To LEM or not to LEM...that is the question

[IMTHDUKE]

I am going to get an HK P2000sk. Ony question is what trigger to get. I have heard pro and cons on the LEM. What is the upside and the downside to a LEM over the DA/SA trigger? Would rather know from folks who actually have one....thanks.

[Smaug]

Is LEM what HK is calling their DAO trigger?

If so, the only pro I can think of is consistent trigger pull.

[bojack2575]

LEM= Law Enforcement Modification = Single Action

[hoytinak]

I LOVE the LEM on my P2000SK. It's very consistent and smooth pull, the factory was 9 lbs (IIRC) but I changed the hammer spring on mine and now it's right a 5 lbs. In fact I like the LEM so much I'm changing the DA/SA trigger on my USPc to LEM soon.

[HK123]

LEM= Law Enforcement Modification = Single Action

The LEM is a double action trigger. The hammer is always partially cocked even when it's not sticking out of the slide (once you rack the slide that is). You have a smooth first pull of 8lbs or 4.5lbs. Then you have a short reset. You do not have to release the trigger fully. After the first shot the gun is cocked and you can fire it by simply releasing the trigger until the reset. The hammer will not recess back into the slide. If you release the trigger fully it will recess.

[Erik]

LEMs, unlike traditional DAOs, do not have one trigger pull I'll take a shot at explaining:

There are two hammer positions, and two trigger positions, and three possible trigger pulls.

The LEM hammer is a two-piece unit with an internal cocking piece separate from the external hammer.

Insert magazine and chamber a round. The hammer is in the rebound position (slightly extended from the frame) with the trigger all the way forward. From here the shooter encounters a two-trigger pull: a light stage of appromimately 3-3.5 pounds followed by a heavier one of either 4.5-5.5 pounds or 7.5-8.5 pounds depending on the variant. (Both distances are approximately a half and inch with the first one slightly longer.)

A shot is fired, which cycles the slide. As the trigger is allowed forward it resets at approximately half way forward; there will be an audible click. If the shooter decides to pull the trigger at this stage a half length, consistent trigger pull of either 4.5-5.5 pounds or 7.5-8.5 pounds depending on cvariant is met.

If the shooter returns the trigger all the way forward the full length, two-stage trigger pull is encountered. (See above.)

If the shooter drops the hammer on a round and it fails to fire, the hammer will remain all the way forward. The "second strike" trigger pull is a full length, consistent trigger pull of approximately 12 pounds.

Practically speaking, the shooter has to decide whether to work the reset or not. Beginners usually opt not to, experienced shooters usually opt to do so. That allows room to "grow" into the gun, by the way, and I've seen people do so nicely. The explanation of the LEM makes it sound much more complicated that it is for the end user.

(Quoted weights are to spec. Some report slight variances.)

[ak_balla]

I have been considering this for my USP .45. They do make the kit for the fullsize correct?

Does the LEM mod make my de-cocker not function?

[Playboypenguin]

If I wanted an LEM style trigger I would just save money and get a Glock. I bought the H&K because of the added benefit of a true SA/SA hammer fired pistol. :)

[hoytinak]

They do make the kit for the fullsize correct?


Yep they make them for the fullsize and compacts...look around on HKpro they pop up there from time to time.

Does the LEM mod make my de-cocker not function?

Yep, does away with the de-cocker.

[HK123]

If I wanted an LEM style trigger I would just save money and get a Glock. I bought the H&K because of the added benefit of a true SA/SA hammer fired pistol.

The LEm is not a Glock clone trigger as you know. It is designed for LEOs who have to carry a pistol in double action (cannot do cocked and locked). It offers a constant pull each time instead of the double action first pull and single action subsequent pulls. Most shooters can learn the one pull and master it more easily than having to learn both.

[Playboypenguin]

The LEm is not a Glock clone trigger as you know. It is designed for LEOs who have to carry a pistol in double action (cannot do cocked and locked). It offers a constant pull each time instead of the double action first pull and single action subsequent pulls. Most shooters can learn the one pull and master it more easily than having to learn both.
I know what it is...and I consider it a gimmick that serves little true function and is nothing new. It is no different than a Kahr trigger or even that much different than any long pull DAO. I bought the P2000SK because of the DA/SA hammer fired feature. Without it the gun is just a run of the mill polymer gun.

