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Sigma 40 Blaster
August 8, 2008, 06:53 PM
Before reading the article PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT TRYING TO START A CALIBER WAR. I am simply asking if this story makes you re-consider a .380 as your primary SD/HD gun. NO OTHER CALIBERS are mentioned in this story so let's please leave them out. My own thoughts after the article.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2008/aug/04/woman-shoots-husband-head/

A husband and wife in town for a biker gathering got into a hotel-room squabble early Sunday that escalated steadily until she picked up his gun and shot him in the head.

Vic Cooper, 50, was treated at the scene for a grazing wound. His wife, Sharon, 48, was charged with aggravated assault.

“It’s only by the grace of God that (the bullet) didn’t enter his skull and kill him,” said Memphis police Lt. Don Crowe.

According to a police affidavit, the Coopers, who live in Nashville, got into an argument at 2:24 a.m. at the Homestead Studio Suites, 6500 Poplar.

As the squabble intensified, Sharon Cooper punched her husband in the eye and scratched his wrist.

Vic Cooper threw her to the ground and held her there.

He let her up and the fight continued in the hallway, but the door slammed, locking them out.

Vic Cooper went to front desk, got another key and started to pack his bags.

Sharon Cooper came back to the room, grabbed her husband’s .380-caliber handgun from the nightstand and shot him in the head, but rather than killing him instantly, the bullet traveled around his scalp, leaving a mole-like furrow.

He shook it off and grabbed for the gun. Another shot went off, but it didn’t hit anybody.

Vic Cooper then wrested the gun from his wife, went downstairs, and called police.

Paramedics treated him for a gunshot wound to the right side of the head, but he refused further treatment.

Sharon Cooper checked in to Jail East, where she’s being held on $20,000 bond.

My thoughts:

This article caught my attention because I'm on the Rangemaster mailing list, this situation was described and I did some searching to find the full article.

We are missing some really important info in this story. I'd like to know what gun it was (pocket gun, PPK size, or larger frame) and what brand/type of ammo was used. Also knowing the distance involved and the angle of bullet entry (straight in then deflected or just a graze wound) would make a lot of difference.

I have already altogether stopped carrying my Bersa since I got my baby M&P but if I were still carrying my Bersa as my "light duty" gun I don't think this would make me drop it and rush to go guy something bigger. If for no other reason than because there are too many important variables (I listed above) left out of the story.

So for all you .380 carriers does this article give you even the slightest pause about your self defense gun or round? Why or why not?

Please no "a _____ would have went straight through the skull" comments.

longcoldwinter
August 8, 2008, 07:21 PM
There was an article a few weeks ago where a 44 mag did the same thing.
The skull is pretty tough and good at deflecting bullets.

Dwight55
August 8, 2008, 07:23 PM
Nahh, . . . my primary is a 1911 in .45ACP, . . . that I carry virtually 99% of the time. My .380 is a Bersa Thunder.

The few times I have the .380, . . . are pretty "secure" times, . . . in "secure" locations, . . . but even then I have quite a bit of confidence in the weapon and the round.

It has been accepted by the Columbus, Ohio police dept. as the minimum caliber for off duty carry is one reason, . . . the fact that I shoot hard ball ammo is another, . . . and the overall reliability of the weapon platform itself makes me confident of it.

I train with it for head shots only, . . . shooting for an apple sized target in the dead center of the mass of the head. Seven or eight rounds in the face, head, ear, mouth, eyes, nose area ought to stop the attack on me, . . . and that is all I train for.

Would I carry it all the time as a primary? Sure I would, . . . quicker than I would a sharp stick, . . . but then again I'm just an old Navy redneck who would prefer a 1911 any day.

May God bless,
Dwight

Keltyke
August 8, 2008, 07:28 PM
Although I carry a .40 S&W (because I can), there's nothing wrong with .380 Auto for SD. Shot placement is EVERYTHING.

xrocket
August 8, 2008, 08:01 PM
... hesitate to carry either of my .380's at any time. But given a choice, I always go with my Sig 239 in .357sig if the occasion and dress allows.

