PDA

View Full Version : 45/70 shopping


Gulland
March 19, 2008, 08:07 PM
I'm intrigued with the 45/70. I don't know what it is about that old, long, fat cartridge, but I intend to make it my next rifle purchase. It'll be in the Marlin octagon barrel Cowboy package, and will be used primarily for Wisconsin whitetails, and predator control around my farm.

The cartridge is a bit overkill for coons in the chicken yard, I realize, but I had an old timer tell me about a load he used with 16 grains of Unique and a sheet of toilet paper for wadding. He described it as "quiet, slow, and hit's 'em like a fryin' pan."

Does anyone have experience in 'loading down' a 45/70 to that level?

I know there are far better calibers for barnyard use, and I have several, but I'd really like to develop a good load for that gun and have it be the one I keep by the door for such needs.

Gulland

Webleymkv
March 19, 2008, 08:36 PM
If you look at the starting "Trapdoor Springfield" loads with 300grn bullets in you loading manual, you'll see that they're only going 1300-1400fps. That's basically a heavy .44 Magnum and I find it quite pleasant in my Guide Gun.

Ruger4570
March 19, 2008, 09:52 PM
You can probably tell from my name, I like the 45-70. It actually can be loaded "real slow" and in a Ruger,, "real fast". Ya, I suppose it is a bit of overkill for the game you mention, but, the object is to kill them. So why do people talk about "OVERKILL" when killing it the goal? I mean, you ain't talking about a tactical nuclear bomb now are you. Course, that would kill then no more dead than the 45-70.
Use the gun that gives you pleasure and forget about getting permission from everybody else.

Magnum Wheel Man
March 20, 2008, 06:46 AM
I also have several 45-70's... basically I love alot of the "old rifle cartridges"

agree look at any of the old trapdoor springfeld loads... but be carefull of loading any really light loads, lighter than listed in the manuals, where the case is not atleast marginally full of powder, to eliminate the possiblity of miss fires, hang fires, & detonation... but those "trapdoor" loads are very easy on the shooter...

... & the cartridge isn't as bad as alot of people think... factory loads ( which are pretty light most of the time ), are easy enough to shoot out of my single shot Contender pistol, & are much much easier on the shooter than a typical shotgun slug, out of one of the rifles... of course you can load them up to nearly 458 mag power, but somewhere between the lightest recommended loads & the factory loadings, they are very pleasant to shoot...

TABING
March 20, 2008, 08:04 AM
The Marlin cowboy is a beautiful rifle, but for hunting, I'd consider the 22 inch barrel Classic 1995, or one of the guide guns. the cowboy 26 inch barrel is a little unwieldy in heavy cover.

I have both the classic and a SS guide gun. If I were to choose just one, the guide gun would be it, especially for hunting.

Gulland
March 20, 2008, 09:19 AM
I appreciate the good advice. 'Loading down' is not usually what one considers doing in handloading, but apparently, it'll work just fine in the 45/70. It's good to know that the cartridge won't be a punishing round to shoot at those levels. Comparing the slow 45/70 load to a 44 mag is just what I was looking for. I have considered a 44 mag and a 45 Colt for this application, but the 45/70 adds the upper limits to the gun that the others can't touch.

The 'overkill' I refer to is that a 22LR will dispatch a marauding coon. Adding 300 grains of lead and a handful of powder to that party seems a bit wasteful is all. I'm a firm believer in "as dead as possible," and have delivered many lobotomies with my Model 39. As I said, I want this gun to be the one that lives by the door to take care of all 4 legged predator issues. As an added bonus, the frequent handling should make the rifle much more natural to use.

I know it'll be a little unwieldy in the woods, but I think I'll stay with the longer barrel. It's other use will be for shooting with the local club. They have a 200 yard iron sight shoot every month, and with a tang sight, the extra sight radius will be nice.

Thanks again for you insight into the 45/70

Gulland

Umber
March 20, 2008, 09:36 AM
Lots of good info on low power 45/70 loads here.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Umber

T.A.Sharps
March 20, 2008, 04:19 PM
I would post your question on the reloading forum, they would know better if they don't read this much. Personlly I would think it a little expensive to kill pests with a 45/70, but it would be fun, if I could I would.

I own the Marlin 45/70 CB (26" Octagon Barrel). You will be very happy with it.

I put factory Hornady LeveRevolution 325gr rounds in it, I got a .43" group at 100yrds, iron sights. Thats smaller than the bullets .458 diameter.