[HK123]

I know what it is...and I consider it a gimmick that serves little true function and is nothing new. It is no different than a Kahr trigger or even that much different than any long pull DAO. I bought the P2000SK because of the DA/SA hammer fired feature. Without it the gun is just a run of the mill polymer gun.

You obviously don't understand it's purpose. LEO were interested in HK pistols, they can't carry cocked and locked and MOST shooters can master one pull more quickly than 2 different pulls in one trigger. That is the only reason the LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) was designed. They got a contract for it. If HK never got a contract for DAO they would probably not even manufacture it. HK is like that sometimes.

[Playboypenguin]

You obviously don't understand it's purpose.
I understand it perfectly. Like I said, it is no better a trigger option than the Kahr's use. It is just a simple long pull DAO trigger. I think a DA/SA with a decocker is much more versatile and useful.

I also think the trigger pull of a Glock is better suited for quick use in a combat situation.

[Chui]

Uhhh, the LEM is NOT just a True Double Action pistol. The initial 2/3 of the pull is nothing - unlike the pull on a True Double Action. If the trigger reset were shorter it would be the "ultimate" pull for many who fear the 1911's trigger and abhor the Double Action Only Revolver.

[Playboypenguin]

Uhhh, the LEM is NOT just a True Double Action pistol.
Neither are most semi-auto DAO triggers. Usually they use a partially cocked firing mechanism and a seer.

[Chui]

What should be obvious is that when comparing the LEM to a DAO or DA design there is IMMEDIATE resistance to the trigger pull on the latter two. The LEM is easier to shoot well. The resistance only comes when you're "on the sear". I'd merely ask for shorter trigger reset; but I'm hard to please.

[HK123]

It is just a simple long pull DAO trigger

It is not...the reset is not at the beginning of the pull as with many DAO pistols.

[Playboypenguin]

It is not...the reset is not at the beginning of the pull as with many DAO pistols.
The reset is not at the beginning with many long pull DAO pistols. Also, what real benefit does the extra travel give? In my opinion it gives none and takes away the versatility of the guns design.

You opinion may vary, but in my eyes, this is just a marketing gimmick which was made to appease nervous police officials and feed into the fears that some people have who cannot seem to keep their fingers off the trigger of a loaded gun. :)

[vox rationis]

You opinion may vary, but in my eyes, this is just a marketing gimmick which was made to appease nervous police officials and feed into the fears that some people have who cannot seem to keep their fingers off the trigger of a loaded gun.

But once you put your finger on the trigger to shoot the idea with LEM is that it reduces the likely hood of an unwanted discharge if you realize after all that it is not appropriate to shoot. Now of course the finger ought not be on the trigger unless the target is identified and the decision to shoot has been made, but one can argue that LEM just gives you a little extra safety factor if the initial decision to shoot might have been erroneous. But if the lead starts flying, if you release only slightly, to reset only, then the gun magically turns into a SA for superior shooting ability. With a DAO you would be stuck with a much heavier DAO pull for each shot.

I prefer cocked and locked SA, but LEM is much better than DAO in my opinion. And I suppose that its advantage over DA/SA is that the first pull is much lighter than the DA pull and that it also obviates the need for a decocker. Just release the trigger and it goes away from SA into the longer trigger pull immediately and simply.

[Chui]

You are correct, Son of Vlad & Erik. I don't think the person arguing has thought this out thoroughly which would include extensive firing the two variants that he's trying to speak intelligently about.

[Playboypenguin]

You are correct, Son of Vlad & Erik. I don't think the person arguing has thought this out thoroughly which would include extensive firing the two variants that he's trying to speak intelligently about.
Actually Vlad said it perfectly when he said ..."Now of course the finger ought not be on the trigger unless the target is identified and the decision to shoot has been made"

So in other words, it is only valuable to people who are undertrained and inexperienced when they make the intial mistake of putting their finger on a trigger when it was not required. And the fact of the matter is, in that situation, a stronger DA pull would actual serve that purpose better and then give a better chance at of an accurate follow up shot from a nice quick SA pull. :)

[vox rationis]

So in other words, it is only valuable to people who are undertrained and inexperienced when they make the intial mistake of putting their finger on a trigger when it was not required. And, the fact of the matter is, in that situation a stronger DA pull would actual serve that purpose better and then give a better chance at of an accurate follow up shot from a nice quick SA pull.

