularly like the G22, G23 but he is an FBI certified firearms instructor and one of the many Glock proponents in the industry today. He even calls it a "Glock World" in his classes. He trains with, uses, and teaches with a G19 more than any other pistol simply because in his mind it's a reliable, simple, and all around good firearm.
He isn't anti-glock, he's actually one of the major players that push for Glock adoption into service.
I'm simply saying that his testing didn't mirror the testing by that other guy. What does that mean? No two tests will ever be exactly the same when there's factors out of human control.
9x19
August 18, 2008, 05:08 PM
HK123,
I can agree that no two tests will ever have identical results.
I must have Vickers confused with someone else. Thanks for clarifying.
HK123
August 18, 2008, 05:18 PM
LV is hard on the .40 and .45 Glocks. I mean to say that he doesn't recommend them and thinks the design is poor for these models. However, he stands by the 9mm models as being one of the best today.
9x19
August 18, 2008, 10:12 PM
Everyone has preferences and opinions, and my experience forces me to disagree with Vickers on the above.
My experience with Glock's products has not left me disappointed in any of their offerings.
I currently have at least one in every caliber they make, except the .380 (not imported for sale to non-leos), and I've found the design to be just fine in 9mm, .357Sig, .40S&W, 10mm and .45ACP.
:D
vox rationis
August 18, 2008, 10:26 PM
Yeah well if you're gonna put your USP in wet sand, then have the common sense to not leave it on half cock :D
And if you put your Glock in regular sand, put a but plug in it as sand can work its way into the internals via that communication between the grip hole and where the trigger assembly is, and, possibly get the gun to jam up and not reset like in Larry Vickers' Glock sand test (the one where the USP and even a 1911 beat out a G22..and yes I bet you he didn't have the 1911 cocked and locked, or the USP cocked and locked or at half cock).
Bottom line though, I doubt that any of us will be crawling through our garden with our pistols on our belts :D
Firepower!
August 22, 2008, 06:32 AM
After carefull review of the invaluable recomendations on this thread and other on TFL, and shooting the pistols side by side, I have chosen Glock 21.
I made Glock 21 for the following reasons:
1. Superior product when it come to reliability and durability.
2. It handles very well when shooting rapid, i had an auto kit put on it.
3. For point no 2 availability of extended magazines.
4. Trigger suited me better than that of HK.
5. More accessories available for it where I live.
Thus, Glock 21 I chose.
Thank you everyone for your input.
HK123
August 22, 2008, 04:15 PM
. Superior product when it come to reliability and durability.
That point is 100% wrong. Fail.
...possibly get the gun to jam up and not reset like in Larry Vickers' Glock sand test (the one where the USP and even a 1911 beat out a G22..and yes I bet you he didn't have the 1911 cocked and locked, or the USP cocked and locked or at half cock).
LV says the following in his testing which you would know if you actually read it.
"The pistols were loaded in the mode you would expect in a field environment - condition 3 for the 1911, loaded for the Glock and loaded in DA mode for the USP"
The Terminator
August 22, 2008, 05:32 PM
Congratulations.
I'm sorry that you have to read all of the sour grapes from folks who just can't stand that we all have different opinons. I could live with either one, but, i'd buy the Glock first, because it is significantly less expensive for a product that for all practical purposes is just as well suited for the job.
No double stack 45 really appeals to me, the grips are just a tad large. I do like the singles, especially the Glock model 36. It is on my short list of guns-to-get.
How about a range report, soon. Best -
HKFan9
August 22, 2008, 06:09 PM
I'd agree with HK123 that your point #1 is wrong, me being an HK fan boy or not.
But I have a question about #2, from the GLOCKS I shot were very unforgiving and H&K has a single action trigger along with a recoil reduction system that works great, how is the Glock suited for better rapid fire? I'm only asking a question I don't hate all Glocks I'm considering a Glock 20 in 10mm.
Also what is an "auto kit"?