OPC
March 20, 2008, 05:59 PM
I found a load out of an old Lyman manual:

405 gr lead cast bullet
IMR 4227 24.5gr
5/8-inch square 1/4" cotton batting (polywad) to hold the powder up against the primer flash hole.
vel ~1350fps

Very nice to shoot, decent accuracy out of my 1885 Hi-Wall (1.5 MOA), tres cool.

One caution, it is a little sensitive to crimp & seating depth. Experiment to find the right match.

45reloader
March 20, 2008, 06:03 PM
How hard does a 45 70 kick?

The same or more then a 12ga 3in slug?

I never had the chance to fire one.

OPC
March 20, 2008, 06:30 PM
It really does depend on the load and rifle (wieght in particular). Sorry I don't have numbers for a 3" slug, but...

Assuming they both wiegh the same, then:

Cal...........Firearm ....... bullet/shot.... Muzzle Velocity .... Recoil (ft-lbs)
.45-70........7.5#................405gr...............1350..................18.6 (load I posted above)
.45-70........7.5#................405gr...............1800..................43 (Buffalo Bore .45-70 Magnum)
12ga..........7.5#..............1-1/8oz..............1200................. 23 (from Chuck Hawks' table)

The heavier the firearm, the lower the recoil, but not the biggest contributor. Personally, I am comfortable shooting up to 15ft-lbs all day long, 15-25 I can take for a while, 25 & above just hurts and I use a shoulder pad.

Pathfinder45
March 20, 2008, 07:01 PM
Back in the mid-70's I got turned loose with an H&R reproduction 1873 Trapdoor Springfield carbine and a few boxes of 405 grain factory loads. To my surprise it was quite pleasant to shoot. I didn't think it was any more recoil than my .270, if that. But it was years ago when I was young and everything was fun.

Gulland
March 20, 2008, 08:22 PM
T. A. Sharps, It is a bit expensive to shoot relative to a lighter cartridge, but I cast and handload, so it minimizes the cost as much as possible. Your positive experience with that gun makes me want to get one tomorrow; .43" groups are well within what I consider 'acceptable'. (tongue is in cheek) I have heard nothing but good things about LeveRevolution ammo. Too bad I have to wait until Saturday! I've never owned a 45/70, and can't wait to get to know one well.

Thanks again for the load recommendations. I knew there would be some good low velocity loads in older manuals.

OPC, I'll try that load soon. It sounds like the load my friend recommended using toilet paper as wadding.

This is going to be a lot of fun!

garryc
March 20, 2008, 09:56 PM
16 grains of Unique and a sheet of toilet paper for wadding.

I've done that. I used it just stuffed in. I also used it wetted and packed in an empty casing then pushed out and allowed to dry. Done it both dry and lubed. It works ok. Only problem is tht it's burning when it comes out and I started a small grass fire with it.

SLOMountaineer
March 20, 2008, 10:43 PM
My Marlin 1895S is my favorite.

Shooting at a target 300-400 yards away you hear the crack of the rifle and feel the recoil......one.....two.....three....whuuuump! as it thuds into the hillside. Not too many sounds cooler. :)

Edward429451
March 20, 2008, 10:57 PM
My subjective opinion of felt recoil with my 1895G is the cowboy level loads (1200-1300fps) feel like shooting light skeet loads from a 12 ga., and 405 gr bullets at 1400-1600fps feel like shooting 12 ga 2 3/4" slugs, and above 1600fps feels more like 3" slugs. It's not as bad as you'd think until you sit down at a bench with one.

freakshow10mm
March 20, 2008, 11:07 PM
The 45/70 is very versitile. Mousefart loads like 12.5gr Trailboss with a 405gr FNSP are great for small game. You can run it as hard as you want. I shoot loads from the one above to full snort jacketed loads that generate 4000fpe from my Guide Gun. That load lifts the gun a foot and a half off the bench.

Factory ammo by Remy, Win, and Fed are downloaded quite a bit, due to the older trapdoor guns still around. a 405gr FN at 1330fps will take down anything in NA, despite what naysayers say. That's the load that gave the 45/70 its reputation on game.

Mild to wild, it will do the job. I've shot the snot out of my Guide Gun and it begs for more.

somerled
March 20, 2008, 11:12 PM
I used to load 405 grain cast-lead FPs with 30.0 grains of IMR-4198 for an old 1886 Winchester. It would produce around 1,350 fps. I also used Reloder 7.