OK, well here's one that could have used the benefit of a 20lb DA pull :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-yT5NC4cPM

Anyway, you make a good point about DA/SA, but the criticism most people have about DA/SA is that the transition from DA to SA is too extreme, causing poor shooting performance, hence requiring more training time to master. The LEM is an attempt at having some of the extra safety factor that a DA entails, but with a much easier system to shoot and master overall. Anyway, it is definitely not for everyone.

[Playboypenguin]

Anyway, you make a good point about DA/SA, but the criticism most people have about DA/SA is that the transition from DA to SA is too extreme, causing poor shooting performance, hence requiring more training time to master.
That is true for sure. That is why the LEM might be good for LEO's who do not take the time to learn to master their weapons but do not serve a real need for civilians.

I have no real issue with the transition. My mindset is the DA is very safe for carry and I can get off a quick shot without racking a slide and then get off a very quick and more accurate second shot. Plus, if I have the time I can always thumb cock the hammer. :)

[vox rationis]

It is all about trigger prep and if you can prep that DA trigger well and get that shot off as soon as you get front sight on target, and transition to the SA well, then I could see why you'd think the LEM is superfluous.

Here's another "fun" one, where keeping the finger off the trigger, and a stout DA pull would have been good :o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTUHkyUTYok&feature=related

(OK, I gotta get off the you tube)

[Playboypenguin]

That first one is a perfect example of how not to handle a gun. The guy was on the ground and under control and she chose to keep her finger on the trigger. I love that video. :D

[vox rationis]

That first one is a perfect example of how not to handle a gun. The guy was on the ground and under control and she chose to keep her finger on the trigger. I love that video.

Yep, That dude is one lucky SOB..why with Officer Fifette on the job :eek:

[HammerBite]

Erik ---

Thank you for your explanation of the operating characteristics of the LEM system. I have suspected that it was a variation of the LDA system of Para-Ordnance and the triple action system of Daewoo, but wasn't sure.


Everyone else ---

Here is the raison d'etre for the LEM and similar systems, as I see it:

In the beginning there was the Colt 1911, or something very much like it. It was determined that for maximum safety and speed of operation the pistol should be carried cocked and locked.
Some users thought that the cocked hammer looked too scary, or that they would be too inept to operate the safety in a time of crisis. They didn't want to carry a cocked gun, yet they also wanted to be able to get the gun into operation quickly without manually cocking or racking the slide.
So, the firearm industry, primarily in the form of Fritz Walther, came up with the DA/SA pistol. Behold! You carry it with the hammer down. When you want to shoot, just pull the trigger.
But some users were upset by the transition from the DA first shot to the subsequent SA shots.
So, the firearms industry came up with the DAO pistol. Behold! You carry it with the hammer down. When you want to shoot, just pull the trigger. Every shot will use the same trigger pull, and, as a bonus, there is no troublesome decocker to mess with.
But some users were still unhappy. Their delicate trigger fingers just couldn't cope with compressing the mainspring during a DA trigger stroke. They jerked their shots all over the place and couldn't hit anything.
So, Daewoo, Para-Ordnance, Heckler & Koch and maybe someone I don't know about came up with schemes whereby your trigger finger only has to fight a wimpy little spring to bring the hammer back before the sear is lifted and releases a cocking piece, which drives the hammer forward into the firing pin.
But some users were still unhappy! "THAT'S NOT A TRUE DOUBLE ACTION," they bellowed. Sheesh, you just can't win!


Thus endeth HammerBite's Concise Evolution of Hammer-Fired Semiautomatic Pistols. Any sarcasm you may have detected was intentional.

[HK123]

That is true for sure. That is why the LEM might be good for LEO's who do not take the time to learn to master their weapons but do not serve a real need for civilians.

Some people like to have a constant pull each time, vs 2 different ones. An added benefit is that the DA/SA trigger in most HKs (not includng those with a match trigger or some custom trigger work) is pretty gritty and not very good overall(lots of stacking). The LEM is very smooth.