ElectricHellfire
August 22, 2008, 06:22 PM
I dont know what the "auto kit" is he is referring to, but rapid follow up shots with a Glock are super easy when shooting from the reset. Its an easy skill to learn IMO and vastly decreases the amount of time between accurate follow up shots. I have nothing against HK so dont start the flaming. :D
HKFan9
August 22, 2008, 06:54 PM
I wasn't trying to start a whizzing match at all its just the statement seemed odd to me. I openly admit I never spent enough time with a Glock to feel as comfortable as I do with my HK. I'm very reluctant to any DAO (o whatever a Glocks trigger technically is) trigger anyways. In my head just seemed the recoil reduction system and SA trigger would work slightly better, but I never tried shooting the reset. I have a USPf 9mm so the thing doesn't really move off the target I just wait for the front sight to line back up and another one goes flying when doing double taps, rapid, ect. As far as a .45 goes my preference I think will always be a 1911, followed by maybe the USP. Haven't got a chance to fire the new HK45 yet. Those $2000 HK MK-23's keep staring at me as well, or am I the one staring.:rolleyes:
ElectricHellfire
August 22, 2008, 07:01 PM
Any of you HK guys have any experience carrying the P2000SK? I am looking at buying a G26 but the HK looks really nice. The specs seem pretty close with the HK being just a tad thicker. Anyone routinely use this model for carry?
IGO1320
August 22, 2008, 11:44 PM
I do. Mine is .40 LEM V1. The gun will shoot 1.5" groups from 25 yards (resting). My gun will feed anything exept very light loads. I have had no problems with any off the shelf factory loads. The finish has held up great for the first 18 months of daily CC. None of my previous CC guns finishes held up for more than a few weeks before the edges started to wear the blueing off. Some of my friends do not like the LEM, I love the safety of it for CC and have no problem with the long light pull. I have fired roughly 5000 rounds through it so far, I generally shoot about 150 rounds a week split pretty evenly between it and a P2K I shoot in competition. Have a nice day.
HKFan9
August 23, 2008, 12:40 AM
I have been checking out the p2000sk as well, haven't heard anything bad yet. Come to the light side Electric:D
Tatsumi67
August 23, 2008, 08:48 PM
I actually just got some range time with both of those guns, and the Glock 21 out performed the USP in terms of both accuracy and performance, but thats not saying the USP is bad by any means.
9x19
August 23, 2008, 10:22 PM
Superior product when it come to reliability and durability.
That point is 100% wrong. Fail.
That statement is 100% conjecture based on one single test of one single gun. Fail.
:D
The Terminator
August 24, 2008, 12:26 PM
I have decided that some who spend much more on a gun, must justify that by berating another that is either equally or more reliable, but much less expensive. And you know who you are.
vox rationis
August 24, 2008, 12:45 PM
I have decided that some who spend much more on a gun, must justify that by berating another that is either equally or more reliable, but much less expensive. And you know who you are.
..while others that have a more cheaply made item try to convince themselves that the quality is just as high as the better made, higher price example :D :p
Like Hi Point owners claiming that Glock owners are snobs that grossly over payed just for the Glock name, when they could have had a solid reliable performer at a much cheaper price, with a lifetime warranty to boot! :D
I have both Glock and HK, and there's no doubt about it that the HK is the better made, higher quality item. That might not matter to some as Glocks tend to work well enough, but let's be honest here. :)
The Terminator
August 24, 2008, 12:48 PM
Point well made. And a good laugh had. Best -
Rampant_Colt
August 24, 2008, 01:03 PM
According to the poll - HK > Glock
I agree..
HKFan9
August 24, 2008, 01:34 PM
A Glock 21 brand new goes for 550-600, I paid 700 out the door for my brand new USP, there's no need to justify $100 extra IMO. Glocks perform well and fine, but the extra attention to looks, fit, feel, and accuracy, not to mention the recoil reduction system which I was surprised by, is worth the added cost.
The Terminator
August 24, 2008, 01:43 PM
HKFan9,
That is the most articulate and well said support of the HK that I have seen in this thread. No smarmy name calling, inuendo, or defense of product at all cost. Well said!
vox rationis
August 24, 2008, 02:09 PM
HKFan9,
That is the most articulate and well said support of the HK that I have seen in this thread. No smarmy name calling, inuendo, or defense of product at all cost. Well said!