First and foremost in a defensive situation, which is all I'll ever be in, placement matters most.

pgg
August 9, 2008, 04:33 AM
We have had shootings in this area that were similar. Those were 9mm and .40 S&W. Both calibers didn't penetrate the skull. They burrowed under the skin, skidded along the bone and exited the other side. I think SHOT PLACEMENT is the key to everything. even a .22 in the right spot will penetrate the cranial cavity.

Silvanus
August 9, 2008, 04:42 AM
I've read of many incidents where handgun calibers didn't penetrate the skull. It's pretty thick and you shoot it at an unfavorable angle that makes it more likely for the bullet to glance off most of the time. I wouldn't disregard the .380 in a small self-defence handgun because of this story.

obxned
August 9, 2008, 09:49 AM
Pick any handgun caliber and you can find cases where it failed.

Capt. Charlie
August 9, 2008, 11:23 AM
This is more about caliber choice than it is tactics or training. Moving to handguns.

tranks
August 9, 2008, 11:49 AM
shouldn't she be charged with attempted murder?

HK123
August 9, 2008, 11:54 AM
Well, as has been said it's not only .380 that would do this. As far as I'm concerned I don't like .380 for a defensive caliber. It's just something I don't like. Same as I do not like .40SW much either. I really would just carry a 9mm for defense. If I need more than 9mm I'll go to .357mag or right to .45acp.

That's just me.

ElectricHellfire
August 9, 2008, 12:00 PM
It does not give me any concerns.

cavediver27
August 9, 2008, 12:08 PM
For those of us who hunt deer and larger animals we have all seen some strange things happen when a bullet hits a body. Keep in mind we're talking about large caliber center fire hunting rounds that make even the largest handgun round look tiny. That this was a .380 doesn't matter, animals have survived solid hits with .300 H&H magnums and lived on.

454 gunner
August 9, 2008, 12:10 PM
He is lucky to be alive, that is for sure. The angle that the bullet struck the skull had a lot to do with why he is alive. I wonder how his hearing is doing.

hoytinak
August 9, 2008, 12:20 PM
.380 - Does this make you think twice???

Nope, I have not and will not ever feel underarmed (for a civilian CHLer) carrying my .380 LCP or even my .32 Seecamp. ;)

Gatorhugger
August 9, 2008, 12:20 PM
Skull grazing happens with magnums, with every bullet ever made. Did she stick the thing on his forehead and pull the trigger? No. She grazed him.

SO WHAT???????????????????????

This article means dump squat with a heavy stink. Why even post a story of someone getting grazed by a bullet? Like a bullet graze is unique to a 380 ????

Sturmgewehre
August 9, 2008, 12:23 PM
Does this make you question the power of a .44 Mag?

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23914454/

By Mike Celizic
TODAYShow.com contributor
updated 8:22 a.m. CT, Fri., April. 18, 2008

Emergency room doctors apologized to the 42-year-old woman who had come in for treatment for staring at her in disbelief. It wasn’t every day — in fact, it was never — that they saw somebody with a large-caliber gunshot wound between the eyes who not only was alive, but wasn’t even unconscious or seriously injured.

Call it Marie’s Miracle. As reported for TODAY by NBC’s Martin Savidge, it happened late last Saturday night, when Marie, who does not want to reveal her last name for fear of retaliation, her boyfriend and her 22-year-old daughter were driving through Tampa on their way home to Riverview, Fla., after a night out.

“We had a nice night out to the movies, got something to eat, were just rolling down the road,” she said.

In her case the bullet hit her square in the forehead, shattered into 3 pieces and each of the bullet fragments traveled around her skull then exited the side of her face.

You can watch the news story here with more info:

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/th_shot_in_face.jpg (http://s104.photobucket.com/albums/m167/tharmsen/Video/?action=view&current=shot_in_face.flv)