[vox rationis]

Everyone else ---

Here is the raison d'etre for the LEM and similar systems, as I see it:

* In the beginning there was the Colt 1911, or something very much like it. It was determined that for maximum safety and speed of operation the pistol should be carried cocked and locked.
* Some users thought that the cocked hammer looked too scary, or that they would be too inept to operate the safety in a time of crisis. They didn't want to carry a cocked gun, yet they also wanted to be able to get the gun into operation quickly without manually cocking or racking the slide.
* So, the firearm industry, primarily in the form of Fritz Walther, came up with the DA/SA pistol. Behold! You carry it with the hammer down. When you want to shoot, just pull the trigger.
* But some users were upset by the transition from the DA first shot to the subsequent SA shots.
* So, the firearms industry came up with the DAO pistol. Behold! You carry it with the hammer down. When you want to shoot, just pull the trigger. Every shot will use the same trigger pull, and, as a bonus, there is no troublesome decocker to mess with.
* But some users were still unhappy. Their delicate trigger fingers just couldn't cope with compressing the mainspring during a DA trigger stroke. They jerked their shots all over the place and couldn't hit anything.
* So, Daewoo, Para-Ordnance, Heckler & Koch and maybe someone I don't know about came up with schemes whereby your trigger finger only has to fight a wimpy little spring to bring the hammer back before the sear is lifted and releases a cocking piece, which drives the hammer forward into the firing pin.
* But some users were still unhappy! "THAT'S NOT A TRUE DOUBLE ACTION," they bellowed. Sheesh, you just can't win!


Thus endeth HammerBite's Concise Evolution of Hammer-Fired Semiautomatic Pistols. Any sarcasm you may have detected was intentional.

That's pretty good!

[Threefeathers]

I have 3 H K's and all are now LEM. Prepare to practice to perfect it. Once done is is the fastest double action you can imagine. It took me nearly 300 rounds of 9mm to get the 'keep the trigger depressed untill you get the sight back on target then let up a bitty bit.' But now it comes naturally. AZ DPS officers carry the H K LEM and those I shoot with have the draw and technique down so well it's great.

[HK123]

It took me nearly 300 rounds of 9mm to get the 'keep the trigger depressed untill you get the sight back on target then let up a bitty bit.'

That's how I fire Glocks too. Hold the trigger until I get target lined up again.

[IGO1320]

I personally like the LEM for CCW, I always carry and when I work I do a lot of bending, twisting, leaning over, and rubbing against objects. I have posted this before but, I have twice managed to knock the safety off on a DA/SA. LEM's prevent this from being an issue. Follow up shots are accomplished by merely allowing the trigger to return back about .1". I like to draw the gun and as I raise it to the target "stage" the trigger, treating the gun like a SA. I am not trying to say this is the platform to end all platform's, use what you like, but for me I like it the best and apparently I am not alone. Another feature is that I do not have to worry about "catching" the trigger on anything, causing in example "glock leg". Have a good day.

[Playboypenguin]

I have twice managed to knock the safety off on a DA/SA
Just curious, why do you need a safety on a DA/SA pistol? I can understand on a SAO like a 1911, but not a DA/SA. :)

[HKFan9]

I agree with PBP on this one, I didn't care for the LEM. I like the DA/SA trigger on my USP. I can carry it cocked and locked, or DA. Personally I carry it DA and locked, because I practice with both pulls and a manual safety has always been ingrained in my head. My groups barely suffer between the two pulls I don't know why people have trouble with it. I figure upon drawing I have the longer DA pull between me and shooting a first shot, and this seems critical. I train to keep my finger on the side of the gun like everyone else but in a stressful scenario I liked the added safety of the longer and harder pull. In the event I do need to pull I practice that DA pull and then after the first shot, I have a nice smooth short SA pull for faster follow up shots.

[HammerBite]

It has occurred to me that my comment about "delicate trigger fingers" in post #27 was perhaps edgier than it should have been. There are some people who, for medical or physiological reasons, are genuinely unable to deal with a heavy DA trigger pull, even with practice. For these people, systems such as the LEM or LDA can satisfy a very real need.

[HK123]

It has occurred to me that my comment about "delicate trigger fingers" in post #27 was perhaps edgier than it should have been. There are some people who, for medical or physiological reasons, are genuinely unable to deal with a heavy DA trigger pull, even with practice. For these people, systems such as the LEM or LDA can satisfy a very real need.

One such malady that could warrant the need for a lighter and smoother pull is arthritis.

[Playboypenguin]

One such malady that could warrant the need for a lighter and smoother pull is arthritis.
And the longer pull does what for someone with arthritis or other ailments? What factor of this trigger option serves there condition better than any other option?