I agree :)
But ultimately it is like many say: both guns offer acceptable reliability and accuracy, so from a purely practical mechanical point of view one can't go wrong.
And again like most say, one then just has to decide what design features are more desirable and fit better for the person, as an individual, and decide which gun is best.
But of course that would make for few posts around here, so here we are haggling over the fun details :D
HKFan9
August 24, 2008, 02:09 PM
:rolleyes:
I'm just saying I'm not a Glock hater, I'm still toying with the idea of getting the 20 in 10mm, but whats stopping me isn't the pistol, its the ammo cost. Glocks and HK's do the same job, if one does it cheaper than that's the reason the market is flooded with them and kudos to Glock.
9x19
August 24, 2008, 04:48 PM
Like Hi Point owners claiming that Glock owners are snobs that grossly over payed just for the Glock name, when they could have had a solid reliable performer at a much cheaper price, with a lifetime warranty to boot!
OK, there's really no need to start picking on Socrates! :p
vox rationis
August 24, 2008, 10:15 PM
OK, there's really no need to start picking on Socrates!
:D...but you know..I think Socrates has his beautiful revolvers that I seem to recall cost him an arm AND a leg! :D
9x19
August 24, 2008, 11:54 PM
An arm and a leg?
No wonder he's so cranky! :D
Firepower!
August 25, 2008, 12:39 AM
I understand that with little more dollars you get HK. That does not certify that HK is better. In fact, I think its over prices and complicated pistol prone to failures in dirty environment.
Glock is superior because it does everything that HK does for less, and its more reliable and simple.
AUTO KIT
It does not go on Hk, but on glock you have a switch installed to make it rapid fire. Goes very well with the extended magazine.
I have P2000 and thus have some reservations since it FTF a few time in three year, whereas no failures on G19 for 18 years.
HKFan9
August 25, 2008, 01:15 AM
So you made a Glock a full auto? Your explanations so far of the "auto kit" is a switch to rapid fire, kinda vague. My trigger finger makes my USP "rapid fire" whenever I'd like.:confused:
I have heard full auto Glocks don't stand up too well due to its inability to take the abuse of all the heat. No personal experience here, I'm not a tacticool mall ninja enough to require a full auto handgun.(wink wink) If someone needs full auto capability a sub machine gun is probably the best for center fire pistol calibers. Than you enter into the world where HK really does reign supreme in my eyes.
As far as saying the Glock is more reliable than an HK you have no data to back that. One can't reach a conclusion w/o proper data. The two tests most used on this forum are the very bias Glock torture test floating around on the internet. The second being Larry Vicker's test where HK out preformed Glock. Also you have our very own Strumwhatever great videos that show limp wristing tests where Glocks seem to fail at. Point is these arguments never end and new threads keep getting created for the same arguments. I've seen HK's jam and I've seen Glocks jam. I've seen a lot more Glocks jam but I would say that's because 2 different reasons 1) a lot more Glocks around than HK's 2) the inexperienced owners of Glocks (not all owners you know the ones I'm talking about) who bought it due to their favorite cRAP (c intended) song and doesn't know anything about firearms.
A firearm is a tool and everyone has their preference. Personally I like owning an HK USP and standing out a little bit more from the flocks of glocks (sweet rhyme I know - cRAP Star in the making) but to each his own.
9x19
August 25, 2008, 09:58 AM
The two tests most used on this forum are the very bias Glock torture test floating around on the internet. The second being Larry Vicker's test...
Personally, I doubt the FBI went into their Field Suitability trials with a serious bias. :rolleyes:
HKFan9
August 25, 2008, 04:27 PM
Where is the FBI test that compares Glock to HK reliability? I've never seen it.
The Terminator
August 25, 2008, 04:32 PM
Here is a little about it. I could find no hard data.
