Internal and External Extractors

[Elephant_Man]

So I'm going to buy a kimber 1911 in a couple months and I have been warned not to get one with an external extractor. So I was wondering, how can you tell the difference between the two and which models have them and which dont?

[Adrian]

As I understand it, you can tell just by looking at the gun. External extractors have this long cut-out on the slide where the extractor fits, just behind the ejection port, like this Smith & Wesson (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=11101&storeId=10001&productId=14808&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=15714&isFirearm=Y) or this Dan Wesson (http://www.1911forum.com/dw_001_01.shtml). An internal extractor doesn't have that cutout, like just (http://www.fusionfirearms.com/images/HUNTER%2070-2.jpg) about (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/handguns/professional/large/06.jpg) every (http://www.novaksights.com/images/GUNS/wayne's%20collection/1914sf4500041.jpg) other (http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/detail.aspx?ID=161) 1911 (http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/eclipse/eclipse_custom_II/). (Sorry for the gun-porn; I'm oggling things I can't have tonight)

I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with the external-extractor 1911; a buddy of mine has an S&W 1911 with round count around 5000 and has had no problems at all. Kimbers' just didn't turn out quite right or something.

[dave421]

Adrian's "just didn't have it right" statement is pretty accurate from what I've seen. A Kimber with an EE seems to be a hit or miss situation. A lot of people have them and have 0 issues. A lot of other people have them and have constant issues. Being the internet, it's doubtful that the problem is as bad as it's made out to be but most people do tend to lean toward the Kimbers with an internal extractor. S&W and others have EEs that are reliable. It's assumed that the problem with the Kimber arises from the overal length which is much shorter than any of the competition's.

[Moe Howard]

A huge chunk of the Kimber bashing in gun forums stems from the models with external extractors. I know a few guys that bought Kimbers with external extractors and when they sent the slide in to Kimber they just sent them a new slide with the old internal extractor.

[redrick]

I have a Kimber Compact ll Stainless 4" barrel with the external extractor . It has never had a problem . My brother has a Kimber Eclipse Ultra 3" barrel with the internal extractor , every time it ejects a spent round it hits you in the head . It has done this from day 1 . I am not saying one is better than the other , you could have a problem with either one . Kimber doesn't have a good enough warranty for me to buy another one of there pistols . I do like there selections you have to choose from though .

[Elephant_Man]

Thanks guys. That definitely cleared it up for me. Now as far as the internal and external extractors go, what is the difference in the functionality? Or how are they different in the way they work?

[RsqVet]

Both do the same thing... pundits aside never buy a Kimber with an external, it may be someone's problem gun, and re-sale value is crud, I have seen shops refuse to buy or take them in trade.

The only downside to an internal extractor is it may need to "tuned", it is not always a drop in replacement part where the external ones offten are.

The internal is harder for dirt form the outside to get into but may be a little harder to clean

[Technosavant]

Now as far as the internal and external extractors go, what is the difference in the functionality? Or how are they different in the way they work?

Internal extractor: relies on tension of the extractor itself to function. It can be improperly tensioned, which can lead to poor extraction or poor feeding. It is one part, which is simpler. It is also enclosed, so it isn't likely to fall apart (assuming quality metallurgy). You do have to periodically clean out the tunnel in the slide, but that's not too hard (Q tip time).

External extractor: relies on a spring to provide tension. More parts, more chance for failure, but so long as everything was designed right and holds together, it can't possibly be tuned poorly (the spring does all the work). It is also non-standard 1911, so replacement parts can be harder to come by.

For my money, I don't let it bother me either way. Both my 1911s have internal extractors, but I didn't choose them for that feature. So long it is done right, it will function, and there are those who do it quite well. You could say that the external design is more "modern," since pretty much every current autopistol design uses an external extractor, but so long as the spent case is yanked from the chamber and tossed from the gun, it is much ado about nothing. What matters is the function.

[dgludwig]

So long it is done right,

In terms of which company is doing it (external extractors) right, Smith&Wesson is the best example I know. Their "Third Generation"pistols and their line of 1911 style pistols all have external extractors and few people have experienced difficulties with the extractor. As others have noted, it's not so much a question of which system (internal vs external) is best as it is a matter of good design and the proper execution of same.

[BigJimP]

I have a Kimber Gold Combat stainless II .45 acp with an external extractor and it's never been a problem - but in general, I do like the Internal Extractor. The gold combat stainless II model is out of their custom shop - and its a decent gun for the money - but not a great gun. The Raptor and Gold Combat models out of the custom shop today all have internal extractors unless you find one that has been in inventory for awhile.

When you go to the shop and look at the guns it'll be really apparent which guns have the External extractors and which ones are Internal. In general, it takes a more qualified person to install the Internal extractors and fit them properly vs installing the external extractors with a spring - and some companies have been more sucessful with them than others. Production guns like the Kimber, even out of their custom shop, get a limited amount of attention vs a more custom shop like Wilson Combat, Ed Brown, Les Baer, etc. but you will pay more for all of those guns too.

[SimpleIsGood229]

Internal extractors are easier to replace and are not manufacturer-specific. Just food for thought. :)