It is a harder pull than a SA pull...and longer. Seems to me harder and longer would not be good for such conditions and that a good SA pull with a shorter reset would serve their needs better. :)

[HK123]

And the longer pull does what for someone with arthritis or other ailments? What factor of this trigger option serves there condition better than any other option?

You can't pull the standard DA on the trigger so the LEM is a viable alternative. Also the pull can be 4.5lbs which is exactly the same as the SA on the standard HK DA/SA.

[HammerBite]

It is a harder pull than a SA pull...and longer. Seems to me harder and longer would not be good for such conditions and that a good SA pull with a shorter reset would serve their needs better.
First, the subject of this thread is the LEM trigger, which is a DA trigger on a hammer-fired pistol. Thus, the discussion should probably be about what advantage is afforded by the LEM trigger to someone who prefers a DA trigger on a hammer-fired pistol. Some people don't like SA pistols, even people who may have damaged or weak fingers.

Second, go back and read post #6. The first stage of the trigger pull (when the hammer is drawn back) is 3-3.5 pounds, which is a lot lighter than any DA hammer-fired pistol or revolver I own, and I own a bunch of them.

People have pointed out why some others might like the LEM trigger. Why does that bother you?

[Playboypenguin]

First, the subject of this thread is the LEM trigger, which is a DA trigger on a hammer-fired pistol. Thus, the discussion should probably be about what advantage is afforded by the LEM trigger to someone who prefers a DA trigger on a hammer-fired pistol. Some people don't like SA pistols, even people who may have damaged or weak fingers.

Go back and repeat the OP. It asks what are the advantages of an LEM trigger are over the DA/SA. I do not see any advantage at all for an average shooter. The benefit of a lighter DA pull do not outweigh the negatives of losing both the light and accurate SA function and the strong DA pull. :)

Some people have suggested the that LEM trigger is better for the infirm and the incompetent. I guess I do not fall into either of those categories yet...but obviously some people do. :D

[HK123]

Some people have suggested the that LEM trigger is better for the infirm and the incompetent.

For HK, their DA trigger is horrible. I mean HORRIBLE! Even their match trigger is pretty bad compared to a say a SIGSauer,

So the LEM fits in for people who want a DA pull that doesn't suck. :D

[vox rationis]

In my USP's the DA pull is not great, and I agree that Sig generally has absolutely superior DA actions typically, but the HK DA from half cock is tolerable to me, especially with the full size. If you pull from full hammer down however, well that's not so fun. But I practice a lot of dry firing with my full size USP starting from hammer fully down, and its made my trigger finger one buff sucker! Good for trigger control training, now just about any trigger out there is a girly man trigger to me :D (I do carry C&L though by the way :D)

[Chui]

I've found I scored better with an LEM P2K than with the DA version of same. Why? First shot was easier... therefore, the first shot was where it should be and it was put there quickly. So I have little patience for theorizing on the topic. Is it better than a SA? Hell no. Is it better than the trigger on, say, an M&P or Glock? Depends on who you're asking. For someone who is relatively new I'd recommend it. For someone who wished for a very fast pistol I'd opt for the Glock and M&P.

DA makes little sense. If I needed a safety then I'd put it on the frame. If I needed a long, heavy pull I'd opt for a revolver. It's a bastard. JMB had it correct over one hundred years ago.

[HK123]

I've played with the LEM extensively and own the standard DA/SA P30 and HK45s. To me the LEM is a vastly superior carry gun simply because I can get the first shot on target every time without fail. With the DA/SA the long stiff pull is a bit too much for me in that the first shot goes wide of POA. In SA it's right on for me. With the LEM you have a lighter than DA first pull and if you shoot from the reset, it's not quite a SA but it beats most DAO which have to reset at the front again. However, the HK45 is better than the P30 (just based on what I own). I also have fired a USP which was worse than both in stock form. However, it is easy to reduce the weight and whatnot.

I sent my P30 out to get some trigger work done. The claim was a ~30% reduction in DA and SA pull weight (standard 11.5lbs and 4.5lbs respectively) and a creep reduction in SA. This would be a 100% inprovement over the stock P30 trigger IMO. I'll have to wait and see. Rest assured though, when the LEM comes out for the HK P30 I am going to be putting it on.

As Vlad pointed out, you can work and practice so that it becomes a non-issue. This is what I am doing but at the same time I can appreciate a smoother, more consistent pull in the LEM.