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=899032
HKFan9
August 25, 2008, 05:39 PM
Interesting, it'd be nice if someone had more details though. Also would be nice to read the Homeland security test where someone on that forum said HK n Sig "won". Like I said though they all do the same thing. I don't think anyone of us will be crawling through the sand and mud while concealing. I stated earlier my HK cost me maybe $100 more than what the Glock is retailing for, and looks, fit, and feel (which may not be important) make that difference worth wile IMO.
HK123
August 25, 2008, 07:04 PM
That statement is 100% conjecture based on one single test of one single gun. Fail.
Actually no, there is NO proof either way to say that one is inherently more reliable. I do know that the USP received much more thorough factory testing trials before production because it was to be intended for direct Military contracts with strict requirements.
Other than that you can't say one is more reliable unless you put a million rounds down range with each. That being said, there are a few pros in the industry that will swear up and down that a Glock in anything other than 9mm is a waste.
9x19
August 25, 2008, 07:37 PM
Reports from the sand-box give the Glock high marks... I haven't heard from anyone over there with a H&K. :D
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b175/pb9x19/Fun/GlockinAfgan.jpg
9x19
August 25, 2008, 07:42 PM
...there are a few pros in the industry that will swear up and down that a Glock in anything other than 9mm is a waste.
Thank goodness there are millions of Glock owners who know better! :D
HKFan9
August 25, 2008, 08:46 PM
I believe I read somewhere HK stopped issuing guns for forces in Iraq. I'm pretty sure Black Water got in trouble or something.
edit found it: http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/02/heckler-koch-br.html
HK123
August 25, 2008, 08:49 PM
Thank goodness there are millions of Glock owners who know better!
From a sample of one.
Countless numbers of students come through Larry Vickers' and Ken Hackathorn's classes. They are the 2 guys that I know for sure will recommend a Glock in 9mm to someone who is asking if they're good, but any other caliber no way. They have good reason, they see more stoppages and breakages with .40 and .45 Glocks than the 9mm counterparts which are largely reliable.
Reports from the sand-box give the Glock high marks... I haven't heard from anyone over there with a H&K.
They are all 9mm variants too I bet. Yes ppl use HKs, in fact German troops carry them. But then how often do you hear about people actually using pistols in combat?
Glockeroo
August 26, 2008, 12:04 AM
Get the Glock.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 11:27 AM
A sample of one? Do you mean Vickers? He seems to be your only reference. :D
Ever been to a GSSF match?
Ever been to an IDPA match?
Ever been to an LFI class?
There are lots of folks, shooting lots of Glocks, in lots of chamberings without any issues... so trying to push the notion that only 9mm Glocks are worth owning is pure hogwash... whether it comes from you or Larry Vickers. :rolleyes:
HKFan9
August 26, 2008, 11:59 AM
From my experience watching IDPA matches there are a lot of folks jamming glocks as well. :) Everything will jam eventually, its only a mechanical devise made by man not god, I know Glockeroo, your God is Gaston and I'm sorry.
HK123
August 26, 2008, 03:25 PM
A sample of one? Do you mean Vickers? He seems to be your only reference.
:rolleyes:
Vickers sees HUNDREDS of samples of Glocks in his classes. Out of those he notes stoppages and failures and his own personal experience with them as well. That is the basis for his opinion. It's much more respected than anyone who just posts on the internet who only owns ONE gun out of the many produced. Yours included in that too.
Dobe
August 26, 2008, 04:08 PM
If I'm going plastic, it will be HK. another good selection for the same price range as the Glock is the M&P. It at least has good ergonomics.
HK123
August 26, 2008, 04:10 PM
If I'm going plastic, it will be HK. another good selection for the same price range as the Glock is the M&P. It at least has good ergonomics.
I thought about M&P when I was looking at G19s but I didn't really like the M&P trigger system. It felt ok, but I wasn't liking the reset. I hear it's somewhat easy to fix or work on, but with a Glock I could just with whatever is stock on the trigger and it was good. I will say that the M&P was smoother and would likely be more comfortable unmodified.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 05:10 PM
HK123,
Still it's one man's opinion.
You choose to believe it, I choose to defer... because my personal experience with the Glock platform in 9mm, .357Sig, .40, 10mm and .45 is quite different that you say Vickers relates.