Alliant shows a cowboy action load of 11 grains of Unique with a 405 grain LaserCast FP. That produces 1000 fps in a 24-inch barrel.

Hodgdon lists some very mild loads using Trail Boss under the Trapdoors section.

The ole .45-70 can become addictive. I have a Shiloh Sharps as well and load 500-grain bullets with Goex Black powder.

Old Time Hunter
March 21, 2008, 11:26 AM
First off, find an original Springfield Trapdoor w/good bore, or even a Pedersoli replica.

Second, load 28.5 grains of H4198 behind a .459 sized 405 grain LFN or RFN.

Third, get any critter that Wisconsin allows, including Coyotes or Whitetails.

Don't need anything more. It would be nice to use a '86 Winchester...but that Trapdoor is more traditional. By the way, most places have 'cowboy' loads for the .45-70 if you do not want to load. They'll say 'safe for Trapdoor pressures' right on the box.

Kreyzhorse
March 21, 2008, 03:33 PM
"real slow" and in a Ruger,, "real fast"

That's the great thing about this old cartrigde. There a plenty of cowboy action "real slow" rounds out there. There are moderate hunting rounds by Winchester and Remingtion. There are "real fast" rounds that puts the old rifle in the .458 Winchester realm (dislaimer: only modern firearms can handle the hotter loadings).

To me, its a very versatile, albeit short range, rifle. I don't think I'd take a hunting shot with it over 150 yards. I own a Ruger No. 1 and it's a joy to shoot. Recoil with moderate rounds is pretty mild and might fall into the 30.06 or 7mm Rem Mag group.

jlchucker
March 23, 2008, 10:58 AM
Work up an accurate cast bullet load that you like and are comfortable shooting, then use it for everything. It doesn't need to be max, or zippy, just accurate at the distances you will be shooting. I used to load for my Marlin 1895S with loads approaching max according to the manuals, and plinked with them from a bench at my range. There once were animals roaming here in Vermont that could withstand a first-round hit from those loads, but not since the Jurrassic. Lately, I've backed off to something more modest. Ruger4570 makes some good points. Dead is dead. Not too many 45-70 loads, regardless of velocity, are going to bounce off whatever living thing you shoot these days, so in the end, it would come down to accuracy and comfort of shooting.

Gulland
March 23, 2008, 06:57 PM
I really appreciate all the replies. I handled the 22" Marlin this weekend, and now need to decide if I really need the extra length of the Cowboy, and that really nice octagon barrel.

I also shot a custom 45/110 side by side. WOW!

I love the versatility of the caliber, and that was my main concern. It looks like it loads down nicely, and can be custom loaded to perform almost any task. I'll have one in a few weeks and let you all know which one was chosen.

Gulland

freakshow10mm
March 23, 2008, 08:23 PM
The 45/70 is very versitile, that's why it's popular and has stood the test of time (developed in 1873 same time as the 45 Colt).

ssgtwaldo
June 4, 2008, 01:14 AM
I have a Ruger#3 in 45-70. I shortened the barrel and installed one of my own muzzle brakes. The sight is an Aim-Point. My loads in this lovely runs the gauntlet from 405gr LFP @ 1300 fps to a 350gr JFP @ 2150 fps. Both are pleasant to shoot with the brake. The 350 gr with out the brake is brutal! No other word for it. The 405 gr without the brake is nice to shoot.

I love this old war horse. IMO you couldn't go wrong with one!:D

grampi
June 4, 2008, 12:36 PM
What is 45/70 ammo selling for these days, about $5 a round?

freakshow10mm
June 4, 2008, 12:44 PM
$100 for 20rds? Umm, no. Try $1-2/rd tops.

grampi
June 4, 2008, 01:35 PM
"How hard does a 45 70 kick?"

My Dad's had about as much recoil as a 410 shotgun, but then again it weighed 11 lbs.

Dezynco
June 4, 2008, 04:21 PM
I load mine with 65 grains GoEx 2Fg black powder and 500 grain lead bullets. Doesn't kick too bad and will deliver 1"groups at 100 yards with my "Sharps" rifle and peep sights.

Webleymkv
June 4, 2008, 06:58 PM
What is 45/70 ammo selling for these days, about $5 a round?

$100 for 20rds? Umm, no. Try $1-2/rd tops.


Fortunately, due to the large straight-walled case and low pressures, the 45-70 is very easy to reload and the brass lasts a very long time. Use lead bullets in your handloads and the 45-70 can be quite affordable to shoot.