Don't shoot him with his head down (??)

[JohnKSa]

I was watching Jim Shockey's hunting show the other day and heard this command being given by different guides on two occasions. On both occasions a hunter was getting ready to shoot a large whitetail buck and the guide told the hunter not to shoot while the deer's head was down.

I've never heard anything like this before (I don't watch that show very often--maybe it's something they say all the time). Can anyone shed any light on this mystery?

The deer were both shot high in the back above the shoulder. That may have been coincidence, or it may have been to get the buck to drop quickly for the camera. Could the warning relate specifically to shooting a deer in the spine? That's the only thing that makes sense at all but I'm still not sure exactly why the position of the deer's head makes any significant difference.

[Sidetracked]

Avoiding the spine might be an option, if they want to avoid CWD.

The only other thing I can think of would be the position of the shoulders.

As a deer leans down, the butter zone is blocked a bit more by the shoulders. There is also more weight shifted forward on the front legs, causing more muscles to be tense.

I dunno... :confused: just throwing that out there.

[bluedog]

Head down or head up, what difference could it possibly make if there is a clear shot to the appropriate vitals? If you pass a good shot on a 'big' whitetail while his head is down....you may be making a BIG mistake....when that head comes up, it could be because he has sensed danger in some way (possibly you) and is about to bolt, etc. My practice is to take the FIRST good shot offered....NEVER wait on a perfect shot with a big Whitetail....take the shot if it is a good one and take it NOW!

[Kreyzhorse]

Don't shoot one with his head down is new one on me. I can't even begin to imagine why they would say that. To me, head up or down, if its a good open broadside shot, you take it.

[Sarge]

I'm just a back-asswards old country boy John, but I don't 'get it' either. I have been intentionally shooting deer through the spine at the shoulders (often with heavy handguns) for a good 25 years now and judging from what I see on hunting shows- they are having a whole lot more deer run off than I have.

[ZeroJunk]

Maybe he was anticipating some fidgetiness on the part of the hunter that would be less likely to be noticed.

Also, having hunted with dozens of different guides, they could be extremely knowledgeable or lucky to find their way back to camp.

[Art Eatman]

That's a new one on me! If I were going for a chest shot, I don't see how it would matter. If the buck were in neck-shot range, I guess I'd probably wait until his "pose" suited me. :)

However, when a deer has his head down, he's probably taken a half step. Could be that a heart/lung shot would go into the off leg (if the near leg is forward), possibly high enough to get into shoulder meat.

But if he's just lowered his head for a quick sniff of the ground and the front legs aren't in the bullet's path, Kablooie.

[taylorce1]

Most hunting shows have rules for game taken in front of the camera. Most shows will not allow the hunter to shoot a bedded animal. I imagine they wanted the head up for the camera. I imagine that it is done just to get better camera shots for the viewer.

[tyrajam]

Yeah, the only reason I can think of is they wanted the buck "posed" for the camera when the shot went off.

[10-96]

I gotta agree with the "pose" idea. If the critter has his head up and looks alert and inherits a bullet- then at least he 'appeared' to be alert enough to take whatever action he/she felt appropriate such as running or growing an opposing thumb and returning fire. Now, if it's head was down and looking all unawares- then the bunny lovers and tree huggers might stir up flak by saying the critter was ambushed. No, I don't pretend to know what goes on in them folks' heads- just felt the urge to ramble a bit. Sorry.

[ZeroJunk]

I guess I didn't even read the question correctly. From an ability to take flight stance it would make more sense to me, if there is any sense to it at all, to shoot the animal when he is less alert. Anatomically, I see no practical difference. Politically, who knows.

[Wild Bill Bucks]

Didn't see the program, but have helped set up some food plots and funnel points for some game ranchs, here in Oklahoma. I noticed that the so called guides, that were going to be guides for the hunting trips, were usually the cowboys that have worked on the ranch for a number of years.

These guys are probably trying to be good guides for the client, but most of the time, don't have a lot of real hunting experience. It is not unusual to go to one of these ranchs, and find out that you know a lot more about the game than they do.