As for only owning one gun... you now appear to have resorted to just making stuff up, perhaps it's because your facts are running thin...
Would you like to compare personal handgun histories? At last count, I was at a bit over 200... and many of them were not Glocks, although I admit the only H&K I owned was a USP .40, and that was back when the firing pins were fragile, but it left it's impression on me, and I haven't felt the need to buy any others because of it. Perhaps the 9mm would have been better? :p
My list is on the computer, I can post it if you're curious. :D
BTW: Thanks for helping me put Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn in the proper category of men to listen to, or men whose opinion needs be taken with a huge grain of salt.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 05:13 PM
HKFan,
I never said Glocks will never jam, as one of my shooting buddies locked his model 22 up tight in an IDPA practice session... with his it was reloads that were improperly constructed.
All I was saying was there are millions of Glock owners who have no trouble with other chamberings, which HK123 says Vickers disagrees with.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 05:15 PM
Dobe,
Ergonomics are in the hand of the holder... for me the 3rd generation Glocks feel like they used my hand to develop the mold. Philosophically speaking, I wouldn't walk across the street get a new S&W for free.... now I have sullied myself to handle them at the local Gander Mountain, but they didn't wow me.
Smaug
August 26, 2008, 05:40 PM
Just curious why Firepower! posted this poll if he had already made up his mind? Trolling? or is he just looking for others to affirm his decision?
The Glock cannot do anything the HK can. Try shooting them both at 25 yards without a rest, and I bet 9 of 10 people can shoot better with the HK. It simply has the better trigger. I'll bet follow up shots are faster & more accurate thanks to it having less recoil too.
I had 4 or 5 FTEs from my Glock 34. I chalk it up to break-in by me and limp-wristing by my wife. I wasn't worried about it at all.
I've never had any failures from my Ruger P90, in 11 years. Does that make it a better gun than the Glock & HK? Not really.
HK123
August 26, 2008, 05:43 PM
BTW: Thanks for helping me put Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn in the proper category of men to listen to, or men whose opinion needs be taken with a huge grain of salt.
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this forum are complete fanboys.
I mean seriously, do you know who Vickers is? Do you know that he pushed for Glock introduction for the FBI and other federal agencies? Do you know ANYTHING at all about his class? Do you know he calls it a Glock world? Do you know that he trains with, teaches with, recommends, and carries a G19 probably more than just about every handgun? No? Ok now you do.
To get right to the point here they (speaking of Hackathorn too) have much more experience with the guns than you or I. That is fact. Secondly, they see a HIGE number of people who come through their respective classes with Glocks that have issues. The most notorious are the .45 and .40sw variants. /end
There's nothing more to say. Out of THOUSANDS of guns they see they note that in the category of Glock they see the 9mm versions hold up a ton better than the others. That's a lot of lead down range in a weekend I might add. You can't argue that when it comes to their experience with real students with real Glocks and real issues with those glocks, that there is something to be learned from that.
From that sampling which is much, much more than what you'd get from any forum with all of its armchair warriors and wannabe mall ninjas.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 05:52 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how many people on this forum are complete fanboys.
HK123,
Pick a brand, they all have their followings... just like you continue to beat the drum for H&K.
I go to IDPA matches.
I go to GSSF matches.
I personally own Glocks in every caliber (except .380).
I see lots of Glocks in lots of chamberings, and in a lot of different hands. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that only the 9mm Glocks are good.
So, IF Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn believe that, and I have only your statements such is so, then their opinion differs greatly from mine.
It is my perogative to decide who I will listen to and who I will not.
You, of course are free to make that same decision. :D
I'm guessing you decided not to compare handgun experience? :p
Smaug
August 26, 2008, 05:56 PM
Well, HK123. When you start to think that everyone is an idiot but you and your heroes, maybe you think about it a bit more, and adjust your point of view.
I'm not saying that your'e an idiot or anything. But you seem to worship a few guys, and anyone who has a differing opinion is an idiot? Please. :rolleyes:
I'm sure we can learn from Mr. Vickers' experience and still retain our own opinions without instantly becoming idiots.