Zebulon
August 9, 2008, 01:19 PM
It's my belief that if you're supposed to die, you will die indeed. Right on time, under the precise circumstances you fall under. In the West, (America) our thinking is always dominated by the ideas that bigger is better, and that more is better than less. Reality is quite often the opposite. If you were around during the years of the WonderNine wars, you can relate. We've all heard the statistics about the number of people killed each year by the lowly .22 caliber. I personally knew a man who took 3 rounds of .45 hardball in the head and lived to continue his life with only short-term memory loss.
Much of what we accept as absolute truth comes from gun Forums, and Gunstore Commandos. It's difficult to sort out the truth from fiction when it comes to interest in guns. Gun Forums ARE a part of the internet...be careful what you believe.....There is always more to shooting statistics than caliber...always. The goof that walks up behind you and sticks an R&G .22 in your ear will always trump your .45 that devastates paper Bullseyes at your local Suburban Range...that would go for you .357 Sig and .45 GAP as well....:) Even if you are an accomplished Pistolero with the "right" gun...you have no control over all the other elements of a shooting......Zebulon

CGSteve8718
August 9, 2008, 01:20 PM
Agree with the others. The article needs more detailed info, but from what I gather, it was a grazing wound, which is specifically what it said.

A graze is not going to kill anyone no matter what caliber it is. He may have moved at the last moment miraculously changing the direction he was facing in relation to the bullet, at an angle or parallel to it. The question would be better suited if the bullet actually hit him in the head, or anywhere for that matter.

And yes, she should be charged with attempted murder.

Stetson 33
August 9, 2008, 01:40 PM
Doesn't bother me,that's why I'd follow up with a second shot if my target didn't go down.It's obvious she wanted to hurt him.I was always taught if you pull a handgun out out you better be committed to use it and you keep shooting until the target is down.

ElectricHellfire
August 9, 2008, 03:13 PM
It also depends on anatomical location on the skull where the bullet strikes. The forehead and rear (occipital) of the skull are much thicker than the temporal areas and the areas right behind the eyes. Just some useless information but there it is and I know because Ive dissected human cadavers. IMO head shots with handguns are tricky especially from distance. I think you are much better off trying for a vital shot in the torso or where the neck meets the body.

eldogg4life
August 9, 2008, 04:35 PM
Damn...
Thank God that woman is alive.
I do think it is only fair to consider the fact that the round did penetrate the glass before hitting her in the face. I am sure that slowed the round down substantially. Whatever the reason I am glad she is fine. I always say that gunfighting is not like target practice. Sometimes even when you hit exactly what you aim for your job is not done because the threat might not be eliminated. It gets even worst if there are multiple bad guys. In my hometown it is not uncommon to hear of criminals who had bullet resistant body armor when aprehended. A cause for consideration to some who don't carry a spare mag. The human body is resiliant.

JoeDoe22
August 9, 2008, 04:48 PM
If anything I see these stories as great reasons to aim for softer parts of the body...somewhere, ummm, I don't know...center mass maybe?

robdh51
August 9, 2008, 05:03 PM
If anything I see these stories as great reasons to aim for softer parts of the body...somewhere, ummm, I don't know...center mass maybe?
Give the man a Quipe Doll!

Kreyzhorse
August 9, 2008, 05:39 PM
Skull grazing happens with magnums, with every bullet ever made. Did she stick the thing on his forehead and pull the trigger? No. She grazed him.

SO WHAT???????????????????????


Not a second glance. It's all about shot placement and the skull is a tricky thing. I've read about .22lr and .44s doing the same thing.

.38Catt
August 9, 2008, 07:34 PM
No, it does not make me re-think the effectiveness of the .380 anymore than it makes me re-think getting shot in the head.

fisherman66
August 9, 2008, 07:43 PM
It would only make me think twice about it *IF* I chose a .380 as a bedside gun. In the CCW role it might be the best thing since the three season wool suit.

HisSoldier
August 9, 2008, 09:27 PM
There have been far too many people killed by a single shot from a .25 ACP for a story like that to effect my decisions. I carry a .380, I'd love to figure out how to carry a 1911. Just feeling that .45 under my clothes would make me feel more secure.

Sigma 40 Blaster
August 9, 2008, 10:40 PM
So far no one is swayed a bit, the story about the .44 mag was interesting.

I personally know five guys who received this story via email, one guy actually sold his P3AT the next day, one guy is shopping for a subcompact .40 (he wasn't in the market for one that I knew of before) and the others (including me) thought it was interesting but not conclusive proof that the .380 was garbage.

I will say that we all took the same training class (or took classes from the same place) and they acted on that email like it was personal advice given from the instructor (not sure that's the case).