This may be one of those times when the guide was just trying to look knowledgable for his client, and I'm sure he had a good reason, in his head ,for telling him not to shoot with the head down, but from a real hunting stand point, it really makes no difference at all.

Two years ago, while helping put up some feeders on a ranch, I heard one of the guides tell a potential client, that you always want to keep your back to the North when hunting Whitetail deer because they always seem to be moving east to west through the day. I never did figure that one out.:confused:

[Double Naught Spy]

Pose = TV Hunting Show Money Shot ... it sounds like.

[UniversalFrost]

yup, pure TV crap!

I have shot many deer (both rifle, bp and bow) and they have had their heads down and were either grazing, inspecting a rub or once when the sucker was sniffing the rear of a bedded down doe :D

they all did the same thing; they died! :p all were nice right in the vitals shots and only once did I mess up a shoulder when one kinda cringed from the muzzleloader being shot and the short delay of the sabot hitting him.

I am calling pure BS TV crap on this one.

[mikenbarb]

E-Mail the show and ask what the deal is with the head up or down thing. I cant think of any reason why either.:confused:

[Yithian]

Two reasons I can think of.
One of those everyone here hit on. Its for TV.

The other I can think of ...
When a deer puts his head down, they go into "flight" mode.
They have let their guard down and are tense, alerted to jump, toward any perceived threat.
If they hear a "click", or "pop", before the actual pill hits, they may jump the shot.
Six inches of movement is easily possible when the bullet has to travel 100 yards.

Actually, come to think of it, I shoot them with the head up as well.
But that's because I shoot them in the head, typically.
They do this often, so it is easy to pick as an opportunity.
A deer will stand perfectly still while they determine a possible threat.
I wait till they focus all their senses at a specific location.
I observe the animal any length of time before the shot, to learn how long they hold that focus.
If that focus is on me, or they have too short a 'focus time', I deny myself the shot.

I have had one failed deer hunt so far. A neck-meets-shoulder shot, and that deer had its head down in a pile of corn.
Needless to say, I will never take that shot again.
A very poor choice by me.

[EHCRain10]

Maybe the fear of the buck falling forward onto his rack and breaking tines?
just a shot in the dark, no deer experience here (YET!)

[trooper3385]

I think I saw the same show that your talking about. The show that I saw, the deer was slightly quartering towards him and had his head down. With his head down and turned a little, the horns looked like they were in the way and might be struck by the bullet. That was the only reason I could think that he told him to wait till the deer raised his head. He wanted to make sure he didn't hit the antlers with the bullet. If that wasn't the reason, I have know idea.

[JohnKSa]

I wish I'd kept the show so I could watch it again, but it's already been wiped off the DVR.

Thanks for the responses, it's been buggin' me for awhile now... :D

[MeekAndMild]

If they hear a "click", or "pop", before the actual pill hits, they may jump the shot. That sounds pretty logical. I've shot two deer at moderate ranges and had the bullet hit further aft than I'd aimed. Both of these deers were 'runners' and I had to trail them for short distances into the woods.

[W. C. Quantrill]

John, that oughta wean you from watching Jim Shockey in the first place. That boy is counterfeit to begin with. He is the same one that came out bad mouthing muzzleloaders then went to work for TC hyping their inlines. Hes a Canadian Liberal. His ethics are questionable and so is his show info. He probably hangs out with Jackie Bushman.

Many years ago, Outdoor Life magazine had an article on kill zones on a deer. They looked at the deer from front, back and side, and also quartering shots. Where to shoot for a one shot fatal drop. No one seems to know that information any more..................why? Is it the posed TV shows that are tainting our good science? Also, if you watch that garbage, have you noticed those guys committing and promoting very unsafe practices?