For instance, I would gather that 9mm Glocks are probably more reliable than 45 ACP Glocks. But what is the failure rate of the 45 ACP Glocks. To most of us, it isn't high enough to warrant notice.
Just like Ferraris are "better" cars because they perform better than most other cars in nearly every regard. Does that mean I'm an idiot if I don't want a Ferrari? I have a humble Toyota that meets my needs. Same type of thing with guns.
My own personal experience is that 9mm Glocks jam more than their 45 ACPs. But I must be an idiot for having this experience and for having the opinion that the failures are negligible.
HK123
August 26, 2008, 06:00 PM
I never said they were my heroes but they have much more experience than anyone who has posted here. Of that I am sure. Also, when they or anyone who has been in the industry and earned a name for themselves mentions they have an issue with one firearm model and they can name the specifics, then I am intent to hear it and take it to heart. I'd trust they would know better than I.
Also, point to a quote of me calling anyone an idiot in this thread. I dare you.
9x19
August 26, 2008, 06:23 PM
HK123,
Assumptions abound in your posts, but that's OK, as long as you don't demand that others fall in line and trust the statements of those whom you find credible.
For many reasons, there are lots of folks who have "been in the industry and earned a name for themselves" who would argue with what you say Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn espouse. Perhaps someday you'll have the opportunity to hear them as well. :)
Stevie-Ray
August 27, 2008, 11:25 PM
If I was paying the same for both, I'd get the HK. But in my country, I really don't think the difference in price is warranted. (Yes, I have an HK)
clu
August 28, 2008, 12:09 AM
The both cost the same to me since I am not in US. I have been very impressed with my 9s in G19, G26 and HK P2000.
then later:)
I understand that with little more dollars you get HK. That does not certify that HK is better. In fact, I think its over prices and complicated pistol prone to failures in dirty environment.
Glock is superior because it does everything that HK does for less, and its more reliable and simple.
I thought cost wasn't an issue?
I have P2000 and thus have some reservations since it FTF a few time in three year, whereas no failures on G19 for 18 years.
what happened to being very impressed with the P2000?
In response to a clarification on the AUTO KIT
AUTO KIT
It does not go on Hk, but on glock you have a switch installed to make it rapid fire. Goes very well with the extended magazine.
I think the poster might be confused with the selective fire 9mm Glock G18 with the fire select lever on the slide. As far as I know Glock nor any one else manufactures a kit to convert a Glock to burst or full auto fire, I'm not sure about the legal issues in your country, also I'm not aware of extended magazines being produced for the .45 glocks unless these are third party produced.
Sorry I dont mean to sound confrontational, I'm just very confused:o
Jager78
September 7, 2008, 06:16 PM
If cost is not a factor and you want a polymer .45
Get the new HK45 or HK45c :cool:
You will not regret it
Firepower!
September 8, 2008, 01:10 PM
Response to clu:
1. I had limited FTFs with P2000 when fired thousands of rounds through it. Thus, I still like it.
2. Glock does have 25 round mags for G21!
3. The auto kit (made in Hong Kong) can be installed on any Glock.
And there are no legal issues to that effect since I have prohibited license where I live.
Firepower!
September 23, 2008, 06:41 PM
I used glock 10mm magzine in g21. It worked.
Anyone else with thoughts on this or similar experience?
21CFA
September 28, 2008, 02:08 PM
Ninjas: ZERO. Yes, "burst", and "select-full-A" are third party components. New floor-plates make the G21 25-rd magazine into a 27-rd. Ninjas: ZERO. //// (The following is just a cutsie-pie remark based on the signature: "Make mine lean, mean, and 9x19!" To wit: "I carry a .45, so I can come out alive!"
Firepower!
February 24, 2009, 11:41 AM
at 3000 rounds mark with my 21.
No malfunction of any sort so far.
Chui
February 25, 2009, 09:45 AM
"I understand that with little more dollars you get HK. That does not certify that HK is better. In fact, I think its over prices and complicated pistol prone to failures in dirty environment.
Glock is superior because it does everything that HK does for less, and its more reliable and simple."