Thanks for the responses everyone, the .380 seems alive and well for those who already hadn't written it off.

robdh51
August 9, 2008, 11:10 PM
I personally know five guys who received this story via email, one guy actually sold his P3AT the next day, one guy is shopping for a subcompact .40 (he wasn't in the market for one that I knew of before) and the others (including me) thought it was interesting but not conclusive proof that the .380 was garbage.
Don't care for the feel of the Kel-Tec, just prefer the feel of my Beretta Cheetah, but this story was no reason to dump the P3AT.
I will say that we all took the same training class (or took classes from the same place) and they acted on that email like it was personal advice given from the instructor (not sure that's the case).
Never ceases to amaze me how some people react to forwarded emails as if they're prognostications from on high.

I especially like the ones that predict the receiver will get something for free if they just "forward this message to 10 people within 10 minutes". One of the better examples of that and how it caused trouble for a company is what happened to Ericsson. Visit Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/nothing/ericsson.asp) a great "urban legend" debunking site for the complete details.

PSP
August 9, 2008, 11:16 PM
.380 - Does this make you think twice???

No.

denfoote
August 9, 2008, 11:24 PM
SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT SHOT PLACEMENT!!!!!

This guy was lucky his wife was a terrible shot!!!

Yeah, I'll still carry my PPK/S. ;)

Stevie-Ray
August 9, 2008, 11:44 PM
So for all you .380 carriers does this article give you even the slightest pause about your self defense gun or round? Why or why not?I don't carry a .380 yet; I carry a .32 all the time. Most times during hot weather, it is also my primary. This doesn't change a thing. I'm still getting a Ruger LCP, eventually.

JohnKSa
August 10, 2008, 12:20 AM
Nope, not a bit.

Skulls are pretty sturdy. If they're not hit square, virtually any bullet will bounce off. Manfred Von Richthofen, the Red Baron, was hit in the head by a machine gun bullet in air combat but it glanced off since it wasn't a direct hit. It knocked him out temporarily but he revived in time to regain control of his airplane and landed without further incident although he suffered from headaches and nausea from that point forward in his life.

It's not about caliber, it's about placement.

PeterGunn
August 10, 2008, 12:53 AM
A very common occurance... with all calibers. The angle of the bullet trajectory is crucial, but even with that factor considered the skull is not an easy thing to penetrate.

Mike H
August 10, 2008, 03:04 AM
Up close and personal, the .380 can cause a lot of damage.

Socrates
August 10, 2008, 04:38 AM
There is a point where the caliber becomes more forgiving for human skull penetration.
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/VanHornLott450n2/LottVHleft.jpg

http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/VanHornLott450n2/GS510VANHORNWEB.jpg

NEVER bring a pistol to a gunfight. The pistols purpose is to get back to your rifle.

If this fails, hopefully your pistol caliber will be one of these:
http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localhost/albums/f99/Socrates28/Model%2083%20FA%20475/DSC_0059FA83frontshotbulletscylinde.jpg

Desertscout1
August 10, 2008, 09:07 AM
That article means zip. I haven't read every response on this thread but the same thing could have happened with any caliber in existence if the angle is right. Our PD had to shoot a guy here 2 years ago. The cop was using a .357 SIG, He shot 4 times, 3 in the thoracic cavity and one in the head. The BG died later in the hospital... from one of the thoracic cavity hits, NOT the head shot.

There's also a guy walking around today that was shot 7 times with a .45 ACP and one of those was in the head. All it did was put his right eye out. In fact, he was just in the paper again last week for beating his girlfriend. His times coming I reckon

Caeser2001
August 10, 2008, 09:26 AM
shouldn't she be charged with attempted murder?

you would think, I hear all the time on the news about shootings and as long as somebody isn't dead they are always and only, well according to the media, charged with aggravated assault and never attempted homicide.