I like to hunt about 9AM. Sneak through the bedding areas and try to catch that big one laying down. A successful hunt is finding an Alpha buck in his bed, and put a bullet through his neck, never allowing him to get adrenaline in his blood. If that buck were facing me and had his head down, I'd put a bullet in his neck from the top. I have killed two big bucks that were buried in brush, nothing but their faces and their butts showing. Is that a lost shot? Definitely not, if you know where to drive that bullet. It demands a good accurate rifle with scope and it demands a bullet capable of penetrating several inches of bone. When nothing but a butt shot is presented, its as good as a chest shot, just drive that bullet right up the spine. A good shot will cut the tail off and drive the bullet up the base of the spine, dropping the animal grave yard dead right there. A .22 wont do that yithian:D, but I'll still hunt with ya.

[bodab]

was it b\c they were waiting for the deer to pick his head upout the corn feeder so they could see the horns ?

[JohnKSa]

I dunno, it's hard to say what they're seeing vs what the camera's seeing.

As nearly as I could tell in both cases there was a clear unobstructed shot and the ranges were not excessive--nothing that would make assessing the antlers difficult. In addition, both bucks were observed for some time before the time came to make the shot.

If it had just been once, I would have dismissed it, but since two separate guides gave the same advice, it piqued my curiosity.

In one case the deer was nearly broadside but facing slightly toward the camera. In the other situation the buck was quartering away. In both cases a spine shot (above the shoulder) was taken.

[Art Eatman]

People get told all manner of things when they're on the up-side of the learning curve, and often don't do any critical analysis. The old "I heard..." that we see so often, here at TFL.

I started deer hunting in a serious fashion in 1963. I hunted for a number of years with "old folks" who themselves began working over Bambi in the 1920s. I never, ever, heard anybody mention anything about head down or head up.

Seems to me that TV shows about hunting, and Internet sites about guns and hunting have really, really spread a bunch of hooie that just doesn't make sense. Certainly not in any "one size fits all" fashion.

Seems to me the deal is that you want a clear shot that doesn't ruin eatin'-meat. If a deer's stance and angle make for a problem, you hold off and wait for a better shot. Maybe head-down means a problem with the shot; maybe not. If not, what difference does it make?

[fisherman66]

When head is up there is usually little movement of the body. When head is down I have noticed more sway and half-steps.

It has never made any difference to me, except on neckshots. For those I only shoot when head is up, but for a body shot an inch of movement isn't going to break the shot at reasonable (read MPBR) distances. The neckshots are a little tougher due to the ~2 sec window.

I've never intentionally shot as high as you mentioned in the video. I borrowed a 30/30 once that the owner said was 2" high at 100 and it ended up being about 6" high at 100. It was still a double lung, but I always try for a triple (heart+2lungs) when I have a good broadside shot. I aim right where the elbow intersects the body or even a hair lower for a top mid-rise distance in my trajectory.

[Scorch]

When a deer puts his head down, they go into "flight" mode.
They have let their guard down and are tense, alerted to jump, toward any perceived threat.
If they hear a "click", or "pop", before the actual pill hits, they may jump the shot.
Actually, if a deer is in "flight" mode, they won't put their head down because it makes them more vulnerable. They will only lower their head if they feel safe enough to do so. They are not stupid.
If they hear a "click", it's because you made some other noise before the shot, not because the gun made noise when you shot. Bullets are supersonic, i.e. travel faster than sound. Even a deer's keen reaction time is going to be 1/10th of a second, and in that time a bullet can travel 75-100 yds (depending on initial velocity), whereas sound will only travel 35 yds in the same amount of time. If a deer moves between the time you fired and the bullet hit, it likely because they saw movement when you fired.

Even if you are shooting a muzzleloader, the bullet is typically still supersonic unless you are shooting large caliber patch and ball.

In the end, I don't know why a guide would tell anyone not to fire when the animal's head is down. I keep reading the replies hoping someone knows.

[Yithian]

I was speaking of other deer, twigs, safety's etc. Not the actual bullet.
I can't think of the proper wording other than "flight" but lets just say, they tense up bad, ready to move asap. LOL
Comfortable enough to put the head down, does not mean they are comfortable.
It's a necessity they must do to eat.