Then why bother us with your question???? :confused:
You're not alone in this kind of shenanigans but, really... Does it make any sense at all to ask others' opinions when you already have made yours???
Firepower!
February 25, 2009, 01:08 PM
It is never a bad idea to learn what other think on a particular issue. Just because I or some one else thinks a certain way does not make it absolute and 'the' right way.
IanS
February 25, 2009, 02:10 PM
This is straight from LAV at M4Carbine.net. A few people on that forum actually know LAV and Ken Hackathorn. Read the thread here. http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=11788&highlight=vickers
Gents
I see the old sand test I was part of years ago has stirred up a hornet's nest over on another forum - I tried to post this thread there but found out I was banned - not sure why that would be so I decided to post this here - in addition it answers several questions I get in nearly every class about Glocks- here goes;
1) IMO the Glock 19 and 17 are the best Glock's made - both are excellent pistols - I own, use, and recommend both
2) I do not recommend the G22, G23, or G21 - based on my experience these pistols have problems (breakage, won't function with rail mounted lights, etc.) and I feel there are better choices in 40 and 45
3) Glocks as a rule are not as accurate as many other service pistols - partly due to the enlarged chamber - this can be fixed with aftermarket barrels
4) I recommend 3 things for a Glock 19 or 17; good sights (Heinie, Novak, 10-8and Warren are my current favorites) , a buttplug to keep debris out of the trigger mech (cheap insurance), and my mag catch made by Tangodown. Optional but highly recommended is frame texturing by Dave Bowie (I like the finger grooves removed also)
5) They are incredibly forgiving in maintenance and lubrication - amazing
6) Incredibly simple to operate - 2 levers/buttons and 1 is optional
7) Always remember the golden rule with a Glock; keep your finger OFF the trigger until you are ready to shoot - if you don't adhere to this expect a loud noise at some point
Bottom line Glocks in 9mm are excellent pistols - they are not my first choice in other calibers however - the S&W M&P has been called a product improved Glock ; this may be true but the verdict is still out as the M&P is a relatively new handgun vs millions of Glock's in service (mostly in 9mm I might add) and S&W has a spotty record in terms of autoloading pistols - time will tell
hope this helps
Larry Vickers
www.vickerstactical.com
Again
If you have a choice, and many people do not, I can't for the life of me see why anyone would choose a .40 Glock over a 9mm one - the G17 and 19 are excellent guns and have a fantastic track record and with the availability of inexpensive 9mm practice ammo (as compared to other calibers) as well as some very lethal 9mm JHP loadings for carry use I fail to see a down side to a 9mm flavored Glock
I have said it many times and nothing I have seen or heard has made me change my mind - if you want a Glock go with a 9mm version and stay away from the others calibers if you have that option open to you
be safe
LAV
I have a lot of respect for LAV and he is no stooge for the industry. At the same time his opinions isn't necessarily gospel. Nor would I hold anyone's opinion to be gospel. I just consider and weigh his opinions more carefully than others. He's human like everyone else. And there are other people with respected credible real world experience as well who may have different opinions as LAV. They should be heard as well.
I prefer 9mm Glocks and any pistol designed around its proprietary cartrdge. But I wouldn't feel bad if I had to use a G22 or G21. They are not as bad as some would like to characterize them. G22's and G21's have served in the holsters of millions of law enforcement for many years and recently military as well. The record for .40 and .45 Glocks have not been "perfect" but they have proven themselves to be durable and reliable enough compared to most other pistols. Just not quite as durable and reliable as the 9mm Glocks. I recently got a G21SF because it fits my wants and I heard Glock has improved them internally. But I'll always prefer 9mm Glocks because I've come to similar conclusions as LAV on my own.
Get as much info from as many sources as you can, shoot as many guns as you can, and make an informed decision for yourself. That's the best anyone can do.
Chui
February 25, 2009, 02:51 PM
It is never a bad idea to learn what other think on a particular issue. Just because I or some one else thinks a certain way does not make it absolute and 'the' right way.
You could have stated your opinion in the initial thread and asked if others' experiences mirror yours.
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