JohnKSa
August 10, 2008, 01:15 PM
There's also a guy walking around today that was shot 7 times with a .45 ACP and one of those was in the head. All it did was put his right eye out. In fact, he was just in the paper again last week for beating his girlfriend. His times coming I reckonThat reminded me of a story related to me by an ex-LEO acquaintance of mine. A large fellow in the jurisdiction was a mean drunk. Some LE's responded to a call regarding a disturbance caused by said fellow during a drunk. Things got nasty and one of them ended up shooting him in the forehead with a .38 service revolver. The bullet failed to penetrate the skull and merely enraged the man. The cops decided that since shooting him wasn't particularly effective it was time to flee the scene.

His wife/girlfriend eventually killed him with a shotgun during one of his rampages.

MemphisBob
August 10, 2008, 04:04 PM
The people who think the assailant in the OP should be charged with attempted murder don't understand law enforcement very well. Aggravated assault is undisputable. Attempted murder is not. She could have meant to miss her victim entirely or kill him. That doesn't matter. She DID assault him and inflict bodily harm which could have resulted in serious injury or death.

I still feel better with any carry weapon of any caliber than not having one should the need arise.

RsqVet
August 10, 2008, 04:15 PM
Have seen similar happen with the 38 and 40 cal with duty ammo.

It happens....

Stone Cold
August 10, 2008, 07:02 PM
I've never been a .380 fan. Seems to me, during the winter, thick clothing could ruin even a center of mass shot. Sure, it's better than a sharp stick, but not much of a primary SD round. Yeah, assasins favor the 22 LR, but the victim rarely anticipates it and it's up close and very deliberate. If the report were the same, a 45 would be favored. Shot placement is all well and good, but when TSHTF, the lead can fly in both directions. I'm getting a round off first, as accurately as I can and still be first. I'm also happier if mine is the .45, and his is the .380.

ragwd
August 10, 2008, 07:41 PM
No, because I would never attempt a head shot, center mass is softer. I carry my .380 in summertime for easier concealment but in the winter when we all wear heavier clothing I carry a .45.

riddleofsteel
August 10, 2008, 07:44 PM
Two to the center, then two to the pelvis. If you don't stop them it will at least slow them down so you can get away.

:rolleyes:

alistaire
August 10, 2008, 07:57 PM
.380 ACP will remain in use as a carry gun caliber until someone makes a pocket gun in .600 Nitro Express. (A BLANK .600 Nitro Express is probably adequate for self-defence). :-)

nasa1
August 10, 2008, 08:34 PM
No I will always carry my .380, it is a back up to my 9mm which I have with me all the time.

CajunBass
August 11, 2008, 05:47 AM
I don't have a .380, but that wouldn't stop me from carrying one. I believe that people who get shot tend to stop what they were doing that caused them to get shot in the first place.

The fact that there are exceptions to that rule is why they invented repeaters.

DrLaw
August 11, 2008, 07:20 AM
I've seen the results of a .32 ACP going through one side and out the other of a skull, and a .12 guage pressed against the head not going out the other side. There is no real rhyme or reason to what happens with shooting. If there was any certainty to it, we would not need high capacity repeating firearms for hunting or self-defense, would we.

This story does not give me any pause at all. Two reasons. First, I live in Illinois where honest citizens are not trusted with concealed carry, but gangbangers carry with impunity, and, Second, I'd have emptied the magazine if my life was in danger, not just one shot! :rolleyes:

The Doc, who regularly carried a .380 or .22 off-duty, is out now. :cool:

45Marlin carbine
August 11, 2008, 07:53 AM
I've shot enough holes through stacked and spaced 3/4" ext plywood doing bullet tests to know that the .380acp is not quite up there with .38spcl but close enough to be hurtful.
W.B. Hickok favored the Colt .36 which is equivalent to .380acp+P. he got good results. one outlaw on a rampage he shot he shot him in the right side of his head the ball traveled through exiting other side. he once shot and cut 5 men (Trading post fight)with 2 .44 and 1 .36 slugs in him and several slices on him.

Moe Howard
August 11, 2008, 07:56 AM
I'm still good with .380. I don't have one anymore but would not hesitate to pick up another in the future. I was watching an episode of Deranged last week and two of David Berkowitz victims took .44 rounds to the head and survived. In a gun rag back in the 90s there was an article where a woman shot a grizzly bear in the eye with a .22 and killed it. The way I see it,,no such thing as a magic bullet, especially in a handgun.